>"no u cant have undead working instead of killing stuff...CUZ YOU JUST CAN'T OK!!! FOLLOW THE FANTASY TRADITIONS!!!"why do people still want fantasy to be stagnant, boring and predictable if everyone thinks the same with their imagination whats the point of this hobby lol
>>96843709
>>96843709>this fucking thread againMaybe if you kill yourself, a necromancer will reanimate your remains to do something useful.
>>96843748>>this fucking thread again>Maybe if you kill yourself, a necromancer will reanimate your remains to do something useful.
>>96843709Lots of settings have had the trope of a bunch of undead working many menial jobs for their master. It just usually tends to be that they work in the castle of some necromancer because, ya know, killing people and reanimating their bodies is kinda evil.
This argument is in fact better than most other /tg/ arguments right now.
>>96843709Nobody is stopping you, but necromancers tend to fill the 'objectively bad' niche in most games cosmologies while golems, clockwork or nature spirits cover the neutral constructed things role.Negative energy poisoning the wheat making it sickly, blood sacrifices required for the harvest and small children going missing are the kind of things most players and worldbuilders would expect if you try this.
>>96843760>if u kill ur enemies they win>>96843775based>>96843790fuck tropes
>>96843775Testicular cancer is better than most /tg/ threads right now
>>96843790>Negative energy poisoning the wheat making it sickly, blood sacrifices required for the harvest and small children going missing are the kind of things most players and worldbuilders would expect if you try this.lmao stfu with this dnd shit negative, positivive, neutral pink yellow blue? i dont give a shit i wanna play what i wanna play and have fun you dumb fuck lmao>>96843808epic
>>96843709You can do whatever the fuck you like in your novel.The attraction of RPGs is largely interacting with fantastical worlds from stories. Novelty is to a large extent beside the point, if not actively against it.
>>96843709The fact that you either play every game RAW or don't have a GM who's willing to incorporate house rules that you'd enjoy isn't anyone else's fault, retard.Make your game how you want, or shut your fuck hole.
>>96844046it kinda is the games fault for teaching people how to act and be retarded together lol
>>96843814Then run the game you want to play, no one's stopping you.
>>96844153I don't understand what you're talking about.As soon as I learned that D&D wasn't going to feature anything I want out of a game, I learned game design and started my own projects, because D&D fans can't stand people being critical of their precious slop.The only options are to find a game master willing to house rule what you want, or make your own game with what you want.
>>96844164i wanna play not run retard
>>96843709Because if it isn't a Tolkein clone it's not "real fantasy" because retards want their fantasy world to stagnate and die just as much as they want the real world to stagnate and die.
>>96843709I prefer using elementals.https://youtu.be/39brM5tYjmU
>>96844539yeah pretty much this loleither LOTR slop, WoW slop or GOT slop
>>96844603Or D&D slop, which is just LOTR Slop put through a WoW Slop filter.
>>96843814>i wannaYou're not playing one, are you?
>>96843709>why do people still want fantasy to be stagnant, boring and predictable>he asks when all her can think of for "MUH GOOD ZOMBIES" is a farming commune for the hundredth fucking timelol
>>96844666>le smug tranimego back
>>96843709>Akshually my necromancers are small business owners and my vampires drink grape juice and they're all upstanding citizens and nothing exciting happens ever, ok? Get ready, because next session you'll help Mr. Skellington catch the dog that stole his tibia!
>>96844678Not a very active player enjoying a game playing a silly necromancer, are you?
>>96844677ur a faggot we know
>>96844685i didnt say that you smug faggot>>96844687nobody cares nigger
>>96843709>you can't resurrect a dead thread over and over to serve an useful purpose because...YOU JUST CAN'T OK!!! RESPECT THE SHITPOSTING TRADITIONS!!!
>>96844758>"LEAVE MY BOTTED THREADS ALONE!!!"yes lol
>>96843709There's a difference between being creative and adventurous with a genre and just being subversive or wacky for it's own sake.That's pretty much why all fantasy has been lame for years. It tries way too hard to be different or zany. All good fantasy has rules and abides by them.Raising the dead is objectively bad in a society that respects it's people. Anyone with empathy instinctively understands this.That said, I have played a necromancer who used undead for company because he was a lonely recluse and utility instead of combat, but his main character flaw was that he lacked empathy, so ...
>>96843709Traditional games?
The point of GMing isn't to be inherently creative in every decision, it is to get a good session going.
>>96844971then make a better setting
>>96845113Why? I'm not the one unhappy with existing settings. I think there are a lot of great fantasy settings. I'm not bothered by the fact that all of them are old.
>>96843709>"what if le good necromancer" thread #142069>creativeYou first OP
>>96843709Oh yeah, OP, if you're so progressive, why can't I marry and impregnate the skeletons?
>>96845242The skeletons will impregnate you.
>>96844510Make a solo game, shit for brains.
>>96843709>This tread againFrom the very top of my head:Presence of the undead makes plants wither and rot.
>>96845516>this image again
>>96845474i rather smoke lsd and halucinate
>>96843709Its very easy to think out the implications of magic in ways that totally destroy what a setting is actually trying to be.There are so many convenient hacks you could probably do with magic if you think about it that this always leads you to a kind of modernish industrialized society if you want it to, but if you go down that route you lose your open ended highly localized vaguely midevil setting for exploring adventurers to fight bad guys in.Alternatively you can set up your worldbuilding so that your magic doesn't have these implications, limit it with rules and complications or make it rare and hard to do, but rpg like settings are generally more interested in including a wide variety of extremely versatile magical elements because thats fun for the players, and that's a higher priority than making it so you can't logically extrapolate those things in ways that make it unlikely that the world would operate in the way does.
>96843709Planescape did it -Sigil had a faction using bodies, making contracts with the Living to be allowed to use them after their death - which means that was already a thing in AD&D 2e, you're 30 years late OP.
>>96843709Necromancy is evilSimple as
>>96843709>why do people still want fantasy to be stagnant, boring and predictable>im-fucking-plying that what if necromancy but good isn't one of the most overused contrarian ideas ever in tabletop
How old is good necromancer spam here now? Almost two decades?
>>96843709>I'm going to work you to the bone>Actually I need to you to put in overtime anywayThe issue is that it is a employment contract violation
>>96844971You could easily justify necromancy with a religious or philosophical reason like it's your final duty to serve future generations .
>>96843709Using the undead for labor is an old idea. Your not original or creative, just poorly read.
>>96843814then fucking do it instead of complaining like a little bitch you uncreative fucking maggoti swear some people here have intelligence less than worms
>>96843760There's an endless supply of skeletons from people who died in the past and there's people dying everything of old age and disease, why would you need to kill anybody?
>>96843709No argument is required. Follow the traditions. You CANNOT do otherwise.
>>96843709>>96843709To me?Its because if you're going to be doing something like that, there are far, far, far too many implications that are extremely far reaching. Just saying "okay, we got skeleton farmers now" and ending it at that wouldn't really do the idea justice. You're basically attempting to portray an automated post labor society springing up in the middle ages. I can accept the idea if you put a fuck of a lot of thought into it, what all those people do with their newfound freedom, how the economy changes, etc etc. etc. But if you're just going to run the world the same way but with skeleton farmers I'm completely out. I'd rather just have "Necromancy is evil. Period." as an excuse than a poorly thought out "twist" like that.
>>96843709you can't have undead working instead of killing stuff because it requires a powerful Magic User to be able to cast Animated Dead and if control ever slips, such as from the MU dying, then they revert back to default undead behavior: chaotic and always hostile to living creatures.
>>96848176Good, stay out then. Your presence is not desirable.
>>96848538Not D&D.
>>96843709If having undead workers is that easy and has no real consequence, then why are there regular farmers? Why is your fantasy world stuck in medieval stasis if it has basically developed automation?Think before you open your mouth, anon
>>96843709It depends on your setting. Start writing.If it just amount to lol skeleton farmers, then lol, stepdancing dragons with tophats - twice as long and more interesting?
>>96848176A 'post labour society' created through necromancy is effectively just a group of people who've got very cheap slaves. Necromancer kings couldn't work in feudal Europe, but you could have a necro-ottoman, roman or even russian empire. Ancient Greece might work too.
>>96843709Because the economics of it don't fucking work, Anon. Even assuming the undead are totally free to maintain, this leads to a situation where you have a mass population that are not being productive. You haven't made the requisite industrial advances to move that labor into doing something. And while you can argue "oh but people will be more free to do things", you run into a problem: who owns the land, and who owns the undead. Because unless every individual farmer is his own lord and necromancer, the answer is "the state" in whatever form the state is. So why the fuck would the state be inclined to keep any kind of watch over a bunch of people who produce nothing, eat all that valuable grain you could be selling, and are generally more useful as corpses? They wouldn't.Speaking of corpses. Did you think the bodies of the dead would be respected? Absolutely not. If you have graveyards, they are being robbed. A new type of slaver emerges, one who murders you, raises your body, and sells it to someone who puts you to work in the fields. Violent conflict becomes a means to just create more corpses to put in more fields.And then there's a fucking sanitary issue. Yeah, I get it, farm lands aren't actually all that clean. But the idea of "yeah and the plants are going to be tended to by rotting corpses" is not helping the situation in the slightest.It's a bad idea.
>>96849278>Necromancer kings couldn't work in feudal EuropeSure they could, especially post Black Death
>>96843709>why do people still want fantasy to be stagnant, boring and predictable if everyone thinks the same with their imagination whats the point of this hobby lolFirst, corpses are a health hazard, imagine that handling your food or clothes. Second, undead labor encourages people to be killed for more cheap labor, you may argue they use criminals, until they don't. Third, one Joker to tople your society with a simple bone invading joke. Fourth, undead tend to feed or compulsorily go kill the living if unsupervised.
Even if they were okay with the concept, most people would still be against uncle Joe eternally working the fields outside as a shambling ghoul so you'd need to source unfamiliar undead to sell to them and that starts to causes all sorts problemsPerhaps if the necromancers had an arrangement with the loan sharks/bail bondsman who offered a repayment discount for men that allowed their bodies to be necroed and then sold for profit
>>96843709Because genres exist for a purpose. People WANT stories about orcs and elves, evil necromancers, the power of friendship, mentor figures who die in act 2, fireballs and dragons. What you think is a clever subversion of a stale format is to most people a strange violation of expected conventions. There was a quote, and I can't find it, but it goes something like this:>Wit is like a fart. Nobody enjoys it when someone else does itNobody wants to engage with your clever deconstructions of tropes. The tropes are what they're here for
>>96843709Depends on what setting and what system. Which is?
>>96844678your troon brethen specifically hate this anime for being chud coded
>>96843709why would a dead nigga work a fieldthat makes no sense. skeletons don't eat and don't need to pay taxes cuz they're already deadfuck the king I'm a skeleton NIGGA what are you gonna do, kill me?
>>96848768You first, retard.
>>96843709like most things where you take one minor aspect of the setting and expand it out necromancy as infinite free energy is lame and stupid unless you do like >>96848176 and go all the waybut more importantly how does this help you play games? what story/quest/mechanical advantages do fields filled with skeletons have over fields worked by living people?
>>96852948Games are perfect complete simulations of imaginary worlds down to the quantum level. Don't argue.
>>96849784Hello?
Fuck morally grey morality. Good and evil should be objective. If everything is grey then moral dilemmas don't really exist, and you can do whatever you want like a pack of savages.Fuck pretending that a monster is the same as a Greek or Croatian, it's not an ethnic group it's an invasive species with tool use and social organization worthy of genocide at human hands.Fuck people who play non-human-like monstrous shit and then act surprised when human commoners freak out and try to kill them when they walk into town.Fuck any and all "necromancy can be good" fags. It's evil to any culture with taboos about handling and interacting with the dead, in other words, most of them that aren't subhuman.
nah.
>>96843709Nothing wrong with a literal skeleton crew, the problems start if they lose control of the skeletons. In D&D at least, a necromancer's death frees the undead from their control, and an evil cleric can command the undead.
>>96843709Because once you start applying real world logic and reasoning to fantasy it starts to mirror the real world.Suddenly instead of heroic adventurers going off to fight the evil sorcerer. You have gnomes working in offices and wizards sending faxes through their crystal ball and dragon powered steam power plants.
>>96854428That's good.
>>96843709>dude what if these mages that desecrate the natural order by reviving rotting corpses and bidding them to their will were actually le good guys
>>96843709>destroying the labor aristocracy by creating a bunch of useless feedersYou are a severely mentally ill NEET.
>>96854511*a society of useless feeders, rather
This setting exists.
>>96844539the fantasy setting you want is by definition stagnant and dead.
>>96853884>Fuck any and all "necromancy can be good" fags. It's evil to any culture with taboos about handling and interacting with the dead, in other words, most of them that aren't subhuman.This. OP is just another materialistic cretin with no concept of the sacred or profane, ironically placing him even lower than elephants and certain chimp tribes.
Just play a setting where Necromancers are normalized to get it out of your system, Hollowfaust is->>96854557My man! Play this and stop complaining.
>>96843709Isn't this the basic setup of Blood Lords for PF2e?
>>96843709>CtrF>No JakandorFFS, /tg/ has no old members left.
>>96849316>So why the fuck would the state be inclined to keep any kind of watch over a bunch of people who produce nothing, eat all that valuable grain you could be selling, and are generally more useful as corpses?Welcome to Geb, where the undead citizenry reign and the living are just another resource to be used and abused.>>96855491Its the premise of the nation of Geb, which Blood Lords takes place in. A farming nation of undead that uses its living population as cattle and resources, using skeleton and zombie slaves as farm workers, the crops being sold to other nations as to secure a powerful reason not to invade and destroy an entire nation that is an affront to all things natural.
>>96844510Then shut the fuck up. You get what you give.
>>96843709Because necromancers tend to be too ambitious for something as pedestrian as farming.
>>96855590Welcome to a post-AI tech bro oligarchy, if one was inclined to lay the analogies on with a trowel.
>>96843709cuz people are used to the same things in fantasy so their mind goes to the same old stuff. most of the old stuff works hence why it became established but it doesn't mean you have to make dragons breathe fire every time or that elves must be assholes to everyone else but maybe you should keep dwarves with beards and underground, yknow? be creative but not stupid.if you setting allows for undead sentience then sure, they wouldn't all be killers sitting in dungeons. they could even be normal and carve out a piece of the world for themselves.personally I'm writing out a personalized version of the warcraft rpg where I just write over parts I dont like. I don't care for things being thousands of years old since they never get written to act like they are, so some races act different and others have a shitload of retconning and new characters for ancient events rather than the same old 10,000 year old elf who acts the same as an irrational mortal. also the old gods are real eldritch gods while titan stuff is scaled back a bit.tons of changes, really making it into something I personally enjoy and I recommend everyone else to do the same for settings they like but not LOVE
Why can't the magic just grow the crops then animate them to harvest themselves? Or just conjure food. You're taking too many extra steps to justify exhuming corpses.
>>96843709The Forgotten Realms has had undead workers as well as monsters since at least 1995.
>>96843709will I get paid for my undead labour tho? otherwise why would I ever agree to be a skeleton worker?
>>96843709Have you ever dealt with undead labor unions? They have an infinite tolerance for bureaucracy, they have absolutely no incentive to keep them around, and as the necromancer in question, you're burning yourself at both ends just to keep them around and in working condition. Just hire a living bloke.
>>96859253And don't even get me started on the skeletons mixing bones and needing to get paid in fractions.You ask one bag of bones for some overtime, and suddenly you have a fucking math nightmare, because 60 goddamn skeletons were packed in there.
>>96859080Your consent is not required.
>>96853148>>96849784Aaah, no answer because no game...
>>96843709Why would a normal farmer want to have actual witchcraft and zombies plowing the fields for him? Literally stinking miasmic corpses spreading disease, animated by dark, evil powers... it's bound to give people the creeps. Not to mention if the servant is someone they knew.What makes you think a decaying body will be effective under the summer sun, with crows, locusts, fungi and other pests that roam the fields?Is it even cheap to animate them?From a meta perspective, it's better to leave necromancy and magic in general as rare rather than commonplace. If people get used to it, it stops being impressive and mysterious.
