4e... destroyed yet again...
Still playing 3.5. Sorry.
It's all WOTC trash.
>>96735584D&D predates WOTC
>>96735623I know that, you jackass. The last good version of D&D was the Rules Cyclopedia.WOTC has made hash of it several times over with 3 or 5 editions, depending on how you count.
>not because I didn't like 4th edition D&D. I'm not making any judgements—positive or negative—on any of the editionswhat a waste of a thread
>>96735558>>96735668>making sure the action in his books hews close enough to the D&D rules of the dayIt's not a waste of a thread, it's an opportunity for the reverse verisimilitude argument: rather than focusing on rules accurately depicting the setting, how are you supposed to write a setting around such blatantly gamist and simplified rules (this is also true about 5e)?>>96735568Good idea, 3.5e was the last edition where generating a fictional scenario in a world where the rules are mostly accurate was feasible without writing a LitJRPG.
>>96735558I don't play D&D, but what exactly is the whole point of editions? This is what I've vaguely gleaned from threads here over the years:>1e - the original but limited>2e - no idea, nobody ever mentions it>3e - the one most people knew so stuck with it>4e - an attempt to revolutionise 3e>5e - it's just 3e again but people are stubborn and stick with 3e?>all the 0.5e's - no idea, retconning of the edition they're the .5 of?
The most substantial part of that interview is him criticizing making supplements for players over making more material for GMs to work with, and naming trying to cash out with it as one of TSRs fatal follies.
At this point it really feels like some people really want to erase 4e's existence and force anyone who's still playing it to move to their preferred DnD version.
>>96736366Most people really wanted to erase 4e's existence back when it came out already.
>>967363663.5egroids really, REALLY hate the idea that anyone could've enjoyed an edition that solved 3.5e's problems. If 4e doesn't exist, then they can point to every other edition and say "but actually, do you REALLY want to play that?">pre-3e is le clunky or something, do you really want to spend all the time to learn that?>5e is a badly written mess that is a nightmare for the GM, surely you don't hate the GM that much with all the work they already put in?So they can keep bullying everyone else into playing unfun dogshit while they play their wizards, clerics, and druids and make everyone else's lives miserable because they need a fighter (or similar) to be their meatshield, and they can't stand the idea that their packmule player might actually have fun.
>>96736446>most peopleYou mean the 3.5egroids that were kicking and screaming that people wanted to leave their torture tables, so lashed out violently at a direct competitor?
>>96736292And yet 4e printed far more material for GMs (even if you exclude dragon/dungeon magazine and just count the sourcebooks) in about 5 years than 5e has in twice that time.Furthermore, 3e was extremely aggressive about printing a shit ton of redundant players option books.Weird complaint, honestly.
>>96736474That complaint was specifically about TSR's handling of D&D.
>>96736480Didn't TSR D&D print a shit ton of setting material?
>>96736219Iterative process of creating rules.>Make ruleset>Need to print more rules but think you can do it better>Need to print more rules but think you can do it better than ruleset 2.0>Need to print more rules but think you can do it better than ruleset 3.0Then people have opinions of which they liked best because one man's trash is another man's treasure.
>>96736451>implying 3.5 didn't have strong martial splats
>>96736669>implying the overwhelming majority of 3.5 tables didn't force core only for this exact reason
>>96736219>He doesn't know 1e was the 3rd version of dndI grew up on 3.5. I'd rather play 1e these days.
>>96735558Refresh my memory: is Salvatore the magical realm guy or am I thinking of someone else?
>>96736688That would be Ed Greenwood.
>>96736219>1e turned a fantasy tt war game into an individual characters game>2e applied the learned lessons from 1e to make it a more concise thing that is much more seperate from its wargaming roots, still very experimental and written to the specific playstyle of the creators, pretty much set into stone all the expectations people have of what an RPG is and established all the fundaments that following D&Ds rest on>3e rules become more standartized and universal with a very modular system that created probably the highest amount of third party material of any RPG in existance, very jank but also D&D at its peak>4e hyperstandartized system that turned the game into an MMORPG flavored tt wargame with extremely restrictive progression and a rule system so universal that it sucked the flavor out of everything, the murder suicide of the online tools dev and paizo continueing 3e with the numbers filed off didn't help, either. It's death is only bemoaned by it's few fans>5e essentially 3e for retards that are confused by options and are more afraid of power creep and "playing it wrong" then actually having fun, also actively tried to recruit the "modern audience" and the theater kids by throwing the grognards under the table of past shame, then tried to copyright scam the industry and community and lost both of them, effectively D&D if written by the marketing and HR department
>>967367663e was still a simulationist approach to design. The rules are there to model how "realistically" a fantasy world with magic would work. 4e was hated because it ditched that design philosophy in favor of gamifying the system. A lot of the rules make little in-world sense for game balance and VTT compliance reasons.
>>96736819underage, 3e was generally derided as "tabletop diablo" when it came outtruth is, wotc d&d was always disgustingly gamified
>>96735558>almostMakes a big difference, cry more.And if anything, this would be an argument for 4e, not against.
>>96736219>what exactly is the whole point of editions?"Buy all our shit once again."
>>96736219>1eClunky in every regard>2eMore rules but they're retarded >3ePerfection >4eDesperate cash grab to get in on the 2000s MMO video game craze. Has zero reason to exist.>5eDesperate cash grab to make more money and bring retards into the game instead of just making 3.75e. Has zero reason to exist>5.5/2024/Next 5e but with some errata. Has zero reason to exist.
>>96736901>>3e>PerfectionContainment thread. Now.
>>96736843>argument is that some retard once said somethingYou're a faggot and wrong.
>>96735558>guy who created an special snowflake, OP, non-Evil drow, says 4e is brokenHe's the biggest reason D&D has been a mess for decades. He had no clue of fundamental principles of the game. ALL drow are meant to be Evil. Just like orcs, goblins, etc.
>>96735899>how are you supposed to write a setting around such blatantly gamist and simplified rulesWhy would game rules affect narrative at all? Game rules aren't depictions of how a setting functions, just how the player can interact with it.
>>967369613e is a tabletop videogame.Cope.
>>96736901>3efag punching down at 4e for being a videogamelmaoback to your tabletop diablo, fagyou're as bad as the 4rries
>>967368433e was never considered table top Diablo, that's fucking dumb.Hilariously one of the last 2e official releases was a Diablo 2 book in the year 2000.>>96736219You forgot Basic and Expert (B/X) that was written by people other than Gygax and co. B/X deserves that special mention because a fuckton of Old School Renaissance stuff uses that ruleset for the base if not just using a straight up copy of it.
>>96735558To be fair, Salvatore seemed pretty damn tired of writing about drow.
>>96735558man, if he hated 4e's pussy-ass lore changes to appeal to a wider market, he must have absolutely seethed about 5e's gutted faggot lore that removed everything that could possibly be offensive
>>96736901>3e>Perfection
I like 3.5e. Been playing it for the last 3 years and it's so much god damn fun.4e seems like a wholly different experience. More focuses on the game than the "simulation" so to speak, which is fine, I'd probably have fun playing it, but I get why it would be harder to model a setting that doesn't contradict the game's working,>>96735899>LitJRPGI hate that shit. So god damn much,.Both in the western novels and the easter (japanese, korean, chinese) novels and animation.Specially all the isekai trash where the world runs on dragon quest rules for no apparent reason.It was fun once, maybe twice, but it's been the standard for years now.Fuck.Fuck!I'm mad.
>>96737126Note the headline is about "rules" not "world".
4e walked so 5e could dissolve into bubbling chunks in the name of brand identity
>>96736901>3e>PerfectionPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTT, fsg.
>>96735899>gamitht
>>96735558Anyone who considers anything outside 2e canon is just objectively wrong. 2e defines D&D settings and everything else is just random nonsense.
