Well all had a player like that>Ok, I would like my prosthetic hand to include a retractable blade!>AND a hidden gun!>AND the fingers can turn into tools!>AND I want to cover it with runes so that I can cast from itHere's the thing: I LOVE that kind of creativity and engagement from my players.I definitely don’t want to shoot those ideas down, but giving them a small rules framework can go a long way toward keeping things balanced and genre-consistent.Are there any systems I could borrow ideas from, to handle this sort of thing? Has anyone here tried house-ruling stuff like that?
fuck ruleslet them do it but they have to pay for materials
>>96796824Which system are you currently running with this inventive player, anon? Maybe someone will be able to point to existing rules or homebrew that you aren't yet aware of.
>>96796824I'm not just asking, by the way. Here's what I did before.It was during character creation, so it's a bit different, but still:>Scifi game>You get a certain number of Equipment Points based on how much Character Points you put into your equipment (in this case, a vehicle)>With these EP, you can buy a vehicle size>This vehicle size allows you for a certain number of free options. You can get extra options for extra points.>Stuff like "extra armour", "able to cross difficult terrains", "fast", "very fast" etc...>Obviously, some options take more EPs than some other. Like "flying", for example.>You can take some downsides ("large span", "high maintenance") in exchange for more EPsI presented the player who was designing his vehicle with all of these options and he picked. Thankfully he didn't come up with any ideas of options I hadn't listed.For the life of me I can't find the PDF I sent him, but you get the idea, it was all pretty straightforward.
>>96796824Like >>96796942 said, a system would be helpful. Generally speaking if it's anything like your pic though where it's basically just a gauntlet with a few hidden tools/gadgets, I'd probably just double the price of whichever weapon/gadget it was in order to represent the extra work it would take to integrate the necessary parts. And probably just put a cap of 4-5 gadgets just in terms of physical space.Because generally as long as an invention is mechanically similar enough something else, it doesn't really matter. A spring-loaded wrist blade is cool and all, but if it's functionally just a dagger that can't be thrown, it's not a big deal.
>>96796942>Which system are you currently running with this inventive player, anon?My own homebrew, which is gonzo scifi.But I was considering starting a swashbuckling campaign set in a retrofuturistic setting where Leonardo Da Vinci started a clockwork industrial revolution, so being able to design cool gadgets would of course be a must (and yeah, I checked that one game by Osprey and it doesn't have much in terms in rules for PC creating inventions, apparently). I wanted to use All for One as the system, for this one.Regardless, this type of situation is a common enough occurence that this would be useful in any sort of campaigns.
>>96796824I'd allow a retractable blade in a prosthetic hand/arm if it required something like popping the hand off or removing the hand to allow the blade out. Wolverine claw retractable blades could be easily gamed. I'd also would take the specific player into account, if they were a "that guy" player then I'd definitely put the aforementioned restrictions on it if the player is a good sort I'd be willing to be convinced of anything they want within reason.
>>96797043>My own homebrew, which is gonzo scifi.Alright, so here's a sincere question: Does it fucking matter if the player's idea is unbalanced? Balance is a fucking myth in the first place. It doesn't work in card games or war games and it's even less of a thing in RPGs. As long as the player isn't doing a bajillion damage per round and they can't be killed and also everyone thinks they're cool and sexy, does it matter if this robot arm thing has multiple uses?Think very carefully if this is at all a worthwhile thing to give a fuck about, or if you're just listening to the imaginary rules lawyer faggot in your head that demands that games adhere to some abstract D&D-esque school of game design thought where players must be constantly corralled and punished for trying to test the limits of what is already a broken, dogshit system
>>96797299Balance is moot anyway as I'd simply treat his gimmick device as an ordinary dagger or handgonne rules-wise.
>>96796824How hard would it be to recreate the effect within the game rules?A hidden blade is not really different than a hidden dagger. Can't even throw it. Works. A hidden gun? Well, are there guns in the setting? If yes, why not. It's just the same. Maybe a tiny bit stronger because it can't be taken away easily. Make it so it takes round to put the gun away so using it means sacrificing a hand for a while unless you want to spend an action fixing it and there you go, roughly equivalent. Or simply make it slightly weaker than an equivalent gun.Both at once? It's also not a drama. Same thing. Both but can be used at once? Now you're getting into "better than default options" territory. Increase price, add a penalty like a chance it gets stuck (or even something as simple as increasing fumble chance to 10% when using the hand even when not actually fighting, assuming common d20 rules). The more gadgets, the more prone it gets to breaking, and/or the more expensive it is to make and repair. Just keep the theme going and add some decisions points for the players to optimize to their taste (more powerful because two weapons at once but chance to break. More options, but they're all weaker because smaller to fit in... Maybe it has some kind of battery so you can't use it at full power every turn).These players want to customize and make their own unique thing, so if you want to throw them a bone, make sure you give them some options with pros and cons to pick and design their own thing. If you just give them a statblock they won't be happy.
>>96796824Stat lines represent the item, how the player describes it is of no concern. A two handed sword is a two handed sword and player can describe it like that klingon dueling blade from star trek for all I care.
>>96797953It's called "crunch" and "fluff." The crunch is what the game mechanics look like, the fluff is how the player describes it.DMs, don't give up the crunch if all the player wants is fluff.
>>96796824They can already do all of this stuff in my game with no house rules.
>>96796824... how is any of this a problem at fucking allLiterally any system can handle it>b-but unrealistic... yes, and?The easiest and most reliable way of having such things is to - wait for it - simply having such things. No point overthinking it, no point overworking yourself, just add it and stat it accordingly to its functionality>b-but muh balanceThis is a game of pretend.Also, consult pic related. It's one of the most robust and math-solid, yet also "whatever, man" gear and equipment ruleset ever created. And in game where gear is super-important, making third of all checks.
>>96796824Gee, that sure was tough. Game design is totally hard you guys!
>>96797761>These players want to customize and make their own unique thing, so if you want to throw them a bone, make sure you give them some options with pros and cons to pick and design their own thing. If you just give them a statblock they won't be happy.Unless you're into complex dedicated manufacturing systems, I think this is the key thing. If you're big on hard choices give them options that favor one use over others, if you're big on random rolls make them roll for degrees of success. Make the process feel like other parts of your game. >>96802958what game?
>>96803019Prowlers and Paragons. Doesn't give the players a stat block, allows every player to customize their gear in any way they can imagine.
>>96796824>Pay for appropriate materials>Skill checks for understanding of what he's doing>Skill checks for assembly and enchantment>Skill check to attach arm to man>Each of the previous steps takes time, preferably using up the character's downtime while the rest of the party has their own uses for said downtimeIts not hard OP. Even if you change up the specifics of the rules later, just treat any use of the previous iteration of the system as a moment of divine inspiration/raging incompetence, depending on how things had played out.As far as balance goes, an enchanted swiss-army gun-knife could be everything or nothing depending on how powerful the rest of the party/setting is. For your low-power players, designing a new form of prosthesis with a million bells and whistle might be too much. For a higher-power party, just let him have the fucking thing.
>>96803062None of this is necessary. Everything the player described is equal or worse to stuff players can already do by default.
>>96796824>>96797043It depends on what you want more:- Easy mechanical representation of gadgetsOR-A proper crafting system with all the bells and whistlesFor the first one Mutants & Masterminds has extremely robust effects system. You'd need to prohibit indestructible materials and so on, so that players need to work with what they have, but otherwise it would be easy to slot it in. Though the invention system itself is just a couple skill checks.The second part would be way harder. The closest, while also actually a decent system, would probably be something like Ars Magica with its magical research and spell creation system. You could probably adapt it for steam/clock punk setting gadget creation, but it would be a decent amount of work.
Indestructible items are fine.
>>96803131Indestructible items are fine in M&M where you have 99 ways to work around them. Since it's a supers game. It's way less fine when you make indestructible power armor or airship in a setting where you are more limited in your approaches of dealing with it. Plus crazy inventors breaking each other's toys is big part of the fun.
I suppose in a terrible game like mnm it would be a problem.
>>96797299>>96797576>>96802992>Does it matter if the player's idea is unbalanced?It does, for two reasons:1- I've made the mistake of just handwaving it like this before, and you can quickly get into a situation where the PC with the robot-who-can-turn-into-a-motorcycle-and-also-has-a-flamethrower ends up using it in much more situations than the PC who put the exact same amount of points in Investigation.Being able to have at least little guideline on how much point it should cost would be useful.2- Having rules means you can also add limitations and flaws, which can be fun. If there's no framework at all, there's no need for these flaws.>>96797953>Stat lines represent the item, how the player describes it is of no concern.Yeah, but then you end up in situations like>Well obviously my sword with a built-in gun can shoot then be used as a sword without the need to spend an action to switch between weaponsWhich shouldn't be possible if you had a both a gun and a sword.So either you arbitrarily decide that, no, you need to fold back the gun before using the sword, which takes exactly as long as switching weapons.Or you somehow need a price tag for "weapons which you don't need to spend actions to switch between".It's just one example, but cases where items logically should allow actions which shouldn't be allowed by the rules is very common.
>>96803469The rules already cover this. Switching weapons doesn't require an action, and you can attack as many times as you want in a turn. For every attack beyond the first you take -2d to all attacks, and you can't target the same opponent more than once in a turn.
>That one player who wants to introduce gunpowder to the setting.
I know, why would you waste your time trying to reintroduce an obsolete technology when far more powerful weapons already exist?
>>96796990So, in essence, a point buy system with traits/(dis)advantages?It makes sense for stuff you get at chargen, but how do you dole out the points during a campaign?It'd make sense to take a stock of materials, funds, and production options, time allowance.Then try to gauge how many points to give based on that.Or, alternatively, turn it into a common pool, like a "creative stamina", representing the effort one can put into something.Costs could be large, with resources being added giving offsetting traits to incentivize spending them.Tools and equipment giving appropriate cost modifiers. The pool is refreshed and recalculated between sessions.The hardest thing would be the pricing on things.
You don't need to gain points during play and there doesn't need to be a cost or currency tracking. Powers, Invention rules, Combat Stunts, and Power Stunts cover everything the player might want.
>>96805400>Invention rulesPredominantly gay unfun shit that assumes you only ever make world-breaking shit at level fuckoff, or build a weaponized carriage to carry the corpses of slain elves.
>>96805646Not at all. It does exactly what the player wants.
>>96803469>and you can quickly get into a situation where the PC with the robot-who-can-turn-into-a-motorcycle-and-also-has-a-flamethrower ends up using it in much more situations than the PC who put the exact same amount of points in Investigation.That's not how any of this works and if you've allowed it to get that bad, that's your fault.
>>96803469Of course, buying all of those effects will cost significantly more than a high rank in Investigation, and the hero with investigation will have many other means of interacting with the world, so there is no problem.
>>96796824>Are there any systems I could borrow ideas from, to handle this sort of thing? Barbarians of Lemuria/Honor+Intrigue have a subsystem for crafting and alchemy that's alright. WFRP 2e's Children of the Horned Rat, too, but it's VERY skaven-tied.
>>96796824Strike, Item; Blast, Item; and Expertise, Item for whichever Talents the tools are relevant to. Why is this supposed to be a problem?
>>96806006Why did you post this image?
>>96797299Nope, balance isn't a myth, Buhlman. You're just incompetent.
>>96796824Why haven't you replied to anyone who tried to help you?
>>96796824Unless the game is particularly about this, I don't let it happen. >because if it was effective, why isn't everyone walking around with wrist mounted flame throwers its a magical fantasy game, is growing back an arm not enough of a fantasy to you? The only people who do this are fucking retards who can't get over themselves.
>>96806321lol trash
>>96796824I have to wonder about the player's thought process here. He looks at the other heroes fighting giant mecha dinosaurs with magical constructs of force, power armor, teleportation, shape shifting, flight, super strength, and telekinesis, and thinks to himself "yeah, a hidden dagger! that'll be extremely useful!"? What's the reasoning?
>>96806386See Example A.
>>96806647Yeah, you're example A of knowing nothing about game design.
>>96806076Balance in a game where one person has the power to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and everyone else at the table has to deal with it cannot, by definition, be balanced. Kill the wargamer in your head, faggot.
>>96808208Not at all. I have a system where every player option is balanced and no player can make any other player irrelevant, no matter how they make decisions. Stay furious and incompetent.
>>96808383Functionally impossible, retard. That would require that all options be useful at all times, under all circumstances, and that no game ever exclude a chance for players to use every ability every session.
>>96810790Nope.
Oh its the lil PP dude back at it again, shitting up a thread with his imaginary "balanced" game (it's a storyshitting system)
Sorry you play bad games and have bad taste.
>>96810858This is like the third thread this week. I've never even played the game but I'm developing a distaste for it by proxy, lol.>>96808383Can you actually describe how that works instead of vagueposting? I'm curious to see if there's anything actually sane past your cuntish attitude. Like for example, let's say I make a deliberately unoptimized character - what's stopping an optimized character from being better than me?
>>96810974What do you imagine an unoptimized character would be like?
>>96810974you're the cunt btw
>>96811006How about something like an artificer who gets special bonuses when using stuff they've crafted, but has no skill at actually crafting. Or a fire mage who refuses to use fire spells.
>>96796824"Absolutely, the handmaker charges/you estimate the cost of manufacturing such a thing to be (price that necessitates immense time investment on the part of that PC)." This is how you bring about organic questing - player wants something for their character, if it's not plainly game-breaking you set them a condition that lets them go get it. The key is finding a price that's juuuuuuuuuuuust below balking point.
>>96811042So your clever idea is to make characters that don't do anything? lol
>>96811123Not necessarily, just one that doesn't take advantage of their own strengths. If I'm the Last Descendant of Prometheus, giving me a boost to all fire-related spells... But I prep nothing but ice runes, I'm gonna be less powerful that someone who doesn't do that. Right?
>>96811068If I had a player determined to do this level of OP bullshit, here's what I would do:>Ask them to pick a character class>Detail abilities of the class, let's say Wiz>Have them pick spells>Instead of casting spells like normal, give them their toy and only let them do things that class can do>Same limits, uses, damage, everythingFun.
>>96811249Sure, you could put only a few ranks into Blast, Ice, and then you would have more points to put into other things, and you have the same number of points as every other hero, and a character sheet isn't valid until all points have been allocated.Obviously no system can prevent you from being stupid on purpose. I can make Bob the Fighter and immediately after character creation, walk into the ocean and drown. That isn't a gotcha, and it doesn't contradict anything I've said. It still actually is the case that you can't make other characters irrelevant, because there are no strictly better choices. There is no spell called Force Cage that some characters aren't allowed to interact with. You can't summon an Angel that's better at fighting than the fighting specialist and also has spell-like abilities. Etc.
>>96805891I can see that being a problem if it's upfront apt character creation, but if the player actually has to put effort into constructing stuff (eg >>96811068) then it wouldn't feel that unfair IMO. More akin to the progression of quadratic wizards v. linear fighters than a straight up imbalance.>>96811310So there's no character option that combos well with Blast Ice? Sounds kinda like Fate, daysu.
>>96811377Who said that? Why don't you respond to what I actually wrote? At least have some skill or subtlety if you're going to be dishonest.
>>96811385I'm asking you, dumbass. ARE there any options that combo well with it?
>>96811457No you weren't. "So there's no option that combos" is a statement, the punctuation after it doesn't matter. You assumed that there isn't one, because you're desperate for a gotcha.If you have a question about the system, like, "Are there any options a player could use in combination with such a power to achieve a greater effect?", you are free to ask it, without attitude, in a manner which is acceptable to me. In such a case, I will consider deigning to consider thinking about possibly gracing you with such information as you have shown you are ready and sufficiently mature to receive.
>>96811489But was I right tho
>>96811514Incorrect.
>>96811517Prove it. Gimme an example.
>>96811553Beg.
>>96811567Lol
>>96811596:)
>>96811310>Sure, you could put only a few ranks into Blast, Ice, and then you would have more points to put into other thingsThis sounds interesting to me. Are the rules very complex, or are they more on the micro game side of things?
>>96811665I don't think they are. There are a lot of options, but they all use the same resolution mechanic, so it's pretty easy to learn.
>>96811677check it out, this guy likes micro pp
lol he's so fuckin mad
>>96810974>Can you actually describe how that works instead of vagueposting?He's just baiting for reactions so he can do this pithy little "I win :)" reply shit for attention.
>>96811771mad :)
