>here's ur evil empire bro. you won't support them right?
I remember when I was in high school my white woman history teacher described the Ottomans as a "good guy empire"She also said the chinese were better at shipbuilding during the age of exploration because they had those big megaships and gunpowder armies fought in lines solely because its intimidating. I hate the american education system so much
>>97146117righthere's my guy Alex, he's a plucky underdog from greece and he HATES roaches
>>97146148*RELIGIOUSLY TOLERANT good guy empire
I know this is a /pol/-/his/-bait thread, but it's remarkable indeed how I could not come up with anything good about the Ottoman Empire.All empires did conquering and subjugating, but you can also find them doing good for their people, or even subjugated people. Or innovating, advancing, improving the life of their people.The best I can say about the Ottomans is that they allowed for relative religious freedom within their domain and you move relatively freely. One reason for why the ethnicities and religious minorities in the middle-east are so spread out (which results in a lot of conflicts) is because they could previous just go wherever they want.Of course, until the Turks tried some genociding on their on. Poor Armenians
>>97146117>make evil empire for my campaign>my playoids sign up to become janissaries>tfw
>>97146163>I could not come up with anything good about the Ottoman EmpireThanks to them I can call my Balkan friends Turkish rape babies and watch them go hysterical from max cope.
>>97146163turks get the "better than being conquered by mongols" award
>>97146163I did the same thing and opened the thread to try to jog my memory. Came to the same conclusion.What the fuck.
>>97146163>The best I can say about the Ottomans is that they allowed for relative religious freedom within their domain and you move relatively freely.Yeah but they did this basically to breed a non muslim slave class
>>97146148On one hand, you did have a better chance of making a life for yourself in the Ottomans despite your origins for a lot of their history.On the other hand, they made a skull tower. Amongst other things.For some reason the term "Bloody Meritocracy" comes to mind a lot when I think about them. And that's Bloody in the non-slang sense.The depiction of them in Gilliam's Baron Munchausen film I think is a very good fantastical version to draw from. Everything ostentatious and oriental and very violent.
>>97146148At those times it probably was, tough. Not by much, of course.>>97146163>but it's remarkable indeed how I could not come up with anything good about the Ottoman Empire.Relatively open access to power to all freemen (i.e. no nobles), official religious freedom and political control over these/protection over religious minorities (yes, back then it was a better choice than having religious wars), generally better urban administration, first national animal care if you want to add it to the list.
>>97146148>>97146160It's funny how religious tolerance often gets tauted as a charitable characteristic of empires, when it's very much the norm in history. How many actual empires can you think of that really enforced religious compliance? The spanish in certain regions, the mughals under aurangzeb's schizo edicts?
>>97146510>How many actual empires can you think of that really enforced religious compliance?The honest answer to this is that Americans are taught these things about empires because they, themselves, are part of an empire. It's why Americans are also hammered over the head on the importance of "non-violent protests" over bloody revolutions.
>>97146148>gunpowder armies fought in lines solely because its intimidatingTime to put that brain thing into action and see if I can remember some of the actual reasons without looking them up>Cavalry eats small groups of infantry alive but generally does poorly against masses>Keeping a large body of men cohesive and controllable is easier when they're massed together>They didn't just fight in lines, skirmishers and other troops as well as other formations existed>Before radios it's very hard to have smaller groups be self-directed enough to handle objectives (even German Stormtroopers of WW1 required a lot of training to manage this in a localized area)>Armies are sized differently than in ancient or modern times in the gunpowder era. I can't quite figure out how this one connects but I know it does somehow. I'm reminded of reading somewhere that Napoleon would be able to essentially replenish his armies each year with a new crop of men coming of age so maybe that's related>Smoothbores can't aim for shit and rifled muzzleloaders take a while to reload so if you want a high density of fire to achieve accuracy by volume you need many menOther things too. Historylets, how did I do?As for the Chinese, while they did make it to East Africa they didn't get across the Pacific despite having currents and a lack of Argentina which would have made it easier for them than going the other way around like the Euros did. If size is all that matters then the Vassa would have done a bit better methinks.
>>97146510The Spanish really did that as a racial interest thing as Jews were well known as a 5th column element who would literally open the gates if the other side offered them sweet tax collector jobs and the ability to have White slaves.
>>97146510I think it comes down to confusing empires with kingdoms. Most of the Jewish expulsions and Protestant/Catholic purges occurred in pre-imperial states (The HRE was not a real empire by 1500 fuck off)But both generally have monarchical figures which makes it easy to muddle them.
>>97146563>The Spanish really did that as a racial interest thing as Jews were well known as a 5th column element who would literally open the gates if the other side offered them sweet tax collector jobs and the ability to have White slaves.Reading up on the Byzantine-Sassanid War and how the Jews in Jerusalem quite literally did this for the Sassanids. Reading up on history really hammers how the Jews are utterly merciless when they can get away with it.
>>97146510>How many actual empires can you think of that really enforced religious compliance? The Brits/Leafs with Potlatch bans/residential schools While it ends with a parchwork of various tolerances, the 30 years war in the HRE sure killed a lot of folks over religious demands.And then theres the French with their own Wars of Religion and eradicating the Huguenots.While its more recent (and we can argue if the current nation is an "empire" or not), I would also count what the PRC is doing right now with their Muslim minorities
>>97146510Not "empires" per se, but most of the history of crhistian Europe was basically:a) you're gonna be a christian if you want whatever levels of rights your class is gonna have. Hell, even if you have almost no rights, honestly.b) if appliable, OUR type of christian (or at least, be sure not to be something even remotely like a threat to local powers)c) if you're a jew, shit's not gonna be good (consider yourself pretty lucky if your community is not just gonna get expelled over forced money landing)d) if a muslim... nah, you basically won't exist, broI think what people don't get is how a) worked, if anything, but.
>>97146148>I remember when I was in high school my white woman history teacher described the Ottomans as a "good guy empire"They were trying to destroy the west, so obviously they were.>She also said the chinese were better at shipbuilding during the age of exploration because they had those big megashipsArguably true. >and gunpowder armies fought in lines solely because its intimidatingThat one is just flat out wrong. >>97146510That's a very nice way of saying "It was the norm OUTSIDE of Europe. "
>>97146578>Reading up on history really hammers how the Jews are utterly merciless when they can get away with it.As opposed to, what, Europe? Everybody can be ruthless when the chips are down. At least the jews have a actual reasons to hold grudges against Rome.
>>97146163They were good because they opposed the west and human civilization would be a in better place right now if they had won and wiped out Spain and Austria.That's really kind of it though.
>>97146117Did the Ottomans just leave no lasting cultural imprint at all? They had such massive territory, but now that they're gone it seems everyone is eager to put them out of mind as fast as possible. Like a nightmare everyone wants to forget.
>>97146117Hey buddy, the leather club's 3 blocks down>>>/his/
>>97146689>but now that they're gone it seems everyone is eager to put them out of mind as fast as possible.Turkey was an important buffer state for the Americans during the Cold War so they did their fucking hardest to suppress the majority of Ottoman history so people don't think, "wait, why are we helping these freaks?"
>>97146689I mean, so it was with the UK barring the "white" colonies.But anyway, Erdogan plays some "imperial" tune, shall we say- pretty obvious that most people in Iraq or Syria will NOT be nostalgic anyway.
>>97146688bait
>>97146703>>97146689That said, and I forgot to add this before I hint "enter," the Ottomans practically shouldered the entirety of "orientalism" for most of the 18th and 19th century. It's impossible to discuss the Victorian era without also discussing European fascination with the Near East. People really don't like to discuss the Ottoman Empire because the Ottomans were also the "face" of Islam for most of their history, and that didn't settle well with people (especially in the early 2010s) when most of that history was spent enslaving people and being literal orcs in conquest.
>>97146729I really can't see how the ottomans were particulary "orcish" tough, if we compare that to european christianity.
>>97146746>I really can't see how the ottomans were particularly "orcish" toughThe Battle of Vienna was practically the inspiration for the Siege of Minas Tirith, right down to the Polish Winged Hussars showing up at the last second to save the day.
>>97146718>BaitPreventing world war 2 is a inherently noble goal. Sorry. If the good guys had won and vienna was burned to the ground 80 million less people wouldn't have died. >>97146729>and being literal orcs in conquest.Orcs are world war 1 era Germans.
>>97146762That's kinda working in reverse, isn't it? I mean, you don't get your opinions on later Rome on Asimov's Foundation, which was a much more global inspiration.
>>97146762>right down to the Polish Winged Hussars showing up at the last second to save the dayRohan largely DIDN'T save the day. Aragon did.
>>97146772There is probably a logical fallacy named for this, when you blame someone or something for something that happens century after and is only vaguely linked.If there were no Ottomans, we might still have a Byzantine/Greek empire, ergo we wouldn't have an Austrian empire, ergo no WWI and no WWII.Get fucked.
Is being a prison of nations a good thing?Prisoners being in prison is a good thing.It really makes you think about, uh, something.
>>97146818I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying that the ottoman empire killing two of the core pillars of the western world... would have been good, actually. Like, if you want to talk about a classical example of "Fighting for the wrong side". Look at the way Austria and other Germans treated Poland after Vienna. Should have invaded Germany and wiped Austria and Brandenburg off the face of the map, frankly. Would have been better for Poland long term.
>>97146852No, it would not have been good. You would eradicate all good the western world did.Contrary to modern college level knowledge, the western world is a net-positive for the world.
>>97146872>You would eradicate all good the western world did.Yes. Like...Uh...Well... >Contrary to modern college level knowledge, the western world is a net-positive for the world.It's not. It's the great evil whose destruction cannot come quick enough. It was already terminally fucked after the thirty year war and any attempt to save it only made the situation worse.
>>97146772>>97146982The OP is bait, all of your posts are obvious bait.It's not even original bait, you already knew this would work.
>>97146852>>97146818Everything went to shit after the Byzantine-Sassanid War. If the two empires had not punched each other retarded than the Caliphate might have been crushed and contained within Arabia. At the very least, it would have preserved Persia, whose big benefit to being conquered by the Caliphate was... Surviving it, with the Safavids. And then the Byzantine Empire was just a sad story all around, though her death *did* usher the Renaissance, which is cool I guess.
>>97146117Traditional games? Have you played them?
>>97146510wut
>>97146510Persecution of pagans in the late roman empire, european wars of religion with the reformation.I think especially the reformation and the 30 year war is a big factor, since you have the "ottoman tolerance" as a close contemporary.
>>97146510This is actually one of the reasons why great empires turn to shit and are generally not good to live in: an irreligious, tolerant empire is an empire where the rulers become more and more pragmatic and less and less restrained by a single set moral codes and traditions expected by their clients. >>97147153I dislike the ottomans, but I have no strange affection for the byzantine empire either: it was a dysfunctional rotting cosmopolitan mess, and it was an absolute blessing to western Europe that the western roman empire fully collapsed and had no lasting successor of similar power.
>>97147277>but I have no strange affection for the byzantine empire eitherI'm very fond of the Sassanids, though. They were literally a revival of the Old Ways after Persians kinda woke up and realized, "wow, we were really fucking cool before these horse-fuckers conquered us."
>>97146148Ottomans (Turks) get painted in more positive light because for large part otheir history they actively opposed Russia and while europe might not exactly love the roaches, it hates Russians so much more. My enemy's enemy type of situation.Also for a time Ottomans were kinda progressive (woke?), Gordon Byron praised their culture for openly buggering boys while back in England those things had to stay on the down low.He personally met with Ali Pasha, who allegedly pursued him romantically - which might be a blatant lie pushed by Byron to feel more interesting but I have to admit the two would make great "bratty femboy x old ugly bastard" ship.
>>97146510Would you count Soviet Union pushing Marxism-Leninism brand of atheism as the new replacement for any and all religion? They didn't get very far with the efforts because there was always higher "revolutionary" priorities, but construction of new churches was halted for the time and some of the clergymen were prosecuted/jailed/killed.Also how about anglicanism? Sure Henry VIII just wanted that divorce and maybe confiscate wealth from few monasteries while having an ego trip, but things got kinda bloody with some of his successors.
>>97147582You could build churches all you wanted in the Soviet Union, you just weren't going to get a lick of state resources for it because they considered it utterly pointless. Basically if you wanted a church, it had to be an association of people who really wanted a church in some office somewhere.The Soviets were ruthless in keeping people in line and took down anyone who could be a political agitator, and religious figures frequently were included in the latter category. But when it came to enforcing religion, they truly did not need to actually do anything; just closing the flow of money was enough.
>>97147692>you just weren't going to get a lick of state resources for itCoincidentally, the parish fields and pastures from which some income could have been levied just became state resources during regime change and subsequent collectivization, so tough luck.No funding from abroad either because that marks you as potential foreign agent/spy/saboteur.And even when you would get the budget, good luck getting construction materials allocated. Or even just a construction site approved.So yeah, you were not strictly speaking forbidden from building new religious architecture but there were many hurdles to discourage you from trying. There was some state-approved efforts to preserve existing religious architecture though, as long as it could be flexed for propaganda as marvel of socialist engineering, downplaying the part that backwards-thinking people actually wanted to preserve this "utterly pointless" structure in the first place
>>97147809And before someone else points it out, I'm aware Czechoslovakia was technically not member of Soviet Union, just "allied" nation in their sphere of influence.
we've got a turk in the thread everyone.please ignore him, the only reason he isn't (as) inbred is his ancestors fucked a lot of slave girls.
>>97146148The Chinese treasure fleet never existed.
>>97147582I don't see why anyone would count atheism as a replacement for religion, when the rocks, air, and sky are all atheist.
>>97147366Persiaboos are truly the greatestShame about the Islam thing.
>>97147809If the state and the church are separate, should the state fund and support your church instead of literally anything else? Construction materials for churches are better spent in factories, warehouses and houses.
>>97146117Don't do what FF14 did and make the head of La Résistance the most insufferable, annoying, worthless, spineless piece of shit in gaming history and I probably wont.
>>97146314Pretty much this.
>>97148016The question goes deeper.Should state spend on culture at all?And if it does how selective it should be in which segments of culture it supports?Do sacral structures have pure historical and architectural value when separated from religious ideology that built them?
>LE EPIC SABATON POLISH HUSSARS PALAILOGOS TREBIZOND GROB BYZANTIUMS IMPERIALISI don't think I've seen a more redditboomer thread on teegee for a very long time. How intellectually incurious do you have to be to reduce your entire conception of history to decade old stale memes.
>>97148187
>>97148204is this a metaphor for the Italian-Turkish war.
>>97146557Two reasons I can think of you didn't mention were>Men are generally braver when there's a guy immediately next to them>They had been fighting in lines for thousands of years at that point and there had it was a proven tactic
>>97146117No.I'm going to reform Assyria and show those mohammadean posers what a REAL "evil empire" is like.
>>97146117What game?
>>97146367Those "slaves" end up being their ultra elite military units and administrators. It got so good that people willingly sold themselves into slavery to get a foot into the palace door.
>>97148593I figured the first was covered by the cohesive thing but you make a good point about lines in pre-gunpowder eras.
>>97148906This was a coping mechanism for balkanoids left so destitute and miserable, that their boys being forcibly taken as saracen cannon fodder was the "best" option available.
>>97148955Fighting in lines survived well through that. Doubts on its use started in the Boer Wars, and finally died in the Great War.
>>97146163>relative religious freedomThe jizya system, which meant they didn't kill Christians for the same reason the mob doesn't kill people who pay protection money to them (also because they just tended to be the majority in the conquered regions). Their alleged tolerance is incredibly overstated, especially when you also remember it often included restrictions like a prohibition on rebuilding damaged churches. I hate this tolerant Islam meme so much it's unreal.
My campaign kinda has a combination of mongol and ottoman invasion against a balkanized Europe, just general eastern "primitive" (even though they were pretty advanced) and "exotic" empire taking over, and the PCs have to unite those disparate kingdoms to unite against the endless eastern hordes from the endless eastern steppe.
>>97146117All empires are evil empires. They're cool, though, so I'd definitely support them in game but not in real life.
>>971463711.2 million slaves would disagree with you
>>97148906>ultra elite military unitsThe janissaries were brainwashed to become fiercely loyal Muslims, so they didn't have religious freedom, and those respected non-muslim elites were all eunuchs
>>97146117>>97146148... traditional games?
>>97147522Russia was seen as part of Europe up until after WWI.The Ottomans were seen as evil for most of Europes history. They had secular tendencies every now and then which get blown out of proportion by neo libs and boomers love orientalism.Russian hate is a modern phenomenom caused by Russia acting like a shitbull.
>>97149583Russian nobility liked to tour Europe partially to pretend they belong there but mostly as an excuse to not be in Russia. And when they had to go back they tried to bring some fragments of that culture with them. That's the only "part of Europe" Russia was.
>>97149613Western Russia is undeniably European, anon. It doesn't matter how you try to frame it. It is European genetically, linguistically and culturally.
>>97149583>Russia was seen as part of Europe up until after WWI.Except Ruskies themselves were pumping up the whole 'not part of the rotten Europe" since fucking Catherine (who was German, btw)You will never be white, cultured or European, Ivan
>>97146117No sir.There will be no child abduction here.
>>97147366>wow, we were really fucking cool before these horse-fuckers conquered usPersians were horsefuckers.All of them.
>>97150368Fucking horses is the manliest thing you could do.
>>97148906>It got so good that people willingly sold themselves into slavery to get a foot into the palace door.Look at this nigga actually trying to say, "they wanted to be slaves, actually." Yeah, and I bet people "want" to be whores, or "want" to work back-breaking labor. I'm sure there are many professions that pay the bills or even offer you a leg-up in life, but they rot the spirit and leave bitter resentment in the wealth. You could refute this, but the sheer brutality in which Literally Every Christian Region rose up and quite literally (and quite gleefully) slaughtered as many Ottoman Turks as they could get their hands on suggests that maybe those conquered peoples didn't enjoy selling their sons to be soldiers and daughters to be whores.
>>97148964>This was a coping mechanism for balkanoids left so destitute and miserableThere is a joke I recall from here, years ago. It was a Slavic joke, about their treatment under the Ottoman Turk. It went something like,>There was a man and his wife. One day, an Ottoman showed up and said to the man, "I will rape your wife, hold onto my balls so that they do not get dirty." The Ottoman rapes the wife, and leaves. While cleaning herself, the wife sees that her husband is laughing. "Why do you laugh?" She asks, "I was raped!" The man wipes away his tears of joy, and says to her, "while he was raping you, I did not hold his balls! Now they are dirty."The hate that people felt for the Ottoman Turk is incandescent. It's one of the defining characteristics of the Eastern World. They were devils, demons and decadent wastrels. They turned your sons into mindless foot-soldiers and daughters into playthings for oiled nobility. The Ottoman was worse than an overlord, they were a master. They took delight in their domination of Christians and foreigners. They valued Greeks the way one might value a prized dog.The Ottoman was evil, people. Their slow degradation into irrelevancy was marked by raw brutality that saw them make towers of skulls and coin the term genocide. They did not go kindly into the dark. They did things that would damn the religion they worship to further distrust if the West was not so keen to wield them as allies against the very people they whipped. To use an example you Americans might better understand, consider the Lost Cause of the Confederacy or the "noble cavalry against the red savage" and expand that not simply into populist sentiment, but government policy. This is where the West earned their ire of the Slav. This is where the Slav earned their ire of the West. It is the core of the thing.
>>97146314I mean if you submitted to the Mongols and paid the taxes what was the issue.If you fought they slaughtered everyone they could. Mongols also had religious freedom since that's apparently priority number one.
>>97150417>Rose upLol. There was no grand revolt. The ottoman empire was mostly dismantled by Russia. Actual revolts were quickly and violently crushed.So, yes, I can refute it.
>>97146148I remember being taught about the chinese magaships too and it still baffles me why they threw all that away. 5000 years of continuous civilization is kind of a meme but still Europe had to work it's way through the collapse of Rome and the medieval era and then another collapse of Rome before they started exploring and conquering the world. And the chinese had the capability, they sailed to Africa, they brought back giraffes, and then one day they just decided to burn the ships and never do that again
>>97149583Russia has always been Schrödinger's whites. The rest of Europe got their jollies calling them backwards orientals when they were having tough times, but when the rest of Europe needed help, like say, against Napoleon, suddenly they become fellow Europeans. You are correct though that the perception of Russia has gotten so much worse since the Soviet Union popped off.
>>97146523I fuckin' WISH we were an Empire, dude. I wish we did shit like actually conquer lands, systematically crush any who dare to rebel against us, take sniveling foreigners as slaves, and beat the local populace into such submission they all start speaking English. Instead we dick around shithole countries, play cops and robbers with inbred mongoloids for 20 years, and then leave once the companies have made all their money on said colossal waste of time. Unfortunately, America's tenure as Hegemon has been defined by having to deal with the fallout of the British Empire's fuckups, pussyfoot around wars with other major powers because of nukes, and contribute a vast amount of our wealth to ungrateful foreigners who curse us with the same breath in which they ask for our money. The only Americans who benefit from this state of affairs is an ever-dwindling number of rootless rich people who somehow do not comprehend the idea that eventually, short-term gain will blow up in their faces, and that there are people in the world who think in terms besides money. But we are in essence a massive merchant republic. Which means we commit the same retarded boondoggles that say, Venice did. Being imperial is also against the stated founding principles of the country, so if we do try to engage in such things, we always half-ass it.
>>97150467Oh for Christ's sake, the Serbs were just as ass pained over the Austrian occupation and 80 million people died because of it. Fucking angry monkeys.
>>97147582>and some of the clergymen were prosecuted/jailed/killed.Almost all clergy was killed, Anon, if not during 1920's they finished them up during purges in 1930'sStalin literally built a new NKVD-based church impersonating the previous institutionNot that this changed much, Russian Orthodox Church was extremely subservient to the state from the very beginning
>>97151116>Russia has always been Schrödinger's whites.This applies to almost every country in Europe.
>>97151110Thats the issue with the whole god emperor system, everything has to bend their own will, so if they decide theyre bored with something important it just goes away
>>97150467>Ottomans conquered weak Christian kingdoms>built brutal towers of skulls like something you'd find on a 90s metal album>dicked hot slavegirls and had enslaved foreigners fight for themSo what you're saying is, the Ottomans were based as fuck.>>97151185Having an empire takes a fuckton of manpower and long ass supply lines. It's antiquated and fucking retarded. If anything, the US had thus far perfected what empires had been trying to achieve: economic, trade, military and cultural/religious dominance without needing to expend considerable resources and man power.Seriously, only dumb greasy neckbeards like you extol the virtues of empire because you think that "muh territory = power" when the current reality is infinitely superior in every way.
>>97151185>I wish we did shit like actually conquer lands, systematically crush any who dare to rebel against usWhat do you think Manifest Destiny was?
>>97151110I think at THAT time it was a colossal waste of money, or at least the revenues were not really that good. We are children of the industrial-scientific age: for us technical progress is key, even when it's waaaaay on the horizon. Helps us that our "horizon" is changing every 20 years or so.
>>97153488>What do you think Manifest Destiny was?Anon doesn't realize that Manifest Destiny was barely 130 years ago, which is a blip in the historical record. As we're seeing with immigration, it's probably going to return to Mexico within the next 40-50 years.
>>97149644Geographically too, West of the Urals.That mountain range is traditionally considered the official notice that "you are now entering Asia"
>>97146235>Posts on 4chan>Has friendsPick one, future suicide enjoyer.
>>97153448You have been living under a rock if you think the United States has any cultural and religious dominance left. And we're bleeding the economic, trade, and military stuff rapidly. We haven't even been hegemon for a century and we're already falling down the stairs. >>97153488A way to sell the American people on a bog-standard land grab.Allow me to restate for clarity: I wish we actually had an Empire and actually dicked over the rest of the world for our imperial benefit. Because what we actually have done was gut our own nation from the inside out to subsidize nations that hate us.
>>97155420I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that America's foreign policy has actually ever been for the benefit of other nations rather than America.
>>97156437NTA but one reason is probably because the average American doesn't see too much of the benefit in America's foreign policy, which is why they don't think America has a lot of imperial foreign policy. Most of the benefit goes to our ruling class and their lobbies, one way or another. For instance, Halliburton's grants for oil-fields in Iraq during the war on terror and how Dick Cheney likely influenced policy to create that lucrative opportunity for his former company. It's disgustingly greedy and destructive and only a very few elites will see the benefits, while the average American will see very little of it, never mind the sheer destruction other countries end up having to endure for it to happen.
>>97146557Not just density of fire, but firing patterns that could break enemy formations. Centre out, flanks in, 2 or 3 pistol balls at close range in one charge. The formations were instruments>>97146367The Ottomans would also put an ascendant Sultan's brothers to death before coronation to avoid politicking.
Ottoman Empire was evil, but Iike the fashion and architecture.
>>97146163Actually, there is another instance of genocide pre-Armenia, and that's got to do with the extinction of the Egyptian language. The Ottomans basically committed a cultural genocide in Egypt where they killed anyone who spoke Egyptian, and it's said that the Sultan himself would go around into the marketplace and spied on homes to see if anyone was speaking it. Even a mother speaking Egyptian to her child would be jailed.Now that seems like an exaggeration, but it speaks to the level of autistic devotion the Ottomans had to exterminating the Egyptian language. And they succeeded, as Egypt is an Arab speaking country today, which the Ottomans found to be a much easier replacement for Egyptian than Turkish, as Arabs already lived in Egypt in sizable numbers, whereas the Turks were practically nonexistent outside of some administrative posts. So yeah, the reason the descendant language of the pyramid builders is gone is because of the Ottomans.
>>97155420Nah, we had it till about the 80s and we still have cultural dominance but only cause everyone else if fucking up just has hard if not harder. I mean EU killing themselves outside of like Poland and the few nations that aren't letting the 3rd world in no questions asked. China is a paper tiger that only still around cause of America trade so now they have to find a way to not be a parasite of America and live. Don't forget Russia failure in Ukraine. I mean they proved their tech is basically the same if not a little better then their old USSR trash from the cold war. America just need to pull out of being the world police and take 10 years to fix itself and deal with the shit at home and by the time the come back I think half the nations of the world would suck America's dick if the became the empire a lot of the snobby EU nations said we were being. Though half of EU would turn into the middle east unless they do a purge. Though I can see them get a big head attack other nations thinking they can do like they do like they always do after the UN/EU falls and then get reconquestia hard.
you got to give credit to the ottomans, they somehow managed to get the balkans to work together for once and kick them out
>>97157360sadly you gotta thank the british for that
>>97146371>they made a skull towerSo? Our modern "good" empires have institutionalized, industrialized child murder where we grind up dead babies into skincare products and use necrotized dead baby cells as coffee creamer artificial flavor testers. Even if you're not morally against abortion you have to admit that's pretty fucked up
>>97157926Pills, take them
>>97157934Nothing I said was wrong. I don't even like the Ottomans, but a piddly lil skull tower is chump change compared to the manmade horrors of the modern day
>>97157331Coptic still exists and is spoken by, like, 20% of the egyptian population.
>>97157331It was mostly the brutal suppression of the earlier Arab rulers who gradually destroyed the Coptic language. The Ottomans, if they did anything, only dealt the killing blow.>>97157958You're thinking of Egyptian Christianity. The Egyptian branch of the Afro-Asiatic family is extinct.
>>97157331>"The Coptic language massively declined under the hands of Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, as part of his campaigns of religious persecution.">How could the Turks do this!
>>97158027>>97158032The Arabs tried really hard to destroy Persian too, the Shahnameh was written by men desperate to keep their culture alive. Isn’t it funny how that worked? The vast majority of our conception of “glorious Islam” actually stems from the Safavids (Islamized Persians) taking back their lands and continuing what it meant to be Persian.
>>97158056Our conception of glorious Islam doesn't really stem from Shahnameh.
>>97157951They made a test from a half a century old stable cell culture. What they do is drip chemicals on it and see if it reacts the same as it would to known chemicals.
>>97158098The Shahnameh was more my saying that Persians were deeply bitter beneath the Arab yoke and yearned to sustain the traditions they followed for centuries. The Iranian Intermezzo and the empires born from that are what actually gave Islam the “opulence” we know.Which is something we can really say with Christianity too, but that becomes a game of Whataboutism that will lead nowhere good.I’m a thirty-something guy that grew up beneath the “Islam is beautiful” decades following Bush and it’s really embittered me to the religion, especially when Christianity is heavily critiqued.
>>97157926>necrotizedI am under the impression that you like how alarming this word sounds.
>>97158130>Tone-policingI remember this finger-waggling rhetoric in the 2010s, and look where we are now.
>>97158120>it doesn't count because it's CLONED dead baby cells!Lol>>97158130I meant necromanced because it sounds cooler (and is more accurate) but I was typing quickly and an offtopic shitpost thread isn't worth a proofreading. Cute smarmy redditoid post, tho.
>>97158120I find it funny how leftists only discovered Jamiroquai in like the past year or two since black twitter used him for reaction gifs on occasion. I bet you don't even know a song from him outside of virtual insanity, which is in itself a very ironic music video to use as a reaction image whilst denying the gay dystopian cyberhellscape we currently live in.
>>97158254Correct, it doesn't count. There's nothing in that cell culture that makes babies valuable and cherished.Unless you think just having the same DNA is enough, but by that logic, a tumour is precious.
>>97158279Where do you think they got the embryonic cells from, anon?
>>97158279>le clump of cells maymayLul your kind just can't help yourselves
>>97158279How is any of this supposed to save my job from getting replaced by some corporate colonial asshole from India?
>>97155420>culturalI think you need to visit other countries then anon. US culture and media is penetrating deeply into places like Saudi Arabia, India, and China. For fucks sake, Saudi Arabia is hosting UFC, wrestling, NFL, US comedians, singers, actors. How is it not obvious? You may not recognize how US culture is then repurposed or adopted but it sure as shit is going on.>religiousTake a good look at the explosive growth of Evangelist Christianity in South America and Africa. No one else sends missionaries out in such numbers like the US.>>97156781This nigga knows. Anon above doesn’t know this but the wealth of empires ALWAYS ended up in the pockets of royals and the top brass. You never wondered why Victorian England was depicted as utterly dystopian by Dickens and working class children were sent off to factories processing the textiles and resources brought home from the colonies? Where’d you think the goods those kids and pisspoor workers produced got their materials from? That’s empire for you, it’s extractive. The difference is that the US figured that by co-opting friendly nations it could stimulate its economy even better than any empire. It was a “get rich together” scheme and it worked beautifully. The US literally made itself the centre of the global economy after WWII. If you think your situation would be any different under an empire then you are fucking stupid or worse, a disgusting communist who wants things to be different than they were always gonna be.>>97158124This nigga knows his Persian and Islamic history.
>>97158299Nowadays they just grow it from embryonic cells.Back when the technology was very new they used umbilical cords.
>>97158299From the organs of an embryo, which they apparently picked because its cells were not yet fully mature, so they are still receptive to fuckery and are more likely to conveniently keep copy-pasting themselves infinitely in a petri dish.>>97158254>>97158254>(and is more accurate)Not at all. The cells never were dead at any point and never had the ability to talk either.
>>97158316It's literally just a clump of cells.You aren't just a clump of cells because you're a conscious human mind, that is valuable. (Not much, because you're stupid, but still nonzero.)An embryo isn't conscious but it's got a potential to be, and is usually already cherished by the parents.The cells used in the industry and research will never be anything but a piece of tissue.
>>97146148Being a Roman galley slave was apparently better than being George Washington's maid. The job where your legs got sawed off if you pissed enough people off was better than cleaning Washington's unmentionables. The horror, the horror!>>97146160The Ottomans were anything but. If they ran out of Jews in a pogrom, they would work up the ladder starting with Christians and ending with non-Turk Sunnis who were wondering just how the fuck is this whole Empire going to function.
>>97157951Oh no, those poor embryotic KIDNEY cells...Samples you likely couldn't differentiate from some snot I just hacked up.
>>97151110Remember the entire world already belonged to China in the Chinese worldview, even the unknown parts of it. Going out to meet the wider world would have been beneath China's dignity as global overlords. They don't come to you, you go to them. If a country had valuable stuff but was too far away for direct travel or too stubborn to acknowledge Chinese overlordship, then the expectation was that one of China's loyal vassals would go deal with them and bring their stuff back to China as tribute. There were underlying logistical and economic realities undergirding this system; as the biggest population center in that part of the world, China did exert a gravitational pull that effectively drew all valuable trade towards it and made Chinese expeditions outwards unnecessary except in certain limited military situations.
Muttmericans discussing history is always a cringefest.Just look at this retard >>97146163, who actually contradicted himself, yet thought that he had something profound to say.You niggers are way more removed from Europe than both Russians and Turks.
>>97167924Back in the day, killing your child before they could grow up was a sign of deep societal trouble, where it’s a decision between starvation or survival.
>>97157358Is this what most of you negroids believe?No wonder you guys have the largest Indian diaspora on the planet.
>>97146117They had a pretty ridiculously complex and large scale slave trade. Not exactly the best of imperial pasttimes.
>>97146117Normally the Ottomans were more of a real world depiction of almost cartoonish opulence and ostentaciousness where just every single last damn thing from any noble or royal was draped in as much silk and jewels as humanly possible. They also did perform some cartoon villain practices like executing generals that failed to conquer cities. Generally over punishing your own minions is more of a Saturday morning villain type of event. What made them the evil ones in the eyes of the Europeans was the fact that they had a LOT of slave raids on European countries as far as Ireland and Norway. Slave raiders consistently sailed up to unsuspecting Italian, French, and Spanish coastal cities. Beyond that, it's more the fact that their culture remained fairly Medieval in comparison to western European great powers after the 17th century. The Ottomans were viewed as backward and barbaric to Age of Enlightenment Brits, French and Germans.
>>97167697>The Ottomans were anything but.Folks have forgotten that "to tolerate" is not a positive state. It's your ability to put up with something that's well beyond the level of a mere annoyance, like phantom pain from a lost limb.
>>97146578It helps when viewing ALL other groups as beneath them. So why not be opportunistic to the lesser group that promises to pay them better to some capacity?
>>97146510To most Americans the local view of a conquering empire is the Spanish who were intolerant of any native beliefs. They just expand that viewpoint to all empires regardless of era or location.
>>97146637Christian Europe post Rome was a series of belief based conflicts that could give people this idea that empires were firmly religion based and practiced intolerance.>Rome enforced Catholicism on their conquered territories>Catholics enjoy centuries of peerless rule>Enact crusades when muslims conquer Jerusalem>Holy Roman Empire formed in central Europe>Protestant Reformation, more wars>Ottoman encroachment, more wars>Reconquista, Iberia is Catholic again>Spanish conquering of the Americas, smash all other religions there>30 years war in Germany
>>97146689Ottomans were at best just the management in their territories. They were not interested in nation building abroad, just setting up a local governor and taxing it. Or else Greece, Baklans, and Romania would look exactly like modern Turkey an speak Turkish today. But also they were genuinely not liked in any of their territories at all and everyone was happy to throw away just about anything remotely Turkish when the Ottomans left. Also Attaturk and the reformists also wanted to throw away all the old empire nonsense and be a modern nation as well in the 20th century.
>>97172667>killing your child before they could grow up was a sign of deep societal trouble, where it’s a decision between starvation or survival.And sometimes that still is the case; Biggest hypocrisy of the "Pro-life" movement is that they never want to do anything for the welfare of all those children and probably single mothers their stance forces into existence.They just want to slut-shame.
>>97150417>>97150854I don't think anyone rose up as much as the Ottoman Empire just became too damn decadent and useless that it simply fell apart and other nations took pieces of them over a few centuries until they fell back to their own borders.
>>97153448It also helps that the US is one of the very few nations that does not have to keep a significant portion of the military at home to make damn sure every state remains in the union. Most large nations are made up of a lot of smaller regions that will forever consider themselves to be conquered territories that will inevitably declare independence the minute they have the chance. Russia, China, India, Iran, they have to keep a large enough force to ensure all parts of their country remain a part of their country. Even southern states make a lot of independence noise, but remain perfectly within the union and love to join up in the US army and navy with no disloyalties at all while in.
>>97173587I just think that most nations keep their armies at home because that is were armies are supposed to be. You know, for defense and such. The US doesn't need to do that because its first line of defense are two oceans. Also because the US military first objective is to create chaos in the middle east to appease the ZOG.
>>97173499The point isn’t that it’s a “sometimes the case,” it’s that abortion is common. I ultimately agree with you that abortion should be legal and available, but the sheer ubiquity of it now is despairing.
>>97173327>The Ottomans were viewed as backward and barbaric to Age of Enlightenment Brits, French and Germans.That came much later, really. The Enlightenment generally thought that Oriental Despotism was a very good thing and a model to follow as it seemingly lead to iron clad religious tolerance and a working meritocracy.Folks would get why it's a Turk looking down on the English fanatics, in any case.
>>97146852Unless the Ottomans decided to put Poland under new Management too. Seems to be the thing to do.
>>97173327>What made them the evil ones in the eyes of the Europeans was the fact that they had a LOT of slave raids on European countries as far as Ireland and Norway. Slave raiders consistently sailed up to unsuspecting Italian, French, and Spanish coastal cities."You can dish it out, but you just can't take it."
>>97146117>empireOttomans; islamized and turkified populations so much that today they do not look like mongols or central asian turks but all the peoples they islamized and turkified. if they were actual turks they would look like mongols, not even like central asian turks of today.
>>97147522>Ali Pasha, who allegedly pursued him romantically - which might be a blatant lie pushed by Byronno, ali pasha was a super faggot
>>97174262Ali Pasha wasn't even a turk but an albanian and he eventually rebelled against Ottomans. He isn't your standard Ottoman ruler.
>>97146117I'm ready to fight against the evil empire
>>97173686The only European slave raids that come to mind are those of the vikings and the romans, which were in the distant past at the time of the corsairs.
>>97175164>The only European slave raids that come to mind are those of the vikings and the romansHe's talking about the whole triangle trade thing, anon.
