>1e: The lich casts a Death Spell against your 12th level mage and your 1st level apprentice.>"Ok, I need to make a Save vs Spells 9 or better. Level 1 here only saves on a 19 or better. He's in trouble.">5e: The lich casts a Death Spell against your 12th level mage and your 1st level apprentice.>Uh-oh! Here I am getting punished again for trying to role-play a wizard who only has a 14 INT. I need to roll 14 or under while my genius DEI apprentice has 19 INT like the average 5e wizard and only needs 19 or under.>DM: "eh, it's ok, even if you fail you get 3 death saves or re-roll several times using your inspiration points or drink a Resurrection Potion. You can't really die.">"Yeah I know, but it's the principle."
This is a 5e problem, yeah.Play a good edition like BX or 3.5 or AD&D 1e
>>968101833.5 has exactly the same problem you fuckin' goober.
>>96810317This. Imagine allowing your players to use anything but standard array. Players are already retarded, it's just asking for problems >but my orc fighter is really smart
>>96810317You have good saves and bad instead of good saves and untouched saves.
>>96810317>3.5 has exactly the same problem you fuckin' goober.Who said it was introduced in 5e, retard. You're a 100 IQ Reddit midwit, aren't you?>Reddit IQ test:>"In 50 AD, the Romans specialized in melee with the gladius and scutum." >"In WW1, melee combat was irrelevant and rarely happened.">"Explain how firearms changed warfare.">You:"LOL firearms weren't invented in WW1 they were around before then!!"
>>96810419That doesn't make ability bonuses any less important.
>>96810490>>96810183>This is a *5e problem*, yeah.>Play a good edition like BX or *3.5* or AD&D 1eAkon is claiming that is a problem for 5e, and then recommending another edition where it is just as much of a problem as a fix. I never said anything about 5 being the game that introduced it.
>>96810173That's not how saves in 5e work. A 19 Int wizard at level 1 adds +6 to their saves. A level 12 Wizard with 14 Int is adding the same +6, although realistically speaking the level 12 Wizard has had 3 chances to boost hist Intelligence by that point, and so could easily have 20 Int.None of that really changes the overall point though, since the bonus from your Ability Score is going to be the bigger portion of your saving throw at most levels, and in some cases you don't even get a benefit from being higher level at all. A level 20 Wizard who needs to make a Strength save is just as vulnerable as a level 1 Wizard with the same Strength.All of that aside, this is something that stems from WotC's takeover of the game and changing how ability scores work, and how they unified most aspects of the game. They flipped around THAC0 into BAB, and then made saves and spell DCs all function off of the same map. 5e simply narrowed down the range of numbers even further so that the difference in bonuses between a high level and low level character was further minimized. A level 1 character is likely to have +5 to a task, while a level 20 character is likely to have +11.
>>96810533>That's not how saves in 5e work. A 19 Int wizard at level 1 adds +6 to their saveJesus Christ. I know B/X and 1e/2e. While I know the concept of how they changed ability scores I don't know the magnitude.Don't these fucking retards understand you've accomplished nothing by giving everyone a flat, unearned bonus. "Hey Zoomers, I know you guys cry if you don't have big bonuses so from now on, I'm giving an ability score of 18 a bonus of +20! That's right, a big old 20 or a "crit bonus" ha ha! Of course now to prevent you automatically making every ability check, I'm going to add a penalty of -20 to every check. What's that, Timmy? You only have an INT of 12 and no bonus? Yes, you're going to have a hard time rolling a 35 on the d20, I didn't think of that. Well who cares, I doubt we'll have any combat in this campaign anyway. I bought the new 5.5 adventure book and it's all magical college and baristas and ballrooms and gay sex, I don't think you'll need to make a save."
>>96810596>While I know the concept of how they changed ability scores I don't know the magnitude.Fair enough. I only bring it up for the sake of clarity. There's plenty of legitimate criticism available without needing to make things up. >I'm giving an ability score of 18 a bonus of +20!See, this is the part that 5e did actually try to walk back, where the raw numbers and bonuses aren't nearly as inflated as 3.5 or 4e. Although 4e also did its scaling by just adding half-level to most things.In the context of 5e, ability scores are more important than level because level is a bonus that ranges from +2 to +6, and Ability score typically goes up to +5. But because the numbers are so small, the difference between a 14 and a 16 makes up a higher portion of your maximum possible bonus.
Haha whatJust dont make a shit character dude, it says right there in the class quickstart to make your best stat INT
>>96810173>I made an intentionally poor decision>I am being punished for this poor decision> This is so unfair, how could this happen to me?Even within world's context your wizard wasn't going to stay at 14 int for long since he's (presumably) been adventuring, learning new things and gaining experience.Mind, I'm not defending D&D, i'm just calling you retarded.
that example is bad but the problem is pretty true. Abilitiy scores are in a bad state overall in RPGs right now. With DnD the problem is not earning many ability scores as you level up. I liked the hackmaster system for advancement. You see this in CRPGs they love granting you ability scores when you level up. Dnd should do this but dnd is afraid of scaling up these days
>>96810173I just need to look at this brainrot webm to know that whatever you posted is some stupid bullshitdidn't read.
>>96810522Edition don't matter.
>>96810490Gross. You can smell the seethe seeping from this post.
>>96810173Because d&d is filled with rainbow hugging faggots who have no respect for the hobby.
>>96814337based
>>96810173roleplaying a low int wizard is the same as roleplaying a wizard that's bad at blocking spellsyou're a wizard that spent 11 levels not improving his spellcasting abilityget fucked
I don't know what that is, but I have a painfully strong urge to set whoever made it on fire.
>>96810419And the difference between the two numbers in 3.5 is, last I checked, roughly equal to a character’s proficiency bonus at the same level in 5e. So “good vs bad” and “good vs untouched” have the same delta and the only difference is that the numbers aren’t arbitrarily higher.
>>96810173Play a different game.>>96810596>I bought the new 5.5 adventure book and it's all magical college and baristas and ballrooms and gay sex, I don't think you'll need to make a save.Why are 5etards like this
>>96814516Trolling is against the rules.
>>96810596Who are you quoting?
>>96826860D&D 5th Edition Player's Handbook (2024)
>>96826936Page number?
>>96826940Just read the book, faggot. Make sure you pirate it so Sissies of the Coast don't get anything.
>>96826955Sure, give me the page number that text appears on and I'll read it.
>>96821260It's a goat run through AI.
>>96825995>those sleeves>no shoulders thoRetarded.
>>96810173>D&DFound your problem
>>96826822I'm not trolling, anon. The other anon said Akon made a statement and I was simply correcting them. Akon doesn't strike me as the kind of person to care about edition wars.
>>96810173You clearly don't understand how saves in 5e work, OP. There are problems with the new system but they're not as you've described.
>>96810173>>Uh-oh! Here I am getting punished again for trying to role-play a wizard who only has a 14 INT.That's a good thing.>>I need to roll 14 or under while my genius DEI apprentice has 19 INT like the average 5e wizard and only needs 19 or under.In 5e you don't roll under>>DM: "eh, it's ok, even if you fail you get 3 death saves or re-roll several times using your inspiration points or drink a Resurrection Potion. You can't really die."You can only reroll once with inspiratoin. You also can't drink a resurrection potion when you're unconcious aka at 0 HP. There also isn't a potion of resurrection.>>"Yeah I know, but it's the principle."What principle?
>>96810173Because stats and vocations should have meaningful distinctions from one another. Do you have the same IRL Strength as every other person you work with?>What if I want to RP a low INT character with a class that uses INT as a main stat?!Then you opted into being a subpar retard, which exists in all fields of expertise. Congrats, you did this to yourself.
The one thing I'll say in OP's favor is that having ability scores matter less is better when the primary method of making characters was rolling. If there's no difference between having a 10 and 14 for a particular stat, and the difference between 14 and higher scores is minimal or doesn't apply until higher levels, then rolling 10s across the board can still give you a functional character. But once you're not rolling for stats, then that benefit starts to matter less. A PC being subpar because they have 1 fewer point is then the player's choice, rather than random chance, and so it's not a big issue.
>>96831551The retards taking the bait are missing this point entirely because they're midwit retards.>yikes, that's what you get for playing a 14 Int mage my dude, try to be a better person #NoKings!With the current rules every single player will have an 18 Int wizard unless you're some kind of faggot perfomatively weakening your PC. OP's point is when comparing two PC's, how much difference do you want derived from abilities vs. level? Obviously it should be levels. I bet the 5e "designers" couldn't even coherently describe why they made ability scores more important other than "well, we did a survey and players wanted a stat bonus of at least +5 at level one." Since everyone will pump their primary stats to max, ability scores become a fixed bonus for the class. I don't play 5e but my understanding of Freakshit Edition is they made it even worse with abhorrent decisionst like "Oh, the furry activist is screeching online that his Bard's CHR doesn't give him combat bonuses? Ok, can't have him crying into his catboy fursuit, we'll let his to hit and damage scale with CHR."
>>96834259>I don't play 5e but my understanding of Freakshit Edition is they made it even worse with abhorrent decisionst like "Oh, the furry activist is screeching online that his Bard's CHR doesn't give him combat bonuses? Ok, can't have him crying into his catboy fursuit, we'll let his to hit and damage scale with CHR."I'm pretty sure this has more origins in 4th edition, where they had a pretty wild variety of attacking stats, in what seemed mostly like an attempt to address MAD classes from 3.5 by making it so characters needed fewer high stats to be effective. 5e had it initially only in the form of Shillelagh as a cantrip to let Druids use Wisdom with clubs/staffs. Later expanded with Warlock and Artificer for Cha and Int, and as of 2024 True Strike now easily enables any spellcasting stat.None of that really changes the overall point though.Ultimately it's a design choice that stems from how modifiers are derived from ability scores. If a Monk needs 16 Str, Con, Dex, and Wis in order to be effective, then every monk just ends up being bad to play because you can't start with that many 16s. But rather than making it so you don't need 16s, they just made it so you need less 16s.
>>96831339Depends massively on how reliant mechanics are on stats.In 1e and 2e D&D Intelligence didn't really matter to Magic-Users until level 9+. A level 8 9 Int Magic User had the same access to spells as a level 8 18 Int Magic-User. A 14 Int Magic-user was functionally identical to an 18 Int one until they both reached level 15.WotC changed this by making Int much more important than it was in previous editions.>>96831551>>96834259>>96834446That is more the result of the awful job WotC did tuning things. They tuned the numbers around high stats forcing players to need high stats rather than high stats being a bonus. When your opponents are tuned around you having at least a +3 bonus in a stat having a 16+ stat is pretty much forced.
>>96834776Tuning things is part of it, but it also just doesn't work as well when the difference between scores results in a drastic impacts. Like you said with earlier editions, Intelligence basically doesn't make a difference until higher levels. I think it adjusts languages and how many spells you can learn, but that's pretty easy to work around.But even a stat that has more differences at lower levels tends to have smaller differences than 5e. You can't even get +3 to hit from 18 Strength or Dexterity in AD&D. Or well, a Fighter can get it from 18 Strength, if they roll a 00 for exceptional Strength, but that's a 1% chance. For the other 99% of characters, if you have 10 Str/Dex, then you're at most missing out on 2 to hit, and either 2-5 damage or 4 AC, compared to a character with an 18. If 5e was built around characters having a +0 mod to hit from their attribute and the most they could reasonably improve that through stats was a +2? There would be drastically less pressure to hit those higher scores. But if it was still a difference of +0 and +5, people would still be rushing for it because it'd be too big of a bonus to ignore.
