I just started playing this with some friends who invited me to a crusade having only played Battletech and Flames of War prior. Am I retarded or is 40k really this bad? I was told it was simple, but games still take about as long as Battletech to complete, and it feels like I'm in this autistic hell where I must read from three different pdfs like a law textbook to outcompete the other player's superpowers that they need to activate under incredibly specific circumstances each turn. It's like the worst parts of D&D. I think what offends me most is the scenarios. It's just variations of holding video game circles on a board like call of duty. There's no narrative. It feels like I'm playing a korean MOBA. To be fair, I am playing this mostly on tabletop sim, but how is this the gold standard of wargames? Was it better in the 80s? I've won more than I've lost, so I'd like to think I'm not just assmad. My friends have spent hundreds on armies for this shit and I do not get it.
>>96612527>Am I retarded or is 40k really this bad?no you're not retarded, the current edition is considered one of the worst by a very large portion of the fanbase. The company writes 40k like it is a video game and a lot of the newer players come from a background of competitive video games and treat it as such.>I think what offends me most is the scenariosyeah they suck ass, you basically need to make your own in order to have fun in the current edition, all the official scenarios are reskinned slop for tournament fags>how is this the gold standard of wargames?it isn't, it's the entry level babies first wargame like D&D is to rpgs. Everyone invested in the wargaming hobby knows this.>Was it better in the 80s?80s-late 2000s was the golden era of Warhammer as a whole. Once the 2010s rolled around it all went downhill from there.>My friends have spent hundreds on armies for this shit and I do not get it.The majority of 40k fans are just model hobbyists, the game is more or less an excuse and structured way for people to justify buying a bunch of toys. I know you already know the answer to most of these and wanted to make a bait thread but here's your serious reply
>>96612559>The company writes 40k like it is a video gameI grew up playing with one of the guys who now designs the game and that makes sense. He's a retard fake nerd normie video gamer who has never really understood 40k but managed to climb the corporate ladder.
>>96612527Flames of war 4th really? That game is just as shit with 0 narrative because the game is full of retarded rules made for tournament play especially when it comes to trying to recreate the eastern front thanks to its devs butthurt hatred of soviets.But like >>96612559 said 40k 10th sucks dick and is designed like a videogame, the core rules literally contain 1 mission exactly and you need to buy cardpacks for "matched" play AKA tournament faggotry or crusade rulebooks for extended narrative campaigns for more mission types but its like an extra layer of annoying bookkeeping instead of just 1 off battle types. Army rulebooks get point changes and balance changes nonstop and get outdated within a week.FYI this is what you need to bring if your bringing all paper stuff with 0 digital crap involved because of the constant amount of changes thanks to no balance testing or proof reading.Main rulebookArmy rulebookPrinted FAQ sheetPrinted points update sheetPrinted balance update sheet
I'll let this picture speak for itself.
>>96612559Thanks for the reply but this actually wasn't bait. I'm just kind of floored after spending 6 hours on one of the worst scenarios I have ever played. I'm being told by my group that I normally play good shit with that this is amazing and it feels like I'm in the twilight zone. It's particularly weird because it's a group I managed to get away from D&D into better RPGs>>96612641Anecdotally my Flames of war experience has been pretty good with western front scenarios that are done in under two hours
I think GW stuff is like Apple stuff. The time to buy is when stuff from one or two editions ago is on clearance. Generally speaking I like 2nd which has its quirks but is focussed on fun. Other people swear by 4th. I know one guy who was perfectly happy with 9th and played it til he literally passed away (he was an old historical gamer who did 40k for fun). He was like I have all these unit cards and some necrons and ultramarines, fuck it
>>96612527It's the gold standard of model sales technique, not of gaming. It's a shit game with a lot of 'sunk cost' idiots trying to make the most of their expensive collections before they have to dump them (and buy more) when the next edition drops.
>>96612693Nobody does. This won't find it at a tournament or a local game store.
>>96612527My issue with other games is I have zero interest in their world building and lore it's boring autistic shit. 40k is fun autistic shit. I am not going to spend 1200 dollars and a few hundred painting on an army I have no interest in.
>>96612527>Like a MOBA+1, hit the mark here>different variants of "hold the circle"Yeah, but there's some card-missions that happen on good draws when you need them.>reading from 3 booksOr if your group is ok with it, just use WAHApedia, its free and updated frequently at better rates than nu-'free'40k official website. It's best to download the pages in case it goes down for an update(like I said, frequently updated).
tournamentfags need to be harassed IRL until they fuck off forever.
>>96612527Me and my friends play 8th ed and it's the same shit. The MOBA comparison is so on the mark. I fucking hate the stratagem focus and moba ability spam. On top of the morale and cover rules being shit. I just fucking hate how many rerolls the game has and the objectives are just hold boring circle. Command point rerolls are okay though.
>>966128034th is the GOAT, it's the edition where they figured out how to streamline the game to the point where battles with fairly large model counts run smoothly but with most of the old customisation and flavour still present across most of the armies.
>>96612527The ideal is to play with 40k models, but use alternative rulesets.
>>96613785Like I said, I prefer second quite resolutely because it's flavourful and a little random. The point is though, seldom is the latest and greatest actually what you want in many things. Sometimes something you can buy new old stock that people aren't excited about but had most of its bugs ironed out. Would rather play Epic for a really big game.
>get the opportunity to play FREE scrims with friends>turn it downLucky, I have to pay my favorite T-sport professional to have scrims with me. You're learning a lot bud! Wargames have always been a sort of lame boomer thing, kind of like golf. What GW is doing is turning it into Football! Now it's a proper competition with an emphasis on fairness, sportsmanship and technical skill. It's in the best state its ever been in.
>>96612527What you need is a 40k built around narrative play instead of it being an afterthought
In an effort to make the game more balanced and "streamlined", GW removed everything that makes armies unique and took away all the rules that made the game have tactical depth and variety. Every board is now filled with nothing but L-shaped ruins and every army plays like either Space Marines or Imperial Guard. They release a new edition every 3 years so they can sell another launch box and set of codexes. They do a balance patch every 3 months to keep the tournament players buying models. While I can see GW's model kits getting better every year, they clearly do not prioritize the quality of their game.
>>96614874That’s what they’re selling this crusade as to me. Every time I run into a retarded situation my friends say “The scenario isn’t supposed to be balanced, it’s thematic” but there’s approximately zero story or narrative choice being made. The closest we have gotten is naming some of the leaders, but the game still plays like a retarded esport thing where you try and stack 20 niche abilities together to hold a flag, bitching about how your opponent’s base is .01 inches too far away or something.
96612527Flames of war, warhammer 40k (except 4th ed maybe) bolt action and battletech (except override fanmade rules) are terrible games, I get it, those are popular and all but you honestly can't go worse than that in the wargaming world.
>>96615111What do you play?
>>96612527Well no kidding you dont like it, you're coming from Battletech, and actual wargame, to a board game like 10th ed 40k
>>96615062Yeah, crusade is shitty as fuck in 10th (like it was in 9th)
>>96615127Mordheim, mordheim mods for 40k, infinity (but it has become worse since N3), a bit of battletech override, 40k 4th ed exclusively, Battlegroup (excellent ww2 15mm), chain of command, epic Armageddon, epic 2nd ed mixed with legions imperialis, warmaster, a bit of battlefleet gothic, a bit of aeronautica imperialis first edition, a good ammount of current Kill team (competitive, not new player friendly, thematic but not in the classic way, if your table scenary is not properly placed the game gets super unbalanced, bound to get spoiled by GW eventually, good in a very weird way) Tried one page rules, it still has everything wrong with 40k like no toughness stat or vehicle armour and no scattering or templates. Battletech classic is a museum piece, I have played it quite a bit, it can be enjoyable in some ways but still a terrible game for today standards even if unique. Flames and bolt are as historical as a wizard with a laser machinegun. The best wargames are dead ones with fan support or the ones made by companies who don't make much money with models so their main product is the rule set and it fails if it's not good or has bad corporative practices.
>>96615062If you want the peak of 40k narrative scenarios/campaigns, check out the Imperial Armour book series, should be easy enough to find PDFs around here. If you can convince your group to play the Badab War, Vraks or Taros you'll have a great time
>>96615275Good taste my nigga
>>96615293Agree, I have played the first edition taros campaign and it was great. We will play the tyranid one soon. The second edition of this books has generic scenarios with open lists that are waaaaaaay less charming, stick with the first ed even if you change the premade lists.
>>96615293Fuck marvelhammer
>>96612803>happy with 9th and played it til he literally passed awaySee, folks.9th edition KILLS
>>96615532The stratagem lists give him a damn heart attack
>>966137853rd for me. 4th edition I just fought nothing but skimmers and it soured me hard on the edition.
>>96615402Noice, I'm looking to play the Anphelion Project myself at some point, I intend to print the Anphelion base too Definitely agreed on the second editions, especially since the 2nd edition of Vraks is apparently missing most of the third book's narrative
>>96615111What's terrible about Battletech?
>>96616223Too clunky and full of flavorful rules to have a proper T-sports scene
>worst ruleset in wargaming>shitty boring"setting" carried by firstborn/heresy era space marines>Aliens are silly lego zergs and silly green skeleton robots40k will always be shit
>>96616223At first glance it has many possible cool interactions like damaging the life support of a mech, pushing it in the water and drowning the pilot. In practice it almost always plays the same everytime, just like all the melee options many options but everyone ends up kicking because its the optimal one. The game has super crazy cool rules for combined arms, in practice it crumbles with all the acumulated rules and charts as soon as you put infantry tanks and helicopters on the table. I have played tournaments full of super veteran old farts who only play battletech, and you know what most of them were unable to finish a 2vs2 game in 2h.It's a fucking mess it can be fun but the people who is unable to see the bad parts is delusional and nostalgic.
>>96616591sounds like an overtly specific (you) problem for saying nobody invited you to a game.
>>96616591The accumulation of charts and poor implementation of combined arms is a fair point. I love the game and setting dearly and have had a far better time with it than 40k, but if there’s any rules changes I want, I would want them to review those.
>>96615275>The best wargames are dead ones with fan supportYou're goddamn right.t. Warzone player
>>96615379>CoC2So what's the verdict? Better or worse than 1?
>>96612527Daily reminder there are literal discord tranny shills on this board trying to create discontent and demoralize GW fans.
>>96617256>correct on all points
>>96617266Hello discord tranny. Has your axe wound healed yet?
>>96617296
>>96617256The only thing wrong with this list is the drama tuber shit.
>>96617296(for real though, I appreciate your work. This whole double-agent, reverse-psychology act is great.)
>>96617005NTA but I always thought that Battletech could benefit from a kind of 'Beta Strike' ruleset that simplifies and streamlines things without completely erasing most of the Battletech flavour the way that Alpha Strike does.
>>96617256>Average Infinity player
>>96617620That appears to be something they’re working on for combined arms at least. >>96617256I assure you I am not involved in whatever schizophrenic shit is happening here. I’m a straight man who is rather saddened by the experience I’ve had with a game that my friends have been hyping up
>>96617720>I assure you I am not involved Why would I believe you when you can't even by truthful about your own gender, troon. Instead you force and browbeat normal people into believing your trans propaganda nonsense
>>96618124>sees other anons using "troon" as an insult>"Hey, I'll start saying that too! Then I'll fit in!">unaware that it wont work in this case; totally oblivious to context and social dynamics
>>96617256Fake and Gay. But even if its real, what is the end goal ? what would someone gain from this?
>>96612559I like the game, and I play it every Saturday. Nothing you wrote here is a lie.
>>96612693Honestly, my autism finds this comfy.
>>96619272As I said, I offer the image with no opinion on my part.How do you feel about the structures not matching the street plan of the mat?
>>96617005>>96617620Try battletech override it's a fan made mix of rules made by "dead from above" It strikes a very decent middle ground between classic and alpha and it's great to play 8 mechs or vehicles per side.
is there any hope that 40k could go back to its golden days in terms of rules?
>>96619725No. Not without killing every single person at GW HQ, every internet GW social media personality, and eliminating all publicly held stock shares of the company. The game would require a complete reset in almost every possible way, and neither the company itself nor the shareholders would ever allow that to happen.
>>96618359It's a fetish
>>96619725Horus Heresy 2.0 was as good as it gets in terms of rules, but sadly with 3.0 they've started going down the same road that got us to where 40k is now with the introduction of the damage stat and wounds inflation
>>96620368Horus heresy is gay space marine wanks inspired by middle 40k, by definition is worse than 3rd/4th ed 40k
>>96620368>the introduction of the damage stat and wounds inflationThat was already in 2.0 with the Brutal (2) rule though.
>>96617058Far better in my opinion>The addition of weaker CoC Point abilities makes the game a bit more reactive>There are more CoC points in general meaning you will have more tools for when your opponent gets a double phase>Scenarios were rewritten to avoid stuff like a single motocycle immediately winning a Probe mission before you can react>Close Combat values were changed so it can be used as a tactical tool for a larger section instead of pure mutually assured destruction for both sides>Vehicles got lots of clarifications and some streamliningLots of other little tweaks here and there but it really does just feel like a general improvement across the board
>>96619725Just play Custom40k
>>96616591>It's a fucking mess it can be fun but the people who is unable to see the bad parts is delusional and nostalgic.1) It's not as bad as GW rulesets2) It's still much cheaper
>>96616591>most of them were unable to finish a 2vs2 game in 2hYou say that like it's a bad thing.There's not many better ways to spend Saturday than have 3 mates over, some beer and pretzels on the table and have nice 30k BV per side 2vs2 CBT. Big robots go boom!
>>96614824> fairness> sportsmanshipPosts Manny from glasshammer who has intentionally submarined tournaments and is a cunt
>>96620846Sounds great, would love to try it. Unfortunately I'm stuck with with people who don't actually care about wargames, just Warhammer.
>>96623053I was too, but I just made both forces and collected all the terrain and what not myself and run games for people when they're interested. If you got 15mm it'll be economical money, storage and time wise. It also looks better for platoon level stuff on a 6x4, but that's only my personal taste.
>>96623162Will try that, but goddamn, it wouldn't be the first time I have to push the guys outside of their comfort zone. If it wasn't for me we'd still be playing 10th Edition.
>>966215072 mechs vs 2 mechs, the actual minimal viable game in battletech, no crazy units like hovercrafts, helicopters, aircraft, drone bombs, alien dragon raiders, jetpack infantry, tunnel infantry, submarines, ships, space ships. Nothing, just 2 unimaginative robots fighting 2 other unimaginative robots, both sides playing exactly the same abusing the same old game exploits during 2 full hours by veteran players and even then they were unable to finish the game. It's ok to love something but it's healthy to understand why something you love it's actually rubish. I do enjoy the game, but dude it's pure undestiled rubish love it or hate it.
>>96621353This is absolutely true, and great positives, still not a great game and definitely not for everyone.
