What game has the best dark elves?
D&D invented the concept.
>>96749388https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Moriquendi>In Norse mythology, there are the Light Elves (Ljósálfar) and the Dark Elves (Dökkálfar or Svartálfar), a tradition which was well known to J.R.R. Tolkien.[5]
>>96749445Yeah, but all modern Drow lore and concepts as we know them come from D&D.
>>96749492>Take existing thing and staple to it>I created this
>>96749388OP asked for the best, not D&Dogshit.
>>96749986>>96749946D&D popularized Drow as a concept.
I wonder how many RPG systems have playable dark elves, that are not D&D or offshoots (like Pathfinder).My gut-feeling tells me that D&D-likes are the exceptions in making supposedly evil elves playable.Warhammer Fantasy is not one - yet.
>>96749370Elder Scrolls, you s'wit
>>96749992Yes, and?
>>96749992You have to be truly retarded to think being the first to popularize something makes you good at that thing. Then again, if you're trying to defend D&D, that goes without saying.
>>96749370Dunmer from TES are the only ones that come to mind who aren't just basically drow in another setting and have plenty of their own well crafted culture, lore and identity. Most of which is really fucking cool >>96750102This Muthsera knows what's up
>>96749370As others have said, Elder Scrolls. Dunmer have dark traits like practicing slavery and openly having assassin's guilds while still being a believable culture and not just cartoonishly evil for its own sake like the D&D and Warhammer versions.
>>96750471To be honest, enslaving Argonians is not really evil or bad.
>Drow>Warhammer Dark Elves>Dunmer>Lineage Dark ElvesWhy no matter the setting, no matter the skin color, dark elves are always sluts?
>>96751023Dunmer aren't sluts.There are ultimately only two works that hint at it: Barenziah and that one joke book. Both are ancient Daggerfall lore, and the Barenziah book directly objects this idea. And the joke book wasn't written by a dunmer.With Morrowind, they turned from generic dark elves to staunch traditionalists that left Summerset because Velothi thought that place was too degenerate. It's hard to find actual slutty Morrowind dunmer NPCs in their actual game.I'd argue that drow women aren't sluts either, it's just the result of their god-imposed matriarchy at work, but FR is an all-out fuckfest in general, not just for elves
>>96751077Dunmer openly have brothels, even in ESO.And one of their "good daedra" is Mephala the goddess of sex.
>>96751089>even in ESOIt's probably just ESO. The House of Earthly Delights in Suran is a tavern, owned by a Breton (who seem to have a history of being lewd, but we apparently don't talk about that), and none of the dancers are dunmer.And other races don't have brothels? But if they have, it doesn't mean their women are supersluts. It only counts for dunmer.
>>96750437>>96750102I always felt like Morrowind was some drug fuelled craziness that worked in making such a cool world.Of course the spear book where Vivec and Molag Bal appear in is so fucking bizarre I don't even know how that makes you more skilled
>>96749370It's funny how the lore always describes drow as having jet black skin, but the art always depicts them as grey, blue, purple, or red
>if a race has brothels it means their females are slutsNo, it means their males have a sex-drive.
>>96751160I didn't specify females. Slut can refer to either gender.>>96751153Some old artworks used brownish tones for drow skin, that was hilarious.
More like Dork Elves, amrite?
Okay, drow are the dark elves of D&D, but what about Shadar-kai? Don't they kinda also qualify as dark elves? Since they are elves. And dark.
>>96751023Well, why shouldn't they be?
>>96751153Well yeah it's really hard to draw jet black skin and have discernible features.>>96751224They occupy the same conceptual space, sure. D&D has tons of redundant races like that.
How is it possible that there hasn't been a better dark elf character created in 27 years?
>>96751393Okay, explain why she is a good character without mentioning Ashram or anything else related to her relationship to him.
>>96751393>random anime crap>goodLol.
>>96751023>Basically every culture places a number of moral commandments or restrictions on sexuality and traditionally perceives being too promiscuous or weird about sex as immoral (or at least in bad taste)>Dark elves are generally characterised as being immoral or at least having a moral system many would consider evil It's not exactly complexBesides women with unnatural skin colours are fucking hot. Same reason why plenty of human reskin races in various sci-fi settings often get heavily sexualised (Twi'lek, Asari etc.). Now why is that a case I have no clue, but it's certainly an interesting question to ask
>>96751077>skyrimslopper talking down about Daggerfall
>>967493702nd Edition AD&D set in Menzoberanzen.All other suggestions are inferior.
>>96750471I dunno, they're pretty awful people. Hugely racist even against their own born in the wrong place. Murder as an institution. Church is tyrannical as hell. Even before that they worshiped a murderous whore, a traitorous douchebag, and Azura. Everyone is awful in TES in the normal way people are but dunmer are above the curve.
>>96751692I mentioned Morrowind-stuff for a reason, anon.
>>96749370Mine :)
>>96751418I really like the way she mirrors Deedlit and the high elves in general in a way where you can see that they come from a similar environment, but have opposed world views. I'm also weak to how the bad guys interact in Lodoss and Piro is an example of how the bad guys can be pretty good people just stuck in the bad guy camp.And finally, she's really fucking hot.
>>96751720Didn't say they weren't but for all that they're still believable, there are awful cultures in the real world too.
>>96749370Melniboneans are the OG and the template for modern evil elves. Both the drow and the dark eldar are essentially knockoffs of them (and the cosmology of both D&D and Warhammer are heavily influenced by Elric in general), and they're still the coolest. We're talking back in 1961 with evil sorcerer-elves keeping mutilated slaves to play like musical instruments. By the time D&D and Warhammer got their hands on the concept (1977 and 1987 respectively) it was already an old hat.
>>96750102Video games have their own board.
>>96752405There are 2 different RPG systems and 2 tabletop wargames for TES, I've ran 2 campaigns in the setting myself It's just as /tg/ related as Tolkien or Lovecraft inspired things are
>>96752611Sure, I guess. It and Warhammer and other D&D derivatives are tangentionally related to real game, I suppose.
>>96749388Only if you ignore the pulp stories that heavily inspired D&D such as importantly in this case Elric which had the Melniboneans who formed the foundation for modern Dark elves despite not actually being elves themselves ironically
>>96757075Melniboneans, Vadhagh, Nadragh, and Eldren are all elves, buddy. Even when they are not called that in their respective universes, they are variants of the same race humans know as Elves.
Let's have it for the man who singlehandedly ruined not just Drow, but all Dark Elves by association
>>96751720The difference is Dunmer come off as within the normal range of human expression and morality, but still somewhat alien.
>>96752363Also, the designs for Warhammer elves are literally just repurposed from when they had the rights to make Elric minis. The pointed hats and so on. They literally were Melnibonean miniatures that they started calling elves at some point.
>>96751720Argonian claws typed this post
>>96750422Clearly, they were good 'at that thing' if they made it popular.
>>96749370
>>96757502There are worse ways to die, that's for sure.
>>96757231>implying Argonians can be literate
Any decent dark elf/drow novels, other than Elric, War of the Spider Queen, Drizzt origins trilogy and Malus Darkblade?
>>96757714The Real Barenziah
>>96750471>and not just cartoonishly evil for its own sake like the D&D and Warhammer versions.*laughs in Telvanni*
>>96757747What's wrong with Telvanni?
>>96751393>>96752152Based fellow Pirotess enjoyer and great points. Love dark elves of all kinds.
Except male elves.
>>96757757Too late.Gayboy.
>>96757714Shadows and Starlight. One of the very few FR series that's Eilistraee-focused and Elaine Cunningham is trying to show the drow society in a more nuanced light.I guess Liriel Baenre sometimes gets away with too much bullshit. But then it eventually comes to a head when her friend gets killed by a drow raiding party, because he failed to realize that not every drow is going to be as nice and reasonable as Liriel, so I'll let that pass.
>>96757754IMO, they are probably the closest thing the Elder Scrolls have to a proper drow culture. They are not stupid evil per se, they are just racist, isolationist assholes that practice murder as solving political problems.The entire Hortator quest in Morrowind is essentially about your patron going "you can just try to convince all those councillors to your cause, or you may just murder them, because that's the proper Telvanni way".
>>96757763How much nude drow moonlight dancing does it have?
>>96757873It has sex scenes, nude moondancing, whole kit and caboodle.
>>96757917I will now read your novel
>>96749370aw, in the thumbnail I thought that was going to be uthegental on the upper rightbut its just dumb ol jeggred
>>96750700damn near every named argonian npc in the series is a bro
>>96757218I always hated Warhammer fans (40k and fantasy) jerking off the setting or calling StarCraft a ripoff when like 90% of Warhammer is copy-pasted from other shit and given a paint job
Not good by any measure, but just for completeness.Although I did like space knifeships made of stone.
>>96758948The only tolerable argonians are1) Lifts-Her-Tail2) Argonian Nerevarine (Boa tarde, amigo!)All the rest are trash. Zero respect.
>>96749992About that...
>>96757104he wrote some good booksI like bob
>>96758980I think nowaday you're supposed to say North African Arab Penis, not Moorcock
>>96757774>are just racist, isolationist assholes that practice murder as solving political problems...b-based?
>>96758991Maybe. I just haven't seen a single good book by him, personally.I only read Dark Elf trilogy and however many Crystal Shard books there were.(i was young and had bad taste)
>>96758977objectively wrong
>>96759005homeland, the first one, ive generally considered my favoritethe hunter's blades trilogy are the purest imo, and the peak of the seriesbut if you didnt like the first six you probably wont like any of them, because you have bad tastes
>>96759015Childish mary sue writing full of edgy shit (Artemis Entreri is such a good assassin he killed my interest in Forgotten Realms for many years, by sheer dumb edginess).A person should outgrow Salvatore, Moor Cock, and Robert Jordan by the age of 14-15 and recognize them for the dumb childish crap they are.
>>96759034theres really nothing betterall "mature" stuff is just edgewank and degeneracyat least in the fantasy genre; ive read some good sci-fi but even the good ones are boring in comparison
>>96759060Quite the contrary. Nihilistic crap like Moor Cock is worthless edgewank.There's plenty of good fantasy, such as Andre Norton, Barbara Hambley, Tad Williams, or (early) Ursula Leguin, that is actually awesome without degeneracy or edginess.
>>96759128never heard of them, I'll take a peek
>>96749370Mine does. They're still sexy, still evil, but they don't require deus ex machina to have a functional society. Built for the ACKS system, but there's a guideline on how to convert them to your OSR system of choice. https://files.catbox.moe/xsolyj.pdfhttps://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/516466/twisted-shadows-compendium-of-the-dark-elvesYou can get it for free from the catbox link, but I'd appreciate it if you got it from DTRPG, even if you don't want to pay me money, because that drives up my metrics. I think there's also a Trove version.
Actually DARK Elf, not y'all's metaphorical bullshit
>>96759604As in "its a dark day for the elfkind when a brown elf is found outside degenrate asian cartoons"?
>>96749370>Called dark elves>Actually pale as fuckWhat did they mean by this?
>>96760299Because proper elves are blonde.
>>96760299Because "dark" was never about visuals, but about their culture, their psyche, their soul.
>>96760736Maybe Elric was just an albino and the rest of his buddies are dark like sub-Saharan Africans.
>>96761229Dark elf is not a skin color.Calm down with the pornbrainery.
>>96759228based dark elf PDF poster!
>>96757756thank you, lack of any refutation just goes to show how superior she is.
dark elves make everything better
>>96749370"Dark elves" in various franchises are entirely different, and have nothing in common apart from name.It is like comparing beef wellington to cheesecake and McDonald's hamburger - sure they are roughly the same category, but they have nothing in common.
>>96764640>tasty and healthy>tasty but unhealthy>gross and unhealthyI dunno, your examples can be compared pretty handily. In fact, I'd say as far as notoriously fallacious food comparisons go, the examples you chose best fit an objection discussion of something.
>>96764662All listed meals are for different occasions. It doesn't make sense to compare festive food, desert and fast food.Different categories. IMO.
>>96764640Here, buddy, you forgot this, but I gotcha! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ [ picrelated ]
>>96758995LOL. Thanks for the laugh
>>96749388Will admit D&D did basically make the BDSM Femdom Sadist Dark Elves. However, the term dark elves have been done before D&D. That's like saying Dwarfs and Elves were made by Tolkien. He only made Orcs. Though to be fair that was kind of just a different name for goblins at time if I remember. Not a different race
>>96749370These drow have too many clothes on.
>>96757873The main character is a privileged drow Stacey who can't understand why anything she does is wrong, is generally a bitch to anybody who doesn't like her (mysteriously other female characters who just don't GET her), and the first time she goes to the surface she promptly starts dancing naked before going off, finding a human, and jumping on his dick.
>>96764966/tg/ only cares about the last part and will based purely on this call it a masterpiece.
>>96765030And there's nothing wrong with that.
>/tg/ loves feminism when it makes elves look bad
Okay, riddle me this.Why vast majority of Dark Elves use lizards as livestock?Drow use some sort of lizard as mounts and pack animals, IIRC.Warhammer Dark Elves ride Cold Ones.Dunmer have gaur and argonians as beasts of burden.
>>96765134A lot of dark elf stuff will make sense once you realize that they are supposed to be very anti-high elf. The opposite, in design, culture, style, tone.High Elves use horses, griffins, pegasi and other "noble" and more traditional fantasy steeds. Dark elves use monsters like lizards, spiders, manticores, generally more exotic, weird and ugly creatures.It probably also helps that dark elves are usually put in more exotic, hostile and weird environments with a strange flora and fauna.
>>96765164I guess this is more of a meta-answer. But consider this: in many settings, dark elves were often defeated by the good guy elves, and pushed out of traditional elf realms. So they have to leave to somewhere that doesn't have any good guy elves: the hostile, strange places of their respective fantasy settings. With strange creatures to tame and use as mounts and pack animals.Dunmer are the weird ones again, they voluntarily left and found themselves a hostile shithole to endure for religious reasons.
>>96751418She humanizes a villain character and ultimately turns him away from it. You are perfectly allowed to cite a character's relationship with another character to show why they are a good character.
>>96764931They dressed up for the family photo.
>>96764722Goblin meant a kind of fairy before Tolkien though. Not really identifiable with orcs.
>>96765342Yes, and fairies were catch-all for all kinds of mythical beings, many of them monstrous. Like orcs.
>>96749370Morrowind. I took the Dunmer concept as presented in TES III and have used that as my Dark Elves (with some tweaks) ever since. Just an incredibly cool, unique race and style (ruined by Oblivion and Skyrim).
>>96765374Yeah, but no, not really. Goblins were a kind of spiritual being and not even necessarily malicious.
>>96764966Sounds like a typical drow
>>96759060I liked Bakker, but Second Apocalypse is so grim that nobody can actually read it.
>>96764722It's all based on old German Mythology
>>96759060>all "mature" stuff is just edgewank and degeneracyGo looking for actually mature things then.The best spot check I find is 'Has the protagonist actually got responsibility for someone/something, including the parts of it they don't like.'Black Chronicles gives a perfect example of the difference.Croaker is a mature protagonist, he takes responsibility for an entire group of people, their lives and liveylhoods in the face of navigating a rather dangerous existence, there are times he does things he isn't personally happy with in order to look after them.Raven meanwhile is a tosser who only gives a shit about Darling and fuck everyone else, fuck things he doesn't like doing too, fuck his parents, ect.Another good check is 'Does the character acknowledge their own flaws rather than being informed of them by others and merrily ignoring them'You could hand Elric a piece of sandpaper and he'd scrape his balls clean off while whining about how it hurts and woe is him the brutality that fate has set upon him, but if you asked him to put down the sandpaper you'd get a blank look.
>>96765635>characters having flawsLol, what is this, school writing clubNonsenseA good main character has no flaws. He has unique eye color, is way more moral than anyone else, has all talents, but chooses to pursue just one, and he is immediately the best of the best in it, beating even old masters while young, and he has a pet panther, and he's a misunderstood mistrusted exile who save everyoneGet you stupid "flaws" nonsense out of here.
>>96765649Oh you.Another great measure is 'Could/Would anyone ever insult/question the merit of the Protagonist to their face and not immediately be proven wrong (or right)'It doesn't have to happen in the story, but can you visualize it happening without the character overreacting/the person doing it turning out to be evil/stoopid or the author basically stepping into frame and putting down a chance for the character to be refuted (Or worse, stepping in to go 'See, our protagonist is a total cocksucker! Isn't it great :D')If so it's a more mature story than most, in fantasy or out of it.
>>96765134because lizards are cool
>>96765685As endothermic organisms, naturally
>>96765649Damn what's your deviantart username?
>>96765903@RASalvatore
>>96765635drizzt has responsibility for his frens and whatever innocent people might be in danger
>>96758995>>96764701>North African Arab PenisDon't you mean Moopcock
>>96749370>Have Drow faction in my DnD homebrew>Want them somewhat familiar to new players yet being differentIs this even possible? My setting is an Age of Sail world where all the elemental and other planes of existence are forced into the Material Plane and the Drow ended up in a caldera out at sea where they hastily had their spiders shit out a ton of webbing to create a canopy of webs that block out the sun. Lolth has gone silent and they aren't sure what to do now.
>>96766545The Lolth-autism is already an unfortunate big part of the D&D-like drow idea. Makes these drow about finding their own meaning and place in this world without this goddess, including internal strife and warring factions with different viewpoints. Some may want to uphold the matriarchy, while others realize that the women are far less powerful without the bitch backing them up. Some may even be not outright evil and more willing to cooperate with other races.
>>96766569I think diplomacy and trade are going to be interesting; previously they could raid the material plane nations and scamper back to the Underdark knowing they were safe; now they are only a mere boat ride distance from their wary neighbors.
>>96766545Naturally, they should make magical submarines. Trade underground for underwater, and keep raiding the surface.Maybe instead of Lolth they discover a kraken or whatever, priesthood claim that's Lolth avatar, and they worship that, pretending Lolth is still behind them.
