Back in AD&D there could be only a single high level Druid. Nobody else could advance until the one holding the title passed away.These weird tidbits of lore reflected in rules are like fragments of a soul that nu-D&D is missing.
>>96666984That doesn't sound fun at all. What similar rules were there?
>>96666984>>96666995Rangers also had a strict pyramidal hierarchy, iirc, and there could only be 1 Ranger Lord or whatever in a forest. Ah, AD&D... so much sovl and so much eclectic kruft.
>>96666995>That doesn't sound fun at all.t. plays a femboy tiefling paladin
>>96667414I would fuck a femboy tiefling paladin
>>96667414Nuh uh, shes a female Tiefling Warlock
>>96666984Maybe it's not exactly a self-entitlement problem, but it's something close to that I think."I want to be/have X", and anything to the contrary is just seen as a barrier to fun, with no concern to how more compelling the game as a whole remains with certain limitations in place.Maybe it's a good limitation, maybe it's not, that can be argued, but to argue against limitation in themselves is nonsense, because that's just what games are.
>>96666984IIRC it wasn't just the highest level, it was like"Only 30 Druids of Level 10 or 11, only 6 of Level 12 or 13, only one Leven 14 in the entire fucking world". IIRC they could retire but had to drop down in level.
>>96667482>"Only 30 Druids of Level 10 or 11, only 6 of Level 12 or 13, only one Leven 14 in the entire fucking world"Sounds like an assassin cult or something. "Sure you can level up, you just have to off the guy above you since we're running on a strict limit."
>>96667508Old DnD was very focused around built-in organizations as classes. Rangers for instance were not just random dudes who walked around in the forest but LOTR-style professional peacekeepers and scouts that trained together as their own specialized military force. Druids were more like real life druids, masters of half-remembered lores and secrets of nature, but they were still a monastic order, not random people who were very good with animals like modern DnD. Gaining levels was like ascending the ranks of these organizations, and usually conferred benefits befitting your new rank. Or if a class was organization-agnostic, like Fighters, you'd still get things like a castle, a staff of servants, a seneschal, and a small standing army to call your own once you reached the appropriate level. It was pretty cool honestly to have all these features built into a class. It really made it feel like you were part of a bigger world when you leveled up and gained fame and recognition for it, as well as valuable assets.
>>96666984T R A S H
>>96667475But it isn't compelling at all. If I want such a limitation in my setting, I'll include it. There's no reason it should be mandatory for every game.
>>96667641Then you can play a game other than D&D.
>>96667414I wish I had the balls to play a femboy paladin
>>96667641People homebrew it away or completely forgot about it, like the process to become a bard.The old style was having a ton of concepts you could take away instead of giving you nothing and telling you to finish the thing yourself.
>>96668530That would be a good idea. Why on earth would anyone willingly play D&D? The only reason I can see is that it's easier to find games for. But once you find a solid group, why bother?
Every time I see someone bitching about restrictions, I ask, as earnest as possible: would you like to play as a level 20 character with every ability 18 and every magic item at you disposal right now? I will allow it.Every single time they deny the offer and embrace the challenges. You have to bore them with infinite power first so they enjoy the struggle later.
>>96667482>IIRC they could retire but had to drop down in levelLosing a level happened when two druids had to fight for a position in the hierarchy and the challenger won. The challenger would lose all their XP to gain that level if they lost.The "retirement" you're thinking of is druids becoming hierophants, where they basically forfeited all responsibilities in the order, all their XP, and became immortal elemental planeswalkers by level 20. The XP requirement for gaining your first level as a hierophant is greatly reduced, but 500,000 is still nothing to sniff at.
>>96667524>Druids were more like real life druids, masters of half-remembered lores and secrets of nature, but they were still a monastic order, not random people who were very good with animals like modern DnD.Yeah.I think the thing about druids is that they weren't supposed to be global back then. They were a specialty priesthood. Cleric wasn't really as generic as people take it to be now back then, and DMs were supposed to tailor Priest Classes to their world and religions, and druids were supposed to be a specific single example. I don't know if other settings did it but FR had a specialty priest for just about every deity (although some were fairly low effort and I don't think a lot of them were really anything more beyond cleric +/- or paladin +/-).So as weird as it might seem today for people who into the game post 3.x to only have x number of y level druids, it's because you weren't supposed to be able to meet one on every continent and in every city.
>>96668764>is greatly reducedA Lv20 druid will have a total of 5.5million earned EXP, double that of a cleric of the same level. The tradeoff is that they level fast and then become outright glacial. That said it is viable to simply remain as a grand druid and benefit from those sweet six spell slots per level. Four levels don't mean jack shit in 2e, especially for clerics.
>>96666984It was a fun plot point for my druid. Had my entire party and all the NPCs we befriended rooting for me as I repeatedly challenged a higher-level druid before I finally kicked his butt. The DM did a great job of making him frustratingly smug so finally winning was cathartic.
Correct. There can be only one Archmage. I don’t care if you’re a wizard or a druid or a warlock or a blorg.
>>96666984>>96667350The truth is that barely anyone played the game like that. Most people just played B/X with AD&D shit taken in as needed and without the racial level limits.
>>96668530No, I'll play d&d and I'll design my setting however I want.
>>96668699It's simply bad game design and no analogy will change that.
>>96670163Wrong.
>>96666984You are correct about it being a source of missing sovl.But I feel like this individual instance was bad design.You should be able to fuck off and gain power on your own and not care about a hierarchy. It's not like fighters have to join the royal army or wizards have to become a tenured professor.>>96669027Druid wasn't the only class with rules like that. Monk, and as someone else already stated Ranger had similar rules.
>>96666984did she fuck the monkeys though?
>>96667641what do you mean, mandatory? you know that if you don't want it you can just exclude it, right?
>>96671387Shouldn't be in the book as the default, obviously.
>>96671753Except that just results in the basic rules and setting being as bland and boring as fuck. It's much easier for any given GM to toss out any limitations than it is to add these sorts of subsystems and restrictions.
>>96671011your mom clearly did
>>96671753You can't really have a rulebook without some kind of default.
>>96670756...how is it bad game design to have limitations?
>>96666984F
>>96672208yeah but only the rules he likes should be default
>>96666995>That doesn't sound fun at all.The point of those silly little rules were to frame your character's career choice as complicated. You're going to feel the weight of being a Wizard much more if you're expected to build a wizard tower at level 10 (which many systems used to do) and, I mean let's be frank here; if you're a level 15 Druid, by that point in the campaign you *should* have met Big Druid. What the fuck are you doing?
>>96671892Except nothing.
>>96672898yeah the point is that's dumb and gay try to keep up FAGGOT
>>96671892You can define the exclusivity as an option modifying a very open and loose baseline, like most of the rest of the Specialty Clerics.
>>96666984So did she have sex with a monkey or not?
>>96666984Turns out restrictions make the game more interesting.
>>96672978>yeah the point is that's dumb and gay try to keep up FAGGOTYou can't call me that word, that's our word.
>>96670767No. Not wrong.
>>96666984Historical accuracy: that's stupid. Lore for nitwits: that's badass. Lore for bigbrains: if the people involved in druidism kill each other for the only chief position, there wouldn't be apprentices and no relevant information about The Druid position because if there was info about how to become The Druid, the current The Druid would be The Fucking Stupid Druid.
>>96666995Well you are wrong.
>>96666984AD&D sounds pretty fuckin soul. The only thing I'm aware of from that time is that Paladins were human only Fighters with strict stat requirements and that Fighters used to get tons of bodies but somehow meleefags were gaslit into losing that as a standard and yet most mage classes get familiars, animal companions, Eidolons or Summon X spells meaning the argument for minimizing DM busywork was full of shit.
>>96673574>Fighters used to get tons of bodies but somehow meleefags were gaslit into losing that as a standard and yet most mage classes get familiars, animal companions, Eidolons or Summon X spells meaning the argument for minimizing DM busywork was full of shit.Yeah it was always bullshit. Imagine having to spend a feat on Leadership and then spend XP to recruit a lesser companion just so you can be the boss of a single dude as a Fighter. Wizards just get all that shit for free
>>96673599It really does feel out of place. A feat for a dude when everyone else gets them for free is crazy.
>>96673574Smart level 1 fighters spent their starting money on a squad of dudes with clubs and slings. The game was lit as long as you were playing with people who would read the fucking rules.
>>96666984>that image>that text…she’s dead, isn’t she? What a way to find out.
>>96673664Is this a thing with hirelings or something? I only know PF1e so I'm not sure if what you are referring to is a class feature or just basic rules from earlier editions.
>>96673683Yes, the hireling rules. When it comes to men at arms the fighter has a distinct advantage over other classes in how many men at arms they can hire. That advantage grows as the fighter levels.
>>96671011I love the story behind this one.>In 1987, cartoonist Gary Larson published a strip where two chimps grooming each other remark on “that Jane Goodall tramp.” Cue outrage. A Goodall Institute colleague fired off letters calling the cartoon “offensive” and “inexcusable.” But Jane? She thought it was hilarious. “Wow. Real fame at last. Fancy being in a Gary Larson cartoon.”>Not only did she defend Larson, but a year later, he and his wife visited her in Gombe. Larson famously had a run-in with a particularly aggressive chimp named Frodo (as Jane later wrote with her wry humor, “Frodo didn’t quite share my enthusiasm for cartoonists”). Eventually, Jane even wrote the foreword to one of The Far Side anthologies in 1995, forever cementing their unlikely friendship.
>>96673683hirelings yes, basic rules (which pf1e also has)an ad&d character can pay 1 gp a week per other basic soldier, while a pf1e character pays the same price for 2 days
>>96673050Nah, that would be gross, but she probably watched them every once in a while.
>>96666995It could be fun, because if you wanted to be the next High Druid, you fought the old one. High level druid fights were great fun and pretty challenging, especially if your DM insisted you had to do it alone and without destroying the forest in the process with fire and lightning.. You had to show that your Druid was a better and stronger Protector.
>>96673121Good restrictions do.
>>96673297Wrong.
>>96673599Pick a real class then DUMBASS
>>96673725Hell yeah, I love playing a bunch of guys I don't care about instead of my character. Retarded nigger lol
>>96666995Depended on the DM and the campaign you were playing. If your character was a wandering vagabond, you had not real interactions, but if your DM was good, you could do things like having your thief start up or take over a city Thieves Guild, bandit gang, pirate ship or crime organisation. Fighters could either settle down on land granted to them by a king, head out into the wild lands and create their own barony from scratch, or start a mercenary battalion and fight in wars. Wizards could do the same with a wizardly enclave, magical research college or raise a small cadre of Mage Mercenaries and specialists, Clerics could do the same (but with a church/temple), go on crusades to conqour lands from 'the evil ones', or do whatever goals their gods set them (each god had an agenda). Early games were quite often about being part of a bigger world, growing in fame, power and influence, not just killing things for loot and xp.
>>96673050>>96672182
>>96674322You are playing the role of a commander of men at arms dip shit.
>>96673434it's not a chief position, it's a power increase
>>96671892You can include rules while stating it's an optional one anon
In MY setting, I don’t do it by class but I have something similar. There are a handful of masters who, whether for reasons of aptitude, tradition, or limited resources, train a single disciple in their art. Just learning something from these masters would give you some renown, and becoming their disciple proper would instantly make you an important figure in the world. You usually inherit their title too. The same applies to a few legendary artifacts.
>>96674520Druids in AD&D are like a pack of wolves.
>>96666984Wow that sounds gay and lame. End yourself.
>>96674795Retarded zoomcuck
>>96674808Swing and a miss, faggot. Keep on gargling that withered EGG cock. I'm sure it's turning you into a TRVE GAMER
>>96674572wolves don't suddenly get physically stronger or better at hunting when they become alpha in the debunked wolf social theory
>>96674547wow, just like my degenerated chinaman xianxias
>>96674322you are retarded and your shit stinks. You are the reason why DnD has been dumbed down so hard
>>96666995Elf wasn't a race, it was a class.
>>96674823Sorry I don't speak brainrot, kill yourself before you get cucked to death zoomer.
>>96666995For the assassin class, you couldn't actually level past 14h UNLESS you killed (because you're an assassin) the current leader of the guild of assassins.
>>96666995Extra Strength: Fighters with 18 Strength rolled percentile dice for “18/01–00,” giving granular differences between two people both listed as “Strength 18.”
>>96666995Training costs: To level up, you had to pay gold to a higher-level trainer, usually as much as the treasure you just acquired.This is why morrowind (inspired by D&D) has trainers who will, if given enough money, "level up" your character.
>>96666995Here's a few off the top of my head.>Paladin restriction: Only Lawful Good fighters with exceptional ability scores could become paladins, and the class was limited to one per party in some interpretations.>Level titles: Each class level had a title (e.g., a 2nd-level thief was a “Footpad,” a 3rd-level monk was a “Brother”), producing odd titles like “Lord,” “Necromancer,” “Swashbuckler.”>Psionics lottery: “Roll percentile at character creation. If lucky, you have psychic powers. If unlucky, forget psionics even exists.”>Both Gnomes and Dwarves have a hit re-roll ability if they sneeze during combat (both the player character and the player)>Different XP tables: Every class leveled at different rates. A thief hit level 10 while a magic-user was still crawling to level 6.>Fighter shoe rule: Fighters who wear one shoe instead of two receives -2 AC but +2 damage, because they are assumed to fight angrier / use pain as motivation.>Seasonal Alignment for Elves>Elves automatically shift alignment based on the “Tree Mod” table, which is different per season.>Disease and parasites: The rules included lengthy systems for catching diseases or being infested by rot grubs and ear seekers.
>>96675126>>Different XP tablesSOVL
>>96667451We know, faggot.
>>96674322Okay, so don't play as a fighter. Not every class will be enjoyable for everyone. It's okay that you don't enjoy fighter.
DIAMONDS
>>96670940It also raises a bunch of questions if your campaign has adventures outside a specific local. If you're adventuring in a far off land and your druid levels up, are the local druids going to let him have his cage match since he's obviously just visiting? If they do, are his home druids going recognize it? If they don't does that mean he immediately loses his level until he wins the fight against one of his own order? If he doesn't is he going to automatically regain those levels if he goes back to that far off land again? It's this very meta mechanic designed to explicitly exist in-universe that, as written, completely falls apart when you start thinking about it. It's one thing being denied in-universe objects based on in-universe standing, it's another to have in-universe standing alter the base mechanics of gameplay.
>>96673574>>96673599What's really fucking annoying is how commanding warriors is now not being relegated to the dedicated warrior classes. Shit like pathfinder is putting out these tactician classes instead of letting the fighting man be actually inspiring in the battlefield. Not only must you spend feats and XP, but you MUST be wholly dedicated to it and be a worse fighter overall.The WHOLE fucking idea is to be the Point man of your retinue, not the Bannerman. From antiquity to late medieval we had kings fighting and dying in combat. Leading from their horse. Taking names just as much as their Companions or men-at-arms. As someone who mainly plays warriors, this shit is just so tiring.
>>96675077It's honestly one of my favorite mechanics in Morrowind, gives a reasonable way to spend the fuck you amounts of money you earn. I once ran a campaign with gold as XP (you had to sacrifice that gold) and I loved it, though I feel like the players weren't as enthusiastic about it.
>>96670940>its not like fighters have to join the royal armyActually, they do. In these editions, hitting your Name Level as a fighter makes you eligible for lordship, people start flocking to you for protection so you have to levy troops & be on the king's speed dial>its not like wizards have to be a tenured professorWizard is probably the least restrictive. I think there is an option to build a tower or some shit. But its not as hard-coded into it as other classes>cleric was expected to actually be a preacher & try to establish a church>monk was supposed to be poor or they cant keep being monks>paladins I recall being more open like a wizard but you'll inevitably follow around some cleric>rogues join the thieves guild, and even can make their own cell at a certain level I believe. The built-in thieves guild kicks fucking ass.
>>96677993Sorry for doublepost but I also wanted to bring this point upIn the editions where druid had to do this, they can blast through the mid levels. Statistically, your druid WILL be the first player to reach their "obligation" levels. There WILL be excessive bitching & moaning from the player who has, up to this point, completely solo'd any content where roofs arent involved.Considering druids are just massively powerleveled from about 4-8, I feel like every group has run into this problem specifically with the druid. I have never seen someone complain about the fighters lordship or the thieves guild. But its harder to get to the levels where those obligations matter, so I wonder how many groups have even dealt with lordship & the like>tldr, the druid complaint is massively over represented. It has to be because druids level fast as shit in these editions, so he'll always be the first player to deal with his Name Level obligations
>>96675819It has been a long time since I played AD&D but I don't think that the Druid hierarchy is per region, but for the entire world.
>>96678124what if you go to another world then
>>96678192The rank would still be held, though I could see a danger in there being a perception of the position being considered vacant.
>>96678124yeah because druids weren't a worldwide order, they were concentrated mainly around Gaul, Albion, and Ireland, and they weren't particularly numerous even when they were still around, with druids normally being rare sights in the native community that would only show up to drink, gamble, and fuck the village whore. And if you treated them poorly or turned them away for being annoying assholes, they'd curse your village and your bloodline with a hundred years of ill fortune. This is one of those things where ADnD based its rules around real world history rather than trying to create a fantasy version of things, although it didn't correctly portray them as they really were in surviving legends and folk tales, so it's accurate only in some ways. Of course, reliable information on the druids was much harder to come by back then as well, especially for Americans.
>>96678256what if you market your world as the place where any druid can get to max level because you kick the previous one out afterwards every time, high level adventurers like that should be able to pay a lot for a service like this
>>96666984>>96667350> You can't be more skilled than you previously were until you kill your boss...or they die some other way.What kind of dumb Cubicle-Boomer world view is that.
>>96675126>>Psionics lottery: “Roll percentile at character creation. If lucky, you have psychic powers. If unlucky, forget psionics even exists.”>I must be in control of every aspect of my character's life
>>96678585Druids are a subclass of Clerics, it's literally nature's mandate that you cannot get any stronger.
>>96674843Or like in real life
>>96678585you can't be the silverback until you dominate the current silverback, they follow the law of the jungle because they are druids
>>96673246Alright faggot, you little princess, try and take it back from me.
>>96675126>>Different XP tables: Every class leveled at different rates. A thief hit level 10 while a magic-user was still crawling to level 6.This makes sense. It doesn't really make sense that a level 1 wizard (like you said with the level titles, some retarded apprentice dumbfuck), can cast a fireball. Needs more training.
>>96666984I used to hate these kind of in-built "flavors" because what if I don't have that lore in my super special homebrew world? What if my Dwarves don't live in mountains and use so-and-so type of weapons?But then I grew a brain, a spine, and a heart and now I think it's cool.
>>96679825Still better to have the loose generic case as the default then specify these things as divergences from them, to maximize rubbing in the homebrew hooks.
>>96677993Paladins had to give away most of their income (9/10) to the church and had limitations on the quantity of magic items they can possess.In exchange they are popes top guy, get magical mount (2% chance of rolling HOLY OLIPHANT) and access to holy avengers, the most powerfull magic weapons.
>hit die caps at level 9-10
>>96666984>These weird tidbits of lore reflected in rules are like fragments of a soul that nu-D&D is missing.Desperate, aren/t you? Here, grab a (You)
>>96678678>t. rolled well in psionics lottery
>>96680756Thems the breaks, kid
