Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decade — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started.>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94994969/#95006768>Previous thread:>>96704041>Thread Question:How old when you played a first decade D&D game (OD&D, Holmes, B/X, BE(CMI), or AD&D 1e) for the first time? What do you remember about your first session? What got you hooked?
>What's an OSR?>Don't know how to get started?The friendly n00b guides can be found here:>n00b DM's Guidehttps://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B>n00b Player's Handbookhttps://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0Want to contribute to the thread but don't know where to start? Use this table.>1. Make a spell>2. Make a monster>3. Make a dungeon special>4. Make a wilderness location>5. Make an urban set piece>6. Make a magic item>7. Make a class, race, or race-as-class>8. Make a 4-10 room lair.>9. Make a trap>10. Roll 2D10 and combine
So people played D&D 50 years ago? Come to think of it, modern D&D doesn't have that many of either dragons or dungeons. What did dragons in D&D even do? Just kill adventurers? Were they sentient?
>>96762918They were monsters, sometimes they were big, sometimes small. Players could kill them and take their treasure. It was fun.
>>96762918Imagine a board game, and it was about getting as much treasure and escaping from the dungeon without getting killed.Yep, those were the days ( before I was alive )
>>96763165>a board gameA board game where you're not limited by the board and can do almost anything you can imagine
Preparing to run Dolmenwood as my first OSR game as my books just arrived. I want my players to be an all-human party entering Dolmenwood in a manner similar to the chronicles of narnia's wardrobe. Is this an interesting kickoff to a campaign? or do you all have any other suggestions
>>96763384That sounds fun enough.
>>96762918>So people played D&D 50 years ago?You look like you're expressing surprise that a game published about 51 years ago that became the most popular of its kind was played 50 years ago.>modern D&D doesn't have that many of either dragons or dungeons.Old school D&D didn't have that many dragons running around, not in officially published material anyway. That was part of the inspiration for the Dragonlance setting where dragons would be present in the game, not just dungeons.>Were they sentient?Even in the LBB they are said to be intelligent and some were able to talk and cast spells.
>>96763593>Old school D&D didn't have that many dragons running aroundThere's always black dragons in swamps in OD&D.
>>96763593>Old school D&D didn't have that many dragons running aroundThey're in various encounter tables. What Dragonlance set out to do was make dragons central to the setting because they somehow weren't important enough. Storygamer silliness IMO
>>96763612>StorygamerWoof. Only trolls use that phrase. Easy tipoff to disregard anything you say.
>>96763593>Old school D&D didn't have that many dragons running around, False. They're extremely common in encounter tables.>DragonlanceOff-topic garbage.
>>96763845Your posts are off-topic garbage.
>>96763845You really need to fuck off, forever.
>>96763602>>96763845Even though >>96763612 mentions encounter tables he is at least smart enough to understand that my statement wasn't directed at random encounters or even some planned encounters but that I was talking about, as he puts it, dragons being central to the setting.
>>96763384>Preparing to run Dolmenwood as my first OSR game as my books just arrived.Cool.>I want my players to be an all-human party entering DolmenwoodGreat.>in a manner similar to the chronicles of narnia's wardrobe.Gay.
>>96764975They understood you perfectly well. You were talking about metaplot rubbish, and they brought the discussion back to what is *actually* central in D&D.
>>96765243>metaplot = settingGreat chatting with you.
>>96765269>metaplot = settingIn 2e/3e/5e, certainly. In first decade D&D, absolutely not.
>>96765269>>96764975OD&D and AD&D have an implied setting that you can conclude from the rules.https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx-230B8tqxvMmFrNGJFU3hGNnM
So is playing this kind of thing actually fun or? What's the point of, for example, alignments if you're all just essentially graverobbers and B&E enthusiasts?
>>96765421Something that always pops to my mind when seeing this is "how would humanoids live in this reality?" meaning if you had MU, clerics and strong warriors how would medieval society evolve? Considering that there are monsters around? Would feudalism pop up? Would MU really be secretive guys that hide their spells or would they create a magocratic society trying to min max on those fireballs? Basically this kind of thing, anyone tough of these kind of things? What I mean in general is that if we take 3.5 and take it to its logical conclusion we get Eberron (more or less), but if we take ODD or ADD I don't think we would get the supposed setting as proposed in that doument.
>>96765682>So is playing this kind of thing actually fun or?We've been playing it for 50 years and we still are. So yes. Very much so.>What's the point of, for example, alignments Alignment is an actual game mechanic that affects morale, loyalty, reaction rolls, which spells you can cast, whether you can use poison, which hirelings and monsters you can hire, and so on. When you switch to the wargaming tier of play, it also tends to guide faction building through the afore-mentioned mechanical effects on morale, reactions, and loyalty.In OD&D and chainmail, alignment constraints on factions were even enforced explicitly.>if you're all just essentially graverobbers and B&E enthusiasts?Firstly, Gygaxian D&D is neither about graverobbing (most dungeons are not graves) nor about breaking and entering (no idea where you got that from).But either way, the idea of alignment as purely or mostly character flavour and personality/backstory is 2e/3e/5e garbage. In Gygaxian D&D, alignment had many tangible and strictly defined in-game effects.
>>96765827>anyone tough of these kind of things? To an extent, yes. Both ACKS and Harnmaster did dedicate a fair amount of thought to these things, coming to quite different conclusions, certainly also because of different game mechanics.>if we take ODD or ADD I don't think we would get the supposed setting as proposed in that doument.That's a fair question. Honestly, I don't have an answer: Real magic that actually works, ubiquitous terrible monsters, planar horrors, what would their effect on society be?But I do have some theories, and I'm highly scpetical of your "magocracy" outcome in O/AD&D's milieu. A magocracy is a society in which Magic-Users impose their will on everybody else through magical power. Absent monsters and demons, that's almost certainly what would happen: once you have removed outside pressure, intra-species competition becomes the main driver of societal and even biological evolution, and high level Magic-Users certainly would have the upper hand in such a conflict.However, in the "real" O/AD&D world, the ongoing struggle between humanity and the chthonic forces ensures that when the monsters come knocking at the city gates, the local ruling MU will have to make a choice: Surrender to the monsters (neutral), ally with them (evil/chaotic), or quit the bullshit and take arms against them (lawful/good)?Ultimately, only harmonious (good/lawful) societies in which MUs, Fighters, Clerics, and non-classed individuals all collaborate against the common enemy can survive and thrive. And in those societies, almost certainly even Thieves and Assassins would do their part in war times. In fact, that's probably the reason they're tolerated in the first place.
>>96765832Just shut up and fuck off, you complete retard.You're wrong on so many levels, educating you just so you can start to understand how stupid you are would likely take years.
>>96759863>IIRC, Priests and Clerics were later additions and the original classes were Fighting Man, Thief and Magic User.You do not remember correctly, I'm afraid. The Thief was never part of original D&D, it was invented by some fans after the game's release.>>96765391The cyclops monster is an orc. There's another picture in the book of adventurers fighting a bunch of them. I'm unsure what the feral hoes are supposed to be. Harpies, maybe?
>>96763845Hilarious how mad a simple statement like this makes the resident troll. He can't even bring himself to put a realistic distance between his samefagging seetheposts.
>>96766092It's absolutely true that thieves were introduced in Supplement I, but clerics are also known to be the last class of the core three to be created: Chainmail had heroes and wizards but no clerics or patriarchs or anything to that effect.
>>96765832>it also tends to guide faction buildingIn fact, this is the original purpose of alignment in the game, which is why OD&D/Chainmail, the original game, is more rigid about it. Morale/Loyalty, hiring restrictions and reaction rolls are also all connected to factions (and to each other) pretty obviously.
>>96766111Sure, absolutely, but Anon says he believes that Clerics were later additions *than Thieves*, which is what I'm responding to.>the original classes were Fighting Man, Thief and Magic Useris simply incorrect. If he, or you, had said the original classes were Fighting-Man and Wizard I would've understood he meant in a pre-D&D state and not replied.As an aside, it's sort of funny that the hobbit, vampire and even F/MU multiclass all predate the Cleric as character classes.
>>96766138Yeah, it's a pretty elegant system, in a "show don't tell" kind of way. Alignment as an actual game mechanics is one of the most misunderstood facets of Gygaxian D&D because so many people didn't read or understand the DMG. And also because the later narrative / railroading editions retroactively colour their expectations about what alignment must be.These three simple tables, if properly applied, have a profound effect in a campaign in which the players actually take advantage of all that the game has to offer and the DM takes them in stride as a referee rather than as a wannabe novel writer.
>>96765927Yeah I proposed a magocracy cause when wizads can "spam" spell each day for little cost with great effect they become real strong, but in general there is to believe how hard life in such a plane would be, with demons running around, vampires, dragons etc, makes me think if humanity could even reach the medieval age to begin with.
>>96766160We agree. I was just sharing an interesting titbit of information and implicitly making a hypothesis about why the other Anon confused the order of introduction of the cleric and thief.
>>96765832>A>We've been playing it for 50 years and we still are. So yes. Very much so.You, personally? Are you like 70 years old? How are you using a computer, and 4chan, at that?>strict alignment restraintsDoes this mean your PC could be a murdering psychopath who rapes and tortures but be LG just because they belong to the LG faction and do evil things to CE creatures? How would a PC party of differing alignment even work, then?>Firstly, Gygaxian D&D is neither about graverobbing (most dungeons are not graves) nor about breaking and entering (no idea where you got that from).I don't know. I read the primer in the sticky and that's the impression I've gotten. The party doesn't do quests, they go somewhere they're not supposed to be and try to leave with treasure.It's not that I'm not intrigued by this but I'm just a 5ebabby and have played Planescape Torment 10 years ago and this all seems wild. >>96766042I'm the Anon the post is replying to. Why this outburst of insults?
>>96766187>makes me think if humanity could even reach the medieval age to begin withYeah, even sustaining agriculture, and hence urbanisation and any kind of society that isn't just hunter-gatherers, would be a extremely challenging. I think Clerics would play a crucial role with spells for improving the productivity of fields. We only have Create Water, Purify Food & Drink, and Create Food & Water in the PHB, if I remember correctly, and that's already a lot but, from the worldbuilding point of view, specific agriculture-related spells should exist. Something like Plant Growth but for cereals instead of thickets and weeds.
>>96766225It would genuinely take several thousand words to explain why he's such a retard. Like someone saying "The earth is flat and made of cheese" being so wrong in just eight words that you don't even know where to begin with correcting him.
>>96766245But what is he wrong about? Is he like some of the tradLARP retards who dream about the "good old days" but would end up in ER if they had to shovel for 30 minutes? Was the game not like he says it was/is?
>>96766225>You, personally? Are you like 70 years old? How are you using a computer, and 4chan, at that?I'm in my 50s. I've started playing around 1981, so "only" 44 years for me. >Does this mean your PC could be a murdering psychopath who rapes and tortures but be LGTorture is absolutely 100% compatible with being Lawful Good, as Gygax explicitly said on more than one occasion. In fact, This is a classic 2e / WotC misconception on alignment, also caused by the fact that those games use epic fantasy (e.g. Tolkien) and superhero comics as inspiration source material rather than Appendix N.As for rape, I don't let my players explore sexual themes at my table, so it has never come up.>How would a PC party of differing alignment even work, then?AD&D has a bunch of specific rules on who and what e.g. Paladins and Rangers can associate with.>they go somewhere they're not supposed to be and try to leave with treasureAnother misconception from post-Gygax D&D. Going into a dungeon or out in the wilds, killing evil and chaotic monsters, and taking their possessions as rightful loot is exactly what a Lawful Good hero does in AD&D. Doubly so because by doing so they gain experience, power, and levels, which is what will allow them to lead armies and fight more effectively when war comes.>>96766225>I'm the Anon the post is replying to. Why this outburst of insults?There's ONE specific guy, known as 2etard or fishfag, who is angry that the general is about first decade D&D only and excludes 2e because of how it deviates from Gygaxian D&D. He's been pestering the general for years, trying to topic shift it unsuccessfully for a very long time. You'll learn to recognise him and ignore him if you stick around.
>>96766193Very reasonable.
>>96766225>>96766245Please don't feed the troll. Stick to the on-topic discussion.
>>96766225>Why this outburst of insults?The guy having the chimpout is some sort of mentally ill troll who can't stand that AD&D 2e doesn't belong in this thread. For some reason, he thinks that spewing deranged insults will make everyone agree with him, instead of look down on him. It can't be helped, he's a form of detritus that's basically inevitable on an anonymous imageboard.
>>96766252He's this weird little "gygaxian" dickrider gremlin, who's skates between being half-right with a drop of real information and completely wrong on a fundamental level.>Was the game not like he says it was/is?The "game" was never a unified thing to begin with, with rules open to interpretation (and modification) and no two groups playing the game in the same way. "Open to interpretation" doesn't even really begin to explain how loose and poorly worded the rules were, with "demanding personal interpretation" being more accurate.The problem with how wrong he is is that he's wrong about the basic fundamental concept of what RPGs are and were, and it's actually daunting to figure out where to even begin to explain to him how wrong he is about essentially everything.
>>96766282>Torture is absolutely 100% compatible with being Lawful Good, as Gygax explicitly said on more than one occasion.Respectfully, I think you're misremembering this; torture is described more than once in the rulebooks as an evil act, analogously to the use of poison. What Gygax said was LG that I know of was stuff like killing orc babies, since they will only grow up to become adult orcs, who are innately evil monsters.In other words, we can see a kind of division where the act of slaying is not innately evil, whereas the *method* can be.
>>96766292>>96766298Fuck the fuck off already, you brain poison.
>>96766322nayrt, but I swear I've seen it that torture is fine for LG when it means deterring Chaotic/Evil from transgressing against LG.
>>96766322Gygax would contradict himself constantly and endlessly. Trying to use him as a point of authority is ironic, because even Gygax himself said not to do that.
>>96766282>>How would a PC party of differing alignment even work, then?>AD&D has a bunch of specific rules on who and what e.g. Paladins and Rangers can associate with.To elaborate on this, early D&D was founded on an assumption of 20-50 players per DM, open tables, multiple PCs per player, adversarial play, and parties splitting and forming based on who actually shows up at every given session. So parties with characters of incompatible alignments wouldn't necessarily work, and players would have to agree on which PC from their stable to use on each foray. Even if you run a semi-open table, you can still have players create multiple characters and be flexible on which PC is used in each session, using some form of 1:1 time when no play is happening, requiring returning to safety at the end of each session, and using the many downtime rules from the DMG to enforce/encourage rotation, including training, disease and parasites (another hidden alignment mechanic through the Paladin's special abilities), hireling, and henchman procurement delays, Assassin missions (Assassins are the Kings of Downtime), construction rules, and so on.
>>96766282You spend way too much time trying to create a boogeyman, shouldn't you be busy dying already?
>>96766282I have a feeling playing D&D during your time was better simply because it was easier to schedule people back then so you got to play more of it, but maybe not. It seems like a weird game in which every character is exactly the same - some poor fuck who wants to become Elon Musk when they grow up - which is an impersonal, but honest way to play PCs. D&D 5e always seemed full of artifacts that serve no purpose but I always assumed they did in the past - like hammers, pitons, crowbars, rope, etc.>>96766315So everybody played what today would be considered a homebrew back then?>>96766360>20-50 players per DMWait what? Where did people play this? It's almost impossible to schedule our 6 man group reliably once every week, not to mention nobody house is that big. Is that just a pre-00s USA thing?
>>96766298>mentally ill troll who can't stand that AD&D 2eAD&D 2e is off-topic on this general, has been for many years, and was created in opposition to Gygaxian D&D. Get over it.
>>96766381>muh boogeymanLmao, it's hilarious that after all this time you're still paralytically stuck in the same 200-word vocabulary.
>>96766252> Is he like some of the tradLARP retards who dream about the "good old days" but would end up in ER if they had to shovel for 30 minutes? Was the game not like he says it was/is?He's basically a "BroSR" retard.
>>96766393Wrong, retard.OSR started out of fear that WotC, which held all the rights to older editions, would stop reprinting them in order to avoid competition for 3e. OSR did not start in the 90s, after 2e was released. It started around 2002-2003, not long after 3rd editions release.You completely retarded mong.
>>96766322I think you have to distinguish between a) Torture of evil individuals that is aimed a specific rightful cause, such as extracting information, and done in legally sanctioned situations.b) Torture for the sake of torture as an end in and of itself, or to inflict pain on creatures somebody dislikes.The first one is perfectly compatible with LG, the second one isn't
>>96766389>I have a feeling playing D&D during your time was better simply because it was easier to schedule people back thenNot him, but this was absolutely the case. Computer games didn't even exist. Imagine if everyone in your town who wanted to play Xbox had to go to your house, and they could only do it if you were hand-cranking the Xbox to life the whole time.>So everybody played what today would be considered a homebrew back then?Again, that guy you're replying to here is an angry speg and you won't ever get a non-troll response out of him.>Wait what? Where did people play this?Not at the same time. A 20-50 man player pool, from which you'd draw maybe eight players for a given session. For larger player pools it was also common to have more than one co-DM for the same campaign; Gygax did this himself.
>>96766393Did you read my post at all before responding to it? That's exactly what I said. Don't let the 2etard wind you up so hard you lose track of the negatives in a sentence.
>>96766393Please stop saying "for many years". It's been off-topic the whole time, since the very beginning.
>>96766440There is no "2etard", you faggot. You keep trying to make a boogeyman out of everyone that disagrees with you, because you are a disingenuous troll who can't argue directly and always needs to make a sideshow out of people telling you to stop being such a little shit.
>>96766453The archive tells you that you are lying, and yet you still lie.
>>96766459>muh boogeyman
>I'm the tourist that originally started this shitflinging with >>96765682>>96766401>racism and misogyny on TwitterI'm not particularly racist or misogynistic but when I see this as an argument about why somebody should be dismissed I instantly lose any trust in the validity of any other arguments the person talking is making.>>96766432That all seems wild and really fucking cool, but I'm not sure if I could ever adjust.
>>96765682No, its terrible and icky with maths and colonialism. Go away. If an anon can't be assed to read the first 2 posts of a general they're not going to be worth handholding through the rest of it.
>>96766389>playing D&D during your time was better simply because it was easier to schedule people back then so you got to play more of itThat was definitely a huge component. As a small kid I spent most of my weekends playing D&D, for probably 8-12 hours each time.Most of it is still doable, though, thanks to the interwebs, if you can tolerate Discord.>>20-50 players per DM>Wait what? Where did people play this?20-50 players in the campaign, not in each single session. Picrel gives you detailed information on how to do it, the top quote is from page 5 of the first D&D book ever published, LBB1.>It's almost impossible to schedule our 6 man group reliably once every week, not to mention nobody house is that big.See, that's another of the sick things about 2e/WotC D&D, the presumption that you have to coordinate with a set number of players to have a session because you're running a unified campaign centred around the STORY of an individual party of specifically identified PCs.In an open or semi-open table, you don't need to schedule with anybody. You just have a set time and place, and whoever shows up plays. By the end of the session, all characters have to return to safety.
>>96766401>He's basically a "BroSR" retard.Nice try. When the BrOSR started LEARNING AD&D I had already been playing for almost four decades.
>>96766480>I'm the tourist that originally started this shitflingingDon't worry about it. That guy isn't your fault, he's legitimately mentally ill and has been obsessed with this general for several years. He oscillates between trying to topic slide it, throwing these assrages when he realizes he still can't do it, and starting rival generals that inevitably die on the vine. Anything might set him off.>That all seems wild and really fucking cool, but I'm not sure if I could ever adjust.No, very few people play like that anymore, you'll find that the current OSR is mostly your typical DM and 3-5 players like any table. I think a lot of people ITT wish they could have one of those huge games, but the conditions just aren't there for it anymore.
>>96766480>I'm not particularly racist or misogynistic but when I see this as an argument about why somebody should be dismissed I instantly lose any trust in the validity of any other arguments the person talking is making.A lot of "BrOSR" guys genuinely do just use D&D as a way to practice proxy-/pol/-warfare. You know those guys who keep spamming "freakshit/storyshit/storygame" nonsense about how if you don't play White Male Fighters with no personality, you're a homosexual deviant? Those are basically BrOSR retards. We even have a BrOSR retard who pops up often in this general who just screams that everyone who disagrees with him is "brown" like that's the end of the argument.Yes, it's cringey to try and "cancel" people for not being sufficiently left, but the guy explaining BrOSR really couldn't just leave that part out because it actually is a fairly prominent aspect of the BrOSR identity.
>>96766504I think my brain is going to explode. Is that why all these people wore fantasy bullshit in the 90's and prior? I always thought THAT was old school roleplaying.
>>96766540You really need to stop acting like you speak for this general and that you're not a retarded troll.
>>96766548>Is that why all these people wore fantasy bullshit in the 90's and prior?People wore what? Sorry, I'm not following. But 1990s D&D was not old school = Gygaxian D&D, that started to die around 1984 and was completely over by the time Gygax was booted out of TSR.
>>96766513>rides gygax's nuts>believes there's one TRVE way to play>is completely wrong about most things and has a severe learning disabilityNah, you're BrOSR, through and through.
>Tourist>>96766540>I think a lot of people ITT wish they could have one of those huge games, but the conditions just aren't there for it anymore.That's genuinely heartbreaking. I enjoy playing 5e with my friends but it happens rarely because it's always something and we live in separate towns.>>96766547>You know those guys who keep spamming "freakshit/storyshit/storygame" nonsense about how if you don't play White Male Fighters with no personality, you're a homosexual deviant? No, I really don't, because I'm a board tourist. >Yes, it's cringey to try and "cancel" people for not being sufficiently left, but the guy explaining BrOSR really couldn't just leave that part out because it actually is a fairly prominent aspect of the BrOSR identity.It's just in my experience, whenever people in a fandom or hobby try to dismiss somebody for muh racism, the person in question tends to be more knowledgeable and passionate about the hobby than them.>>96766588I vaguely remember hearing about people wearing fantasy costumes and "roleplaying", and that's what my brain always associated with D&D before I ever played it. I always assumed you had to wear a wizard outfit and do a silly voice to play a wizard, for example.
>>96766440>Did you read my post at all before responding to it?Apologies for the friendly fire. When I identify a post as written by 2etard = fishfag I immediately stop reading. Looks like that led me into error and sin. I shall atone by saying three Hail Garys and prayforyourtable.
>>96766548>wore fantasy bullshitI'm not really sure what you mean by this, but for a brief rundown of the story-driven play Anon is talking about, you know Dragonlance, right? That was a set of modules before it was a novel series*, and those modules were based on the idea of a set party playing through a long, epic quest. The first module came out in 1984 and was a massive hit right away, because that sort of LotR Simulator was what lots of players had wanted D&D to be the whole time. It wasn't designed to do that, though, it was designed for the kind of gameplay Anon talks about, and so when we talk about old-school gameplay what we mean is recovering that original play style that precedes the quest railroads. That's why the commonly accepted end of the old-school era is 1984, when that first Dragonlance module came out. There had already been pushes in that story-based direction before then, but when Dragonlance became a huge sales hit it more or less wiped out the older way, at least in terms of TSR releases. A few modules of the older style were still released after DL1, but the ship had basically sailed at that point.* Or more accurately they sort of came out in parallel, but with the novels delayed compared to the modules covering the same ground. This isn't really an important distinction though.
>>96766611>I vaguely remember hearing about people wearing fantasy costumes and "roleplaying", and that's what my brain always associated with D&D before I ever played it.Ah, no, that's absolutely not how Gygaxian D&D was ever played. Gygax even disapproved if you did funny voices. Nobody wore costumes. D&D was born and developed by grognards (wargamers) in wargaming clubs.LARPing / community theater stuff is a completely different culture of play.
>>96766611>it happens rarely because it's always something and we live in separate towns.Exactly.>I vaguely remember hearing about people wearing fantasy costumes and "roleplaying",Ohhh, you mean like that. No, that's just goofy, nothing to do with us. (If you're actually doing it outdoors and so on it's LARP, which is still goofy and still nothing to do with us but people do do it, sometimes with insane levels of investment. Look up Bicolline for an extreme example.)>>96766616Roll 1d12 to see how many wandering encounters you must fight in penance. Ego te absolvo, in nomine Gariis, et Arnesonii, et spiritus ludi, Amen.
>>96766651>Gygax even disapproved if you did funny voices.*muffled angry disembodied voice from behind the filing cabinet*
>>96766651It's just that I'm 30 and both of these ways to play came way before my time - I had no idea there were such factional splits in "D&D society". I'm enjoying discovering literal D&D lore. I think a documentary needs to be made about this - Attenborough style.>>96766672>Ohhh, you mean like that. No, that's just goofy, nothing to do with us.Well that's what I thought for 15 years.So my conclusion - there are 3 types or DnD:>old wargaming SAW simulator sandbox DnD>goofy costume DnD>modern heroic power fantasy DnD
>>96766611>It's just in my experience, whenever people in a fandom or hobby try to dismiss somebody for muh racism, the person in question tends to be more knowledgeable and passionate about the hobby than them.You've got to keep in mind that guy wasn't "dismissing" them for being racist/misogynistic, he was explaining that was part of the identity they present and identify with, because that's genuinely how they've decided to present themselves. It's actually part of this whole stupid "culture war" business, where "trad gaming" is for straight white males and everything else is for women and minorities, and the more "traditional" your games are, the more you're definitely 100% not a homosexual. The main reason the BrOSR is a bunch of fags is the whole arguing about what the "True Old School" is. The politics business is just the unfortunate reality we live in, where politics gets dragged into everything. Feel free to ignore that part, especially on 4chan.
>>96766611>>You know those guys who keep spamming "freakshit/storyshit/storygame" nonsense about how if you don't play White Male Fighters with no personality, you're a homosexual deviant? >No, I really don't, because I'm a board tourist.FYI, that doesn't happen here. Not sure the extent to which it happens in the BrOSR, but this isn't a BrOSR board, that's twitter culture wars bullshit. He's making shit up in a desperate attempt to disrupt a constructive and respectful conversation.>>96766687>*muffled angry disembodied voice from behind the filing cabinet*I've never had the fortune of playing with Gary, but I wouldn't be surprised if he said something like that.>>96766706>It's just that I'm 30 and both of these ways to play came way before my time - I had no idea there were such factional splits in "D&D society". I'm enjoying discovering literal D&D lore. I think a documentary needs to be made about this - Attenborough style.You might enjoy Secrets of Blackmoor, then! It's a documentary covering the years that led to the creation of OD&D. Heavily focused on Arneson's contributions.
>>96766723>He's making shit up in a desperate attempt to disrupt a constructive and respectful conversation.You're lying heavily while spreading misinformation with dots of information, hoping everyone is too dumb to call you out. And, when you're called out, you sperg out about it to cry about your boogeyman. You're a piece of shit.>FYI, that doesn't happen here.What kind of bullshit lie are you even trying to pull here. How the fuck can you even try to pass off that lie?https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/white%20male/type/op/
>Tourist>>96766723https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOUksDJCijwWhen I started playing D&D roughly 10 years ago, my friends made me watch this with them. I always assumed THAT was the way DnD was played in the "good old days". I had ZERO idea it all started in the 70s.>Not sure the extent to which it happens in the BrOSR, but this isn't a BrOSR board,But what is a BrOSR board, then? I noticed 90% of posts here are not about trannies.I'll check the movie out. I like understanding the whys of things, and nothing in modern D&D ever suggests anything about its past.>>96766749You like AD&D 2e (did I even call it correctly). Why?
>>96766749>muh boogeyman
>>96766389>So everybody played what today would be considered a homebrew back then?It would inevitably include house rules, because even something like initiative wasn't straightforward and people would interpret the wording in different ways. Or, they would just outright change those rules outright because they were pretty clumsy and awkward.Even Gygax explicitly admitted to using house rules, even beyond the natural differences in interpretation that result from the rules being often obtuse and abstract.
>>96766784If you're super interested in all the gritty details, there's a book called Playing at the World that goes into the creation of D&D with extreme granularity. It's long as fuck though, two volumes in the latest edition.
>>96766810>two volumes in the latest editionIs it still being expanded upon??
>>96766837I don't actually know how much he expanded it, it may just be that the first edition was a fucking phone book and he decided to split it up for purely practical reasons.
>>96766810I'm not sure my video game rotted brain could read a 1000+ pages, but I may just do that one day
>>96766798>old man trying his hardest to fit inPeople don't actually post like that here.
>>96766453Weird how you tried to just rush past >>96766427
>First decade D&D started around 2002-2003>Why is nobody taking me seriously
>>96766945>has no idea when the OSR started>shitposts anywayJust shut the fuck up, you total retard.
>>96767038"OSR" is just an odd way of saying "first decade D&D". First decade D&D started in 1974. When people started to say "OSR" instead of "first decade D&D" is utterly irrelevant: It's still first decade D&D.
>>96767095Well, it's also the distinction of following the rules procedures in those editions of D&Ds with the understanding that even back then people played in a more freeform way comparable to modern D&D i.e. no strict time keeping, no random encounter tables, no mapping, no caller
>>96767095For fuck's sake, you should at least educate yourself to the standards of "I've at least read the wikipedia page."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_School_Renaissance
>>96767125Sure, it's about playing first decade D&D in a certain way, roughly speaking as Gygax did. That was also born in 1974, officially at least. Claiming that what we are doing here started in 2002 is completely missing the point of this general.
>>96767159No, that's you imposing some bizarre interpretation of "broadly" into "ass-pained strictly". >roughly speaking as Gygax didThat's entirely your head canon.
>>96767134>wikipediangmi
>>96767170You having sub-wikipedia level intelligence is embarrassing.
>>96767169>>96767179>less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agencyThat is, as Gygax and Arneson did it and *not* as Hickman, 2e, 3e, and 5e did and still do.
>>96767169If the rules existed there had to be someone that was playing that way such that they felt it was a "rule" to begin with.We don't talk about Gygax making shit up and putting untested content in the books. Shush.
>Someone did homebrew rules for running a Birthright-esq campaign using ACKS>Regency points can be used as fate pointsThat's fucking genius and I'm annoyed at myself for not thinking about it, it's such a subtle way to convey the PCs are destined for greater things tby their divine blood.Holy shit that's the good stuff. I might steal that outright.Also:>Piece of shit>BoogeymanGentlemen, slaughter the fatted calf, light the bonfires, man the harpoons and dance to the rough music; the prodigal fish returned.
Why the fuck are you feeding the troll by arguing with him, Anon? You know that he has a brain problem and literally cannot stop insisting that 2e belongs here.
>>96767189This is the nonsense you've been spewing for ages, which has been routinely debunked. >less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agencyYou're ignoring the countless linear adventures of OD&D and AD&D1e, while also dismissing the idea that players have agency in later editions. You're trying to invent pure bullshit, and it's sickening how much you seem to actually have allowed yourself to start believing in your own lies.Player agency is good. It's not exclusive to pre-2e D&D. Hell, one of the first OSR games was C&C, which was built off of the d20 chasis in order to abide by the OGL, which opened up the door for other games like OSRIC to follow once C&C showed that WotC would actually uphold the OGL.
>>96767210You are the troll.
>>96767203Tbh it seems pretty pointless to combine Birthright's large-scale abstract domain management with ACKS' spreadsheet autism approach, especially considering Birthright was barely playtested whereas ACKS is robust to the last millimeter. What are you seeing as the benefit of blending those? Genuinely curious.>the prodigal fish returnedDoes this mean Son of Todd died? I can't be assed to go and check.
>>96767247>he is once again attempting the "C&C is TRVE OSR" playbookFor the love of God at least renew your material.
>>96767210You really need to take your BrOSR ass out of here and quit being such a dumb cunt.How this general got infected with the absolute worst part of the OSR is pretty fucking unfortunate.
>>96767280>gets hit by well known fact>"get new material!"The truth doesn't change, you dumbass.
>>96767247>players have agency in later editions
>>96767305>>96766858
>>96767210He's going to be here regardless, he's going to shit up the thread regardless, he's not going to leave regardless, these things are known and proven.Might as well engage in the kind of bloodsports our bearbaiting ancestors did and get some entertainment out of the fuckhead.>>96767262I've got a bit of a soft spot for Birthright I suppose, I do like the idea of a very heavily grounded, low(er) fantasy setting that leans more towards medieval aesthetics, intrigue and politics.It's one of those flawed but conceptually cool settings that tickle the same 'I can fix this' instinct as a half-cut Black Goth girl at a bar who just started trauma dumping her no-daddy issues into my lap.ACKS is absolutely the superior system mechanically mind you, but look be square in the eye and say 'Highlander: Total War the RPG doesn't sound like a fun concept' if you can bring yourself to lie to us both like that.
>>96767296Ah, no, Fishy, you don't seem to be picking up what I'm putting down. Let me lay it out for you: Nobody here buys your revisionism. You can't even meaningfully confuse newbies. Hell, most of us don't even get angry about your spam, just kinda tired. As such, all that's left is to judge your performance AS performance: on its originality and creativity. What I'm telling you is that these are sorely deficient.
I'm looking for some old school BLACK-AND-WHITE illustrations of men-at-arms. Something that would fit the aesthetics of the three AD&D core books, including e.g. Gillespie's stuff.
>>96767325Oh don't get me wrong, Anon, in terms of setting concept I have no trouble understanding it, although for me personally the divine bloodline stuff conflicts with how I'd want a low fantasy medieval setting to work. That's just me though, mind you, I totally understand how those mechanics tie into the self-conception of the medieval nobility and can create a more psychologically authentic-feeling setting that way.It's just the mechanical integration aspect I was wondering about.
>>96767210I've never understood why you think you can pretend that this general is different. You keep trying every possible shady fucking "tactic" to get your way, and it's insane.Appeal to authority? You suck Gygax's dick like you're poisoned and you think the antidote's in it.Appeal to tradition? You are quick to describe the "ONE TRVE WAY TO PLAY", but only by ignoring all the evidence that contradicts you.Argumentum ad Populum? Even without most people actually agreeing with you, you put so much energy into crying that everyone agrees with you, and everyone who disagrees with you is one person. Argumentum ad Tantrum? You have a meltdown persistently whenever anyone hits one of your triggers. This general is like all the other generals on 4chan. It's tied to a topic, not to the cultish concept only held by a tiny clique, especially when that tiny clique is completely disassociated with reality and the outside world. You keep doing everything in your power to try and turn this general into your personal echo chamber, and then trying to indoctrinate any unsuspecting newcomers into your cult, and all from the stance of pure arrogance built on a foundation of nothing but fallacies.
>>96767344Your lies don't even hold up against checking wikipedia.
>>96767393That's what I'm curious about as well.I'll admit I don't like the way they've done bloodline as a stat in and of itself. But I could see it working potentially.https://arbrethil.substack.com/p/acks-birthrightHave a copy.
>>96766282>I'm in my 50s. I've started playing around 1981You post like you are 5 and never played in your life.
>>96766298>>967663932e is more on topic than shitposts from brain damaged faggots
>Tourist from earlier>>96767404I'm amazed at how much passion is in your vitriol about classification of old TTRPGs.Why do you like 2e so much? Can you tell me about it?
>>96767518He's the worst kind of manchild, almost perfectly personified. It's a shame that the best odds of getting rid of him are really just waiting for him to die.
>>96767545Why are you pretending to fall for the boogeyman lie? I don't think anyone could actually be that stupid, so why the act?
>>96766616You not reading posts would partly explain why your posts are shit. The other reason being retardation.
>/todd2/ drops off the board>He's immediately in here again with his bullshitFishfag, you had your own thread, no one wanted to be there because it meant being around you.You even titled it 'No ACKS' to try and bait people in and everyone left you alone in your sadsack corner.Fuck off back to it. It's where you rightfully belong.Here, I even made the next one for you>>96767555Just as a kindness.
>>96767557I'm not taking any sides because I don't know jack shit. I'm genuinely curious.
>>96767404>Argumentum ad Tantrum? You have a meltdown persistently whenever anyone hits one of your triggers.LMAO, the irony
>>96767210Only you know why you post here when all you do is shit up threads about a game you are not smart enough to play.
>>96767471Thanks, Anon! I'll have a look later when I have time to sit down with it properly.
>>96767574>>96767555>That image>That thread edition>That question>TripsPerfection
>>96767210God, this post really got to him for some reason, huh. *Four* assmangled samefag replies to such a short, simple post! I wonder if we can identify the active substance in this and distill it to drive the fishfag to new heights of demented frenzy.
>>96767368Try this thread. >>96741189 They may be able to help you.
>>96767579This general, and by extension this board, is besieged by a small group of trolls. They love acks, hate 2e, and say anyone that dislikes acks or likes 2e is all one person. Even if you like both acks and 2e or hate both, you will be called their boogeyman.They used to get banned for throwing tantrums, but they would just immediately ban evade, and then post how the janitor/mods that banned them were also the boogeyman. If you're genuinely curious, don't bother pretending that you actually listened to a word the trolls have told you, because it puts severe doubts on you yourself. 2e is not too far away from 1e. It's roughly 99% identical. The trolls' major grievance over it is that it was made after Gygax was kicked out of TSR.
>>96767579Now that he's given you a reply, notice that he doesn't actually respond to your question but instead gave a cut and paste answer that's completely irrelevant to what you said.He's our resident shithead who won't fuck off out the thread, claims to love 2e, hates ACKS, uses the same words over and over.We call him Fishfag.He's here for the express purpose of shitting things up and making the threads worst for everyone else.There's really not much else to say about the situation except the Jannies won't ban him for some reason but will ban/delete anyone proving him wrong or arguing with him. So he uses that to bait people and get them banned.Because he's a cunt.
>>96767696>desperate damage controlYou're only adding evidence against yourself.
>>96767709Your thread is waiting for you >>96767555GYG
>>96767696>doesn't actually respond to your questionYou mean answered it pretty succinctly? Why do you do this? Just outright try to lie to people even when the truth is centimeters away?I also personally don't give a fuck about ACKS, so where does that put me on your boogeyman spectrum?
>>96767728>boogeyman spectrumYou're on a spectrum alright.And no, you didn't answer what he asked. You went 'There's trolls who hate 2e'He asked what you, YOU, Fuckhead reading this right now with your own two Fuckeyeballs, like about 2e.Instead of doing that, the simplest thing in the world if you actually enjoyed the system, you dove for 'Time to try and poison the well by talking about trolls'You don't like 2e, you just hate that the rest of us have a thread we enjoy and will do anything you can to shit it up.Because, again,You're a cunt.
>>96767669Anyways, the above is fishfag (the troll referenced in the OP of >>96767555; yes, he's hated in both NSRG and OSRG), also known as 2efag.He's been plaguing this general for roughly three years, eternally attempting to rewrite the history of the OSR to say that actually the true sekret old-school players always loved 2e and that this general was a long-time lover of 2e rather than pic attached. Alternately, you could read this old post for an outside summation:https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2022/10/blog-osr-module-o5-2e-is-still-not-old.html2efag relentlessly samefags to try and make it look like he has an army of backers with the same bizarro idiosyncratic view of things as him, but is always identifiable because no one on the planet does and his writing style is very identifiable besides (either short autistic screeching, or ponderous rambling posts about alt-history when the meds kick in). Amusingly, he later became triggered by some ACKS campaign log regarding fishing and added that to his list of bugbears: hence the dual names.The general suggestion of this thread is to report his posts for trolling or off-topic posting, which they are, and to stay on topic by avoiding discussion of non-old-school games such as 2e (following the OP we've had since 2019). You can't reason with him because he's legit 100% insane.
>>96767752Whoa, calm down there, you total retard.If you like 1e, and 2e is 99% identical, comes to reason there's good odds you'll like most of 2e. You'd really need to be one of those unloved and unlovable disgusting stereotypical grognards who hates any and all changes and is spending his last few (hopefully) years on earth making mountains out of molehills and otherwise being a total retarded cunt. 2e brought some good QoL changes. One of the biggest improvements is that the rules as a whole are much better written and formatted, so using the 2e rule books is considerably easier. As for the specific rule changes, I can understand arguments for and against any particular one, largely as a matter of personal taste.Unlike you, I'm not dying on the hill of 1e or 2e being objectively superior. I'm just tired of you being such a stupid bitch troll about it and shitting on anyone who tries to discuss 2e here.
>>96767770>He's been plaguing this general for roughly three yearsWasn't it demonstrated that he's been here significantly longer than that?
>>96767882I think the estimate was that long. When an anon went digging for posts with his recognizable quirks I think that's as far back as it went; I might be misremembering.
>>96767882The thing about boogeymen is that you can make them whatever you want.
>>96767882Three years is just coincidentally when ACKS was banned from reddit, and weirdly enough when a small group arrived here to try and reformat the /osrg/ into their personal pro-ACKS/anti-2e hugbox.https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/2e%20off%20topic/type/op/It's almost like the ACKS discord had to find a new place to try and recruit people, and came here with the identical trolling/brigading tactics that got them banned from reddit.But, that's unlikely, right? The people who got banned from reddit just decided to stay holed up in their discord like good little boys.
>>96768011>That pivotYou're not even a tenth as clever as you think you are.
>touristWhat the hell is ACKS?
>>96768011This is specifically the sort of >use your own garbage as lies propaganda we've come to expect from your ilk. Its when a bunch of tourists showed up here to try and push antiACKS and 'reform' the chuds of /osrg/. Fuck off.
>>96767770>https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2022/10/blog-osr-module-o5-2e-is-still-not-old.htmlDamn, great post. Can't beat Melan as a designer, and nobody can deny that he's an OG of the OSR, too. Can't wish for a clearer explanation of why 2e isn't OSR (and this. does not belong ITT) than that.
>>96768040Adventurer Conqueror King System.It's a system that aims to basically 'complete' the OSR concept by expanding on the bits of the rules where things originally got a bit vibes-based/just wing it-y.In play it's heavily simulationist and has a very holistic view of what players can get up to, from trade to research to rulership, mass combat, ect ect.Plenty of people here like it but a few despise it, mostly because they think the author is a no good fuckin' chud and it was banned off reddit don't you know.Someone posted a campaign using it recently actually, check the archive for Aztec and you'll find it.
>>96768040ACKS is a specific clone of D&D which the crazy guy hates for some reason. I'd call it middling, there's nothing offensive about it but its USP (an extremely strong but very spreadsheety economic model) also isn't super compelling for the kind of games I like to run. It has its fans like anything which offers a unique angle; the guys who like it really swear by it for campaign play. As for why the nut hates it, anybody's guess really since he's clinically insane.
>>96768040OK retroclone if you want a lot of granular rules focused on domain mgmt. Makes leftpol mad due to company's previous associations with Milo lastnameiforgetbutitwaasgreekish of breif celeberty for being a homofag and altright, otherwise unremarkable. Got banned from parts of reddit. Likely has parts of the game you can salvage as desired but didn't seem like anything I'd pay for. 2nd ed seems to get into the standard 2nd ed problems of adding too many homebrew off base things that get further away from god's light.
>>96768110>Fucking a femboy to make him go beep beepIronically the only thing ACKS doesn't have a rule for, go figure.
>>96768011I don't really get the whole ACKS guys hating 2e though. Not rationally.I get they hate it because the BROSR and ACKS groups have a lot of crossover because they're both politically right-alligned, but ACKS is way less "trad" then 2e is. The way they've decided to try and divide things along political lines is so weird.ACKS has feats, for pete's sake. It's got 3rd edition style splatbooks. It doesn't make sense for trad chuds to hate post-2e editions but love ACKS, aside from ACKS fans being politcal chuds.
>>96768129As one of the people who has been accused of being a shill for ACKS in the past? I've never once posted for or against 2e.In fact I rather like both Darksun and Birthright personally, see higher up in the thread.
>>96768129It doesn't make sense to me either, but that's the line they drew.The only reason we even know the pro-ACKS and anti-2e trolling both come from the same guys is because they were saying everyone that was anti-ACKs or pro-2e were their boogeyman.
>>96768129>I don't really get the whole ACKS guys hating 2e though.That's because its bullshit this anon >>96768180is the actual troll trying to shift the general.
>>96768180Hi again, 2efag.
>He's still ignoring his own personal /NuSR/ threadLel
>>96768040You're going to have to take these posts->>96768070>>96768074>>96768110with a heavy dosage of salt.ACKS is a fairly mediocre B/X clone, with a heavy emphasis on fairly long-winded rules and procedures. It's generally unremarkable and was rarely discussed on this board despite being published over a decade ago, up until it got banned from Reddit during the ACKS2 kickstarter three years ago.
>>96768282>all posts say its only ok and have various information >you'll have to take these with grains of salt while I repeat what they said with my bias instead It was regularly discussed and known well before the kickstarter you disingenuous fuck.
>>96767579>>96767770>>96768040>>96768282 is 2efag in his fishfag persona.As was mentioned, he's pretty easy to spot when you understand his tells. You can ignore anything he says because it's hopelessly warped around his schizo obsessions.
>>96767717>>96768250Anon, I don't want to police your ass, but you're getting it wrong this time. Unlike /todd/, that was a retarded attempt to steal users from this general and empty it lol, this time the /nsrg/ thread was NOT created by 2etard/fishfag, it was created by a nice and considerate Anon who explicitly put in the general's definition:>>What is this thread NOT for?>meta discussions or drama of the games and its creators aka shadowboxing with twitter, reddit and the OSRG (frens with osrbros)In fact, 2etard/fishfag trolled that thread heavily, annoying people who just wanted to talk /nsrg/ there.You (assuming it's indeed you) creating a new version of /nsrg/, making it about fishfag, and removing the "frens with osrbros" part is taking it out unfairly on /nsrg/ and making this place more toxic. Let's please keep the peace with /nsrg/. We have no reason to fight against them, and fishfag/2efag is an enemy of both threads, the whole board, and humanity in general.
>>96768396>removing the "frens with osrbros" partLook again, he did not
>>96768296That "various information" reads as >>96768070Hardcore, unapologetic shilling.>>96768074Semi-apologetic shilling.>>96768110...actually, no idea what this post is trying to be.>It was regularly discussedThe archive says otherwise. Most posts regarding it cannot be called discussion, at most a brief mention here or there to present that the game even exists. It's no surprise that people here had never even heard of the game. The vast majority of any discussion of the game has occurred in the last three years, coinciding with that reddit ban.
>>96768403Apologies for that mistake.
>>96768282>banned from RedditWhy? Were they racist on twitter?
>>96768396They still have the "frens with osrbros" note, but otherwise yeah, they have legit separate interests of their own and deserve a chance to thrive without one of /tg's worst trolls bothering them. I'd like /nsrg to succeed.
>>96768396>>96768415Don't worry anon, I know you and most of /nusr/ are homies.But both our threads are stuck with a homo.And that homo gotta gomo.Once he has you and yours will be welcome with the occasional gentle meme comment about your favourite system same as everyone else.
>>96768410>I lack reading comprehension We know. Good you do too.
>>96768423They got caught brigading during the ACKS2 kickstarter.Lots of evidence like sockpuppet accounts, thread/vote manipulation, and even the mods just outright saying "We banned this game because of brigading".
>>96768423Claims of brigading by a group of Prog brigaders backed by a Janny.Think of it as a CIA coup, only somehow infinitely more gay in its ops.Watch him claim now that the word of Jannies on Reddit is beyond reproach and they're the ultimate authority on all things.
>>96768423People were posting blatant lies about Macris as a smear campaign and he threatened to sue the mods for libel because they were leaving the accusations up and deleting anyone who contested them for "brigading." So the mods just banned all discussion of ACKS, because you can't let the evil chuds win I guess?
>>96768396>In fact, 2etard/fishfag trolled that thread heavily, annoying people who just wanted to talk /nsrg/ there.Jesus fucking tapdancing christ, what a load of bullshit. The threads still exist in the archive. Everyone can see the ACKShills being the problem, with people in the thread pleading with them to shut the fuck up about ACKS. Even in the latest thread, when they saw a "no acks" sign, they immediately started to troll that thread by having a yes-indeed off-topic discussion about it.
>>96768459That was rpg.net rather than reddit.Oh and the people posting were mods, who were posting on their official mod accounts about how he drew a cock on the moon with his nazi space laser or some shit.Fuck if I know what exactly they said, who listens to Jannies on the internet?
>>96768452Nah, there's plenty of evidence, beyond what the Reddit Jannies said. Do you want to double down before I post some of it? Kinda want to see you dig your hole a bit more first.
>>96768466>The threads still exist in the archive. Everyone can see the ACKShills being the problem, with people in the thread pleading with them to shut the fuck up about ACKS. Even in the latest thread, when they saw a "no acks" sign, they immediately started to troll that thread by having a yes-indeed off-topic discussion about it.Well then you won't mind fucking off to the new thread, someone even made it for you >>96767555Will you?
>>96768492>And now we watch as Fishfag gets out his tinfoil hat and corkboard to try and convince people that no, really, they're gangstalking the intertubesAll this knowledge about reddit and yet he still won't fuck off back there
>>96768410>Hardcore, unapologetic shilling.And thus we confirm Fishfags standard for shilling.That being an accurate description with a 'make up your own opinion' at the end.Working backward from this we can confirm what we already knew, that being any post which isn't telling people to believe what he believes and stating that his opinion is objective fact is, in fact, shilling in his eyes.What can you even do about such a person really?
>>96768503This topic has come up on this board quite a bit, usually with you shills going into denial mode, because of course it looks bad for you to shill for a system and for there to be people who were caught shilling for the same system. Let's start with something really simple and everyone can easily understand with a quick glance.Here's an example of a sockpuppet acount. https://www.reddit.com/user/TheYuanti/comments/The only posts this individual ever made were 20 posts recommending and promoting ACKS.That's the starting line. We can go into further examples, with one anon compiling a list of similar deleted accounts, but there's also examples of vote manipulation, discussion from redditors regarding their experience with the astroturfing with them also providing further examples, but let's just start with you explaining that first account as being anything other than a sockpuppet account so we can see what you look like when you lie.
>>96768626>That's the starting line. We can go into further examples, with one anon compiling a list of similar deleted accounts, but there's also examples of vote manipulation, discussion from redditors regarding their experience with the astroturfing with them also providing further examples, but let's just start with you explaining that first account as being anything other than a sockpuppet account so we can see what you look like when you lie.No-no, go ahead faggot, post everything you've got. Go on, you want to dripfeed so you can hear the other side laugh at you standing there with your pants around your ankles then go buy a belt.And I notice you're still not fucking off to the NuSR thread.
>>96768543You seem to think that unless we see the check you got, we can't call you out for shilling.You're obviously not going to show us any checks either way, so it doesn't really make sense to split any hairs over whether you're advertising that game for fifty bucks or for free but you want to get good boy points from your discord buddies.
>>96768637Starting from the top, mate.What are your lies abouthttps://www.reddit.com/user/TheYuanti/comments/No sense going any further if that one trips you up.
>>96768641Hey remember that time you called the guy who did the ACKStec campaign a shill and claimed they were handing out fake screenshots of people running games only for him to post his entire campaign and leave you slightly more debased than your average Dubai portapotty.The rest of us do.Lel.
>>96768652A guy signs up, posts about his ACKS campaign (among other things) and his interest in the system, and he gets banned. Those posts don't seem fake to me at all, and it really weakens your argument.
>>96768686The fact he's trying to pull this shit is proof he's not acting in good faith. You can't convince him he's wrong.The only thing to do is mock him and treat him with the respect he deserves, that being none.
>>96768654Whoo, that's a big heap of lies to cut through.To start, not that anon, an anon that likely doesn't even actually truly exist, at least not in the way you imagine, because your story is likely 95% bullshit, like everything else that comes out of you.Secondly, I do remember someone else calling the campaign a fake, which is something I wouldn't do, because I don't really care about the veracity of that campaign at all, as, like most people, I have no intention of actually reading it. It being real or not doesn't really matter either way, because the only thing I think is even remotely interesting about it is that it shows that there's at least one person with a lot of skin in this shilling game, since writing up 200 pages is a pretty big timesink for something next to no one is ever going to read. That other anon was dropping claims of how the campaign seemed fake, but I think that part of the discussion largely dwindled, because I think most people on either side just genuinely don't give a fuck either way.Thirdly, in regards to your story in your post, I have no idea if something even close to resembling that ever actually happened, but a person arguing that screenshots were faked is not going to be trumped by posting a campaign that likewise can't be verified, no matter how long it is, so I doubt you actually convinced anyone, let alone the audience who was apparently waiting for your cue of "and everybody clapped." In any case, I'll reiterate that I personally don't care about what you use to shill, because the campaign/screenshots don't need to be fake in order to be used in shilling. I think that's something I think you can appreciate fully.I think the guy(s?) who bother to question the veracity of the material you use to shill are largely just attacking the way your "real" games sound fake, because the people who like ACKS tend to be retarded and autistic robots who don't act like real people who understand what "fun" actually is.
>>96768686And, anyone can go in, look at the posts that guy made, see how much of a transparent sockpuppet shill that account was, and see the level of denial you're willing to go through.Thanks a bunch for doubling down.>>96768726Hey! Nice attempt at immediate damage control. Maybe people now won't check and see how bad of a sockpuppet account it was. The 40k picture with a D&D name was a nice bit of "hello fellow kids", I must say.
>I like thing motivated troll doesn't like >must be fake Its this sort of mentality that fucks up our ability to have actual discourse. You've got to accept other people will in fact like other things than you. This isn't the same thing as allowing all discussion in one general. You can have different generals to discuss different enough things. 2nd ed and nusr games are different enough they should have their own general. Its okay people like those things, their discussion doesn't suit this general. That's it. That's all you have to realize to have a better day discussing the things you like with likeminded anons and not fucking up other people's discussions.
>>96768919Retard, I just said I don't care if it's fake or not, and you are by far and away more troll than likely anyone on this board will ever be.
>Gets reminded of his past behaviour>Immediately posts a blue-in-the-face manifesto of seething and copingLel
>gets btfo so hard he just starts using baby's-first-trolling-antics to try and save faceNo lol from me.
>>96768919>nusr games are different enough they should have their own generalthen why is ACKS sometimes discussed here?
>>96768998Hypocrisy.
>>96768998Because OSRG predates NuSR and NuSR is already dying after less than a month.
>>96768998Its more compatible than most nusr material that tends to get even further away although the various skill and feat equivalent seem less interesting to me, ymmv. ime this make it about as osr as the without number series. So enough, but borderline.
>>96768011huhthat is kinda weird
>>96769083Yeah, wow, really weird, completely true and not made up bullshit at all. Dislike of 2e just came out of nowhere. Vast hive-mind conspiracy, Protocols of the Elders of Spreadsheet Commodity Tracking behind it for sure.
>>96769083It would be if it were true;https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/2e%20off%20topic/end/2023-11-30/ - All mentions of 2e needing to fuck off before the banhttps://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/ACKS/end/2023-11-30/ - All mentions of ACKS before the banIt's a wilful attempt at deception. Same as his 'Oh, here's a profile talking about ACKS and only ACKS on reddit'Then you click the link and well would you look at that, they're also talking about:>Tome of Adventure Design>Worlds Without Number>Perilous WildsAnd, funnily enough:>ADnD has assassination tables, disease tables, prostitute tables. Those are all things that come up in play (depending on the group) and came into play during Gary’s games. ADnD also has a smidge more “superhero” play at the upper levels because of Wish, teleport, and other spells.Me oh my, they even recommend AD&D, our Fishfaggots favourite game.I suppose this means that it's secretly his reddit profile and we can start conspiracy boarding about how he's been planning this for years, ect.
>>96769115That screenshot is not saying what you think it's saying.Also, there's always been mixed feelings about 2e, just like there's been mixed feelings about every game.But the brigade-style efforts to treat 2e as offtopic in this general are a very recent affair.
>>96769147>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/2e%20off%20topic/end/2023-11-30/ - All mentions of 2e needing to fuck off before the ban>It's a wilful attempt at deceptionMan, that's some irony.That link shows that the overwhelming vast majority of the "2e is offtopic" shitposts occured in the last three years, and was only a tiny smattering of posts before that, with the majority of those posts in that collection being people just generally discussing 2e while including the phrase "offtopic" or talking about 2e in completely different systems like Warhammer or Pathfinder.Absolutely disgusting. >https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/ACKS/end/2023-11-30/ All mentions of ACKS before the banFunny how you decided to start from the direction while the ACKS2 kickstarter was still ongoing and the discord was brigading.In the reverse direction, of oldest first, you'll see that most of the ACKS mentions were literally just mentions, rarely actually discussed.>Then you click the link and well would you look at that, they're also talking about:As inferior to ACKS and you should totally play ACKS instead. God, you're so fucking dishonest.
>>96769147>And, funnily enough:>>ADnD has assassination tables, disease tables, prostitute tables. Those are all things that come up in play (depending on the group) and came into play during Gary’s games. ADnD also has a smidge more “superhero” play at the upper levels because of Wish, teleport, and other spells.>Me oh my, they even recommend AD&D, our Fishfaggots favourite game.>I suppose this means that it's secretly his reddit profile and we can start conspiracy boarding about how he's been planning this for years, ect.How about we show the entire post?
>>96767344>Hell, most of us don't even get angry about your spam, just kinda tired.Why engage with him at all, then? Just let him shit into the void.
>>96769284Fuuuuck that's some thick-ass shilling.He's pounding.
>>96768998Because ACKS is not a NuSR game, it's literally just a Cyclopedification of B/X. As for why it's discussed in the NuSR general, the NuSR bros seem to take a more expansive view of what's on topic there, which is their prerogative. So it can be on topic in both threads.
>>96769389Check out his "recommendation" for WWN.
>>96769363That's literally the last post I gave him. All this tiresome slapfighting with the fishfag is other anons. I agree that engaging with his repetitious horseshit is a waste of time; that's why I'm saying the least he could do is come up with something novel.
>>96769248>Funny how you decided to start from the direction while the ACKS2 kickstarter was still ongoing and the discord was brigading.You heard it here first everyone. I, leader of the ACKSluminati, can now add 'Runs 4plebs and has control over the default search settings' to my list of achivements.Frankly I'm shocked to learn there's anyone else on this site since apparently I'm every single other poster this retard talks to, everyone who has mentioned ACKS over the past 15 years, possibly Marcis himself and so on.Shit, I'm a busy guy.>As inferior to ACKSAll three are recommended for use in parallel with ACKS you lackwit, unless this shill was quadruple dipping then you've got nothing.>Comparing two games is shilling and giving a preference is haram if it's a preference I disagree with.>In response to someone else asking, and I quote:>Could you elaborate a bit more on the tools that make this possible? From my reading online ACKS has a lot of economically focused, spread sheet level domain management. Is that what you were talking about or are there other tools that help with running long campaigns?I guess he was also the other guy, asking himself about the system am I right?Watch him toddle off to go and check then come back and not acknowledge it because the person he was talking to is a massive Blades in the Dark fanboy rather than ever mentioning ACKS againTerminal case right here.There is more worms than brain.
>>96769392The ACKS fags dragged it into the /nusr/ because, according to themselves, /nusr/ was their enemy, something they talked about quite a bit even in this general. They seem to be actually aware that their very own presence is poison and they wanted that general to die.
>>96769443Funny because there's one up right now and you belong there, yet you're here, whining about ACKS as usual.>>96769429Know what you're right, I'll stop giving him what he wants, as much of an irritating genital herp as he is.
Why is it every time I poke my head into this thread, its nothing but arguing about 2E? There was a time when /osrg/ was the last bastion of comfy and creative that made /tg/ worth coming to.
>>96769456You don't belong on this website.Being stuck with the retards even Reddit doesn't want is 4chan's curse.
>>96769413Post more.
>>96769443But the ACKSfags are welcome here, they belong here! In fact, *even if* they got banned off the OSR sub for wanting to discuss the game and just migrated, they're welcome here. Maybe especially then, this entire website should be a refuge from plebbit and its shitass moderation, just as with rpg.net. ACKS is on topic here, and they should feel free to talk about their system in peace without fishniggers trying to stop them. You on the other hand should probably stay on the subreddit since you clearly approve of their moderation practices, so why don't you fuck off there and stay there?
>>96769467>Why is it every time I poke my head into this thread, its nothing but arguing about 2E? Because a mentally ill guy decided his mission in life would be to ruin the comfiness by trying to slide the thread into accepting 2e as on-topic even though it never has been. And for some reason the mods don't want to do anything about him.
>>96769639It was really nice here when he left for the new thread for a while. Quiet and cozy again. Wish he'd leave for good.
>>96769658Yeah, I remember. It was nice. We had some extremely comfy discussions about LBB minutia, which as an OD&Dfag is my favorite thing.
>>96769669How do Elves work, anyway? On adventures where the Elf is a Fighting Man, do they only level up in Fighting Man, or can they assign XP to Magic-User? Do they level up as both at the same time? It's very confusing.
>>96769630ACKSfags would be welcome if they knew how to act like humans and not brigading shitbags.Most people don't care one way or the other about ACKS: the game. It's the ACKSfags that are always the issue.
>>96769658If you want to avoid your imaginary boogeyman and have a quiet place all to yourself, why not stay in your discord?Oh, probably because even you eventually get tired of your yes-indeeding.
>tourist from earlierIt was really funny to come to a general about something I was genuinely curious about, enjoy what seemed to be a respectful conversation at >>96765832and then see this>>96766042and watch it slowly escalate. Is every general like this?I had no idea this general has been in a year long civil war over something one in hundred thousand people even ever heard of and as an outsider all I can say is it'sa)hilariousb)impossible to tell who is right and who is the schizo
>>96769746Such is the nature of niche communities. Still, form your own opinion if you care to.When things are peaceful here, it's a nice place to be.
>>96769746>b)Yeah for an outsider who hasn't been here for ages it's hard to know who's lying. Its' why I don't fault the mods for leaving the fishfag's posts up sometimes. But we have "first decade" up there in the OP to clarify that the focus of the general ends just before Dragonlance is published in '84, not that this deters him
>>96769687My take is that the character can use all acquired abilities regardless, and you simply choose in advance which class you'll be earning experience for during that session (so, no, you can't assign XP to the other class). I agree that it's very confusingly written, but this seems like the procedure that has backing from the original games. (Specifically, Arneson discusses leveling up separately in separate classes, in FFC IIRC, and had such characters in his game; it seems that Gygax either used AD&D-style multiclassing from the earliest days of the Greyhawk game or simply didn't permit it at all.)>>96769702>ACKSfags would be welcome if they knew how to act like humansRight! Which they do. So it's fine!
>>96769719>boogeyman
>>96769763>My take is that the character can use all acquired abilities regardless, and you simply choose in advance which class you'll be earning experience for during that sessionSo would an Elf with 4 levels in Fighting-Man and 4 levels in Magic-User have a) 4 HD (FM only)b) 2+1 HD (MU only)c) 6+1 HD (Lv. 4 FM + Lv 4 MU)d) 8+2 HD (Lv. 8 FM)e) 5 HD (Lv. 8 MU)
>>96769746That "seemingly respectful" conversation is from a guy who imagines he far more clever then he is, and thinks he can trick you.Some of the context you're missing comes from the last threadhttps://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/96704041#bottomwhich was finishing off with that troll beginning yet again his "everything post 2e isn't OSR/is garbage" rant. >Is every general like this?This general is semi-unique, thanks to its clique that rejects the commonly understood definition of OSR and keeps trying to re-define it to a much more narrow and purely personal definition. So, this problem keeps happening where a new person arrives, imagines the OSR general is about discussing OSR games, only to get attacked by a retarded clique, who then begins a thousand post tantrum.
>>96769825>is every general like thisSorry I meant to ask is every thread of this general like this
>>96769746>impossible to tell who is right and who is the schizoSince you're brand new this is very understandable, but if you were to read through the thread attentively (which I don't recommend as a use of your time), you'd notice that there's one guy who's extremely choleric and sweary and likes to use specific words like "boogeyman" over and over, and on inspection he's the entirety of one "side" of the argument.As for the civil war though as funny as I'm sure it is from the outside, to my mind it's very unfortunate that other anons reply in earnest to this guy. It's a waste of time, since he's legit just mentally ill.
>>96769835It comes and goes.The last thread is a good example. It's become a slow general, with the last one being made a week ago and still being on this board, but there's still instances where they tried to bait up some drama about games being offtopic, except no one was really biting except towards the end after it hit autosage.
>>96769839>but if you were to read through the thread attentively (which I don't recommend as a use of your time), you'd notice that there's one guy who's extremely choleric and swearyI actually did that and my head hurts and there does seem to be one guy who is very aggressive, but it could be he's the last resistance to an ancient conspiracy of historic revisionism from my POV. Crazier things have happened on the internet. Why IS 2e not considered OSR anyway?
>>96769914>https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2022/10/blog-osr-module-o5-2e-is-still-not-old.htmlWas posted earlier, and is a good dissertation on its place relative to the original editions, by an notable OSR person who grew up with 2e and then moved to 1e.
>>96769839You keep trying to say everyone who disagrees with you is a single person, even when it's obvious you're arguing with more than one person.From the perspective of someone you've accused of being that one person, while you also accuse someone else and giving me 100% certainty that you're wrong (and a high belief that it's much more than one other person), it really gives me a window into how much of a shameless liar you are and how much effort you put into derailing threads into being about your brain dead drama whenever anyone disagrees with you.
>>96769914It is OSR.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_School_RenaissanceThe amount of mental gymnastics neccesary to make it not OSR are basically insanity.
>tourist>>96769942>https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2022/10/blog-osr-module-o5-2e-is-still-not-old.html>>96769962>>96769977From what I gathered, 2e is Metallica's Black Album of D&D.
>>96769914>Why IS 2e not considered OSR anyway?Oh and it's off topic here specifically because this thread is focused on the first decade of D&D (and modern clones thereof), which ran from 1974 to 1983, as outlined in the OP. Dragonlance came out in '84 and is the cutoff, 2e came out later.
>>96769914>Why IS 2e not considered OSR anyway?nta but I'll try to explain. The long and short of it is that 2e brought about a change in design concepts and fundamentals. A new group of designers came in who thought that the old games had been primitive and crude and saw the opportunity to focus less on sandbox play and more on grand, 'Be the hero of your own epic fantasy tale' adventures.These new design principles formed what's known as the 'Hickman manifesto' and became a sort of foundation for D&D going forward, particularly with the successes they had with series such as Dragonlance.Part of it is that the writers were very Mormon and part of it is that they were very 'Fantasy author' with strong opinions on how games should follow a narrative structure rather than players choosing their own destiny. Think of them as the Critical role of their era as it were, (though not even Critical Role would contain a character as egregious as Raistlin Majere).Basically 2e onwards is designed with an entirely different conception of what a game should be to OSR. All they share for the most part is a name, similar to how say, 3.5e and 4e are completely different games mechanically.If I were to boil it down, I'd say that the difference is:>In OSR what your characters are doing is the story and the world is intended to be real around them>In later editions the story is happening, your characters just happen to be the ones involved in it and the world exists to facilitate this or be background for why shit is happening
>>96769658I'm not this thread's 2efag, I firmly believe that 2E is classic D&D and a good game in its own right, but it is not OSR. It doesn't support the gameplay loop that makes a game OSR-adjacent let alone OSR. But I was the one trying to maintain a /2eg/, and every thread would eventually devolve into somebody coming in and spamming it into the /osrg/ 2E fight. There is somebody who is fighting on both sides just to ruin any discussion whatsoever.
>>96769804IMO it must be c) 6+1 HD. Otherwise the Fighting-Man levels are basically worthless since the Warlock has 5 HD whereas the Hero has 4, and both also have Hero Fighting Capability. If the HD at least weren't cumulative, there would be ultimately no point in allowing the Elf those Fighting-Man levels at all. The 83 000 XP to reach level 4/8 also place the max-level Elf midway between Champion and Superhero level for the Fighting Man, at which point the Elf has 9 HD as compared to the Champion's 7+1 and the Superhero's 8+2. Given that the single-class Fighter has a Fighting Capability in the Superhero tier at this point, the extra hit die and a half (until the human PC can level fully past the Elf) seems even more okay.Also, I don't know why the values would be cumulative on your better class, which is why I didn't even mention those alternatives until right now.
>>96770159>There is somebody who is fighting on both sides just to ruin any discussion whatsoever.Yes. I'm pretty sure the resident schizo doesn't want to slide the topic of this thread because he actually likes 2e (notice how he can never explain why he likes 2e or why it's important for it to be here when asked, for example). Instead he probably just originally thought it would be amusing to manipulate the thread topic and then went insane with rage when it turned out he couldn't, and so now he just tries to destroy any discussion of the game outside the general in an effort to try to force it in here out of pure salt. Deranged of course, but it's the simplest way to explain his behavior that I can think of.
>>96770159Yeah, that sucks. Our schizo claims to love 2e, but clearly doesn't play or even know the rules. Sorry that happened to your thread. I kinda like 2e in a black sheep of the family sorta way. I suppose he figured your 2e thread was an attack on him to keep him out of /osrg/ so he had to kill it.
>>96769639>Because a mentally ill guy decided his mission in life would be to ruin the comfiness by trying to slide the threadThe irony of reply.
>>96770159>It doesn't support the gameplay loop that makes a game OSR-adjacent let alone OSR.Yes, it does. That was even admitted in >>96769942 this blog post, within his own incredibly narrow definition of what entails an OSR game, thanks in part to the changes in 2e being optional with variants provided for anyone who wanted some but not all the changes.It feels like the ultimate evolution of pure, unrestrained grognardism left to grow wild. The OSR began as a hope to revitalize pre-3e editions, and unfortunately also naturally gathered up some anti-3e sentiment in the bargain. And, with Pre-3e grognardism that rejects change of course comes some people with Pre-2e grognardism who reject even more change. If OD&D had been the game with the larger player count, I'd bet we'd also be seeing Pre-1e grognardism at this point. I guess we should be thankful most of those guys are dead.
>>96770228>(notice how he can never explain why he likes 2e or why it's important for it to be here when asked, for example). It's weird that you didn't notice >>96767806
>>96770245Don't use me and Melan in your retard crusade, fag
>>96770228>I'm pretty sure the resident schizo doesn't want to slide the topic of this thread because he actually likes 2e (notice how he can never explain why he likes 2e or why it's important for it to be here when asked, for example).To add to this:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96474844/#96495524Last time the topic came up he didn't even know Raistlin was a PC.He doesn't know shit about 2e. Fuck, I know more 2e through pure cultural osmosis than he, supposed defender of the faith, does.He's not an honest actor, he's a cocksucker and it's just a shame we're stick with him since no amount of him acting the faggot seems to get the Janny off their ass to deal with him.
>>96770276>Last time the topic came up he didn't even know Raistlin was a PC.It looks like you're misconstruing the argument pretty hard, almost to the point of blatant dishonesty.Or maybe you just didn't see this post? https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96474844/#q96495743
>tourist from todayFrom my understanding 2e is an extension of 1e that's incompatible with the intended way of playing 1e. Despite it being technically compatible, in practice it's way off because it introduces linear storytelling as opposed to emergent storytelling, and numbers that don't smoothly work with 1:1 and gold as XP concepts. Or am I being propagandized to and this is all not true?
>>96770269You're the guy who brought him up.Hell, a good number of the posts on his own blog are disagreeing with him and his personal definition. Almost like the definition of OSR does not belong to one guy.
>>96770293Boy I wonder if you skipped over anythi->...Is Raistlin a typical character? A character people were expected to emulate? I don't even think it's possible to play a character like Raistlin is in the novels in 2e, so it's a wonder why you're using him as an example of what kind of characters people would make with that system.Oh me oh my.As for 'Raistlins game stats-'Yeah except we're not talking about stats, we're talking about background and character quirks.Again, for those in the back, if you turned up at a season of Critical Role with your character pitch being 'My character has the Sharingan and got nasty, sloppy head from the 3 diametrically opposed gods of magic while they all begged him to be a wizard because he'd be so good at it' you'd be memed to death on the spot.Especially if your stat line did nothing to back up you being potentially the greatest wizard of the age.And even more importantly we're talking about how (you) didn't even know he was a canon PC, proving you know nothing about the most famous character in the most famous setting of your favy-wavy game system ever that we totes all have to talk about 24/7 or else you're going to stamp your feet until your ankles break.It'd be like me talking about how much I love the Opera and how the entire thread needs to be about Operas, then someone mentions Pavarotti and I go>...who?Cope louder about it you subhuman.
>>96770245>Yes, it does.Only if you use the PHB only, and only if you completely rewrite the mechanical incentives for putting a character's life on the line to be an adventurer, and ignoring the proficiency system that was the birth of obsessing over builds.>The OSR began as a hope to revitalize pre-3e editionsNo, it was a term coined in response to the amount of people flocking to retro D&D forums to talk about retroclones like Labyrinth Lord, Whitehack, and OSRIC, and to cult of personality around Gary and Dave on their preferred forums.There was no establishing of the OSR, there was a realizing of what was occurring and giving a name. And what was occurring did not include 2e.The only retro D&D website to have any 2e discussion last longer than a day in the proto-osr days was adnd(.)com because Steve and TerishD were keeping it alive on life support.The only 2e fandom that existed was on usenet and mIRC.Do not incorrectly cite the ancient texts to me, I lived through their writing.
>>96770332>>...Is Raistlin a typical character? A character people were expected to emulate? I don't even think it's possible to play a character like Raistlin is in the novels in 2e, so it's a wonder why you're using him as an example of what kind of characters people would make with that system.>Oh me oh my.What's oh me or my about that? People were not building Novel Raistlin using 2e stats. Even his official stats don't come close to accurately reflect Novel Raistlin. 2e had not magically changed so dramatically from 1e that playing characters like Raistlin was supposed to be typical.>Especially if your stat line did nothing to back up you being potentially the greatest wizard of the age.That's exactly the point!Novel Raistlin is only tangentially related to 2e, so what is the point of trying to say 2e is all about letting players play characters like Raistlin? If 2e really had been all about letting players play sharingan Raistlin or whatever you're upset about, then it actually would have let them play that. Instead, the system didn't even bother to stretch far enough to allow his official stats to reflect his novel strength, because the system is not really all that different from 1e.Your whole "2e is all about playing characters like Raistlin" doesn't actually hold up. Do you understand that?
>>96770302>lurker hereYou basically got it.pro 2e: still has the mechanical AD&D legacy and thus could reasonably support the old playstyle, though worse in some aspects.contra 2e: switch to new intended playstyle, adventures are mainly linear stories.You could be partisan on both sides depending if you emphasize remaining substance or meta direction.The resident troll (or trolls) works this corner to milk his daily dopamine micro dose of attention. All there is to it. Doesn't really matter aside from being noise that drowns out actual gaming content. A tale as old as the internet.Personally I think 2e is a perfectly fine pile of salvage parts to use at leisure.
>>96770302No, that's more or less it. You've got it.
I just watched Matt Colville's video about AD&D and how D&D *used to be* a dungeon crawler almost horror game and I fell in love with the concept.I love the idea of rewarding the players for actually finding the treasure, rather than trying to kill every mod in the dungeon.I love the idea of putting the team's money together to level up one guy who's ability is gonna be more usefull in the next mission.Or to think a longue between a usefull magic item/scroll vs a level up.I've never played any of these types of games, which do you recommend to get started?I feel like AD&D might be a bit outdated, but I may be wrong on this.The ttrpgs I played are: D&D5e, Pf1e, Call of Cthulu and paranoïa
>>96770302>because it introduces linear storytelling as opposed to emergent storytellingThis is kinda nonsense.OD&D introduced linear "storytelling" with various linear adventures and just some bad DM practices. They called it railroading even back then.The "2e isn't OSR" nonsense argument is that the minor changes made to the game are disastrous and incompatible with the pure spirit of true D&D.But, think about something like just the Gold as XP business. That's largely just a sacred cow that even Gygax tried to kill all the way back in OD&D when he published a variant "Monsters kills as XP" option within a year of the original game, which was unpopular because it was even less flexible than Gold as XP and had many of the same problems. But, some people will say it's a vital component of what makes an OSR game an OSR game, even though you can generally substitute it with the XP system of your choice without actually destroying the integrity of the system, in no small part because even Gygax gave suggestions for switching it out. Hell, you could switch it out for the "get XP for monsters killed/traps beaten/puzzles solved/etc." system that developed outside of D&D, and suddenly we're talking about something way more "emergent" and open to player's deciding their own fate and what's important for themselves, as opposed to the more "linear storytelling" imposed by having to be money-obessed in order to gain power that Gold as XP imparts. Gygax even had rules about Thieves having to try and steal from their other party members or they would get role playing penalties at every missed opportunity, which effected when they could level up.Gold as XP is largely just an arbitrary abstraction, and the funniest thing is that 2e includes it as a variant option in case it's really that personally important to a DM. But, because it's a change between 1e/2e, there's people willing to argue it's specifically vital to "true D&D" and any game without it is the debil.
>>96770551We usually recommend that you start with Moldvay Basic, an edition of the basic D&D starter set which is very straightforward, well explained, and easily digestible. You can then go on to expand it with Cook Expert, or move over to AD&D 1e. In the past I would've attached a PDF of the game here but that's no bueno anymore so you'll have to go to some suitable trove to obtain the game.
>>96770553>Gold as XP is largely just an arbitrary abstraction*the central thing that drives the entire OSR playstyle
>>96770652Shadowdark has Gold as XP, while 1e does not strictly have just Gold as XP. Calling it central to the core of OSR might backfire for you.More importantly, in general play, Gold as XP is functionally interchangeable with many other systems, with the practical differences being nuanced at best. If the goal of XP in general is to encourage players to go into the dungeons and explore, XP for Tiles/Rooms explored does a very similar job. XP for killing/outwitting/pranking Monsters (something 1e includes) also does that while making random encounters a bit more rewarding than pure Gold as XP where gold is not always guaranteed. Even something dreadful like XP for "milestones" can be incredibly similar to XP for treasure, with the huge piles of gold that pushes players to the next level replaced with purely arbitrary "you reached this point, congrats" kudos. There's plenty of nuances that alter the experience in different ways between these options, but trying them out and seeing how some can improve (or worsen) the game is also a part of OSR and RPGs in general.Hauling gold back is not really a vital part of OSR, and includes a lot of unpopular aspects like backtracking and having to devote attention to tracking encumbrance considerably more. If the goal is to encourage players to complete the Town/Dungeon/Town loop more often, there's lots of other options beyond just "you're carrying too much gold", and even just retaining "You need to train outside of the dungeon in order to turn XP into levels" does a fair chunk of that.Also, the "OSR playstyle" is not a singular playstyle and never was, making your entire statement about something being central to driving it wholly ridiculous.
>>96770822>Calling it central to the core of OSR might backfire for you.Maybe in retard land, it would. But in the actual OSR blogosphere, it's been recognized for well over a decade as vitally important.
>>96770893I won't argue it's not popular, but even Gygax didn't think it was "vitally important" and I know how much you worship every word from that guy. >over a decadeGonna just try and use that as a bit of a segue. A decade?Did meself a quick google, grabbed the first link, and here's people from seven or so years ago discussing the topic.https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/osr-how-vital-is-gold-as-xp-to-the-osr-feel.850854/Notice the variety in opinion! And expressed so civilly! Ah, it's actually refreshing to see people able to discuss games without their heads crammed in their asses.Several of 'em are saying it IS important to them; and it's perfectly fine that it is. But, there's others saying it's not that important, or that the incentives it creates are important but could be replaced, and really there's a lot of interesting points of view. Might do you some good to step outside of the echo chamber you've built in your own head and actually listen to real people.
I was wondering why this general had so many replies suddenly after being virtually dead for the past week, and it's because everyone is shitflinging and flaming some retarded troll.Shame on all of you, but the retard most particularly.
>>96770822>XP for Tiles/Rooms exploredIs a terrible idea because it makes the session into a video game, where you are trying to "100%" everything.The fun comes from leaving half of the rooms abandoned because you can't carry enough out of the dungeon as it is without being chased down by monsters.
>>96771083The thing is that when he posts deranged screeds of fake """theory""" and the jannies refuse to clean them up it's hard to just let them stand uncontradicted, since that makes his retard grasp of OSR look legitimate.
>>96770164>Otherwise the Fighting-Man levels are basically worthless since the Warlock has 5 HD whereas the Hero has 4, and both also have Hero Fighting Capability.At max level, that's true, but I wonder if there's an argument to be made for flexibility at lower levels being a tradeoff for a split HD/XP pool. As in, when the Elf is being a Level 4 Fighting Man they have Level 4 Fighting Man HD, and when they're being a Level 4 Magic-User they have Level 4 Magic-User HD.That's a pretty strong reason not to play an Elf... but it's still better than the Hobbit in every way.
>>96771096...what's stopping them from going back?
>>96771129Dungeons don't just stand in stasis when the PCs aren't there; forces will mount a stronger defense, room contents will change, monsters from lower levels will come up, treasures might swap around.Only way to 100% a dungeon is to do it all in one go.
>>96771083Shame on you for pushing the same "one troll" bullshit the clique trolls depend upon.
>>96771138But PCs already have the advantage of knowing the general layout, any major fixtures that can't be rapidly changed, that sort of thing, so even though the dungeons aren't in stasis, the PCs definitely have an advantage over completely unexplored dungeon.
>>96771141Are you sure it's a clique?It's 1-3 trolls. Is that even a clique?
>>96771154Of course.
>>96769839NTA, I've been reading this general attentively for months. I think I have finally learned how to recognise who is worth listening to. I think those who reply with anything other than on topic discussion are making the thread worse. Using language anything more flowery than "off topic" just wastes everyone's attention. It will be even easier to identify trolls if they're the only ones shit flinging, as if both sides participate all newcomers will find is a stinky room full of people covered in shit....I am going to put a stinky room with two people covered in shit in my dungeon. They both claim the other is evil but a detect alignment spell will read: neutral. If the party try to take one side over the other they get sprayed with shit & suffer a -2 to hit until they doff and clean their armour. The only solution to this puzzle is to close the door and move along.
>>96771222>They both claim the other is evil but a detect alignment spell will read: neutral.All jokes aside, this is a genuinely amusing idea for an encounter. I will steal this.
>>96771222Trips checked and I agree with Anon, minus the scatological humor you have the nut of a good encounter there.
>>96771096Certain types of rooms are worth more. That means players don't want to waste time/resources finding hallways and broom closets and "100%ing" every inch of the map, they're looking for hidden shrines and breeding pits and anachronistic arcades and what not.
