How would you fix Angron's lore?
>>96616460by killing him and every other primarch in 40k
>>96616472This, re-write the fluff so that ALL THE FUCKING PRIMARCHS DIE DURING THE HERESY WITHOUT ANY AMBIGUITY WHATSOEVER
I'd write three mutually contradictory versions of it and use elements from each in new "modern" fluff. But yeah also kill them off.
>>96616476>>96616892
>>96616460give him personality and motivation other than RAWRGHAUUFHBTR
>>96616460Demon Angrons problem is that he is a one note character that could be replaced with literally any generic bloodthirster and absolutely nothing would change. Seriously. Take any Angron appereance after Terra and insert Skarbrand or some generic no name greater demon of Khorne and tell me what would be different, other than "uuuhhh, powerlevel."
You "fix" him by acknowledging how fucked-up it is what the Emperor did to him
>>96616460Angron was doomed ever since the Emperor was written as a complete retard who wouldn't help him and his comrades even though he helped the other primarchs with their bullshit
>>96616460Make him a patron god of violent rebellions, slaves and gladiators. During the great crusade he would only have one modus operandi; attacking planets that had a aristocracy or despotic system that had any form of slaves. These slaves would be recruited into the legion, and by the heresy he would view all planets where slaves and laborers worked for the mechanicus or imperium as despotic. He would basically be a ideological foil to Corvus Corax where he would believe in liberty and freedom, but where Corvus promoted and protected the weak, Angron expected the strong to fight for it first. Let the worthy fight and the weak die. It'd also explain why he rarely appears as he only appears during great upheavals where cultists of khorne and rebelling renegade guard go against their opressors. Angron is the reason Khorne began to adopt a honorable warrior aspect. Kharn would be ousted for seeing the weak as only worthy as sleaking blades and their flesh being used as leather for handles.
Angron went crazy during his last stand and butchered his slave army, then got killed by the Nucerian army. Big E resurrected him and wiped his memory, hence why he doesn't have that weird aura the other Primarchs have. There's my attempt.
>>96617177>butchered his slave armygay
>>96616460For one, I wouldn't make him a bitch of basic fucking humans. You're telling me that they had a Primarch locked up in a roman-style colosseum for years? If only there was some faction that loved collecting weirdos to fight in arenas that could plausibly contain a Primarch for extended periods of time. Fuck's sake, they already have the Eldar hit squad go after him straight out of the pod. Just make it a Dark Eldar press gang instead and have his backstory be a daring escape from Commorragh only for him to become a different slave when he meets the Emperor.
>>96616472fibby bibby
>>96616472>>96616476First Post and Second Post Best Posts./thread
>>96616460Get rid of the Emperor abandoning his friends thing and instead just make his distrust of authority and anger issues be the cause of his later turn against the Emperor
>>96617033he should get the occasional moment of lucidity after an extremely bloody battle where you can get the typical massive amounts of regret after realizing what he became
>>96616460I don't see much needing to be fixed. He's a tragic character, but he chose to be a slave to his anger and spite. His fate was thematically appropriate.
>>96617409Abandoning his friends makes sense considering that they were all frothing berserkers who would have needed to be put down if they didn't die in battle. Angron's only real gripe with the Emperor was that he wanted to die with his comrades, and Big E said no.
>>96616460Emperor saves his slave buddies and removes the butcher’s nails
>>96616460i would make him say the catchphrase "IT'S ANGRIN TIME" just before he goes into battle
>>96616460He was a competent general before going full chaos. Done.
>>96616460Make it so the Emperor finds him after the slave rebellion. The slave rebellion didn't work and all of his buddies got slaughtered in front of him, and he was only kept half alive to make an example of him. After a couple months of being mocked and tortured he learns to hate authority even more than he already did and also hates feeling weak and powerless. Khorne is already whispering sweat nothings to him at this point but then the emperor comes and curbstomps his captors. Emperor removes the nails but is a harsh authority figure that demands constant respect, which slowly pushes Angron to Horus' side. Focus more on Khornes "honorable combat" side at first but slowly have him embrace the bloodshed. Either that or just continue to have him be a one trick pony because his name is "Angron" for fucks sake.
The nails are biting.
>>96617643Honestly, I don't think you need to deliberately make the Emperor into a dick.Horus could easily get a de-nailed Angron onto his side by stoking the same dissatisfaction that Horus himself felt at the Imperium: the gains of warriors being turned over to bureaucrats who hadn't fought for it. It would be the easiest thing for Horus to use his charisma to turn Angron, showing the worst aspects of the new Imperial order to show that the ultimate result of the Great Crusade under the Emperor would be every world and every star ruled by tyrants the likes of which enslaved Angron. The Emperor's cold, big picture pragmatism to reach his endgame in the finite time allotted to him would cause the most rational, logical moves seem extremely callous even though they were done without malice, but to the eyes of the Primarchs, without even the Sigilite's insights, they would surely seem monstrous. No need to go all ADB and character assassinate the Emperor because of daddy issues.
>>96617228IIRC he was fairly gentle and more or less a child when they caught him initially and by the time he'd grown up he mostly went along with it out of despair and a sense of kinship with the other slaves. They also had DAoT tech keeping him subdued.That said, Drukhari slave pits would have been way cooler and the nails are very much their kind of thing.
>>96617228...Shit, I think you've done it, anon. Making it deldar instead would've been so much better, or at least proto-deldar if my timeline's right.
>>96617177It's already implied in a few places that that might have already been the case anyway (as in, he was killing his own allies and the Emperor lied to him because the truth would destroy him), along with his allies being Khorne-corrupted.
>>96616472Fpbp
>>96617088>88Khorne agrees with this post
>>96617643Technically Angron already staged a full scale slave revolution a long time before Big E finds him and lost. It was him losing in his grand uprising against the lords of Nuceria that got him the punishment of the Butcher's Nails for him and all his closest brothers in arms. Also, the way the situation is currently presented is much stronger fuel for Angron's contempt because the Emperor doesn't even attack Nuceria, it bends the knee instantly and so, like all other worlds that enter Compliance, the Emperor inducted it into the fold without a single bolt shell fired and moved on with the Great Crusade. The rulers of Nuceria were given tacit permission to continue being complete and utter bastards so long as they met his tithes, like all other planets that chose diplomacy. Angron knew when the Emperor didn't purge Nuceria's overlords that he was all talk, the Imperial Truth about liberating mankind was bullshit, the Emperor wasn't doing any of this to free people but to enslave them himself, and he didn't give a fuck how many innocent commoners had to suffer for his Imperium to be built.
>>96620074At that point in the timeline, they would be not that different from the Dark Eldar of 40k. Vect would probably still be making power plays, not quite top-dog yet. Perhaps we see a young Vect play a part in Angron's escape (and take full advantage of the resulting mayhem)? Also, the Dark Eldar's practice of "feeding" on suffering could tie in well with the fact that Angron had empathic abilities prior to the nails. The nails themselves are easy to explain as some Haemonculi's science project.
>>96616460When Sanguinius killed him on Terra, he shouldn't have spawned back in with the nails. He should have been made to realize the full extent of what had happened to him and what he did, and THAT should have been what's driving him to an insane rage. He should be an inconsolable mess who has his empathy powers back, constantly feeling what he's done and doing.
>>96617088No, he was doomed since they made up the special magical macguffin nails that can somehow replace a primarch's brain and can't be removed even though the AdMech can replace every part of a human brain. It was originally in the 2e Chaos Codex that the emperor fucked him over. That's the point, the emperor is a narcissistic twit.
>>96617177That ruins his character even more in an attempt to make the emperor a good guy. Stop.
>>96620239It's not implied that he actually killed his companions at all, it's just emperor stans who won't admit that the emperor was a dick to him.
>>96627060Exactly. Khorne should have been able to "cure" him (but the side effects should be worse).
>>96616460Make Emperor yoink him along with his berserkers. Since the nails are removable in human cases, they can be fixed and you can spit in any basedman face who objects.Angron should look OK, just a little ANGRY, and refuses the Nails removal. Emperor could underestimate the Nails and/or leave that for when the war is over, since Primarch physiology should be enough.A good reason for a grudge is simply not letting him murderize Nucerian regime after what they did to him. Hating the Emperor for being a tyrant, while missing the point of preparing for Chaos early seems to be a common theme with everyone.Nails effects just keep getting worse, but he's more than tough enough to keep going and violently standoffish.Emperor is just in a fuckfest of a hurry, so he has no time to sort out daddy issues from anyone, hence why Mortarion, Perturabo, Konrad and Lorgar go nuts. Because they're far away doing fuckall with no oversight.It ties back into the current lore, and Khorne gets into his head just like with Fulgrim. Lorgar turns him a bit against his will and it's over.It's Lorgar's reason for Chaosmaxxing is worse, since believing voices in your head to torture and kill everyone is good is flatly insane.
>>96628122>>96628142>namefaggot retard doesn't understand the point of warLook at old Diaz Daemon Prince with helmet sticking out of his skull and shut the fuck up.Melding together the metal and flesh and daemon is what Chaos is all about, and yes it should work because Khorne did it himself.
>>96617472>>96617033>>96617008This is also primarily a problem of Khorne in general. At least some of the other characters adjacent to their respective gods have stuff going on or things they do when not fighting but you never see that with most stuff associated with Khorne.The Blood Pact is probably the closes thing to decent associated with Khorne and they get little to no mention anywhere.
>>96628131Its probably more reasonable for it to have happened like that that to have the Emperor make such an obvious misstep.
>>96616460angron as a character concept is fine, his fluff is fine up till you get to modern 40kthe problem is the writers suck, like it's hard to read. i was reading the hashutite book and it was fucking bullshit.in function, angron is tragic, a monster man who should be a hero that was beaten down by life by every turn and warped into a mindless brute by the machines in his head, surrounded by children he never wanted, in an empire he hates.something to remember is in the warhound/WE gene expression is a strong sense of comradely that led them to take the nails to replicate their father. he has that, he's looking for peers.Angron is too strong to show up fully in 40k regularly. but i think it'd be better if the daemonhood removed the effect of the nails, made him something over than a mindless butcher. I like the idea of him operating as Zodd from berserk. he's hunting champions and watching over heroes to build his own group of peers, mentoring slaves and inciting rebellions against the tyrannical.He's wandering realspace in lesser guises forming his own khornate warrior order.khornes fine with this because all combat serves him.
>>96626252>It was him losing in his grand uprising against the lords of Nuceria that got him the punishment of the Butcher's Nails for him and all his closest brothers in arms.no the nails were in before that. big E pulled him away and all his friends were slaughtered.
>>96629880Or hell, don't blueball them in the battle on Nuceria in the first place. Drop down a squad or two of Custodes, or better yet, a company of War Hounds. Either way, arrange it so Angron's band of rebels wins, and more importantly sees the Imperium liberating Nuceria. Sending the War Hounds specifically to bail out the rebellion would work great here. Make it a real "Sic Semper Tyrannis" moment.THEN introduce him to the idea of being a Primarch. Lean on the Imperium as a liberating force, and get the idea through to Angron that he can be one of the greatest among them. The most important part is reinforce his rebellion into freeing Nuceria instead of yoinking him alone and letting the rebel army be crushed.He's eventually going to be a writeoff, whether to Chaos or the Butcher's Nails, but with a bit more tact we could see the World Eaters end up as loyalists until much further into the Heresy...probably not turning at all if they don't start putting the Nails in themselves. >"With two thousand liberated slaves you made the High-Riders bleed. A hundred Astartes have broken the chains of this world. My son, there are many worlds beyond Nuceria, and among them tyrants far greater than the High-Riders. A hundred thousand Astartes stand ready for your command. Join me, take your place as their leader, and you will liberate worlds by the score."
>>96629920>This is also primarily a problem of Khorne in general.See, this is why I make Khorne a woman!
>>96629941Nah, the emperor being a narcissistic prick who gets off on treating people in an arbitrary manner is entirely in-character. The lore that the emperor treated Angron like crap is old.
>>96631176Emperor wanted to bring worlds into compliance ASAP and Nuceria was ready to show it's belly as soon as he showed up.Getting boggled in the war is just flatly detrimental. Simply taking him and his buddies is the most cost-effective.Forcing Primarch into doing what's pragmatic makes them hate it is usually.Your story has literally no bad Imperium-related moments to ever justify his grudges even a little.
>>96631583t. gets his characterisation from leftists in black libraryNo, it isn't. That lore is old, and it never made sense.
>>96628122People who think the Emperor is narcissistic don't understand anything at all about 40k lore.
Give him a hot elf wife.
>>96632988Back in the late 80s/early 90s, pretty much all sci-fi nerds had read the Dune series. So it was obvious that the 40k Emperor is based on Leto II Atreides, with the added twist of having to deal with alien empires and daemons born out of humanity's psyche. So he needs a different solution.But post-Internet, post-MtG terminally online nerds are barely literate, so the context is lost on them.
>>96631982It makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it? Leaders are arbitrary, cruel, and capricious all the time. >>96632988Meaningless statement with nothing to support it.
>>96635054Leto isn't narcissic either, and yes, he's a lot alike the Emperor, but that doesn't mean he's a carbon copy. For instance, he's not a worm. For other, he's not trying to destroy culture and enforce political luddism. His plan is far less complicated and rather blunt.>>96640447>Why wouldn't it?No, it doesn't. Because the Emperor is the New Man and a messiah figure with explicitly good intention.*Other* leaders are arbitary cruel and capricious, Emperor means to bring a way. And the decline of the Imperium is specificially due to his fall.The only (two) reason you ever think he is because you're getting "unreliable narrator" and is generally fucking retarded.You feel an almost divine figure and feel cowed, and secretly resentful, because you can't accept someone so powerful can be genuinely good.
>>9661646040k lore is profoundly uninteresting, stupid, and infantile. By the time anyone "fixed" it to proper level it'd be a whole new setting.
>>96616472Based beyond belief
>>96616460>stronger ties to guiliman>maybe something like extreme pity and resentment between them and because they come from almost mirror places they still understand each other but can never truly see eye to eye>let the space wolves have close ties to the pre angron world eaters and leman russ led them for a time and personally trained many of the captains in his ways of war>all captains he trained were killed by angron earning leman's eternal emnity
>>96640565nice bait>>96640447>Meaningless statement with nothing to support it.It has nothing to support it because it does not need to. You on the other hand need to support your ridiculous notion that the Emperor is narcissistic with some actual arguments.
the war hounds badge was much better than the world eaters badge.
>>96635054The Emperor's solution and Leto's solution are essentially opposites. Leto II said "prescience and omnipotent empires are gay lol" and walked the Golden Path of infinite cruelty to humanity to both inspire humanity to rise up for freedom and to permanently destroy the power of psychic foresight forever. He succeeded at both missions simultaneously, orchestrating his own overthrow and the eternal destruction of psychic clairvoyance. Thanks to Leto II's efforts, humanity enters a new golden age and prevents its own inevitable self-destruction.The Emperor on the other hand did exactly the opposite. He wanted to rule humanity forever and guarantee that the Golden Path he followed would never end, IE his vision of the future would remain absolute. And that is why he's both morally unforgivable and mentally retarded. He didn't want humanity to prosper unless it was by his control over it and his vision for the future. He successfully conquered humanity, but steered it straight into inevitable self-destruction in the process.
>>96646582I've always thought that the World Eaters should have their own version of the Cyber Mastiff, rabid and crazed versions that they unleash on the battlefield, perhaps with butcher's nails included.
>>96616460I would do what I would do with ever Primarch. They are all entities that are basically just myths at this point.
>>96646629>and prevents its own inevitable self-destructionfor now or until a week later when someone realizes the power vacuum available.
>>96626423Where the fuck does this emoath shit come from? I see it constantly repeated, but 0 source for it. It sounds like fanfiction that everyone accepts as true.
>>96646717>for now or until a week later when someone realizes the power vacuum available.Leto II threw away the keys to true galactic conquest, which was psychic prescience (also immortality). Sure, people can wage wars to conquer worlds still, but no one will rule forever because no one can see the future anymore. Most importantly, the fate of humanity isn't going to be dictated by a bunch of lesbian nuns with cobwebs in their vaginas who think they know better than everyone else even though they're blindly creating a megalomaniacal god-king who will destroy them and every other facet of the old order.
>>96646642they kinda used to
Make him gay.And the older gladiator he had to kill was his bf.
>>96646753His Primarch book
>>96616460The problem with Angron is that Khorne is too one note. Have him act with some actual honor or respect. Maybe have Khorne be the least ‘chaotic’ chaos god, their faction honest in its dealings. Have Angron empower weak humans or their worlds, or aid in starting rebellions against the Imperium. Let him ‘save’ vulnerable worlds only for the inquisition to wipe them out anyway.
>>96616460Instead of just yoinking him away from his buddies to die, have the Emperor and co arrive above Nuceria too late to save anyone worth saving other than Angron, and judge the planet itself to be beyond hope of redemption. Angron just wants to die with the rest of his brothers and sisters in a final blaze of glory; the Emperor wants to save his son and rescues him via teleporter (he does not deploy Custodes or Marines to the surface because it'd just be a waste of life- or at least ammunition- just to kill a few scumbags in person when Angron can be rescued "cleanly" much more easily for literally no downside).I'd also make Big E much less cold towards Angron, actively trying to reach out to his son. Perhaps he eventually decides he is a lost cause, but not out of callousness; the realization he cannot save Angron causes him unimaginable grief and pain, the kind that would destroy a lesser man- the fact he has to try and keep going makes him appear heartless to others, when the truth is he cannot afford to be seen as weak when in private, he weeps for his mutilated son..On Angron's part, there is a rational part of him that understands the Emperor's decision to save him was the right one (or at least done out of good intent), that loves him as a father and wants to keep living so his comrades' deaths were not in vain. Unfortunately the Nails are slowly destroying his brain, and the literal permanent neurological damage combined with the trauma of his life on Nuceria and the grief of his fellow rebels' deaths mean he gradually loses the rational side of himself, until eventually it just doesn't exist anymore; not that he's just a snarling animal, but rather that the part of him that loved his father has been convinced by the Nails it never existed, and his heart has become a vessel for bottomless hatred- of the Emperor, of mankind, and of himself.TLDR: Keep the self loathing and brain damage but with actual tragedy instead of Big E being rarted and evil.
