I'm just saying most players don't have the capacity to enjoy a real sandbox.
Sandboxes are a meme, I miss when games had an actual narrative instead of just meandering bullshit.
>>96623804Most players don't have the capacity to learn the system they're actually playing. I blame D&D 5e for this generation of absolute garbage roleplayers who treat campaigns like high school theatre and dating sims.
>end every session by asking the players where they're going to go next>prep for where they're going to goit's literally that simple. you can have your cake and eat it too
Most GMs don't have the capacity to run one either.
>>96623804Yes, and?
>>96624160You're right.
Tell us what you mean by "sandbox".
>>96624022"talk to your players" is beyond internet comprehension
>>96624303No preset path or quests.
>>96624333Having players is beyond internet comprehension.
>>96624429I enjoy that.In fact, that usually means there's not some underlying, fart-huffing narrative to get in the way of gameplay.
>>96623880You do understand what you’re supposed to do with the sand in a sandbox, right? You don’t just sit there and look at sand, you build castles and dig out canyons and MAKE something.A sandbox campaign is about presenting the players with a bunch of extant conflicts and threats, and then building a narrative out of their responses to them and the consequences thereof. You’ll end up with story arcs, complete with primary antagonists, as a result of how the PCs interact with the world and whose ire they earn. You don’t start with those things, but they emerge as a result of everything else going on.
>>96624457How does the narrative get in the way of gameplay?
>>96624492When it reaches a point where everyone is just sitting around talking, or listening to one person talk, or listening to two people talk to each other.When the game isn't being played, and it's just "Noble Nutgobbler this" or "Buttfuck Faction that" and "the Fountains of Cum are blueballed so you have to gather the Seven Mystical Anal Beads from the Thirteen Scary Hairy Bear Captains, and seal away Mega Twink so the Thousand Gods of Why can be at peace" and being jawed at by some NPC every five seconds about this or that bullshit that has nothing to do with playing the game.That's how.
>>96624460Most don't ever get that far. When people speak of sandbox games online, it's treated like a less scripted version of Elder Scrolls. And not like Daggerfall which is more or less infinite depending on how long you intend to ignore the main story, I mean like the modded kind where everyone wants all manner of insane shit shoved in expecting the game to just keep itself together inspite of everything. They don't think of something like finding an undiscovered rift leading to the Plane of Salt to exploit as robber barons, they think of doing the same shit they normally do in a normal campaign but with the GM being an infinite quest dispenser that just sits and waits for their input but otherwise keeps quiet while they sit for hours in a tavern drinking and hitting on random bar maids that the DM's expected to conjure up into existence.
>>96624630God, I haven't thought about Saltspit in years.
>>96624492They're using "Narrative" as a buzzword, to mean some nebulous boogeyman concept wherein the GM harshly railroads the players and allows them no agency whatsoever. They basically want a game that's free roam in GTA, but with dice.This is usually espoused by someone that doesn't actually play TTRPGs and just likes to hang around LARPing about it.>>96624601Case in point, you can tell this person is a nogames tourist that gets all of their opinions from /tg/, and has no firsthand knowledge of how TTRPGs are played or what a typical session actually entails (since they've never participated in one).
>>96624601So you don't like player interaction and flavor, because all you listed is just quests. >Help/Kill the noble>Gather items to seal and defeat the enemy>Quest giver dialogue in generalI don't think it stops you from playing the game, is just for immersion, but I get some people don't like that.Simulation games have the "buying gear" time waster and I also get why people don't like those either, but one man's borefest is another man's reason to play.
>>96624601>so you have to gather the Seven Mystical Anal BeadsAhhh...You have find each bead? As in, separately?
>>96624022You're expecting players to both remember what was said last week AND actually stay true to their word?
Who are you talking to?
>>96623880then read a book
>>96624643Case in point, you can tell this is a buttflustered storyshitter LOL
>>96624653Games shouldn't have "quest givers". Things and people in the world don't exist to service the players. Go back to skyrim faggot
>>96625149>someone hires you to do a job>"Noooo, don't dare to call him quest giver!!!"Like, players are usually known for their martial prowess, is normal people want to hire them for odd jobs, they are not force to accept the job in question but is usually how you present the information of things they can do if they want. Why does this trigger you exactly?
>>96625142You're only proving him right due to lack of an actual comeback>>96625149You'd balk just as hard if someone skipped the npcs and just had you pulling out gold pieces from the monster corpses directly
>>96625165retard
>>96625265nah you proved me right storyshitter reply if mad :)
>>96625396Not either of those anons, but your attempt at using the uno reverse card is denied.Also, please quit using your made-up word, it does nothing but showcase your lack of intelligence for all to see.
lol seething loser replied
>>96625019That's pretty true. Quite a few can't even remember what was on their character sheet, much less the last session.
>>96623804and unfortunately sandbox is the only real RPG play, most people are being robbed of the capacity of the genre
>>96623804>I'm just saying most players don't have the capacity to enjoy a real sandbox.Define "a real sandbox."
>>96625906All freedom, no direction.
>>96625940You're right, most players don't have the "capacity" to enjoy being plopped down in a setting they know nothing about, and told to decide what to do without any structure. You're asking them to basically make up an adventure without having the powers or knowledge that allow a GM to create those things easily.
>>96625940Define 'freedom' and 'direction', because one person's "direction" is another's "railroad", and likewise one person's "freedom" is another's "lazy and apathetic GM".
>>96625019>When me and the other DM switch off games every week and the group can do it every TWO weeks.Just stop being a moron. Be intelligent.
>>96625491>>96625115Oh, you seem to be new here.If you want to respond to someone, you have to link it by clicking on the number above their post. Otherwise, we can't tell who you're angry at.
>>96625940Players provide the direction. If you don't want to participate, leave the fucking table and free up the seat for someone who isn't a waste of oxygen.
>>96626183Oh, you're trying to get banned. I see.
>>96626179>Players provide the direction.Freedom is wasted on most people - give them a chance to do absolutely anything and they will choose to do nothing at all.
>>96626199Why would I play a game with "most people"? I play RPGs with the kind of people who choose to do interesting things.
>>96626237You don't play a game with any people.
>>96623804Most players don't even really want to play an RPG. They want you to read a story to them and then praise them when they roll a big number on their funny dice.
>>96625149You're right it should be just like real life where nobody ever asks anybody to anything for them, not even difficult taks they can' do themselves in exchange for compensation.
>>96623880FPBP as usual. Sandbox games just devolve into the players looking for shit to do, but if you give them anything it's suddenly a storyshit railroad. Litterbox games are a dumb meme and I"m tired of pretending they aren't. As someone who plays games (unlike OP), I can say that presenting your players with "Here's a big open world go do whatever" is a quick way to make them lose interest, where as saying "Here's why you're a party, here's the call to adventure, here's your first goal, how you complete it is up to you and what you do after depends on how you complete this goal" will get them instantly hooked, interested, and they'll have way, way more fun. Players do not want Fallout 3 with dice. They want New Vegas with dice.
>>96623804I'm just saying that bad GMs make sandboxes and good GMs make players believe the game is a sandbox but it isn't.
>>96625019remind the players what they planned and tell them that they have to follow through or there won't be a session. it's super duper easy, I promise
>>96626718Nah fuck that, I'd rather have a concrete goal to work towards that gives me an easy reason to explain why my character is even on an adventure than be shat out in bumfuck mcnowhere in the land of nothingburger where nothing exists until we make it exist. I want to play a hero. I don't want to play some murderhobo jackass. Give me a cartoonishly evil lich with a skeletor voice to march off to fight against where I fight his minions along the away alongside a party of people who also seek to do good.
>>96625948the best sandbox is an adventure game filled with stuff to explore. you leave a trail of crumbs that they piece together to form their version of the commonly imagined milieu.
>>96625391Not an argument.
>>96627982But don't you know, if you put stuff and lore to be found in your world you're a failed writer trying to push a story into your playera or whatever (I'm already lost on how this shitty meme goes)
>>96628540I know, but there's another detail that's wrong with the argument. The "trying to push" -part.I'm not pushing. The players are free to choose not to interact with the stuff I put in the milieu. That's the beauty of it. They can feel that they chose this adventure themselves and they truly achieved victory themselves. I did not push them or give victories to them. It's absolutely the best feeling in TTRPGs. Freedom to achieve anything through your own ingenuity.
Amatuer sandbox>Perfectly detailed map>plentiful roll tables>innumerable NPCs with motivations beyond the playersProfessional sandbox>innumerable undeveloped hooks that are developed the moment the players show interest
>>96623804Oh mean a structured game but poorly guided and with more waisted time?God I hate sand box. Ether there's a great conflict but we gotta do all this busy work to get to the point in which case is it really sand box.Or it's a bunch of meandering because players in a group dont have the same agency in a videogame. Its like a regular game but you gotta squeeze the game out of the dm. At lest give us the main conflict before hand and we'll create characters that can work with it or we'll create our own back stories and now the party is pulled in different directions because the character stories are the main stories and not supplimental to the main story.Shit is ass
>>96626199Speak for yourself, slime mold.
>>96626410Retard.
>>96626651Sorry your players are mindless retards. I guess like attracts like.
>>96627546Defining goals is part of character creation. If you don't want to be a murderhobo, then don't make one. If you want a nemesis, that should be one of your three connections, or the Enemy flaw. Retard.
>>96628515You didn't present an argument, why should I? Retard.
>>96628927Retard.
>>96624022>you can have your cake and eat it tooThat is the standard order of operations. You have your cake, then you can eat it. This is always possible, so it's not the right way to say it.The saying goes "they want to eat their cake and have it too" because it's impossible to do both, and the point of the saying is to point out an impossible or unreasonable desire. You can't eat your cake and have it too, because once you eat it, you don't have it. But you can have your cake and eat it too, because when you have your cake, you can eat it.
>Create starting village>Create 3 specific points of interest out in the wildnerness>These locations have things/clues that point to more locations>Create rumors >Create factions>Expand on whatever players latch ontoIs this a sandbox?
>>96624653>I don't think it stops you from playing the gameI know it does, because there have been plenty of times where I'd have to sit for hours, listening to lore dumps or pretend conversations and not being able to play the game until they're done.>is just for immersion"Immersion" is subjective.Nothing takes me out of a game quicker than shit that has little to nothing to do with actually playing it.It would be like playing poker, but you have to listen to 15-30 minute documentaries on the game before every bet.It's not fun, it's not immersive, and it's not important to playing the game.>Simulation games have the "buying gear" time wasterThat's a completely different beast.How this usually goes is that the arbiter will decide who's selling what, and they also control how much money the characters can get, and they control the availability of items, too. It's a narrative system in disguise, because the arbiter can keep characters from getting the items they need to function properly, while the arbiter keeps what fits his story in mind.Contrast that with an actual game, which leaves the traits of availability and monetary gain up to impartial random chance. Or a game that's more reliant on skill than luck, which allows players to choose their character's gear and compare traits against the potential challenges they'll face.>one man's borefest is another man's reason to play.That's as obvious as telling someone they should drink something when they're thirsty.No fucking shit, Sherlock.The point I was making was about the objective circumstance of things that have little to nothing to facing challenges with skill and luck (playing a game) getting in the way of facing challenges with skill and luck (playing a game).
>>96629560>>96629566Do you feel lonely?
>>96629776>where I'd have to sit for hours, listening to lore dumps or pretend conversations and not being able to play the game Here is you issue buddy, listen to me, NPCs talk to represent than the world exists beyond the players and you have no other way of gathering information than, you now, talking to people. The problem here is that either you have a GM that really likes the talking part, easily fixable by just talking to them, or the rest of the group does enjoy the interaction parts of the playtime, in which case you're in the losing team. This is not an issue if you either talk like grown up people and tell them you wish scenes were shorter, make a character that hurries the interaction and incorporate that to the gameplay or just, like, play a boardgame, Gloomhaven is right there for you.
>>96629635k
>>96629776>bawwwwww why do I have to roleplay in my roleplaying games why can't i just brainlessly roll for everything instead of talking
>>96629556>Defining goals is part of character creation3-5 people with wildly different goals is dogshit at the actual table.>If you want a nemesis, that should be one of your three connections, or the Enemy flaw. Not a thing in 99% of TTRPGs>>96629546Smarter than the average litterbox player. Again, nobody wants a big empty world full of nothing, people want a clear set of goals to work towards.
>>96629635>The saying goes "they want to eat their cake and have it too"No, this is an unusual construction. It's one of the things that helped them narrow down the Unabomber to Ted K:>Kaczynski’s sister-in-law and brother, David, read the manifesto and recognized the writing style and ideas as being just like Ted’s. So, they reported it to the FBI and they had their leading forensic linguist analyze his writings, since it was the only evidence they had. David Kaczynski also sent in other writings that Ted had written for forensic comparison. It was noted that in the Manifesto (which, like all of the Unabomber’s other letters, was signed “FC”), the author used the phrase, “you can’t eat your cake and have it, too” instead of the usual usage, “you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.” This same phrase in the same backwards order was found in some of the letters and documents that belonged to Ted Kaczynski. This was enough for a judge to grant an arrest warrant, where authorities ventured out to his secluded cabin in Montana’s woods. They searched and found journal entries and more bombs and materials.
>>96629727It's a professional level sandbox. You didn't hype yourself on anything so you won't try and coerce your players into said thing. You stick with what sticks and the world grows as they go because it doesn't need to be bigger than that right now. Congrats on being lazy and efficient.
>>96629779lol out of arguments
>>96629870Nope, having varying goals is good, it's a thing in all games, and nobody said the world should be empty. It has clear goals since the players make characters with goals.
>>96629862Roleplaying is any form of deciding the behaviors of someone who isn't oneself, so even wordlessly moving a figure along a grid is roleplaying.Get over it.
>>96631874You're the one who seems to need to get over themselves, anon, since you're more mad about having to talk like a human being than anyone else here is.
>>96629836>Here is [your] issue … NPCs talk to represent [that] the world exists beyond the playersThey don't need to in a game.NPCs can be made up entirely of allied and hostile combat characters, and there still could be a game.Knowing that "the world exists beyond the players" is common sense, and should at most be handled through small, non-intrusive bits of flavor text accompanying the mechanics.>you have no other way of gathering information than, you [know], talking to peopleThere is in games that properly establish the challenges that will require skill and luck on the part of the players; it's called reading the mechanics.>The problem here is thatThere is no present-tense problem; I play games how I want now. I just wanted to point out…>>96624457: …I happen to enjoy sandboxes as the previous posts defined them.>>96624601: …how narrative can get in the way of playing a game.>>96629776: …further clarifications on previous points and rebuttals of newly added points.As demonstrated, however, people seem more interested in deflecting the point and making baseless assumptions than comprehending the very easy to understand points.>just, like, play a boardgameNah.I'll just, like, play TTRPGs of my own design, because a big part of the hobby is about playing what you want and how you want to; at least according to all the 5efags who tell you to rewrite what you don't like and beg your DM for what you want, anyway.
>>96631916>you're more mad about having to talk like a human being than anyone else here isI do enough talking like a human being in my day to day, unlike all the socially-awkward basement-dwelling thunderthighs and pencilnecks in this thread who need to simulate interaction.When I sit down to play a game, I want to play a game, and games don't need those things.I'm sorry you can't understand this simple concept.
>>96631946But anon you're not advocating for a sandbox, you're just advocating against narrative interactions. A sandbox where the game entirely focuses on non-combat interactions is against your stated interests while an adventure where you get placed at a specific dungeon that's a linear line of combat encounters seems to be more what you're looking for.> I just wanted to point out…>>96624457 #:>…I happen to enjoy sandboxes as the previous posts defined them.>No preset path or quests.No preset path or quests doesn't mean no interactions where all you do is talk to NPCs like what you complain about here>>96624601Nothing you've actually mentioned being against isn't present in a sandbox
>>96631824>nobody said the world should be empty. It has clear goals since the players make characters with goals.No but you have said that the interaction with world should "at most be handled through small, non-intrusive bits of flavor text accompanying the mechanics." Which a world you aren't designed to actually interact with is effectively the same as an empty one.
>>96631970Oh, I understand it. And I'm saying the degree you seem to be taking the idea of talking in-character so personally is hilarious as it is pathetic.
>>96623804The real TRVTH NVKE is that most people are too retarded for games of pretend
