What do you do with disengaged players? My group has a couple of games a week. When I run, they seem totally uninterested in NPCs or any plot that does not directly involve them or their backstory. If another player has a plotline happening they only put in the minimum and don't talk to any characters. The group has been on a ship travelling with a group of five Marines for almost a year now. Those marines have had arcs and stories, and the players couldn't name one. The paladin couldn't even point to the one his kid brother had a crush on and constantly followed around on the ship. As a player it's worse. The other GM has noticed much the same, saying I am the only one engaging, but I talk and roleplay with the group and do everything from revealing major secrets about big players in the story to saying we might have to kill the wizard and they don't react in any noticable way. I'm out of ideas, what can I do here?
>>96638408Ask them.
Do the player's characters have equally engaging and thought out plots that they're involved in?
>When I run, they seem totally uninterested in NPCs or any plot that does not directly involve them or their backstory. . If another player has a plotline happening they only put in the minimum and don't talk to any characters.For what it's worth, that is kind of the default for a lot of players, and it's rarely the DM's specific fault. A number of players just have a limited attention span or care for anything that doesn't directly affect them. It kind of sucks to realize a lot of people are pretty selfish, but that's kind of how a lot of people are.>I am the only one engaging, but I talk and roleplay with the group and do everything from revealing major secrets about big players in the story to saying we might have to kill the wizard and they don't react in any noticable way.So what's the issue there, are you tired of always carrying your party when it comes to actually doing something or do you feel bad for your DM only seeing you show active interest in this stuff? Or both?>I'm out of ideas, what can I do here?Talk to them directly. But don't frame it as "I'm trying my best and you guys don't seem to care", that's pathetic. Instead ask directly if they feel engaged or interested in the on-going story that they're building in these games, and if they admit they don't, ask what they're interested in or what you can do to get them to feel more involved. It could well be possible that they're just rather passive players who just prefer to sit back and watch if it's not their turn, or worst case they could just be selfish pricks who legit don't care about the others at the table. And it's important to figure out which one they are before going further.
>>96638472I do, about once a month at this rate. Every time I bring up specifically what I'm having issues with and with examples. Each time they promise to put more effort into the games, and sometimes they even do.>>96638473Yes. For the game I run, they're the ruling council under an Empress. They decide how the small empire is run, head military deployments, and have had petitioners. The Empress and her brother were the only NPCs they talked to (none of the nobles, none of their subordinates, one of the citizens) even their families rarely (though sometimes) got interacted with. I worked out a whole system of behind the screen stuff for how their rulership would effect the nation and it was virtually never used.For the one I was a player in, they had very more. The GM set up a six way faction war and each faction tied direct into one of the players somehow. (One faction was the city a player was a noble in, one had a leader that was a former student of a player's mentor, ect). Oddly I was the one without a real story in that game, as my faction had been mentioned and seen twice. And never with any named characters, just running into foot soldiers so we're vaguely aware they're around and a threat. Almost all of the time went to the others because the GM was trying to get them ingame.
>>96638476>For what it's worth, that is kind of the default for a lot of players, and it's rarely the DM's specific fault. A number of players just have a limited attention span or care for anything that doesn't directly affect them. It kind of sucks to realize a lot of people are pretty selfish, but that's kind of how a lot of people are.What's odd is, they were great in our first campaign. I don't know what's changed.>So what's the issue there, are you tired of always carrying your party when it comes to actually doing something or do you feel bad for your DM only seeing you show active interest in this stuff? Or both?The other DM has expressed how annoyed he is that no one else is really playing. As we're all friends I really want to see his stuff enjoyed. He's the best GM I've ever had. Getting the rest of the party to actually interact when I talk theories and plots is a bonus.>Talk to them directly. But don't frame it as "I'm trying my best and you guys don't seem to care", that's pathetic. Instead ask directly if they feel engaged or interested in the on-going story that they're building in these games, and if they admit they don't, ask what they're interested in or what you can do to get them to feel more involved. It could well be possible that they're just rather passive players who just prefer to sit back and watch if it's not their turn, or worst case they could just be selfish pricks who legit don't care about the others at the table. And it's important to figure out which one they are before going further.I'll give this a try, though every other times it's just been promises that they are engaged, they're just really sleepy that day.
>>96638573I will note that it is very possible that your friends are just not very good players or just not good at actively engaging with tabletop games and see it as more of an "entertain me" kind of sitation. Which is not an indictment of them nor your friendship, it's just something that can happen sometimes. That's why talking to them is important, especially if they keep making promises but don't improve. If it turns out your group does have this kind of dynamic, your GM might just need to adjust their approach to the game where the other party members can be on cruise control while you engage more in the story bits that they leave alone.
>>96638679It's a shame as they were great in the first campaign we did. I do worry, at least for me, we're looking for different things and best look elsewhere
>>96638408They're burnt out. Play less but punchier games. Try a few one shots or short campaigns instead of 5 year slogs twice a week. No one gives a shit about the paladin's kid bother's crush.
>>96639122You may be right, we had a one year campaign only I ran. Then broke into the two games. It's a shame when I finally get to play they're all done
>>96638554>Each time they promise to put more effort into the gamesThen you're having the conversation wrong. "Make them do better" is never going to work, because they don't actually care about doing better. Try to find out what changes YOU can make that they would find more engaging. And no this doesn't mean you need to cater to their every whim.Also bear in mind they might not have thought much about it. And might be wrong.I suspect they'd be better off playing board games than RPGs.
>>96638408*taps sign*
>>96638408Stop inviting them.
>>96638679Why would you run a game for people who don't want to participate? What's the point?
>>96641018Good job, you added nothing to the discussion.
>>96642773It's good advice for OP to stop putting so much effort into his game if he has 0 players willing to use it.
>>96642769Fucked as it is, there are people out there who are convinced that the point of a game like D&D is that the GM is supposed to entertain them instead of actively engaging themselves in the experience. They're the type who don't pay attention to what's going on when it's not their turn, routinely forget the rules, and have to ask others about what they put on their own character sheets. And sometimes, those unfortunately end up being your own friends.
>>96642769They all tell me they want to participate. Most recently I tried giving each of them a madlibs style journal for their characters to fill out each session. Nothing big or in depth just "Today I want to..." and "today I learned..." in the hopes it would help them focus their efforts a bit. Seven lines each requiring a one word answer that they could get by engaging with the game, with another party member, or just by taking ten seconds to think about what their character wants.And yet, still, there was a player who didn't finish it.
>>96641018>>96642773Actually I find this kind of useful. In the game I'm a player in I'll try to lean more to being a caller, and maybe the other players can get some use out of it too
>>96638408Treat them like students.Vary the things you talk to them about. Offer them a variety of things to do. Make them feel comfortable expressing themself in front of you through encouragement. Set expectations that you expect them to meet, and then provide feedback on whether or not they met the expectations.Social skills are social skills are social skills. The same dynamics are present if you're a teacher, a leader at a job, or a GM of a TTRPG. The specifics change but how to get people to engage with you? Same problem. And it's been studied a hell of a lot for teachers, and a little less for bosses. So look to those sources for strong, constructive, proven advice on how to handle problem players/students/employees.But the big one is this: make them feel like you're paying attention to them, set expectations for them, and let them know whether they've met those expectations.And ask them to do you favors. Give them opportunities. Feed them dialogue or plot hooks or treasures and tell them "hey, I want you to weigh in at this time and do this thing."
>>96641018This is idiotic and unhelpful. Teaching you to segregate and pigeon-hole people is just a way for you to say "not my fault."As a GM, you are a leader in a social environment. Your skills, not the charicatires you accuse your players of, are what will determine your success.
>>96643795Despite what Critical Role has taught you, the GM's role isn't to be a dancing monkey constantly performing and amusing the players. The players have to buy in and take initiative or the game won't work. It's like people who complain about movies not being scary but they're watching in a bright room and fucking around with their phone and not even trying to get in the mood. The equivalent of someone standing with their arms crossed pouting in a corner at a party.
>>96643857>Despite what Critical Role has taught you,30 years of GMing, you mean.Of course the GM is leading a social gathering.
>>96638408Quit trying. They're obviously not interested in playing a TRPG. They're just there to belong to a popular hobbyspace and socialize.I recommend trying out some board games or a movie night.
>>96638472This SHOULD be the move to make, but it's amazing how quickly people become inarticulate golems when you simply ask them what they want. What would be more fun for you? What can we do differently to keep you invested? What don't you like about the game right now? And all you get in exchange is a shrug and a mumbly "I dunno man." or an even more dishonest, "I'm really enjoying the game. You don't have to change anything."
>>96644223It's a myth that humans behave rationally. We behave however we feel like, then invent explanations to rationalize that behavior. No one ever knows why the hell they do anything at all, unless the motivation is as simple as "I was hungry."
>>96643795The pic explains at every step what kinds of players could use what kinds of help to advance to being better.
>>96644324No, the pic invents categories that affirm your preconceptions so that you don't have to think very hard and feel good while doing it. It's not helpful, because it's not appealing to anything real. It's just appealing to your biases. Which are about you, not your players. So learn social skills, instead, if you want to be effective in social situations. On which quite a lot of scientific and reproducible research has been performed.
>>96644352There are scientific studies on levels of player investment into ttrpgs? No? Then the pic stands as the most prolific treatise on the topic
>>96644389Your ignorance is your problem, not mine. Wanna believe that an issue of Cosmo can tell you which of the ten types of boyfriends make the best husband? Get together with your girlfriends at a sleepover, and run craig and jack through the quiz. You'll learn nothing but hey: maybe you'll come out of it with a perm.
>>96644223I blame the spoiled self worshipping first world society we live in that causes people to have a wanton disregard for other people’s time. If you doubt it ask yourself when the last time someone showed up to a meeting with you 10 minutes early. Social, work, otherwise. I can’t name one. People will just cancel on a whim nowadays and whine about how no one wants to dm.
>>96638408>The group has been on a ship travelling with a group of five Marines for almost a year nowThey're bored as fuck with the "story" you're telling them and are only showing up because they are your friends and want to hang out. Scrap the entire thing, put them in front of a megadungeon, and stop trying to write a novel instead of PLAYING A GAME>The paladin couldn't even point to the one his kid brother had a crush on and constantly followed around on the ship. I really hope that kid brother isn't a fucking NPC who has a crush on another NPC lmao you seriously think your players give a shit about any of this? You can write fanfic on your own time
>>96643376Yeah, those people are wrong. So stop inviting them.
>>96643730So what? What they tell you is irrelevant. They don't participate, so they aren't interested in participating.
>>96643972Then your experience is wrong. The GM doesn't direct the game.
>>96644223Then stop inviting them.
>>96644520A. Of course he doesB. Being a leader in a social setting does not necessitate that you be the sole person with authority in that situation
>>96644529Wrong. If the GM is directing it, it's not a game.
>>96644573See: >>96644529Wrong so A. If correct, then B.Either way? Wrong.
>>96644452This would be more valid if they didn't give the other guy offering to DM for their group the same treatment. The main problem is they clearly don't respect the effort put into making the game cater to what they want, and OP just can't find it in him to realize they aren't going to change that any time soon.
>>96644639There's an autistic anon who is trying to turn every thread into a convesation about his obsession with whether or not ttrpgs count as having "stories."Just ignore him. It's not relevant to the thread.
>>96638573Kick your friends out. I will play with you. What system/setting?
>>96644689Fair enough. Still, I do vaguely hope that OP has that talk. I've heard a fair number of groups that fall apart because one friend was cool overall but a dick when playing ttrpgs, and nobody had the guts to talk to them or eventually stop inviting them to ttrpg sessions and let their resentment fester.
>>96643972Wrong. The GM is laying out the social gathering. It's up to the players to actually socially gather.
>>96644749>blame!>fault!Did OP ask "who can I blame" or "how do I make it better?'Right. Shut up, dipshit.
>>96644769Silence, playoid.
>>96643972>me and my group of rotting 50 year old boomers is universally applicable to all situations>my advice for OP?>uhhhh learn socialization or....something idk
der playoidbehind every failed campaign
>>96638554>make decisions on a steering committee >role play with your imaginary family this sounds painfully boring anon. did they agree to this sort of campaign ahead of time or are you subjecting them to it without input?
>>96645422Running an Empire sounds fun to me, but I'm not a low tier lemming/wallflower/normoid that just wants to be passively entertained
>>96645055Correct: my response to inane-anon was not where I put my advice. My advice was here: >>96643787, where I explained to OP how he could dramatically improve his outcomes with proven tools and methods.And I'm right.
>>96645475>OP: My players and bored and unengaged, what do I do!>Tard boomer anon: Lecture them!
>>96645465that sounds extremely passive what are you talking about
>>96645484>Lecture them!I'm sorry you're illiterate anon. That must make life hard for you.
>>96645485>OP gives players tools to manipulate an entire empireThis is only passive for passive players, I take it you are a low-tier player that just does whatever you think the GM wants you to do
>>96645495>Set expectations that you expect them to meet, and then provide feedback on whether or not they met the expectations.>Not a lectureKek at leaky brain boomer anon
>>96645496>h-heres your imaginary wife, played by me, your tranny gm. what do you do next anon??nah im good
>>96645521>Writes strawmen>Attacks themReally fascinating and thoughtful there, anon.
>>96645526>DM: here's a massive empire for you to help run and do with what you wish>playoid: *hits bong* what....oh right....uhhhh.....do i have a spell that does that.....or something>DM: Uh your wife from your backstory was kidnapped by one of the houses. How do you use your tools to respond!>playoid: uh....what backstory....*hits bong* oh yeah *coughs* uhhhh.....fucking uhhhhh.... what
>>96645549that sounds super gay though, i probably would zone out desu. maybe you'd rather read a book or something but it definitely doesn't sound like you enjoy playing ttrpgs
>>96645568>i'd rather *be passive*>maybe you'd rather enjoy *passive hobby*
>>96645582>come up with a campaign your players aren't interested in playing>get butthurt that they aren't interested in playing the campaign you came up withi dont know what to tell you dude, it sounds gay and your players seem to agree. But the fact that they even bother to keep showing up demonstrates that they are good people and value your friendship. maybe you should learn to reciprocate somehow
>>96645604>playoids say they are interested>but they aren't interestedThis is because most low tier playoids are barely conscious. It's why my advice to OP has been just run simple dungeon crawls. Though I have found low tier playoids incapable of even dungeon crawls, just simple point crawls. I don't know why you keep seething about the idea that people more invested in the hobby than you enjoy more complex games
>>96645619ive been making fun of it, not seething at it though. it deserves to be made fun of cause its gay, sorry for any discomfort this causes for you tonight. you should probably just find a new hobby, like reading or 4x games
>>96638408players need to be wrangled into coming up with short- and long-term goals at character creation, even the most loathsome slug can refer back to their character goals.
>>96645647Nah, I quite enjoy this hobby, better than you do
>>96645654you already said you couldnt find anyone to play with you though. you probably just collect books, huh?
>>96645669I fear your low-tier playoid brain failed to follow a thread and confused me with someone else. I run one game and play in two others
>>96645674sure you do pumpkin, you definitely dont have shelves full of useless systems youve never played
>>96645688The only game I own which never saw play is MERCS which turned out to be OOP after I bought it from an LGS
>>96645693Only one? Be aspirational! Some day I will con a group into letting me take LoGaS off the shelf and give it a shot.
>>96644452The brother is a kid, the 'crush' is literally that NPC constantly following the marine around. If you write a character who's backstory involves him being invested in his family, I'm going to use the family. Oddly one of the most invested the players were was when another PC's daughter asked for help studies, and the party autismed over it for two hours then went with her to hand it in.>>96644741We did already have our 'one guy is a dick in RPGs' moment a while back. Asked the player to leave the games (though emphasized that he was still welcome to hang out, play videogames, and so on) he insisted that he be included in EVERY activity he wanted. Then threw a fit and left the group.As for having that talk again, did it last night. One player got a little worked up at me for making it a group conversation, but after that burnt out we did make progress and (I hope) set expectations. They insisted they are working towards being fully engaged players, but I'm not sure myself or the other GM has the energy to run zombie sessions until they figure that out.>>96645422Every campaign is pitched to the group. Mine was the Empire building one where the players start with a ruined colony and work up. The other GM's was factional warfare and investigation. Both times players seemed hyped for it. The families I use in game were specifically asked for. They've been leading from the front, so there's no shortage of stabbing things.>>96645526Haven't played anyone's wife, put the estrogen down. I declined to play one players husband and kept him in the background while having her daughter be a character. Then the parents and siblings of another. >>96645650Absolutely something I'm going to start requiring. I'll hold them to whatever chatgpt writes for them
>>96645770>As for having that talk again, did it last night. One player got a little worked up at me for making it a group conversation, but after that burnt out we did make progress and (I hope) set expectations. They insisted they are working towards being fully engaged players, but I'm not sure myself or the other GM has the energy to run zombie sessions until they figure that out.Genuinely, good for you anon. Best you can do now is do your own best and keep at it then.
