Good players are more important than a good systems. It takes less work to fix a bad system than to fix a bad player.
Yeah, trying to fix a bad player is pretty much wasted effort, just dump them and get somebody else.
>>96751586>>96751611True, but a bad system is a waste of good players' time, and if you insist on using such a system they may decide to leave.
>>96751655A system is good or bad depending on the game you're running and the focus of the gameplay. CoC is a poor dungeoncrawler, and GURPs have poor social systems for RP.
>>96751586Yes, that is correct. Ultimately TTRPG systems are mostly interchangeable. Virtually any of them can run virtually anything.
>>96751676Some systems are bad for everything. For example, 5e and FATAL.
>>96751586Players who refuse to engage with a system or otherwise convince themselves that they cannot play anything else because it's not the same shit they've been playing for a decade are not good players. If your friends say they want to play the RPG you're running, but disengage and refuse to buy in just because you aren't running D&D, then they don't actually want to play RPGs and they don't actually care about the game you're running.
>>96751740That's not fair to FATAL.
No. D&Dogshit is bad.
>>967517405e is good enough, not for the types of games most anon here want to play, but for the vast majority of casual players. No need to be an edgy contrarian just to fit in, gather internet-points in some other ways.
>>96751586There's still no reason to play with a bad system.>but the players refuse to changeIf they refuse to play anything other than a bad system, they're bad players.
Harsh TruthWhen money is involved with the acquisition of a system, making sure that system is well-designed is more important than whether or not some faggots on the internet have "good players". When a product is designed well, it becomes worth the asking price, and takes no work to fix, because it doesn't need to be fixed.
>>96751908Only if they want to play a vague high fantasy game where the only real mechanics to engage with are combat. And not even especially good combat.
>>96751586Harsh truth: this thread isnt any cleverer no matter how many times you repost it.
D&D is like democracy - everyone knows it's not a perfect system but everything else we tried was somehow even worse.
>>96751740I be FATAL is good for rape games.
>>96751908>5e is good enoughIf you're a normie retard who loves to eat slop, yes.
>>96751740Hey now, that's not true.FATAL is at least so bad its funny and might make for some decent content for an audience.D&D 5e is the worst kind of bad, the bad where it's just fucking boring.
>>96751908Vast majority of casual players and tourists know only D&D 5e and have no idea how to play it. And threads with polling about D&D 5e on /tg/ were depated by mods. Not even once.
>>96752087>everything else we tried>Implying
>>96751908The irony is that 5e is the most played RPG on this board, with 2nd place being so far distant that's it's not even known what it is.The contrarian shitspammers on this board really have gotten out of hand.
>>96751586... how is this a harsh truth?
>>96752187>we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas
>>96751611>trying to fix a bad player is pretty much wasted effortJust to play devil's advocate (because getting new players is faster):Depends on their malfunction(s). There is a certain level that can be un-fucked. Also, new players that are bad are fully fixable, whereas people playing for 3+ years (and I mean playing on a regular basis) are best discarded, those are already ingrained behaviours they have
>>96751586Why are you acting like good systems and good players are things that come at the expense of each other? What a bizarre false dichotomy.
>>96752202This board is not represented by a piechart of fucked up industry from WotC meeting room.
>>96751586If we are talking about D&D 5e hardly so as one of the weak points of the system is to attract retarded normies and braindead faggots to the table, but not into the hobbie.
>>96752289The board is not represented by contrarian trolls, who by definition are a minority.5e is so overwhelmingly popular here that our trolls have basically given up trolling about any other RPG because there's so few people who give a damn about other games anymore, in no small part thanks to our trolls driving away most people from this place with their braindead negativity and shitspamming.
>>96752202>with 2nd place being so far distant that's it's not even known what it is.Either (for single specific game) WFRP 4e or (but only if you add all the games and editions together) CoC
>>96752355>If you talk about other game than 5e DnD, you are a trollNigga, are you all right?
>>96752129Not really, the mechanics are so wack most people can even play it to get to that part or understand how to apply the tables. I invite you to try.
>>96752087Anyone who's tried other systems very quickly discovers that D&D is shit. There's a reason it's a fucking joke around here.
>>96752355I adore that you are switched from a "worst troll" to "trolls", but still being schizo, unpaid 24/7 shill and lolcow is bad.
>>96752156>FATAL is at least so bad its funny and might make for some decent content for an audience.Is funny to read about FATAL, I assure you, it's near impossible to play.
>>96752202>muh censusThe traffic on this site dropped off so badly that the mods had to remove the IP counter.
>Everything is about D&D>And even when is not about D&D is about D&DOverwhelming power
>>96752439>Put it in greentext>Pretend other person said itWow what fascinating and complex rhetorical skills you demonstrate! Anon is right. D&D is fine, who gives a shit. But the constant contrarian blah-blah obsessively denouncing it does subsume meaningful conversation. Some anons seem to think that they're earning kharma or something, by constantly spewing vitriol towards D&D in any conversation on this board.
>>96751676>A system is good or bad depending on the game you're running and the focus of the gameplay.Nope. Some games can be bad at their intended design. You don't have to transplant the progressive need for universal validity or some bullshit. Not everything has to have a place somewhere or whatever other snowflake educational basis you're stuck on.
>>96751586Both are equally important. If you have good players and a good game it is a good time. Various deviations from that necessarily all decrease quality of experience. That might be a thing you've accepted in your life but it doesn't make it suck less. Just makes you suck more really.
>>96752652>buzzwords and sign posting!Did you get lost, sweetie?
>>96752422Severely doubt that. 2nd place is probably 3.PF.Though, we're still talking about fighting over scraps here.
>>96752669Yeah D&D is about 50% of market share. Pathfinder, CoC and VtM are the only other statistically-meaningful games, in terms of number of games and players. It's not clear whether CoC or Pathfinder is more popular, but it's definitely one of the two w/ VtM in fourth place. Although hard to say if people actually mean VtM or just WoD.
>>96752586It's funny to watch other people try to play it.
>>96752708>50%That's 5e alone. D&D (in all its various forms and editions) makes up over 80%.
>>96752662Importance is not in question here, the point was that one problem is easier to fix than the other.
>>96752719I doubt it solely because CoC and Pathfinder are estimated slightly above 10% each. And D&D 5e around 54%. So there really isn't room for the other editions to add another 30% to the numbers.
>>96752709Like watching a Unicorn, since the vast majority that tries stop at character creation.
>>96752724>Importance is not in question hereIf you want to be pedantic it was a statement. An incorrect statement at that.
>>96752664No one cares about your feeble attempts at public shaming. Cope.
>>96752732It's hard to properly estimate, thanks it not being a zero-sum matter (Contrary to our trolls beliefs, it's possible to play more than one game) and also most surveys having a natural D&D slant, but it's going to be rare to find any data that suggests that under 80% of games being played are not some type of D&D.
>>96752811It's not about it being zero-sum so much as "market share." I was looking and the only attempts (mostly summaries of what is played on places like roll20 or talked about on reddit) all give Pathfinder and CoC 10-20%, w/ 5e at 50%. But yeah it's not like there are any "official" statistics. Sales numbers aren't available.
>>96752719Each day I go on /tg/ I appreciate my group more and more.
>>96752829The Orr reports were pretty useful for giving people a glimpse of what was going on in the RPG world, even if the data didn't tell the entire picture. It's a shame we stopped seeing them half a decade ago.I think that it's fair to just say that 5e has a fuckton of players, D&D in general has a shit load, and what the fuck is Honey Heist.
>>96752598He is absolutely right. He is answering to the one well known individual on this sight with well known things to say.
>>96752974Nah, you're wrong and a bitch troll.
>>96752811>I do not play D&D>3.5%ouch
>>96753016Remember, that's the people who answered that they do play D&D.So that means those particular people answered "Yes, I play D&D, but I do not play it."It's kind of a shit survey all in all, but there's not really that many available to find with over 1,000 replies.
>>96752598>Terminally online faggot just wants to argue just about anythingUnironically take a five and touch some leaves
>>967528111) What's the data source2) What was the sample for the top survey2a) Was ti taken in States?3) Was it a multi-answer question (looks like it, but needs to be established)4) How many games a single person could mark5) Was the list predefined to those 10 (what the fuck is Honey Heist) or was it a type-in affair?
>>96753083>Put it in greentext>Pretend it's relevantWow really threw me curveball that time, anon.
>>96753040>So that means those particular people answered "Yes, I play D&D, but I do not play it."More accurate would be "Yes, I play D&D, but I'm not currently playing it."
>>96753122Except that's not the answer they've picked. If they weren't playing, they shouldn't mark down they do.I miss times when you had to pass literacy test to have voting rights. People claim it was racist, but it was actually making sure morons have no voting rights
>>96753154>"If you play d&d which version are you currently playing?">Plays Xd&d but currently doesn't have a tableIs not that hard.
>>96753196>It's not that hard being a retardPoint taken, even if I'm not sure you were making this one exactly
>>96753204Anon, I run CoC. I'm currently not having any tables, since I'm taking a break for job reasons. If you ask me "do you play ttrpgs" I would say "Yes, CoC." but if you then follow with "Are you currently playing any CoC edition" I would have to answer that I don't.
>>96752669>2nd place is probably 3.PF.That's just DnD that pretends to not being DnD.I never understood people who delude themselves that PF isn't just weirdly named DnD>oh, but it has a different publisher... so? It's literally 3.X on steroids (you can't copyright game rules) and cosmetically different setting (to not get sued over it)
>>96753122I'm gonna just have to say it's sloppy all over, because the answer isn't "I'm not currently playing", it's just flat "I do not play D&D".I'm more inclined to believe 35 people misclicked or didn't understand the question.>>96753196I think you're replying to an angsty troll.
>>96753239>Still missing the point>Still overworking his personal case>Still having no clue how surveys workProsecution has no further questions
>>967532482nd place to 5e.
>>96753257No, we are shooting to the exact same goalpost here: 35 people clicked wrong. It's >>96753204 who is the idiot and can't grasp it, searching for second meaning in a nonsensical answers, because he can't read a simple statement of "I do not play DnD" and grasp what it means.Which, if you think about it, CAN work, if we assume that's a separate survey, disconnected from the one above it. If the point of the survey was assumption everyone is playing DnD, then those 35 people are a rare group of people who don't (but then comes again set of questions raised by >>96753107)
>>96753257The confusion is because the question starts with IF you play d&d, so it assumes you DO play d&d, the main issue is that they wrote "I do not play D&D" when it should be "I'm not currently playing d&d". You could go a step further and go "I'm not currently playing d&d because I'm playing other ttrpgs" or "I'm not currently playing any ttrpgs"
>>96753107It's not worth it. You're talking to a faggot that derails threads constantly to bitch and seethe about people having negative opinions on 5e. He's been doing this for nearly 10 years and hasn't really changed tactics, while insisting that anyone who says anything bad about 5e must be one (1) singular troll.
>>96752202I am probably one of the few genuine Daggerheart enjoyers on the board (and one of the few who have actually played it and not just shit on it cause of who made it), and I take crap from pretty much everyone as soon as I mention it, even though the system is fun, might be better than the crap they play, or worse for them still, they could even be nogames.I don't understand contrarian shitters, if they want to be smug in their faggotry, there is always reddit, or /chug/ generals on /pol/.
>>96753300All everyone does is talk about d&d. Hell, how many post have you done here that don't include d&d in some way?
>>96753004Your samefagging is embaracing.
>>96753323>I don't understand contrarian shitters, if they want to be smug in their faggotry, there is always reddit, or /chug/ generals on /pol/.They're just shit.The worst part is there's nothing that can be done about them.Ignoring them doesn't work. Replying to them doesn't work. Calling them out doesn't work.You can have a troll this blatant and dedicated>>96751740>>96751776And the only thing anyone can do about it is hope he dies.
>>96752789I thought it was funny in how much it got you to seethe, which through the transitive property of emotional attachment means I care.
>>96753329Not an argument.
>>96753795Did I push a button? One day you'll realize that people who really don't care about d&d don't talk about d&d all day and in every thread.
>>96753841You're grasping at straws, schizo.
>>96753369No one cares about your feelings.Being effected by emotional attachment isn't the same thing as caring.
>>96753040>>96753122Cross referencing the answers to number of years playing, campaigns played, games/hours in, etc. would be a massive undertaking but would be pretty interesting stuff.
>>96753857Fuck, I did push your buttons. lol
>>96753871You wouldn't have to do this if you were capable of making a real argument.
>>96751586If a system is trash then i wont have fun, and then i for sure wont be a good player either
>>96753285>with IF you play d&d, so it assumes you DO play d&d>when it should be "I'm not currently playing d&d"This is your brain on 85 IQ.Imagine literally stating the intent of the question and then fucking deliberately ignore it, to have your headcanon of the question and answer it wrong.
>OP makes thread about the importance of good players over good system>Thread derails into sperging about DnD
>>96754064You must be fun at parties.
>>96753329I only post in c/Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Genesys threads and in the 40kRPG general.I browse art threads for characters and ladscapes to yoink for my game and game design threads to see if they have any neat ideas; well at least until they inevitably descend into shouting match of D&D 3.5-only tards arguing about martials vs casters.
>>96754162Said a guy who can't follow a single sentence instruction and then spends TWO HOURS defending his idiocy
>>96754087It's the D&D 5e Troll Hunter up to his usual bullshit. His latest ban must have just expired.
Obviously false, no argument necessary. You are dismissed.
>>96752087You have never tried anything else.
>>96752202It's really not surprising that almost everyone here is a retard with no taste. This does not support your position.
>>96752598It isn't fine and you did say it.
>>96754278Is the argument that the d&d hate comments are made by him as falseflags? Because those are always the ones bumping threads
>>96752664Did you?
>>96753196Do we need to use crayons or something? IF YOU DO NOT CURRENTLY HAVE A GAME, THEN IT IS NOT THE CASE THAT YOU PLAY ANYTHING AT ALL. THAT'S WHAT "PLAY" MEANS. YOU FUCKING RETARD.
>>96754345ntaDo you play a game if you are in it over time but not at this moment playing that game? If you intend to play but haven't in a month are you still playing that game? Actual questions really, when does someone become nogames? Didn't make it to the game this week? Didn't make it this month? This season? Year, decade, etc?
No, I don't believe that you are really confused about what the word play means. Put more effort into your trolling, it's too obvious.
>>96754385ntaNogames generally means just coming here to shitpost and judge others' game choices. Basically the game equivalent of a NEET.
>>96752652The intentions of the designers are ultimately irrelevant because players decide what they enjoy and what they want to play. If players want to get drunk and play a shitpost meme game of FATAL, there's nothing stopping them from doing so and enjoying themselves. I wouldn't say it makes it a good game on its own, but the intentions of the designers or if they succeeded in meeting them or not aren't relevant in determining whether the players enjoyed themselves in this session or not.
>>96754473>The intentions of the designers are ultimately irrelevant because players decide what they enjoy and what they want to playPlayers are influenced by design intention. You failed, go back to school.
>>96754385Also different guy:>Do you play a game if you are in it over time but not at this moment playing that game?If there is next meeting incoming, then yes, but that means you do not scratch the box "I on't play", you pick the edition you are playing so far and will be playing some more, you dumb faggot>If you intend to play but haven't in a month are you still playing that game?No, you are not, since you are not in an ongoing campaign nor a group doing one-shots.>Actual questions really, when does someone become nogames?Nogames don't play shit for years and are completely out of loop, but still think they have something of value to say about the state of the hobby they don't participate in for a really fucking long while (sometimes as long as quarter of their fucking life). So you can be a no game after 5 weeks, or 5 years - the important part is attitude.And then there are nevergames, who bring it step further and having very loud and often very stupid opinions about thing they never, not even once, tried.
>>96754473>If the game is broken, but you are having fun, then the game magically stops being brokenNigga, how many times have you been dropped when you were a toddler?
>>96754329More that any thread where he shows up will usually become one of his shitting grounds where the thread will go for hundreds of posts, back and forth, where he makes no real argument while pretending that everyone who replies to him is one troll.
>>96754572This could be avoided by not talking about d&d at all.
>>96754473>>96754572From the top of my head>The Witcher: Game of ImaginationCompletely broken game. But I had fun playing it during uni years. We spend two years trying to fix that game, and eventually just stopped trying, because one of the players said "hey, what if we tried Yrrhedes, less complex, so also easier to fix, right?". Game's still broken, the combat still is all or nothing, spells are completely broken, the archery is just absurd etcBtw; Yrrehedes lasted us 5 sessions, before we realised it only can support dungeon and hex crawls>FATEEveryone knows this game is shit. And it's completely busted and useless, unless you have genuine autism and then it might make sense to you. But we had fun playing the gonzo pulp campaign, especially since the GM hide from us it's going to be planetary romance early on. Game's still broken, aspects still make no sense if you have a functional brain and bean-counting +2s for mechanical advantage is retarded>Dicey TalesThis game pretends to be pulp, but it's just shitty Barbarians of Lemuria reskin. As a result, you get bogged down in useless details and it's slow as fuck. But had fun playing it. Didn't even try to fix it, just ditched it after the campaign>Broken CompassI have a love-hate relationship with this game. Perfect for pulp... and it's atrociously designed in the same time, with surprisingly slow resolution due to rerolls. There is no granularity. Either you have 6 ranks in something, or you are fucked. And there is no fix to the fact it's purely reactive game with weird combat resolution where you can shoot your way out of trouble, but can't punch it. But had crazy fun with Canon Films-like campaign>2d20 ConanThis is just a reskin of Achtung! Cthulhu and it's blatant. Anything that isn't momentum fucking sucks and is broken. But I had fun. We tried to homebrew the kinks, but turns out, we might as well write an entirely new system for it. But I had fun, while the game is still broken piece of shit
>>96754313The amount of D&D hate is incredibly artificial and performed by a very small group of obsessed trolls. All data we have demonstrated this years ago. Hell, basic logic and understanding of how trolls operate make this clear to everyone. The only people who would even pretend this isn't the case would be a troll, and all for the sake of enabliong them to continue trolling. Disliking D&D? Not trolling. Criticizing it? Not necessarily trolling.Shitspamming D&D hate any time the game is even mentioned, or even when it isn't mentioned?Letting trolls get this lazy is insane.
>>96754741Nta but>Shitspamming D&D hate any time the game is even mentioned, or even when it isn't mentioned?Never happened itt.Menawhile, you dedicated good ten post claiming people pointing DnD is kinda bad are just trolls hating the most beloved game ever.I'm in this hobby since 2006.I never played a single session of DnD. Read 3e, not my thing, never felt the need to check other edition.Better yet - I didn't meet a player who was playing DnD or considered it their "main" system since 2015. If I recall correctly, that's the year 5e came out.That's how "big" this game is in my experience.
>>96754795>troll immediately lies>Never happened itt.>>96751740>>96751760>>96751776Who are you trying to gaslight?
>>96751611shut up, hole. we gotta keep these divorce rates down. I am good at chiseling the rough edges off of players .Iron sharpens iron.
>>96754805That "d&dogshit" guy is pretty persistent and consistent cunt.https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/%22d%26dogshit%22/page/1/
>>96754795>Menawhile, you dedicated good ten postOne troll in this thread spent more posts than that trying to create a bogey man out of everyone complaining about the anti-D&D trolls on this board.Like he thinks 4chan having basic bitch trolls who complain about whatever happens to be popular is news and not something everyone is aware of.
>>96754805>Schizo has an episodeUnironically seek medical help
>>96754907>Like he thinks>thinksYou are greatly exaggerating what he's doing
>>96754087It is literally a single 5e schizo derailing any thread.
>>96754805You need to seek for a medical help. I don't know what could happen in ones life to shill for D&D 5e for years so badly. At this point I even doubt you actually play 5e. You are very mad, sad person who need to be offline more.
>>96754851It's almost like the game is bad and earned itself a common nickname, like how basically calls you "schizo", "faggot" or "retard".
>>96757343You can't really complain about him when you're bumping a thread by doing the same.
>>96751586And here's a harsher truth: good players are extremely rare, can't be made, and there's no way to find them if you didn't win the lottery and have at least (1) in your friend group.
>>96757784I can also report more and more of his off-topic posts. One time in the thread I've created, it helped.
>>96751586Sure, but good players in a bad system is still a bad time.
>>96754719>>2d20 Conan>This is just a reskin of Achtung! Cthulhu and it's blatant.Are you actually retarded?
>>96758484I'd also add that a player that doesn't want to be a good player will never improve either. Inexperience and nervousness will make what could be a great player into a bad one, but if they actually want to play and are actively trying to enjoy the game, it's better to keep them around and have the better players rub off on them.
>>96753365Cry about it.
>>96757332>>96757343You are a human shitstain.Stop shitspamming.
>>96757343You have to understand, the average redditor has their identity extremely tied up in their favorite brands.
>>96758732Irony at its finest
>>96758712Nta, but if you played both 2d20 AC and then move on to Conan, you will instantly notice most of the rules are just copy-paste. Especially obvious with ranged combat, which is 1:1 copy-paste, except you have bows and javelins instead of guns and it makes the whole thing beyond awkward.
>>96758732There is literally nothing you can to stop me from posting about how 5E is a shit game here. Nothing. I will not stop, for any reason, if the subject comes up. If you don't like it, leave, because I'm not breaking a rule by sharing my genuine opinion, you faggot.
>>96758772Conan 2d20 came out in 2017. Achtung Cthulhu 2d20 came out in 2021. You *are* a fucking retard.
Harsh Truth:Whenever anyone claims good players are more important than good systems, they're using that claim as damage control to protect their personal favorite system from criticism or hate.
>>96758801So are you saying they took rules for machine guns they didn't have yet, inserted them into Conan, but spray-painted it with "Bow" paint?Because that's even weirder than just copy-pasting AC rules into Iron Age game
>>96758811>t. nevergameCool bait, nigga, grab a (You)
>>96758790Don't be mad when you're called a troll then.
