People always shit on 4e, but at least it gave us cantrips so spell-casters wouldn't be totally worthless at low levels, something that many future tabletops stole from it...
4e is a great game
>>96885753It's not.But cantrips were a great ideaAnd some mmos should have used designs for tanks from it, instead of coming with shit like monk in fellowship, that doesn't even work
>>96885732>>968857534e was objectively shit, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it was the most fun edition for building a character.
>>96885732Cantrips were introduced in 3e, what are you talking about?
>>96885800Cantrips were actually introduced by Gary Gygax in 1e.
>>96885800Cantrips were introduced in 2e. They became 0th Level spells in 3.0 and At Wills in you know where.
>>96885732So many things that 5e players praise are lifted from 4e, just with the names changed so that people don't realize.
>>96885732It's a fun edition and if you hate it you're either coming from 3.5 and expected more of the same or you're parroting someone else's opinion.4e introduced a lot of things 5efags like and now it's being copied by both 5e and PF2
>>96885830Objectively bad. The whole system turned the game into a cheesy wannabe Munchkin. Still, if that's what you want, it isn't a failed franchise, just not good at all as a TTRPG.
>>96885862"It's not an rpg, it's a_____"It's not, but it did have to compete with all of these things! An edition of D&D realizing this was why it changed so radically all at once when it was usually the Best Game of 1977 or 1987, but ten or more years after the fact.(In contrast, FASA realized that Shadowrun was competing with a lot of non-RPG factors back in 1996 or 1997. Typically, the publisher of D&D is still slow to the punch.)
>>96885931This is the spirit that got us 5e. I agree that its not a bad game. Thinking of it competing on that level is an interesting view, but it's swayed by the fact the audience was already baked in after 3.5e.The more that I think of it, I see Hasbro grabbing for cash more than anything else. Still, I'll stick to this game until I can't anymore. I already homebrew tons of shit for my players, crafting and magical plants.
>>96885732Wizards are only worthless at low level if you use evocation. Sleep is one of the most busted spells in D&D to where a normal wizard has a very real chance of killing an ogre 1v1.
>>96885800Cantrips were still limited-use in pre-4e editions.
>>96885823How can cantrips have been introduced in 2e when they were already in 1e?
>>96885732Oh boy it's another>NOOO I'M USELESS IF I CAN'T USE MAGIC IN LITERALLY EVERY SITUATION TO CONCEPTUALLYSOLVE LITERALLY ANY PROBLEMGandalf is useless because he had to lower himself to using a mere sword to fight. Fucking loser.
>>96888217Gandalf was demigod who could slaughter hundreds in melee, so very bad exampleusing acid spray twice and then contribute nothing until next rest, was fucking bad.
>>96885830It's not a fucking RPG. It's a board game that turns everything into a codified roll and actively punishes players for trying to be clever and circumvent rules interactions like they're supposed to do in all RPGs. 4E died for a reason, only people who don't know what an RPG is liked it.
>>96889190No, it's good. Casters should not be able to cast themselves out of every problem.
>>96885732pathfinder and 5e ritual systems was taken directly from 4e too.
>>96885732No, people don't shit on 4e. Lemmings do.
>>96885732>people shit on 4e but at least it gave us {literally one of the shittiest things from it}
>>96885825This. Literally just open the Essentials books. The way classes are presented has not changed (except instead of a cleanly formatted encounter power that you can use 3 times before a short rest they have to write long paragraphs conveying the same information).5e's super cool "flat math" is just Dark Sun's inherent enhancement bonus - half level scaling.
>>96885862>The whole system turned the game into a cheesy wannabe Munchkin.>this totally didn't happen in 3rd at the latestSee, this is how we know you're a nogaems.
>>96889444Riddle me this: How are these problems in 4e but not problems in 3rd? PF is the one where you need to take five feats to wipe your ass.
>>96889464Don't be retarded, mang. 5e rituals work very differently from 4e ones.
>>96889901What, no, 3.5 didn't have any of that.It's not like loose wording and poorly thought abilities lead to the most insane shit being posted on the CharOp boards for the 3.5 era.Like yeah, everyone knows Punpun. But with the loss of the old forums, we've lost a lot of other broken shit, like the Ruby Knight Vindicator build that's entire thing was throwing people far enough that they (if this were earth), would leave orbit.
I wish leader cantrips had survived. Do a little less damage with an attack, that also then boosts the big fighty guy's attack or movement in some way was a great concept
>>96885732It gave them damage cantrips (at-wills), which were just a more flavorful way of giving every spellcaster a crossbow. The cool cantrips are the ones where you create sounds, flashing lights or make it appear that someone else has shit their pants. Only wizards got some of these in 4e.
>>96885732Is that supposed to be some amazing innovation? You guys know there are other ways of designing games right? lol
>>96888217Yes, retard. The guy whose character concept is fights with a sword uses his his sword to fight, and the guy whose concept is fights with magic uses his magic to fight.
>>96889447Fighters shouldn't be able to fight.
>>96889444Not like they're supposed to do.
>>96889944You just described the game being what you said it wasn't
>>96889444Trying to circumvent the rules isn't clever and it isn't what you're supposed to do in RPGs.
>>96885732It is just too complicated to play offline.The amount of conditional modifiers can get WILD at even mid levels if you aren't using some kind of software to keep track of all your shit.but>>96885794You had so many possible character builds it was so fun. There was almost no boring round of combat possible once you have a few per-encounter or daily abilities to choose from.Tell me that 4e Monk was not the coolest Monk in any game that has ever had it as an option.
>>96885732To me what is hilarious is that Hit Dice do exactly what anti-4e people said Healing Surges do and no one bitches about it because of reasons.
>play 4e>time to feel bad ass when you start with 30x the hit poonts of an average orc warrior
>>96890769Hello saar
>>968857322e players have fun memories of when their spellcaster ran out of spells and had to resort to awkwardly trying to fight.That said, at least a few cantrips a day like in 1e/3e is probably a good way to go about it.
>>968910415e hit dice are free out-of-combat healing, a bonus that is often forgotten.4e healing surges are a hard cap on how much healing you can receive in a day because the encounter math would break down. You can't even drink a potion of healing if you don't have unspent healing surges.
>>96890466The Psion got 1 depending on their specialization too and one specific Druid from Essentials also had fluffy cantrips. You could get a feat to get some on any character with the Dark Sun book. But yes all "caster" Controllers and Leaders should have gotten some fluff cantrips. And the mechanical cantrips Wizard got later like Chameleon Mask and Suggestion should have been Utility Powers instead.>>96891167A level 1 4e Fighter realistically has between 25 and 32 HP. A level 1 Soldier type monster has 28-33 HP and a level 1 Brute has 33-38 HP. You have no idea what you are talking about.
>>96891036I found the modifiers easy to track. It was either 2 or 5, and maybe a flat ability score modifier from a buff. Basically 2 things to remember if they were even in effect.
>>96885732>People always shit on 4eFor good reason.>but at least it gave us cantrips so spell-casters wouldn't be totally worthless at low levelsChrist I hate dealing with people who have no idea what they're talking about. The entire point of magic classes was that it was risk vs reward. You're shit at earlier levels, but once you get up to speed you're amazing. Giving them cantrips gives them a completely different feeling than when they don't, which is why I ban them in 5e.
>>96895797>The entire point of magic classes was that it was risk vs rewardWhat a stupid statement>Giving them cantrips gives them a completely different feeling than when they don'tGameplay wise? No way. It's literally on same level as shooting things with crossbow, maybe little better with scaling. It just feels better!> which is why I ban them in 5e.You can't ban anything because you never play games
>>96887776They're not in 1e core, and if its not core its not real.
>>96891388You said the game didn't have munchkin shit, and then you mentioned a bunch of munchkin in the game. You're the Indian here, clearly.
>>96891036can't even do essence burn+ gungdo gear lol. shit monk
>>96891546>fun memories of the game arbitrarily deciding they stop getting to have funStockholm.
>>96895797No, the point of picking "guy who uses magic" is to be a guy who uses magic. Not a guy who mostly uses a crossbow.
>>96895797>Banning cantrips in 5eSo you don't play games at all.Opinion discarded.
>>96896024Read it again, ESL-kun. Especially the "it's not like" part. Threeaboo really ARE retarded...
>>96895949"Core" is a 3abooism. Look at TSR's tomfoolery.
>>96894155>level 1 Soldier type monster has 28-33 HP and a level 1 Brute has 33-38 HP. You have no idea what you are talking about.So all the orcs at helms deep were Brutes and Soldiers? What's the point of minions then?
>>96896335Minions were an attempt to create enemies that "go down in one hit" without the need to track damage done to them in theory they would have hp equal to the average damage an At-Will would inflict at that level. The idea was that the same monster could be represented as a level 1 Solo, level 5 Elite, level 10 Standard or level 15 Minion depending on the level of the party fighting them.
3egroids really were the worst thing to ever happen to RPGs weren't they
Is this the 4e thread? Neat. Anyone know if there's a good third party content / homebrew site out there?>nobody made 4e content because muh license or whateverPlenty of people made it, just less than 3.5e. I've found a few things here and there but idk if there's a good place to find lots of it compiled together.
>>96896272It's pretty cool that they continued with early editions while publishing later ones. Why alienate part of your target fanbase and potential players for the new one, after all?>>96896032Nah, it's the kind of fun stuff you talk about right after a combat or session is over. "Whew, had to resort to quaterstaff for half that fight".
>>96897492No.
>>96885732Homogenizing classes isn't a good thing. Casters being useless on some turns and turning the tide of battle on other is a feature, not a bug.
>>96897909No, it's bad design, and the alternative is not homogeneity.
>>96897909The problem with that is in 3.x, only badly built casters had "useless turns". You were always strong. All payoff and no risk or cost.If we're talking TSR era D&D, sure, it had a solid divide. But the only WotC D&D to make something good of it was 4e, since both 3.x and 5.x decided to "smooth over" casters with "QoL" that just made them overpowered.4e was a solid, well designed answer to the myriad of issues that plagued 3.x, and the many complaints put against it were just as valid against 3.x as against 4e, if not more so.
>>96885732True, which is why we’ve got a general here and people actually discuss the game Oh wait
>>96898243>board is infested with schizos and bots that immediately shit up any discussion of 4e>le why don't people discuss it? it must be le bad?
>>96897349I don't know if there is a dedicated site but the 4e Discord seems to be the hub of essentially everything 4e and it does have the guy who does the most homebrew stuff. He's also jiggered his stuff into working with the character builder.
>>96896820>The idea was that the same monster could be represented as a level 1 Solo, level 5 Elite, level 10 Standard or level 15 Minion depending on the level of the party fighting them.So if Aragon and friends arrived at the battle of Helms Deep, all the orc minions would suddenly be 15th level to match, and the Rohan army would get btfo? How does that make sense?
>>96899834Because it was a retarded choice of approach to minions. 4e had a lot of shit like this - get some decent idea and then implement it in the most retarded way, and present it to the players and GM in even worse way. Most games that do minions group them in stacks and track their HP per stack, a lot of the time with bonuses on attack depending on stack size. But 4e insistence on grid gameplay gets in the way of that for obvious reasons, it could be worked around but you'd need to invest more effort into rules than just slapping "1 HP" on minions and be done with it.
>>96899834Reading comprehension, retard. An enemy that is a boss to a level 1 party, would be an elite to a level 5 party, which would be a standard rank and file enemy to a level 10 party, and effortless cannon fodder to a level 15 party. The levels are player-relative.
>>96899964>Because it was a retarded choice of approach to minions.If you lack the most basic ability to think, yes.>4e had a lot of shit like this - get some decent idea and then implement it in the most retarded way, and present it to the players and GM in even worse way.Presentation and clarity was by far 4e's greatest strength. If you somehow misread or misunderstood something then you lack basic literacy.>Most games that do minions group them in stacks and track their HP per stack, a lot of the time with bonuses on attack depending on stack size.Functionally speaking that is exactly how they work, other than the tracked HP. When you have 10 orc fodder fitting in to a 4 square area, it's much simpler to track their HP as a set number of hits (as it can be assumed 1 hit = 1 kill) than it is to calculate stack values and variables.You haven't played 4e, you haven't read the 4e books, you are shitposting based on information you heard online. Kill yourself.
>>96900003>Presentation and clarity was by far 4e's greatest strength. If you somehow misread or misunderstood something then you lack basic literacy.Clarity had shit to do with its presentation problems. Layout and language were a much bigger hurdle. It's why people are okayish with 4e mechanics ported to 5e even though the only difference is a more normal language used to describe abilities instead of half a dozen color coded tags. >Functionally speaking that is exactly how they work, other than the tracked HP. When you have 10 orc fodder fitting in to a 4 square area, it's much simpler to track their HP as a set number of hits (as it can be assumed 1 hit = 1 kill) than it is to calculate stack values and variables.As long as you have only characters/NPCs close in level to each other on the field. The moment you need to juggle multiple different power levels on both sides of the conflict shit gets fucked. Yes, you can shake it down to something that works, but its a pain in the ass to do. And in games that don't concentrate solely on dungeon crawling that happens regularly.
>>96899977>>96899964Why not at least use a damage threshold mechanic like 5e uses for ships then?
>>96900106>As long as you have only characters/NPCs close in level to each other on the field. The moment you need to juggle multiple different power levels on both sides of the conflict shit gets fucked. Yes, you can shake it down to something that works, but its a pain in the ass to do. And in games that don't concentrate solely on dungeon crawling that happens regularly.Heaven and Hell for anyone who isn't leveled up. Maybe some characters with healing powers can bring back an under-leveled ally or keep them from dying, but otherwise, that neatly demonstrates how Bilbo got clocked early and easily and had to be told how most of the Battle of Five Armies ended up after he regained consciousness.
>>96899834The game world is built around the PCs and every encounter is a set piece designed to provide an appropriate challenge to the party. The Rohan army would not be modeled at all and just be background NPCs for the purposes of the game, until the battle is over and they're involved in some social challenge.>>96899977>An enemy that is a boss to a level 1 party, would be an elite to a level 5 party, which would be a standard rank and file enemy to a level 10 party, and effortless cannon fodder to a level 15 party.But they would still level up their attack bonuses, saves and damage to be an appropriate challenge. And in exchange forget some of the abilities they had at lower levels because fuck you we're not tracking these for a dozen minions.
>>96898268sorry your game sucks faggot
One thing that always puzzled me about 4th: Why were some powers expressed as "ranged 5" and others as "one target in burst 5 centered on self" or something like that? (I played 4e once and haven't looked inside the books for years.)
>>96901708Ranged attacks trigger attacks of opportunity. Close bursts don't. So a Cleric using Healing Word as a close burst 5, 1 target won't get punched in the face if they are in melee with someone.
>>96885732>>968857534e was fine for what it was(super simple dungeon combat simulator)It lacked a lot of customization options was fairly unbalanced and slow and tossed any idea of non-combat rules out the window though.
People who talk about 4e should be legally required to post proof that they have read the books and played at least one campaign (min. 5 sessions) before posting.The vast majority of """discussion""" about 4e comes from people that can't even answer the most basic questions about how the game works.
>>96902003There is more customization for characters through themes, backgrounds, etc. than 5e in officially printed material compared to 5e. 4e has more non-combat rules support than 5e does
>>96902028But le meme about superheroes and caster weak.
>>96902357This. There were like 30 races to play, something like 20 classes, each class having several subclass choices, hundreds of Paragon Paths, dozens of epic destinies, a few hundred backgrounds, a good number of themes, and THOUSANDS of feats (not counting all of the powers, magic items, and more).
>>96902357>>96902415Accidentally entered my post before finishing.There were also powers keyed to skills, races, feats, deities and more. You had rituals as well. Finally there were whole ass sections of the books dedicated to roleplay insights and how-to's
>>96902028Not being able to hook up enough players to begin with is a game design skill issue
>>96885732Cantrips should not be infinite at-will, as it does not make narrative sense in the context of the universe. It is a concept thought of by ADHD mongoloids and soulless corporate automatons.
>>969020034e fills the same role as heroquest, but heroquest has a gargoyle and the barbarian and a dwarf, while 4e has no miniatures. >>96902415>>96902431>>96902357once you get into the trillions of character options that 5e / 4e has for character creation it stops mattering which has 'more'
>>96902740>the trillions of character options that 4e hasAll those "options" just to make the same fucking characters that all operate in the same fucking way, with no regard for verisimilitude. Abject fucking garbage and not an actual TTRPG.
>>96902740>It lacked a lot of customization options>trillions of character options that 5e / 4eSo which is it? Its lacking or has trillions?
>>96889892>(except instead of a cleanly formatted encounter power that you can use 3 times before a short rest they have to write long paragraphs conveying the same information)I will repeat it as long as it takes people to realize the truth.The real reason 4E got shitcanned is because of this. Just this. 3E only explained mechanics at length, in confusing language, in different phrasing every time the same mechanic came up, and the pages were printed as if you were reading an arcane magic tome. All 4E really did different was make sure all rules are keyworded so they are explained THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME and in a way that is understandable and consistently applied. Then ditch the arcane tome printing on the pages for something clean and unobtrusive. That is why people rebelled. In seeing how DnD's rules actually read, people freaked out. Also people who were honestly tricked by 3E in to doing something more complex than was actually happening. I'm also very sure people didn't realize they were probably playing 3E wrong for years cause they thought similar mechanics were entirely different ones.
>>96886263I can't help feel there is some better way to design a class other than>Most OP mother fucker that exists and can kill with a wrist flick>Or>Most useless wanker who may as well have taken crossbow feats insteadAs it's only two ways of being played.
>>96902723Going to be brutally honest with people.Full casters either need to have free cantrips or be viable in melee or some third mysterious thing. In any case, their spell slots need to be gutted. Hard. Putting all design in to vancian casting is NEVER going to work. It's always going to cause the problem it does. Vancian casting needs to be a very minor part of how a character works for it to not force the entire game to revolve around it. I know vanican casting is cool conceptually. It feels cool. What it does to game design and player mentality is horrendous. It can't be the dominant feature in anything. This long path to hell started when wizards got changed to working that way. The kind of goal we want here is one combat per session and finishing one 'adventure' per session. Characters don't need more than they need to finish that, and anyone with less can be buffed. Doesn't matter how we reach the goal so long as we reach it. The system cannot be designed with combat madness in mind. That's part of what's killing things too. If your DM can't think of anything to do other than 5 combats a session, they need to stop DMing. One combat should be enough to make feel people in danger. Since the cleric doesn't need 20 spells they can all spontaneously convert to heals either. Injuries can be healed, but everyone being injured that session should be a problem. Find some other gimmick, bro. Forcing things to work will never work. It needs to change. It all has to go. The system is rotten to it's core trying to chase an ideal that'll never function.
>>969028144e's math also just worked unlike every other edition, which exposed tons of shitty dms who were used to just handwaving everything.
It was ok, had some great times in it, but I don't miss it at all.
>>96903406I still remember entire threads on /tg/ being mad realizing everything is just die + attribute mod. As if they just realized what playing D20 meant.
>>96902814With you on that 100%. Moreover, 3e with its faux leather covers and parchment pages had a look. 4e changed that look.That's why bitches cry every couple of years with Windows, too. There are literally useful programs from 3.1 inside Win8 (at least). It can't be *that* different...
>>96885732>>96885732D&D5E 2024 SO GODDAMNED SHIT AND GAY, THERE ARE LITERAL REVISIONISTS LIKING 4E AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHVHAHAHAHAHAHAHV
>>96897950NTA, but I would agree with>4e was a solid, well designed answer to the myriad of issues that plagued 3.xRegale us with>the many complaints put against it were just as valid against 3.x as against 4ewhat are the issues that are in both editions?Bonus round: Did 5e address any of these at all?
>>96899964That's swarms. Have you tried playing DnD?
>>96900106>It's why people are okayish with 4e mechanics ported to 5e even though the only difference is a more normal language used to describe abilities instead of half a dozen color coded tags. Which is retarded. I don't want to read "You can use this feature once and regain its use after a short or long rest." a gazillion times when "encounter power" means exactly the same.Also there were three colors for your powers and maybe one color for magic times if you put them on cards. The words directly inside also said what the color meant. It's just objectively good to have something like this.
>>96902814No, 4e got shitcanned because Mearls got in and started internally poisoning it with Essentials.
>>96902003>It lacked a lot of customization optionsWrong. It had so much people paid monthly subs for a database.>was fairly unbalancedWrong. It was so balanced retards like you cry "all classes are the same" to this day. >tossed any idea of non-combat rules out the windowWrong. All characters have skills, PHB1 lists rituals, PHB2 has skill powers, DMG1 has skill challenges.
Anyone Want 6 physical books and a DM Screen for Fourth? ; )
>>96903663I mean there is that, but people were already shitting all over it day one on /tg/ too. I remember the threads vividly, and people were pissed the rules were clear and that the book wasn't designed like their precious ancient tome. Also a lot of people that complained the rules are too simplified in ways that.. reveal they didn't get how 3E worked at all. Which is super funny.Set up for failure from the start. Worse, 5E is just 4E but worse. It has a lot of the same systems done the same way. Just without the keyword system making things easy to cross reference. I find if a thing isn't explained in exactly the same words every time, people often think it's a different thing happening.
>>969036865e is 3e by way of 4e but worse
>>969036865e returned classes and alignment system of 3, which alone is big selling point. If pathfinder in 3e will remove shitty 2e feat based archetype system, I'll start playing it again.Also, it allowed you to solve everything with magic again, removing any real need for rogue and half of other utility feats and potions if you had single wizard, just like back in the 3e.Returned good and lawful good monsters, so GM would feel good about putting them into adventure, because god forbid neutral dragon helping the party instead.
>>96903713The alignment system is pure brainrot in the first place. Also, 4E had classes so I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. 5E is closer to 4E with built in paths rather than tons of unrelated prestige classes that exist that you have to do extra stuff to qualify for.
>>96903799Insofar that the same group of people wrote both books, sure? 5e reminds me of a modern 2e with kits being their subclasses
>>96903840It is just the correct way to design, though. As novel as having 1000 unofficial prestige classes that are all pure garbage with random features that don't help you do things was, a purpose made alternative is better. People romanticize 3E a bit much on a lot of points.That said, I think people should get more used to the fact the thing they are doing should just be reflavored instead. Cause there's only so many variations of >XdY+Z You can squeeze out. Oh but this time we added>Move them once space!How daring and brave. Heroic, even. Trying to make a variance of everything to cover every specific flavor just makes a lukewarm soup of a system. Where you can't just do a specific thing if you haven't had it specifically accounted for. And it's really just same thing as some other thing mechanically anyway. All you really need to know is your damage, your range, your defense, and if your attack has some secondary effect. But people tend to get pissed off when you peel back the layers of greasy nonsense descriptions of everything and show what it's actually doing.
>>96890757Fighters aren't raping reality to fight.
>>96885825Shit I added Martial AoEs in the form of a mechanic called Strikes to my revised/overhauled 5e/2024 martials (barb/Fighter/Paladin, Monk/Ranger/Rogue get maneuvers, fighter gets both ofc) which are just slightly tweaked 4e AoE powers like Whirlwind and whatnot or otherwise based on them. They were a good thing to let martials keep up with casters at later levels, because on paper martials do more damage in practice one AoE is all it takes for a caster to eclipse them.
>>96901765That's...interesting but wouldn't it be easier and clearer to just say "This does not provoke attacks of opportunity"?
>>96904060No.4E used keywords as a system for a reason. The mechanic gets explained to you then quoted the same way every time so you know exactly what it does and when. No misunderstandings, and it's impossible for the writer to forget to mention a specific semantic that may not be obvious to end users. As much as people wailed and screamed about keywords at release, it did make the rules coherent and easy to read. Once you know what a close burst is, you know what all close burst attacks do. And it doesn't need to be explained to you in the text block of every single close burst in the game. Again. At the risk of one having that left out by mistake. Then everyone asks>Well.. all the other ones work that way.. this should too?>Maybe they had a reason.. it's OP?When, no, it's supposed to be the same.It's just better.
>>96903200>The kind of goal we want here is one combat per session and finishing one 'adventure' per session.Holy fuck that sounds unbearably miserable. I'm not fighting the same cunt for eight fucking hours.
>>96904078Are you being real? You're joking, right? That's what you got out of the post?
>>96903580Is this an ironic shitpost?
>>96904060The keyword 'Close' on any ability or attack means it does not provoke when used.>>96904126People are dumb, bro.
>>96890769Yeah man. It's this new thing called making a joke.
>>96904126retard.
>>96902366Those are correct, yeah.
>>96902723It makes just as much sense as any other way of imagining magic.
>>96903200You could just actually balance magic so that the game doesn't fall apart just because you can cast a spell each round.
>>96903686Yes, of course. The idea you communicate is determined by the words you use. If you use different words, you communicate different ideas.
>>96903959Yes, because fighter is the joke class for hazing new players. Do try to keep up, won't you?
>>96904863No. Why would it be?
I use 4e for my Pokémon Mystery Dungeon game. Pretty good.
>>96885732There was nothing terribad about 4e. It just tried to make d&d into tabletop WoW. And people just played WoW instead.
>>96905587How is it tabletop WoW? Like actually specifics and not just spouting an 18 year old meme.
Reminder: >>96902028
WoW edition
>>96905684Post your proof then before you start gatekeep it
>>96885862We aren't talking about 3.X here.
>>96896032I'm not an anti-cantrip person, but it isn't "arbitrary," they burnt their spell slots by their own volition.
>>96905655It isn't, people just meme it over and over, and it is as dumb as the first time it was uttered.
>>96906996There’s nothing worse than when told by the devs that they were heavily inspired by wow that 4e players still deny the similarities
>>96906671Games don't have to have spell slots. We can, in fact, design games well, instead of poorly. I know you're aware of this. Stop pretending to be stupid.
