>>96700367
Do it because you care about it, or don't do it if it's a hassle

>>96700400
I do care about it but it sucks knowing that a lot of that effort will go to nothing. It's for me, not the players. And it makes me wonder if it actually really matters, especially because after this campaign I'll get perfectionistic about the setting and end up discarding it for a new one for my next campaign, throwing away the few good ideas I have in the process.

Also, because the different editions of D&D and D&D-adjacent fantasy games have entirely different expectations for a setting, I have to make a different setting for my ACKS, Pathfinder, and 5e games, and split my limited creative capital as a burnt-out 30-something between them.

>>96700414
>I do care about it but it sucks knowing that a lot of that effort will go to nothing.
If you enjoy doing it, it's not for nothing. You do it because you enjoy doing it.

Also, why are you running 3 games? That sounds like an entirely different problem to the world building thing. It's a hobby; if you're not having fun you need to rethink your relationship to it.

>>96700414
You're playing a game with your friends, my man. Unless you're being paid for it, you're all doing this for fun. So why not enjoy yourself a little?

This is why i only run games in well known franchise settings now, whenever i play a homebrew world its just endless questions about basic facets of the world and not much fun

>>96700367
> >even if I "show don't tell" e.g. "you see some carts of lumber passing by as you walk to [town famous for lumber industry]" they'll forget it soon after
because it's FORGETABLE

>>96700367
>>realize that no one will really give a fuck about the population of this town or its industry
Let me guess, you're doing milestones. With XP per kill population sizes always matter, because that's the upper limit of how much you can squeeze out of the place.

>>96700367
Why would you screenshot such bait?

>>96700367
I do worldbuilding to amuse myself, and sometimes players ask questions and it becomes useful. The secret is not pushing it and doing it just because you enjoy the exercise.

>>96700639
This, unfortunately. It's so much easier to just use something the players have already assimilated. We all know Fallout? OK, it's a Fallout game. Done and done. I will sometimes do tweaks and changes, but starting with a prefab universe makes everything so much easier.
I hate it, but the convenience is so sweet.

>>96700463
I'm having fun but my relationship to worldbuilding has turned into "spread my few good ideas over multiple worlds." And it's hard to combine them all.
Running 3 campaigns isn't a problem. I don't even run all of them every week. It's been almost a year of this and only run about 25 sessions between the three of them.

>>96700367
Do i as a player have any reason to care or remember a towns population? Do i have to care that town XYZ is famous for lumber? Is its lumber in any way, shape or form relevant to our adventures? Will i stumble upon "bow made of high quality lumber from TOWN X" in a totally different city? Will a local noble make a offhand comment about how his rivals fancy new furniture is from town X?

>>96700756
>Why would you screenshot such bait?
Because the sentiment, if not the actual words, hit home.

>>96700693
True, but see the my second point about the more "memorable" parts of my world.
>"wow here's this really badass faction you can see them being badass at the end of his adventure after you beat the evil orc lord they show up to mop up"
And no one even cares. They only are about the stuff directly related to the adventure. They want to kill shit and level up.
>>96700712
>Let me guess, you're doing milestones. With XP per kill population sizes always matter, because that's the upper limit of how much you can squeeze out of the place.
LMAO. No I am doing XP per kill, or gold for XP. With the latter, they actually care more because it lets them know where they can actually sell stuff.

>>96700867
exactly bro
It's just that that fact makes me feel sad.

>>96700784
I do enjoy the exercise. Maybe I am just overwhelmed by the amount of worldbuilding I have to do. I have 3 different "worlds" about 10k square miles each and only a couple towns feel developed.

>>96700867
This sort of passive-playing normie mindset is why ttrpgs suck so much
>Do I care about how many people live in the town
That's how many people you can tax if you conquer it
>Do I care that it is famous for lumber
Now you know a good source of lumber for siege engines
>Is lumber going to be relevant to our adventures
That's for (you) to decide, retardo

>>96700367
>I have a real life with a career
Does this faggot know how many people made good careers off crafting fictional worlds?

>>96701030
Yes, it says so right there. He's (rightfully) not going to do it for free when there are already pros doing it for him.

>>96700367
The secret to good worldbuilding is to have it be FUCKING RELEVANT.

>>96700367
No, the players WILL care about my spreadsheets of rye crop yield and trade value over the last 20 years

>>96700367
Be autist.
Play in a game with other Autists.
DM is Autist who literally has hundreds of handouts worth of worldbuilding on the setting.
Flavoured as a magical scrap-book of holding that comprises of the notes of previous adventuring parties.
Everything is interconnected, including other campaigns with entirely different groups having ripple effects.
We clear a dungeon full of oozes, fungus and a zombie beholder.
Turned out this was a higher level dungeon that another party had cleared years ago.
We show up at a ghost town haunted by the spectres of a city who could not pass on, everyone becomes ghost/banshee.
They claim that a necromancers relic from not-tomb-king-egyptions was the source, multiple factions of ghosts in the town.
We eventually ally with Brother Busken, one of the ghostly priests and recover the relic allowing them to pass on.
Two weeks later, we realise "Brother Busken" was the author of about a dozen handouts and would have been a treasure trove of info.
Another campaign we are following in the footsteps of the beloved archmage of the city.
As it goes on, the more we learn, the more he becomes increasingly shady. Turns out he is actually some Space-Elf Star-Emperor who rules planets.
Turns out he changed his name regularly while on our world, and about three of the "Legendary Wizards" from around the world were all him.
Dots start connecting, ancient irelevant handouts suddenly have deep meaning. Legends of a Bard who travelled with X wizard now make sense in the context of Y. The Kingdom was settled on the advice of Y Wizard, King Z went insane under the court of Wizard Z, The current Queen is growing more erratic under the court of Witch Y, Our Warlocks Patron was enslaved by Ancient Mage Q, It's all connected, it's all the same guy, we could have solved the campaign if we connected the dots that had been in front of us for years.
Everything is connected. Worldbuilding is a tapestry.

Feels good to be autistic.

>>96700367
Know how Warhammer 40k is a game, but the real hobby is building and painting models?

TTRPGs are a game that we play together. For a lot of GMs, world-building is the part of the hobby that we do for ourselves, by ourselves. We just enjoy it. If you don't? You really don't need to, to enjoy playing the game. It's not the same thing as playing the game. It's not necessitated by playing the game. World-build if you wanna, for you, because you have fun doing it. If you don't? Don't.

>>96700693
ESL

>>96700952
Look the question is - do you enjoy worldbuilding, yes or no? If you don't, great. Have your players eat the corporate slop. If you do, also great. You're doing it for yourself.

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tfw my worldbuilding includes multiple currencies for multiple cultures. It's not super relevant but can provide contextual clues.

Rogues guild payment includes a few Platinum Phennigs, which is the coinage used in the underdark primarily between Drauger and Drow cultures, occasionally makes it to the surface in the hands of slavers, pirates and assassins.

A local vagabond pays in Silver Drachma, an old coin used by the Therosians far, far west, their only settlement in the area was the Marble City, an island port overrun with Medusa when the queen transformed into a matriarch and turned everyone to stone. The island is a goldmine for anyone skilled enough to evade the gorgons to pillage the manors so this guy is either a master thief or one of the gorgons informants.

Dwarven caravaneers are in uproar as they are paid in gold coins, human gold coins that is. Dwarves don't consider human currency to be worth it's weight, as Dwarven Geltril are twice the size and made of pure gold lending to them being worth five times as much as human currency.

A merchant refuses payment in Leomunds Electrum Pieces, a form of currency traded amoungst mages. He insists that those coins aren't minted and are just made of magic and it's not real money, it's just made up nonsense. He is correct.

Most of the time the players just ask "Can I put this down on my sheet as 200 gold then?" and I say sure, but some of them keep track of what currencies they have, particularly the more interesting ones.

>>96700367
The only way to make them care is if it becomes relevant to them. Nobody cares about a town famous for lumber unless it also means that the wizard can get a staff carved from a special type of wood that makes their spells better, or the same thing with a ranger and bows/arrows.
The natural spring which is a portal to the plane of water is also only likely to seem relevant if there are water elementals pouring out of it to attack people, or if the players end up with ownership of it and can actually do something valuable with it.

If the most you have to say to them is "these people have a natural resource, no you can't have it, no they don't need any help with it", then obvious the players won't care what the resource actually is.

>>96700836
Rip yourself off. Or set your games in different eras of the same world. Or, get this: just rip yourself off.

>>96700367
>run a campaign
>"I can fudge the fine details, it's not that important"
>players: "what is the population of this town? What are its principle industries?"
>"how does the legal system work? What tariffs are there? How do they get fresh water up to the castle?'
The duality of man.

>>96701345
This, I guess.

>>96700961
>I have 3 different "worlds" about 10k square miles each and only a couple towns feel developed.

You need to read a -Without Number book. You're doing more prep than you need to do, and you're not enjoying it. Why are you prepping 30k square miles of play space between three different worlds, when you don't enjoy it? Crawford's tools and philosophy are all about working from board strokes down to specifics. You might need to know that there are 6 different polities on your continent, but you don't need more than an elevator pitch for each one until your players become directly involved with them. You only need the town that they are in, the town that they are going to, and any points of interest in between those two points to start out with. Only do as much prep as you absolutely need to run the game, then do more if you want to and *only* it you want to.

>>96700367
>i need validation from other people in order to enjoy things
ngmi

>>96700367
Worldbuilding is a hobby related to tabletop games, but isn't the whole of gaming. If you enjoy it, do it. If not, don't. It's that fucking simple.
Not to tangent, but I'm autistic so fuck you, but the fags who bitch about worldbuilding threads and lie about them never going anywhere are just people who don't enjoy worlbuilding and lack the cognitive awareness needed to understand that not everyone is like them.

>>96700414
>One session pretty unprepared
>Just make some goblins jump out of the bushes and fight them
>"Ohh man that was my favorite session so far hahah gg guys damn!"

>>96700367
>>96700414
World building, even for things players don't see informs your setting.
They might not care about why the dead orks carried white claws, but you know that it's to ward off an evil mountain spirit the players are now going to encounter.

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>>96700367

Don't follow writing advice. Most of the people who'll give you that kind of advice haven't published any best sellers of their own, they just parrot what they heard at a literature course imparted by someone who doesn't have any published best sellers of their own, a youtube video or a reddit post made by someone with no published best sellers of their own .

Besides, playing an RPG is not writing. You're not "telling a story together", you have no obligation to have any sort of "character development", your "fleshed-out backstory" will be irrelevant once the game starts, the campaign probably won't last long enough to tie in all "character arcs" and personal quests to the "main plot" to defeat the BBEG (assuming, of course, they are still alive). There is no "plot" here. RPGs lean towards a sandbox with sidequests and missions that players can choose to opt in or out of. Just come up with basic ideas for characters, places and quests, let them develop as you go.

Don't try to force an epic or memorable moment; those things should happen on their own, spontaneously, being the product of what players and master actually did as opposed to your plans (which rarely if ever turn out the way you expect anyway). That's like going out with your friends intending to have the best night of your life, memorable anecdotes and going on dates with the idea of meeting the love of your life; that should happen to you while you were too busy living and having fun.

Limit your worldbuilding to writing what you WANT to write. Have fun but don't infodump your players unless they ask or it is necessary for the game.

BTW the guy on your pic is trolling.

Even if your players will literally never see it, having a well thought out world really helps, in my experience, to find your footing when making a story for someone else to play through.

It's actually just as bad if the players pay too much attention and know too much about the setting. Say you forget some crucial detail about the town they're visiting, but they didn't forget, they'll know you messed up and gave them a botched experience of the town they've read twelve books about.

>>96700367
>>plan to do some more worldbuilding
Worldbuild and pay attention to the details your players care about? Like how plump are the butts?

>>96701030
You don't understand anon, he has a WIFE and CHILDREN. He has a CAREER. He's a REAL MAN™.

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>>96700367
Turn it into a campaign module to print / download and share / sell it to other people.

Congratulations, you got people to care about your fantasy world.

>>96700367
I feel like the more I know about my own world, the more I can give the illusion it’s real. Sure, population might never come up, but have your general ideas and if the question comes up, you’re prepared. Like I’m working on other continents in my world, but only in theory like general knowledge. “Here there be Dragonborn.” “Lot of volcanoes here.” Think about how mind blowing it would be if a DM had all these answers.

TL;DR it’s a neat party trick to know a lot about your homebrew world.

>>96701030
I know this may come as a surprise to you, seeing as you're new to the internet and all, but sometimes people say things they don't mean, or "lie" on the internet to make other people mad. They create stupid fake arguments that no real person would ever utter, and then insist they legitimately hold those beliefs, maybe arguing with you about them for hours at a time. And then, when you're frothing at the mouth over it, they have themselves a good chuckle and do it again. This is called "trolling" and it is a art. Well, its not really anymore, but it used to be.

>>96703410
good point

>>96703170
Yeah I've been trying to think it out as well as possible, have cities and towns near rivers and stuff, add little details and shit, even if it's just lore in passing. It does help add to the story but also I feel like the more I add the more I box myself in.

>tfw have to do autistic concrete world building ( though really I just used an application to generate cities and locales like I was running analog Daggerfall ) because my dumbass players will say shit like "I want to buy 12 war dogs" and I need to be able to tell them "kennelmaster only has 3" and I don't want to arbitrarily tell them no.

>>96704280
My players and I have an understanding. I’ll make shit up, but I’m always fair. If there’s a contradiction and they catch me in it, they get a free little buff (inspiration or a small discount)

>>96700367
You do that 70% for your own amusement, and also for the 30% chance that these elements may actually serve a function. Tiny details can matter.

>>96700414
>end up discarding it for a new one for my next campaign
>not using the same setting for all of your games
ngmi

>>96700952
>the sentiment... hit home
The sentiment is "don't create, only consoom" and you're an idiot for falling for it.

>>96705733
>>96700952
>written, developed and tested by actual real writers
Having read what most professional writers produce, nah I'm good, I'm no tolkien or stoker, but no character I've made im0tv8s a Rudi

>>96703128
>Don't follow writing advice. Most of the people who'll give you that kind of advice haven't published any best sellers of their own, they just parrot what they heard at a literature course imparted by someone who doesn't have any published best sellers of their own, a youtube video or a reddit post made by someone with no published best sellers of their own .
Yeah, just read Stephen King's On Writing, where he doesn't actually teach you how to write.

My world anvil has a bunch of useless information, but just writing it down solidifies it in my mind and makes me more confident about my home brew world in every way.

>>96700367
I don't give a fuck about other people not giving a fuck, I do worldbuilding because I thoroughly enjoy it.
>that screencap
I know it's ragebait but cringed anyway

>>96700367
Plenty of people in the past have turned personal worldbuilding for one project into books and films and all sorts of extrapolated Media. Who knows what some good worldbuilding might allow you to use it for in the future?

>>96700367
>worldbuilding is when you meticulously plot out minutia and microscopic details and history and other fiddly shit that no one will ever engage with
Worldbuilding isn't the problem. The problem is that you think autistic wikipedia editor behavior is worldbuilding.

>>96700367
If your players don't give a shit about the setting of the game, but you do, then maybe you should find different players who will help you facilitate an experience that's fun for you AND them.

>>96700367
Who are you quoting?

>>96700367
So instead of spending effort on shit you know nobody cares about, why don't you spend effort on shit they do care about, like dungeons and monsters and treasure? You know, the fucking game they were invited to participate in?

>>96700414
You don't have to make settings at all.

>>96700952
If no one cares, then it isn't fucking memorable, retard! You don't get to decide what your players find interesting. Notice how you said "they want to kill shit and level up"? THEN SPEND YOUR TIME ON SHIT RELATED TO THAT. jesus christ this isn't fucking rocket science. You sound like one of those twitter artists complaining that their throwaway scrap work gets more attention than what they put effort into. Yeah, no shit! That's because your throwaway shit is actually appealing. Dumbass.

>>96701611
Why are they asking you for information directly? You're not a character in the world.

>>96702964
And there is no difference whatsoever between that and simply rolling for an evil spirit on a random table. Anything the players don't interact with, doesn't exist and doesn't matter. Games aren't stories. They are interactive simulations in which players use reasoning and their character abilities to solve problems.

>>96704280
Why do you need to able to tell them that?

>>96705749
did you have a stroke?

>>96708991
The purpose of a game is to play it. Not to generate a gay ass setting for your novel no one will ever read.

>>96700952
Either you need to find ways to get your players to engage with the world more deeply than a bethesda game, or you need to embrace the fact that your hobby is apparently spending time and effort establishing deep backgrounds for people to ignore while they roll dice and say numbers. Like gilding a pig's trough.
>>96701530
This sums it up nicely. You have to make them care and be involved. Ideally by mechanics as well as lore.
>>96700961
Unless the worlds have massively different circumstances and themes, you might as well just put them all in one.

Oh no my players are playing the game they agreed to play instead of reading my novel :((((((((((((((((((

>>96705723
I don't because it depends on the tone I'm going for, probably same for that anon.

>>96700414
Better to be overprepared than underprepared IMO. At some point someone's going to ask some question that to them is utterly harmless and you're going to be able to accurately and satisfyingly answer their question.

>>96700367
People will always care about things, if you find a way to tie it what interests them. Pay attention to what players ask you to describe. You can spin a lot of details out of something if you know someone is interested in hearing it, and that way you can link everything together.

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>>96708162

Don't follow writing advice because RPG is not writing. That's my point.

>>96714099
Then why did you say that the reason was they hadn't written any best-sellers? Writing a best seller isn't running an RPG either.

>>96700639
I told my players to imagine my homebrew setting is a canvas. I’m painting it in as we play but have the basic shapes and form already. I invite them to help me paint parts with their backstories we discuss beforehand. It’s unrealistic to assume the whole world is created beforehand and would be a waste of time. I only really work on things that are player facing. I think that’s what OP is getting burnt out by. Running three different systems and settings is also fucking dumb.

>>96700367
If you want players to care get them to interact with it in a meaningful way. Have issues with druids or treants from cutting down too many trees. Have a quest that involves need water from the elemental plane of water. Or just a visit to the hot springs for some downtime. Focus on what is player facing if you’re pressed for time. The lazy DM’s guide has some great advice. I don’t use it’s step by step process myself but the overall philosophy is very useful. For example focusing prep on high value activities like NPCs, maps, interesting environments etc.

>>96700367
Excess worldbuilding is just a little treat you indulge in behind the scenes for your own enjoyment. If the point is player-oriented, don't do it.

>>96700367
gayben had an interesting input on this in an interview and it can be applied to ttrpgs as well. Players have narcissistic impulses that demand attention from the games they play, if they interact with the game world and it doesn’t respond to them they get upset. That’s why detail and the world reacting to the players matters, and even the little stuff that doesn’t seem like it matters actually matters a lot.

>>96711557
>You're not a character in the world.
No, but they are. One character was playing a lawyer. I'd expect that character to know the intricacies of the legal system.

>>96715449
Pretty much that. It's why they might not give a fuck about your quest giver npcs but will pour all of their attention onto Beppo the tavern goblin who you invented on the spot.

Guess they should have roleplayed their character learning about the legal system instead of just declaring that they know about it then.

>>96714557

My point is that they're not even writing experts anyway.

>>96700367
You need to let(force) them interact with the world building elements to make them care. They should have been escorting that lumber cart, some waternigger should have asked if they'd help clean the spring because their kind are leaving trash there and its fucking up the plana de agua or whatever. You don't want a theme park where elements are shown once then never relevant to the group afterwards. Reoccurance and patterns are the real magic trick to worldbuilding.

if you want an engaging world and are doing worldbuilding prep, try spending more time on NPCs than the background economics or logistics

a labor dispute between a sawmill owner and loggers where both sides petition the PCs for help to intimidate the other side will do more to cement a place as the lumber town than a hundred lumber carts. especially if the result of that, or the PCs choosing not to get involved, makes things visibly different in town the next time they pass though

>>96715818
I genuinely don't understand you. If a PC has a knowledge skill they may know things the player doesn't. If they have Lore (Law) or whatever, they are assumed to know about the legal system already. It's their job.

The legal system is particularly tricky for a certain kind of group (autists) because it's complex enough to resist a reasonable amount of worldbuilding, but it may be important enough that the details really matter if the PCs are engaging with it.

Nah.

>>96716348
While I agree with you, I've found that warning certain players "Your character would know [x]" or "Your character would probably not do that, with how much they know about [x]" just tends to piss them on the belief you're trying to railroad them, so you just kind of have to let them learn the hard way.

>>96716520
There's a big difference between
>Your character has access to this information
And
>Your character would act this specific way because of their knowledge of this information

>>96716562
Intellectually there is. The kind of autists that would outright argue with you about it about it don't consider there to be a difference in terms of control, though.

>>96716636
You've had players in your games who get mad at your for giving them information?

>>96716660
Yes, I have. I'd remind them that their characters know certain actions they're about to take are illegal or socially unwelcome like stealing or openly disrespecting the local religion, or let them know their character knows why mouthing off to this particular npc could have negative repercussions like insulting a noble to their faces, and they'll still go "I don't care, I'll do it anyways". Like I said, in retrospect I figure they didn't see it as making sure they were informed but more like attempts to railroad them in a nagging mother fashion.

>>96716744
Why are you playing with children?

>>96716744
The players just want to complain. A railroaid is when the outcome is predetermined like a prewritten story. Insulting the king and getting thrown in the dungeon isn't a railroad, it's just a consequence that they didn't like and they don't know how to or don't want to articulate their feelings properly.

>>96716802
D&D, though I guess it's the same difference

>>96716811
Effectively, yeah. Though those experiences helped me work out the proper approach is "Your character knows [x]" instead of suggesting an alternate action so that the decision to fuck themselves over is entirely in their hands.

>>96717013
Why didn't you answer my question?

>>96717103
I did.

Didn't.

>>96701345
Impressive if true

>>96708810
lol delusional

>>96705723
>not using the same setting for all of your games
I want to but it doesn't make sense.
If it's an OSR setting it's lower magic usually, and the player characters are lower in power.
So having a bunch of mageocracies and a magic shop in every city of 5000 or more doesn't really make sense. But in 5e it's almost expected. And in 3.5e it is DEFINITELY expected.
Not every edition of D&D has the same expectations so using the same setting while running multiple editions doesn't work.

>>96700367
Deal with it, nerd

>>96716348
>I genuinely don't understand you.
You replied to a troll, stupid.

>>96711557
NTA but they went to city hall and they went to the real estate office and they started asking the clerk "how does buying land work?" and i had fucking NOTHING FUCK YOU ANTIPLANNERS

Just accept you're not as good as writer as you think you are and your setting is not as interesting or unique as you think it is and that most people just want to kill monsters and pretend to be elves and don't care about much more than that

>>96722857
Nah, most DMs worth a shit have interesting things to explore. My players demand more than just combat, you’ve gotta have some kind of world fleshed out, even a precon.