Armed and Dangerous Edition>>IF YOU ARE ASKING A QUESTION, PLEASE SPECIFY WHICH GAME YOU'RE PLAYING<<Previous Thread: >>96573137/pfg/ (pathfinder 1e) link repository: https://pastebin.com/RSt0rF0T/p2g/ (pathfinder 2e) link repository: https://pastebin.com/1zySxwm3/sfg/ (starfinder) link repository: https://pastebin.com/5yp9s2U3>>CHECK THE SHARE THREAD FOR MISSING MATERIALS<<TQ: should weapon affect the crit range?
>>96649207>TQ: should weapon affect the crit range?No. 1e or 2e, critical weapons feel more thematically fitting when they increase crit multipliers over being easier to crit with>>96649178>As someone who has spent ~2 years playing sf1e my problem with sf2e is that they just took half the classes out back and shot them. I can understand dumping weirdo classes nobody actually cares about like Nanocyte or Evolutionist, but why get rid of stuff like Technomancer or Mechanic? Both seem like they should be core classes.It's not about dumping those classes, the only class (so far) that has no real chance of returning is Precog. And that's just simply because it was subsumed into Witchwarper.Technomancer and Mechanic not being in the core rulebook (and somewhat all tech) is mainly Mechanic's fault, being a class that has to be large as hell. Between the rigs, Drone Companion rules, and the actual concept itself, it doesn't lead itself to being compressed in a book with the core rules (whether reprinting 2e stuff or if everything was original) with 6 other classes. Technomancer just sort of died on that sword with them despite being a (relatively) simple concept was because if you gonna make a whole book with all the tech stuff...yeah, they gonna follow.Just be patient, man
I was a 1e fan for a long time, but 2e can actually be pretty cool, huh? Eldritch Archer+Psychic are giving me good feels.
what's people's experiences with campaign side mechanics? want to know if it's worth including one or if it's just going to waste time and frustrate players
>>96649903Depends. In general Paizo seems incapable of fleshing them out in manner that makes them fun to engage for players. But side mechanics may also give players some interesting stuff to do in between repetitive dungeon runs. Honestly, my advice is to read whatever Paizo has written, and just use the general idea as inspiration for your own thing.
>>96649903If the players are not already on board with it, do not introduce it.As well, if you are prepared to do the background work, don't do it.
Why are the shells pointing that way?
>>96649903what do you even mean by side mechanicsdowntime activities? domain management?
>>96649178Like the other anon points out, they didn't get taken out and shot, they literally JUST LAUNCHED SF2e and 6 classes at once is a fucking lot, let alone if they tried launching with all 12 (or 11, given Precog was folded into Witchwarper). Launching with the 6 they did already proved to be chock full of issues, and there's non-class shit they still have to do (like fill out the insanely sparse equipment lists).Citing Nanocyte is funny though, I was JUST talking to a friend who lamented how it would probably be a while before they port that one over. Meanwhile I can only assume that SF Evolutionist and PF Shifter will likely be getting merged together so Paizo doesn't have to make two martial shapeshifter classes, and I cannot wait to see how mad that makes fans of both even if I can feel for the loss of texture and identity. F in the chat for Inquisitor and Slayer.
>>96650418>Slayer>identityIt was probably the weakest hybrid thematically, right next to the Hunter. Generic sneak attack man.
>1e>Sling (large).>Ammo Drop.https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ammo%20Drop>Juggle Load.https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Juggle%20Load>Two-Handed Thrower.https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Two-Handed%20ThrowerWill these stack together to give me 1.5x damage with a sling?
>>96650531I can't really disagree, most of Slayer's "identity" is being "a competent version of CRB Fighter/Rogue/Ranger" that later got powercrept by those same classes getting more options to bring them up (Unchained, Advanced Weapon/Armor Trainings, cracked archetypes, and uhhhhh I'm sure Ranger got something right?). In PF2e Slayer is just a Rogue or Ranger, though Ranger feels like it's really missing some juice.>Avenger exists?The only good part of that dogshit class archetype is that Paizo remembered my boy Zadim exists. I don't know why they keep printing class archetypes if they're all going to be shit.
>>96650533I think two-handed thrower works only with thrown weapons, not slings, and anyway oversized weapons give -2 penalty to attack.
>>96648809The problem with exemplar isn't that it's overpowered (the only potentially OP thing is how accessible the dedication is and how much it gives with little investment), it's that it has no identity as a class and actively takes away from the mythic systems simply by existing.
>>96649207Looking over how they did stamina points for 2e, it really seems like they kind of forgot the purpose of them from Starfinder 1e.RAW in 2e using stamina points, you get them back after 8 hours of rest. SF 1e had you regain SP after taking a short break to basically catch your breath and steady yourself. It was a method of ensuring you could have several encounters without having to dedicate a lot of time for healing in-between them and keep the game going.Then again, 2e assumes EVERY encounter has the party at full health, all spells refreshed, and shit anyway, so it's kind it's coming from a retarded design point right out the gate.
>>96651180honestly if you use half HP=stamina, 10 minute break refills stamina, and severely cut down actual HP healing mechanics somehow you'd probably just have a better version of pf2ethe "spend 40 minutes jacking off after every combat" thing sucks balls honestly. the guaranteed nature of taking damage makes it so you can't really get away with traditional dungeon turns with random encounter checks every 20m, trading time for risk, without absolutely shitting on your PCs' survivability. a single 10 minute break post-combat to heal most of your injuries wouldn't step on that nearly as much
>>96651135>it's that it has no identity as a classI kinda thought that was the point, honestly. I was thinking the players were supposed to decide the identity.>actively takes away from the mythic systems simply by existing.Did it? I guess I didn't notice because Paizo's obtuse mythic system for PF2e has so little to take away from. Here's to hoping Revenge of the Runelords helps that our though.
Spirit Warrior? Now that's a mistake.
>>96651135I'm conflicted because while I disagree that Exemplar is pointless or lacking in identity, on account of really liking its stance swapping gimmick and how easy it is to turn the class into a "magical martial arts guy", I also can at least understand the thought, given its current state is a little scuffed and in dire need of another design pass, and Ikons as low level mythic shit would have been far cooler than what we got, because holy fuck is mythic basically a nothing mechanic until you get the level 10+ feats.>>96652198I remain baffled that nothing from that archetype was given to Monk. God damn. Contributes to my feeling that monk should just have built in +2 parry, free monk weapon use, and the feat spend on weapons should be for rune sharing with handwraps so you can actually mix unarmed like weapon-using martial artists ALWAYS FUCKING DO IN FICTION.
>>96652267It's good to remember the timetables for LO: Tian Xia and PC2 were kinda fucked. The LO Team don't make core book content and Tian Xia had to be delayed to mid-remaster, alongside Monk's changes. Can imagine some of the Spirit Warrior ideas were supposed to be akin to Martial Arist: a way to get Monk-esque stuff without Monk MC, but not much was put alongside.Player Core 2's errata have been pretty small over the year its been out, and TXCG has been even smaller despite the numerous typos and mechanical issues. So I don't really want to blame Spirit Warrior too much for Monk not getting major changes to their core gameplay and feat design.
>>96651852Yeah, they had a good idea with stamina points in SF, it was unique and didn't share any DNA with the OGL, allowed for faster pace when having multiple encounters per session, and did a good job of making straight up dungeon crawls better.Then they shat on it.
>>96652267more archetypes should just be new feats given to classes
>>96652394>>96652474Martial Artist and Spirit Warrior giving things that monk can't get in-class, and getting it requires taking a bunch of redundant garbage, will never not make me mad. It's not Spirit Warrior's fault, it's the people in charge of the game's, SW just makes me think about it.
While we're at it, it's fucking ridiculous how the shortsword isn't a Monk weapon
>>96652763The monk trait on weapons is a mistake. Just remove the limitation completely or limit it to d8 or something if you think Flurrying with a Greatsword breaks your game.
>>96652763>>96652801In a world where Rogue gets full martial proficiency with the finesse or d6 limit, a limit on monk of d8 1-handed, d10 2-handed sounds completely fine to me. Weebs can be Katanamaxxing Ronins, long and shortswords are on the table without needing to be a specific ancestry that has it as familiarity, and at the end of the day a stance is still probably better most of the time anyway so who gives a fuck.
Instead of ditching the monk trait, "monk weapons" should be all agile or finesse weapons, plus weapons with the monk trait. any existing agile/finesse monk weapons lose it since it's now redundant, and maybe put the trait on a few other weapons as well to pad things out so you can have katana monks and stuff.That's basically the rule they're already following anyway, as long as you can gain familiarity with a certain agile or finesse weapon.
I had a character idea I wanted to ask you guys advice on but I forgot it.
The Monk trait is just a general symptom of how fucked weapon selection is if you want to try and be creative with your options.Take Parry weapons for instance, there is absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be a selection of d10 parry 2-handers. And speaking of 2-handers, why aren't there more agile/finesse ones? What would break if we had d10 finesse weapons, or d8 agile?We already have a general idea of how much damage tax each trait is supposed to be worth just by looking at the list, so why can't we get an archetype, or shared class feat or something, that lets us swap out certain traits with certain others of equivalent value?"But that's inventor's thing!" Well, fuck inventor, it's already unplayable so we might as well salvage it into something that actually adds to the game.
>>96652267You WILL carry a bo staff to trip and parry with.
>>96653430Whip and tower shield*
>>96653430On one hand that's literally just classic monk shit so who cares, on the other a bo staff and quarterstaff being different weapons makes no fucking sense at all. At least it's not shield monk garbage.
>>96653441fortress shield*
>>96653460Monk is always going to carry some weird bullshit in his hands until they specifically add a penalty for martial arts with occupied hands. If the statsticks disappeared they'd just be replaced with readied consumables.
>>96649207Im about to start a mythic dual class campaign 2e with GM even throwing in free archetype. I wanna play wizard but I dont know what to do with the rest? Any advice
>>96653762You're basically describing a game which is so far outside the realm of what most people here have literally any frame of reference for that you're basically never going to be able to get any real advice for it.
>>96653762If you're set on wizard, for your other stuff, consider Investigator and the Palatine Detective archetype. Once you can exit PD use the rest of your archetype feats on gaining more caster stuff, like Witch(either occult for more useful slots, or primal to cover every single tradition). Go crazy on the buffs and debuffs. Organsight is your best friend. As for Mythic, I would say you have two main options - Wildspell to become a counterspelling beast, or Mortal Herald for more mobility and frontline potential.
>>96650533>>96651043>See post"Well that's a silly question, why would you think that works toge-">Check page>Weapon Group: Thrown.What the fuckIt actually might, anon
Why is dying a flat check instead of a fortitude save?
>>96654326Make it a performance check and I'm sold.
>>96654339Roll too high and everybody is too fascinated by your dying monologue to stabilize you.
>>96654326squishy caster types already pay in survivability by having less HPthat said the dying system fucking sucks balls and I hate itI hate that instant death isn't a possibility and I hate the pingponging garbage and I hate that actually no you can't design this system to allow for "the orc cuts your fucking head off with one mighty blow" because then one player is going to spend the next three hours completely checked out of the session while they make their new character
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=984Am I reading this right that if you get woe you can just give yourself +2 as a reaction every single turn for the next 30 minutes?
>>96654515Does ressurection not exist?
About to jump into my first campaign and came across the optional flaw rule. Thought it was very weird you could just make your character worse for fun. Then I learned that it replaced an actually useful rule. Why the fuck would Paizo do this?
>>96654768Because the replacement is just about better. Being able to just use Human stats cashes out on a net positive to getting 4 boosts and 3-4 flaws.It's not that I don't like min-maxing, but I also know that it wasn't a good idea most of the time.
Optional flaws existing as a rule is noobtrap garbage meant to trick people into thinking that they aren't playing a tactical wargame where you HAVE to hyper optimise your character or you're outright trolling the table and making things worse for everyone involved
>>96654515There are massive damage rules, I think it's 2x your max hp in one hit is instant death. There are also death effects that if they down you just kill you outright. If you've only played low level it's no surprise you haven't seen them, but stuff like Vision of Death is pretty common the higher you go up.>>96654560It does, I think there is both a spell and a ritual. Raise Dead is the spell.
>>96654515I've instantly killed a few characters.Suffocation, the death trait, massive damage.I also ask players to have a backup character prepared.There used to be a pretty notorious instant death in abominations vaults; mister beak could cast rank 3 vampiric touch and instantly kill anyone that failed their fort save.
>>96654868>trick people into thinking that they aren't playing a tactical wargameWhy exactly would one have to trick someone else into thinking the truth?
Out of curiosity, I have heard that the worst way to play SF is by using any of the published adventure paths. Is there any truth to that?
>>96655899Kinda. The APs for SF overall feel like very much like PF APs in space instead of leaning into how dramatically different a science fantasy, universe sized game can be. You have a pretty impressive amount of content from aliens, tech, locales, and an infinite universe given the existence of the Deck of Many Worlds but the tone for the bulk of the APs is pretty consistent on the whole as being pretty serious affairs. There are some things that standout like Skitter Crash and having to help out some VTubers, but those are rare and it is kind of a missed opportunity. SF really shines if you play into the outlandish nature of the game. From Saturday Morning Cartoon kind of wackiness, Lovecraftian nightmare scenarios, Spaceballs tier space comedy, etc but the APs don't really explore the different themes you can easily get into with SF all that much and it comes off as kind of bad because of missed opportunities. Also, Paizo kind of sucks at designing APs in the first place with frankly retarded design concepts.
>>96655899Paizo has okay base ideas for APs, and you can utilize the general structure of AP for your own story.But playing Paizo APs straight out of the box is pretty miserable experience for both GM and players.
>>96654857I think giving every ancestry the ability to take 2 free boosts is a fucking retarded idea. It completely obliterates flavor and the reason it was done was cause having races be inherently better/worse is """""problematic""""".
>>96656166Ancestry feats already make certain Ancestries wildly, staggeringly better than others, let alone when one has good 3 boost/1 flaw selections. All the optional alternative boost does is make it so someone trying to be silly doesn't actively troll their group as hard by playing an Int Penalty ancestry wizard or whatever.
>>96656653My issue is that it is a further homogenization that frankly feels utterly wrong. Like you're actively stripping away uniqueness. Then again, I'm the sort of autist who won't change outfits in an rpg cause it is non-canon so whatever.
>>96656653What you're describing is the wizard class being poorly designed and consequently enforcing false choice, not flaws themselves being a bad ancestry feature. A low INT wizard should lose spell slots, but not have worse spells, and simultaneously get some other perk to remain strategically relevant. Megumin is a perfect example of a low INT wizard. The system's inflexibility is due to the classes having built in force multipliers for some stats (like class DC) but not others, meaning minmaxing isn't just expected, it's de facto required by the class itself.
>>96650048So that your character can kill themslves instantly, saving you from playing Starfinder anymore.
>>96649968Yeah, reading the ones for Horizons of the Vast to prep for a campaign and all the settlement buildings are just "number goes up" without anything mentioned that translates into a tangible change or benefit to the players. Will probably run it as "Unless the relevant store gets built expect to wait a month for a ship to deliver the item you want to buy" but the whole thing is gonna take a lot of work.
>>96650418>>96649366Still annoyed that Precog got subsumed into Witchwarper, when Precog has the whole "Dude who got sent back in time and can predict what will happen" fantasy to match Tomorrow Never Dies, Next, and a bunch of other sci-fi while Witchwarper's "I slid one dimension over and can now warp reality somehow" doesn't really mesh with anything except "It was all a dream" movies like Inception. Witchwarper and Vanguard always felt like "mechanic first" classes rather than "sci-fantasy theme first" classes and that annoys me.Does PF2e do half-casters? The free Longarms or Advanced Melee always made me feel like Precog started as a half caster class but was changed because SF1e only does 2/3rds casters. Would be neat if they brought it back as a hybrid class with much fewer spells but better combat and a ton of Fortune effects.
>>96656166You aren't wrong about it being done because WOKE, but it is good to remember the core stat array is right there. Plenty of races do have DEX or INT penalties, two of the more "problematic" penalties, and it does help the races that are just made with 2 stats over 3 + 1 flaw, like Kitsune or Shisk. It's kind of hard to be fully angry about it when you lose out on nothing but a bad deal. It's not like 5e or Draw Steel where they don't even say anything about what an ancestry's core stat line is anymore.>>96657112Even in terms of game feel, attributes tend to fall by the wayside more often than not because 2e doesn't have the same direct manipulation of stats 1e does. You don't have to worry about the local succubus stat draining you into a coma. I think getting caught up on them isn't even autism but grasping for straws to complain about.I really only relate because I thought they were gonna use the excuse to never print ancestry flaws again, but they just kept going with +3/-1 arrays, so being mad is pointless.>>96657219Even more narrative games with attributes still have to say your core attribute is what you will be using to hurt things. You are better off just roleplaying or going full narrative dice game like Roll to Die if you want to make deliberately contradictory concepts like Megumin work (which is the point, she's a bad Wizard even by KonoSuba's standards thanks to her ECK-PLOS-SHIINN obsession. You need good INT and a wide array of spell options to resolve conflicts)
>>96652449I was honestly baffled PF2e didn't have Stamina Points when its one of the best changes Starfinder made.
>>96657342Witchwarper and Precog sort of already stepped on each other's toes in their lore. A dude from the future is pretty much entirely the same as a dude from another timeline, ergo a reality. Meshing them together helps not only their fluff, but also avoid weird redundancies given how they both need an extensive class feat list.>Does PF2e do half-casters?Yes and no? It's a different style since every caster is expected to reach 9th-Rank slots, given how heightening is just a base concept. Magus and Summoner use what is known as Bounded Casting, where they only get 2 of their highest and 2 of their 2nd highest ranked slots (totaling 4) of their innate slots at any given time (barring any additional slot mechanics like Fey Eidolon's Gift Spells or Magus's Studious Spells). But they do get standard martial scaling in exchange.>>96657364Stamina doesn't solve much other than Cleric yo-yo-ing. Which is really more an impediment to players than creates interesting build plans or playstyles. The variant rule just sort of rewards having a face in the party, since now they can just recover stamina for the group. And even without them, it isn't like you wouldn't have a good pool of Resolve to shore up that gap.It sounds smarter than it really is.
>>96657344There is no reason a class cannot have alternative routes to similar levels of damage/support/utility output. You already have a limited number of attribute assignments to keep a lid on total power scaling. The only reason Paizo doesn't let them is because class complexity (and thus design complexity) increases exponentially as you introduce competing mechanics and they'd rather just compartmentalize everything into DLCs instead. PF2's class design has the exact same "railroad pretending to be a sandbox" philosophy as its APs, which is why you get the Weapon Monk But Fixed DLC class instead of the Weapon Monk Is Fixed patch.The Konosuba party members are all quite powerful despite, and in part because of, their eccentricities. Megumin's romantic pursuit of the most powerful attack magic is what gives her a destructive power that's impossible if she followed a more conventional route, and is why she can actually hurt the high level demon threats the party runs into at all. Dullahan does not care how many fireballs a normal Black Mage would have thrown at him. If some GM said "uh ackchyually Megumin has 8 INT so her explosion DC is at -5 compared her level's expected DC so it sucks against everything" then the whole character concept would be ruined.
>>96657459If you want to argue that classes and their capabilities should be detached from their attribute scaling, you might as well get rid of either classes or attributes. It is annoying Paizo doesn't give much stat swap options, and the Key Ability Score adding to your attributes is my most hated mechanic in this game, but that's a different complaint compared to whinging how d20 fantasy TTRPGs fucking function.This isn't KonoSuba, that show isn't designed like a co-op game. I'm not even being one of those "lmao STATS in my FANTASY story!? THIS IS SLOPSLOP!", I actually like LitRPG stuff. But you have to acknowledge that this isn't a light novel. This is a game where you are expected to have strengths and weaknesses that your party helps compensate for, not the author that gets to come up with threats that just so happen to actually be weak to your scuffed build. The rules are like that because it is something meant to reward "min-maxing". The rules dictate the story being built, not the other way around.
Honestly, you probably could fill a wizard's slots with spells that don't care much about DC, like haste and darkness. I doubt necromancers and demonologists are going to be carrying that many dispel magics. What you do with the leftover stat points is anyone's guess. Pick up a CHA-scaling cantrip, I guess?
>>96657570Adding more ways for attributes, secondary or primary, to matter makes attributes as a whole matter more. Not less. You have a very shallow understanding of character building mechanics if you've made that kind of misunderstanding.
A gnome shouldn't be able to become stronger or even as strong as a minotaur, no matter how extraordinary, i.e., bioessentialism is good actually.
>>96657643Yeah, you always can just do that. Sort of why 2e got rid of bonus slots for stat maxxing, makes it easier to do off-brand builds like that.>>96657655But you aren't asking for more options for attributes to be used or substituted. Maybe I'm the blind one here, but I read>There is no reason a class cannot have alternative routes to similar levels of damage/support/utility output.as "Fireball and all other spells should have zero regards to your attributes. The spell should work the same for a Max INT Wizard as it does for a -2 INT Wizard". Which is just an awful idea on multiple levels. Ignoring the poaching/multiclassing balance issues, spells already feel disconnected for most players. The idea that magic is an independent entity that gives little regard to your actual training would mean that magic feels even less "tangible" to players. You are basically asking for magic to just be a bunch of trading cards and not a core part of a PC's identity and kit. And that just not how this space flies.>>96657700I don't know how many people actually like the very hardcoded size rules in 1e, especially when it is possible and pretty likely that you can get a bunch of buffs and magic items that make your base attributes look paltry by comparison. Maybe it makes it more satisfying to beat the odds, but at a certain level bioessentialism falls apart to the magical reality of Golarian.
>>96657700Goliath, meet David.
>>96657808>as "Fireball and all other spells should have zero regards to your attributes. The spell should work the same for a Max INT Wizard as it does for a -2 INT Wizard". Which is just an awful idea on multiple levels.My complaint is that wizards, like any other class, do not have a complete feature set for their stat table. Spell DCs mean that wizards' spell slots, a class feature that you automatically pay for when you pick the wizard class, become universally worse. A wizard who pumps STR instead of INT does not have any kind of class feature that offers equivalent value to what INT brings with spell DCs. This means that the class is feature-incomplete. A stat that does nothing is feature incomplete just like an open world with nothing in it is feature incomplete. Substitutions do not fix this problem, because all a substitution does is copy-paste one attribute's feature set to another. Archetypes fail at this as well, because they are balanced around accessorizing your class' main feature set instead of being an alternative to it.
>>96658245Spell DCs mean that wizards' spell slots, a class feature that you automatically pay for when you pick the wizard class, become universally worse when you don't pump INT.*
I don't understand why more systems don't use average-of instead of sum-of or best-of as a stat hybridization solution. Are they afraid of making players do division?
>>96658342Averaging is just summing with extra steps.
>>96658245>>96658270A class is of course "feature-incomplete". By default, a class excels at their niche, role, and/or kit. They offer nothing more than that, so of course they flounder in options or powers outside their wheelhouse. That is what it means to be a class, a defined suite of options, lessons, and experiences.You talk about the "DLC problem" inherent to Pathfinder (excusing that the monetary incentives of dividing classes like that is pretty small when all the rules are free), when reality that is a feature. Deliberately leaving holes in one class's options allows for other options to come in the future that can better do that job. Wrestle Wizard is a fun idea, but it makes more sense to create a Wrestle Wizard archetype or class than it does to force the square peg in that round hole. We already seen what happens when they do, both in 1e and in 2e.And I know we gotta agree to disagree on this, but you don't "pay for" spell slots picking a wizard. That implies there is a significant opportunity cost compared to others in its niche. not that it is the facilitator to being a caster in the system.>>96658342Outside of people just being bad at division, attributes by design aren't wide enough to form particularly unique blends. You likely to end up with a stat that is just 1 or 2 below the curve than if you were just to have a singular stat. So it wouldn't be any more interesting and overall weaker.
>>96658461>A class is of course "feature-incomplete". By default, a class excels at their niche, role, and/or kit. They offer nothing more than that, so of course they flounder in options or powers outside their wheelhouse. That is what it means to be a class, a defined suite of options, lessons, and experiences.A fighter lacking a use for INT is not a class feature, it is by definition a lack of a class feature. A fighter should have a fighter's use for INT, which is distinct from a wizard's use for INT, and either use of INT should present an equivalent amount of distinct gameplay features. That is what feature completeness means. Saying fighters are a rule are supposed to be dumb is as arbitrary as saying only rangers should be proficient in bows. You have no basis for that statement and are just making a generally incorrect claim of "less content is a good thing".And paying for wizard spell slots is an observable fact. You want to make a wrestle wizard? Have fun going into melee range with 6 base HP per level and a maximum AC proficiency of Expert. You paid for those spell slots in part with the fact that you are made out of glass, and picking an archetype or pumping CON is not going to fix that.
>>96650048maybe they thought "oh if you load it with blanks it'll rocket boost your punch!"but even blanks are dangerous, and assuming you did somehow perfectly detonate both shells with a single punch, there's no barrel to contain the gas expansion, so it would really just blow your hand off, even if they're blanks.
I´m close to starting a new campaing with my friends and party size got a bit out of control. I got 6 players with a possible 7th joining in the future. What should I know in order to keep things balanced and fun? I´m used to parties with 3 or 4 max so the number of players is worrying me
>>96658461Claiming class features don't have an associated opportunity cost is to claim that there's no concern for class power balance, that classes are just arbitrarily strong or weak based on whether their "role" is meant to be so. That would indeed explain why fighters and healers are so overpowered.
>>96658545Sure, I would like more feats and powers for classes to use other stats. But the nature of Skill Feats and Skills themselves are what fill in those gaps. They are nice to have, not that they "complete the class" to use. Gish options in full casters, bot good and bad, don't make for a "complete" caster kits, no more than mental options make for complete martial kits. They aren't trying to say Fighter is dumb, they are saying that most Fighters don't need INT to be a competitive class. If anything, the idea of a top-tier feat that requires you to be MAD to take/use it effectively feels...not 100% bad but definitely iffy, imo.>And paying for wizard spell slots is an observable fact. Again, have to agree to disagree with this, as I see spell slots as the basic means to function as this concept. Even in terms of defenses and the like, there are example of full martials like Thaumaturge and Investigator that are squishier than casters like Druid and Oracle. Wizard is sort of paying more for the *additional* spell slot above the base chassis of 3, but even then Animist and Starfinder2e classes like Witchwarper and Mystic have shown that is getting more looser (big reason why Wizards are weak at the moment, absolutely MOGGED by powercreep).>>96658675Again, it is hard to say that the notion of getting a full suite of spell slots has that much opportunity cost compared to the OTHER features casters get. When something like Animist or Witchwarper comes out with such a massive degree of feature creep, or Psychic and Necromancer losing out a spell per rank so they can focus on their own spells (ignoring that's what we are going to do be default, guys...) or even them relenting and giving Warpriest Master Attacks/Master Spellcasting with a full suite of spells + Divine Font (albeit super slow proficiency) I don't think Paizo values spell slots in the same way you and I are.
>>96658545There's a hidden bottleneck to class complexity, and that's roleplay difficulty and scenario-building difficulty. There is a subtle dependency in tabletop on semi-conventional character, behavior, and capability archetypes, because while having more build options sounds exciting, everything suddenly goes to shit when the encounter expects that the party's INT expert to be rolling skill checks while the front line holds off the enemy, but in your party the front line IS the INT expert. This is also why every class gives you roleplay suggestions, which inevitably get ignored. Deeply abstracting class building is a big burden on the GM. Writing classes as glorified adventure sub-modules is a compromise to keep things from getting too out of hand, and keep the game somewhat approachable to new players and GMs alike. There's nothing stopping anyone from designing more advanced classes or implementing variant rules if they're up to the challenge. The average table just running modules as-is and letting the game tell them what to do just aren't prepared for it.
>>96658803>games breaks and pisses itself and throws a tantrum when you arent playing predefined charactersthen maybe that's the games problem huh
>>96659304Name a class-based game that WOULDN'T shit itself if you try to avoid playing the class as written.
>>96659368At least in 1e there are plenty of ways to allow for someone to play against the class's usual type, a friend of mine once made a Punch Sorceror with the Orc bloodline to make his strength absurdly high so he could waltz into combat and wreck stuff with melee, then when enemies figured he was just a meathead he's surprise them with a (usually) acid based spell.
>>96658803>everything suddenly goes to shit when the encounter expects that the party's INT expert to be rolling skill checks while the front line holds off the enemy, but in your party the front line IS the INT expert.okay, so? roll the dice and let the party die. tell them to make better characters next time. These problems are all purely hypothetical.
>>96659404See but that's not what that dude is asking for, given that Punch Sorc came *at the expense* of the acid spell's efficiency, and that it is not a core addition or option to all Sorcerers. You should be able to use STR for punching AND casting, or that there is a STR option in Sorcerer kit that is as strong as the STR options in Fighter or Barbarian's kits. A sorcerer spell that runs off of STR.You see I'm getting a headache here.>>96659432Why is it THEIR FAULT you are the one sandbagging??
>>96659461I mean technically they did for a short period of time make a Witch archetype that did that. I think it was Scarred Witch that basically just gave you cart blanche on which ability score you could use your spellcasting with, which often led to people using Con and just amping their Con for no drawbacks?
>>96659304The thing is a tabletop "game" isn't technically a game. It's a platform for collaborative game development. APs aren't a cage that are keeping people from seeing the infinite possibilities of the setting, they're just a third party content package, and when content runs out you inevitably get a blank page. A blank page is infinitely more free but also infinitely more work. Some tropes and compartmentalization make collaboration process much smoother, because each person doesn't need to read an entire strategy guide about what each other person at the table's character can do to figure out their own role. The warrior does warrior things, the rogue does rogue things, the cleric does cleric things, and the wizard does wizard things. Stereotypes and derivative class gameplay keep the barriers to gameplay and content creation low. High powered games and variant rules like dual class are called such in part because you have to know a lot more about the game to know how to engage with them.
>>96658245>do not have a complete feature set for their stat tableYou're the only person I've ever seen with this nonsensical complaint. The idea that every class should have some equally viable use for every stat is completely alien to me.
>>96657428Stamina was a good idea when the mindset wasn't that your party would be at its best for EVERY encounter. Since that mindset is baked into the system now, it should just be characters heal to max and gain spells back after every combat for no real reason instead of having extra steps to reach the same outcome.
>>96659772This, players shouldn't get to allocate their own stats anyway. Every class should just auto-boost their class DC and saves every single level. Anyone that doesn't do this is an RPtard.
>>96659772Then what's the point of stats? Why not cut out the middleman and have each class's stats be automatically allocated? This practically happens already, with a few caveats for some str vs dex variations - It practically allocates itself, and if you deviate from the obvious you're trolling your group.
>>96659368D&D 4e had a ton of build variety, with each class having different scaling stats for different types of abilities allowing for sub-builds within each class.
>>96659909Also remove Finesse weapons from the game.
>>96659933>Then what's the point of stats? Why not cut out the middleman and have each class's stats be automatically allocated?It's almost like there's an entire Skill system that fleshes out your PCs encounter, downtime, and exploration option and helps establish their roles in the party. That the class, as big and central to your character's existence, isn't the end-all, be-all answer to every situation or character prescription.
>>96659909>>96659933I'm not saying that you can't have different builds within a class, but that the idea that every class should be able to equally use every stat is absurd. At that point you may as well just play a classless system. Classes are defined as much by what they aren't than by what they are.
>>96660028>build variety is good>no, not that much build variety!You're not making any kind of coherent argument and are arbitrarily critical of change. Warriors having a feature that scales on INT does not somehow mean that STR-based warriors vanish from existence.
>>96660019Skills, skill feats, and general feats follow the same pattern as archtypes: They exist to accessorize the intended class playstyle, not enable alternatives to it. Taking Athletics skill feats does not somehow make a Muscle Wizard good. They are there as a shared option pool for STR-based classes. If you go strength-athletics on a wizard you will be called a troll, because attributes are a false choice and you are not actually supposed to be making any choices on attribute bonus levels.
>>96660174Fighters do have a feat that scales off of INT. It's called Combat Assessment. There's your INT support on the fighter. If you want INT on your fighter you can take it. Or maybe go DEX/INT and archetype into Eldritch Archer later. Even still, you're not going to get as much mileage out of INT as a wizard. There's nothing wrong with that. Classes are allowed to have different focuses.
If a stat is useless by design on a certain class, then that class shouldn't even have access to that stat.You know, there's an idea - Each class should have access to different sets of attributes entirely, so that you can actually curate different builds with different choices instead of this nonsense.
>>96660232I misremembered eldritch archer as INT when it's CHA, oops. Not that your casting stat even matters for it really. Just messed up all around by including that bit.
How do I grab investigator archetype to use Devise a Stratagem without making my character cringe?
What race is this?I was thinking maybe an Aasimar, or a blue.But Pazio goblins are kinda ehmaybe theres something more?
>>96657342And this is like the eighth time I've confused Edge of Tomorrow with Tomorrow Never Dies. WTF. I wonder if my brain tries to write Edge of Tomorrow and All You Need Is Kill at the same time and combines them.
>>96660720Dark skin like that gives me Fetchling vibes.
>>96657459I think Crimson-Eyed Demons are kind of Sorcerers by definition since they were genetically engineered to be good at magic and their "wizard academy" consists of the adults subduing and bringing back monsters for the kids to kill so they can power level.
>>96660759Agathion-Blooded Fetchling? for tail
>>96657836I thought David the Gnome fought things by summoning wolves and foxes.
>>96660769I could see it
>>96660720Monkey Goblin
I posted this last thread but got no answer.By its text, the 8th rank spell "migration" gives the whole party a 40ft move speed in all move speeds including flight and burrow. It says you can spend an action to turn into an appropriate creature for the area and type of movement but it doesn't say that you have to, all of this as is written works in combat during initiative in the PC's usual form. Migration is a remastered wind walk which explicitly is not something that works in a fight, it turns people into gas and the spell ends if anyone fucks around.Is the way they worded migration a huge mistake that they've never bothered to acknowledge or is this just a holy grail that's exclusively on the primal list? Don't tell me this is normal high level magic, not even the fly spell ever becomes aoe and nothing from higher ranks is even close to letting everyone in a team either fly or burrow to avoid harm freely.
so I have all of 1st ed PF pdfsive been reading through all the APs for inspiration and ideason to the modules: which ones are really good / do you recommend reading first?
>>96661135>The targets naturally take on animal forms most fitting their movement and environment.The first sentence implies that it's the animal forms that have the movement, and the last bit about switching back and forth seems to follow that logic. It should probably just say 'transforms' instead of 'can transform' to leave out any ambiguity.
>>96660720If 2e, could try Wayang with Proteankin (Ganzi) Nephilim VH.
>>96661151fist of ruby phoenix
