Developing a game, what are TTRPGs you would consider well designed ?and are there any rule books/guides that you would consider good references especially for build variety, class dynamics and overall game design not particularly a Traditional RPG fag.
I have never played a well designed RPG. Some are better than others but i cant reccomend the books because of formatting issues. Noone gets the holy trinity of>good rules>good books>good modulesBut judging from the rest of your post it seems like /tg/ specific insights arent quite what you're going for. Can you expand a bit on what you're trying to find?
>>96742693I kinda want to delve into overall RPG design feel like it’s hard to find resources purely on RPG design so I figured since gathering resources from table tops might provide me insight into how I’d like to separate my idea from others. So I guess mostly from a design and mechanic standpoint(classes, how movement functions, dice roll etc) more technical maybe creature stuff too. If that clarifies anything.
>>96742706You got two camps.Crunchy>Loads of rules. Specifics covered. Structured. Clearly defined what does what. More game focused.Soft>More free form. Loose application of rules. Might have general guidelines instead of outright rules. More story focused.The chief thing that seperates most RPG systems (be they crunchy or soft) is the conflict resolution mechanic. D20,2d20, d100, d10 dice pool, d6 dice pool, +/- dice, etc. Conflict resolution is simply defined as a character is attempting to perform an action where the outcome of the attempt is unknown. CR is where games usually shit the bed by trying to tie too much shit to single type of conflict resolution mechanic or one that fairly static. Some handle CR better than others though, d100 is better than d20 as an example. The narrative dice system in Genesys is probably the best all rounder CR system out there but given it is tied to propitiatory dice and a system whose publisher is distancing itself from, I am not shocked it isn't popular.
>>96742706ah okay i see. you're going to stuggle a bit with TTRPG design principles because its fundamentally different to most if not all CRPGs for a simple reason. you simply couldnt design morrowind for the nintendo gamecube right? well i cant design morrowind as a TTRPG for the same reason. whatever "program" i write has to run entirely on a human brain. the approach i take as a designer is entirely different because of those hardware (wetware) limitations. take resolution mechanics for example. morrowind can run a different script for run speed and jumping and speech checks and a dozen for combat, but a brain cant just load that up whenever it wants or perform matrix multiplications on the fly, so we have a concept of a resolution mechanic. in most decently built TTRPGs, this is the core rule the engine runs on. some examples are >roll D20 to beat a target>roll nD6, most sixes win>roll nD10, most 6+ wins>roll nD6, highest face value wins (doubles add together)every "conflict" in the system is generally resolved using this single mechanic. strength checks, speech checks, fear effects, poison, all of it. there are modifiers from stats and whatever else, but thats the core of good TTRPG design - not nesessarily minimalism, but efficiency. beyond that the world is your oyster. games like D&D or pathfinder are all about archetypes, so its class design is all "you're conan or legolas with the serial numbers filed off". other games like dark heresy are more about the profession and role you fulfill in the world and in your organization. how you implement classes (if at all) is just a question of what your game is about.
continuing >>96742774>>96742706>how movement functions, dice roll etc) more technical maybe creature stuff too.movement is a question of space and time. for example, D&D breaks its time into discreet 6s increments and has wargaming DNA, where space is important. it uses a grid, but you could still to this day play modern D&D5e by measuring inches with a tape measure. other games like WOD use "a turn is however long everyone's action takes", and WOD doesnt use a grid or map at all. in fact it only measures position as "in melee with X" or "not in melee". looking more broadly, battletech uses hexes and breaks time up into a movement and combat phase, with players taking turn to alternate their activations. warhammer has movement and combat phases but sequential, so i move and fight everything before you move and fight everything of yours. different systems create different artifacts and break points like BT's initiative sink units and warhammer's first turn advantage and sigmar's double-turning, but those are all case-by-case. just study your own system i guess.creature design... you should have the hang of this by now. i just make something and work out how strong it is after because my personal homebrew system is a masterpiece, but you'll have to learn how your own machine spins its gears before you can start making creatures to operate within it
>>96742772>>96742774>>96742806Thanks anons pretty insightful. Yeah movement and turn style is something I definitely want to focus do enjoy the systems from BG3 and the Expeditions series. Got a preference question, do you think 4 or 5 classes is enough if they’re all distinct? Thinking of limiting the party size to roughly 4.
>>96742827no worries. baldur's gate is an interesting one. ive never played it so im not sure, but IIRC it really does use the D&D rules under the hood. designing in that way with a single resolution mechanic lets you expand the scope of what you're doing massively and it means you dont have to tinker with different systems constantly, but being a computer game they can also sneak in fine tuning behind the scenes if something needs to be 10% better or worse. the question of classes is really a question of what you want your game to do. for a dungeon crawler the "classic" triad is fighter, rogue and wizard, but for MMOs its modified slightly to tank, DPS and healer. if you just want those kinds of gameplay thats all you really need, but if you want NPCs and social stats/skills you start to create roles for a party face or manipulator. if exploration is important you might want rangers or druids, or maybe even researchers or mechanics. take D&D's class design - as a charisma caster warlocks have great utility spells, but can also be persuasive and can build for either. The cleric can be all in on control spells OR be a medic/historian.if it helps, write out a skill list. even if you dont use it directly it will help you understand what kinds of checks you expect your players to make, and therefore how many classes you need to manage that skill list. Just remember that its not perscriptive- you dont need to lock skills to classes or vice-versa. rogues for instance can generally be good at any skill and spells often exist to skip checks entirely. but yeah, success here is about scope management. understand what you want and what you can leave behind, and that will give you the answers to your questions.
>>96743007Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't really use 5e's ruleset for shit, honestly. They use a reskinned version of the rules that Larian established in the Divinity series of video games. The mechanics of some stuff in D&D just flat out wouldn't work with the engine they used either.A notable example is the fly spell. BG3 isn't really a 3D game, it just looks like one. You have 3D representations of a person standing on a rock with modifiers to ranged attacks tied to that spot on the map, however there is no actual 3D representation of open air. You can't cast fly and just go straight up as an example because there is no "up" with that engine. Everything is on a flat plane as flying just ignores the penalties associated with terrain.The absence of some key spells is also notable. Dispel is a BIG missing spell because Larian decided there was just too much shit that could be solved far too easily if Dispel existed in the game because they would play it straight RAW if it was included trivializing a lot of important plot points.Mechanically, the inability to hold actions gimped a major tactical advantage as well. In the table top game, you can choose to hold off on taking an action until a condition is met. The most common use is setting your crew up around a corner with weapons ready so when the enemy that was too far to reach on your turn rounds that corner, everyone attacks them before that enemy has a chance to do anything be it with melee, ranged, or spells.Solasta is a much better representation of the 5e ruleset even if that game lacks a ton of polish.
>>96743077>A notable example is the fly spell. BG3 isn't really a 3D game, it just looks like oneWhat the fuck is this, 1994?
>>96742672> What are TTRPGs you would consider well-designed?From the latest? Mythic Bastionland, Slugbluster. I think they are well-designed because they are designed to do only a couple of things that the author intended. So you can count on these things being play-tested. When it is not the case, as a GM, you always have to suffer and combat the rules. You know, like combat in D&D 5e, it's CR, option bloat, and class balance.
>>96742672You might want to look-up "RPG Design Patterns" on Internet Archive. It's a big pdf of different mechanics, how they relate to eachother, and what systems they're used in.For build variety and class dynamics, just consider the following questions>What genre/genres is your setting>What do the players do in this world>What type or types of people do you want the players to be>Do you prefer strong essential roles, or looser ones>Should each class have one role it fulfills (eg, fighter only being a frontline melee combatant), or should each class have two or more roles they can cover>Would you prefer for two level 1 characters of the same class be practically the same, or significantly different>Would you prefer limited options for easier balance and learning, or wider options for more player expression and less defined roles>Do you want healing to be a role>Do you want melee and/or tanking to be a role>Is there any more niche or setting-specific class/role that you'd like to focus on>What if any non-combat abilities or roles might the classes have>What is the relation between weapons, armour, and other items and the different classes