Its not so much wanking as it is just what makes warhammer, warhammer. without chaos you have dumb humans, dumb elves, dumb squats, dumb, everything.

>>97174195
Chaos are just "dumb humans, dumb demons" themselves

>>97174178
In what regard? Balance? Fandom perception? Cause most everyone agrees "the narrative" is a crock to begin with.

>>97174195
Now with dumb spikey boyz?

No, it's the fandom that is wrong.

To elaborate, Warhammer crystallized is supposed to be a picture of Archaon barreling down towards victory, with a back profile shot of the defiant hero standing against the advent of Armageddon.

People don't get that and try to death-battle the image, which no shit works out in Chaos's advantage. Fucking Death Battle.

>>97174255
>which no shit works out in Chaos's advantage. Fucking Death Battle
He got his shit pushed in by an orc and then a vampire, first time around anyway. Archaon wasn't even part of the setting for over a decade.

>>97174266
Then replace with Grimgor, or the 4 Gods for the purposes of the image I'm trying to evoke. Now that you mention it, that Storm of Chaos asspull is an example of actually wanking Chaos off.

>>97174178
>>97174255
The issue is that people mainly like the good guys to win and also like the humans to win because we are humans.
In all Warhammer settings the people behind the games stray away from this paradigm which causes conflict with their audience that mainly just wants cool good guys winning.
These conflicting forces cause overcompensation.

>>97174291
Depends on the guys. Rick Priestley at least had a more optimistic view on the Emperor and Sigmar (they were genuinely good divine spirits). It's really in the last 20-odd years that it's taken a swerve to everything being unending blood shit and misery where the good guys are even worse than the bad guys.

>>97174178
Post models.

>>97174178
traditional games? use the general

>>97174278
That anon got it right. Archaeon's supposedly indomitable campaign of slaughter went over like a lead balloon, and the fact that Gee Dubs had to repeatedly bail him and his forces out to get their climactic battle is why people feel they were wanked.

Like ffs Teclis obliterated an entire section of the dude's army with one single spell. Grimgor punting Archaeon in the balls and then sending him head over tea kettle afterwards was just the epilogue to a campaign of humiliation, and that's inspite of Chaos supposedly causing enough harm to fracture the Empire.

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I think it's neat that Tome of Corruption, which is very heavy on wanking Chaos as being the biggest and bestest thing ever, also says that without Mankind specifically it'd basically be powerless. Some other sources say the same. The chaoswank isn't so intolerable if you consider that it's just a creation of mortal life. It's only powerful because people are shitty, which would mean that if people weren't so shitty Chaos would be much weaker.

>>97174178
No, not at all. There exist no chaos wank.

>>97174255
The History of Warhammer is literally built upon previous 'Chosen' who then failed and were turned to Spawn by the gods for their failures. The 'laughing gods' are laughing at EVERYONE, including their own followers.

>>97174517
Storm of Chaos was probably the best example of chaoswanking, specifically with how it ended. Archaon loses and runs away, despite being surrounded. He doesn't get finished off by Grimgor, Luthor, Volkmar, Karl, or Mannfred. He doesn't get mutinied by his own men despite their campaign collapsing in record time. He doesn't get spawnified either. He just without any explanation gets off scot free not once but twice in a row.

>>97174647
Wonder how things would have gone had they not done their own reinterpretation of Storm of Chaos for End Times.

>>97174291
The odds gotta be stacked against the good guys to make the wins worth anything.

>>97174178

No, it doesn't exist. Marine/Emperor wank is the only problem.

Why are the people who make these threads either lorelets or baiters?

>>97174387
>>97174278
You guys never played SoC. You are making stuff up and lying.
Grimgor, for example, didn't come from Archaon. He only saved Valten's life and screw off.

Mannfred is the one who defeated Archaon's army after Karl Franz pushed them from the city walls.
Your brains run on memes.

>>97174928
>The sounds of guttural war cries resounded around the Lord of the End Times, along with the shouts of his warriors. Regaining his feet, Archaon turned as another figure appeared in front of him.

>A green-skinned forehead slammed into Archaon's helmeted face as Grimgor made his presence felt. Behind him, his 'Ardboyz fought against the heavily armoured warriors of the Swords of Chaos. The Orcs had fought their way through Valten's followers to reach the Everchosen. With Middenheim beyond anyone's grasp now, there was only one way left for Grimgor to prove himself to Gork. Grimgor hefted Gitsnik in both hands, swung it in a wide arc, sheared the bottom from Archaon's shield, and sent the Everchosen sprawling backward.

>Once more, the Slayer of Kings flicked out, but Grimgor had expected the counter-attack and parried with the hilt of his magical axe. The Black Orc Warlord brought his booted foot down hard onto the arm of Archaon and knocked the Daemonic blade from his grasp. Using the flat of Gitsnik, Grimgor battered Archaon across the head twice and then placed the tip of the blade on the Everchosen's throat. The Black Orc pulled back his head and roared into the leaden sky. "Grimgor izz da best!"

>A great cheer went up from the Orcs, a deafening chant of Grimgor's name that echoed over the clash of fighting. Grimgor raised Gitsnik above his head, roared again, and pumped his fist in the air. Having proven his point, the warlord turned south with his barbaric horde. Their cheers of victory were heard long after they disappeared from sight.

>Only a few thousand troops afterwards
>No further mention of Archaon
So, like it was said, Grimgor basically broke the back of the Chaos invasion by ganking Archaon, who presumably proceeded to crawl away with his tail between his legs. Yeah.

>>97175013
It's crazy how there's literally no mention of how Archaon escaped that time or the next, just "Grimgor proved his point" and I guess we're supposed to assume Volky or Karl or Mannfred forgot he existed.

Big part of SoC's problem was they tried to cram in fanservice for every single faction so it comes off as incredibly disjointed and weird.
>archaon loses but he gets away as a consolation to chaos players
>orcs had a string of wins so an orc army just shows up out of nowhere then disappears
>vampcounts had a string of wins so a vampire army just shows up out of nowhere then disappears
>volkmar is back and beats up demons barehanded as a consolation to empire players

Had Lizardmen gotten up to #5 or so we would've literally had
>And then t-rexes came out of the woods and ate the Swords of Chaos and then disappeared

>>97175124
Do chaos players even like Archaon? I have a chaos army and I don't like him at all. I dislike the very notion of there even being an Everchosen. Archaon should have died or been turned into a chaos spawn for his failures. That's what would have happened to any other chaos lord who fucked up as bad as he did.

>>97174928
I said nothing to that effect except “oh yeah, SoC. That actually was chaoswank”. And I stand by that, and that applies to Manny Mo too. We were told narrative impact, they won games, and got…>>97175013 >>97175089
. If that’s not fudging a Chaos outcome the track record didn’t warrant, may I be mutated into spawn

>>97175142
>Do chaos players even like Archaon?
I don't think anyone outside of Archaon's writers like Archaon.

>>97175013
You lying piece of shit. Post the text before and after or I will.

>>97175089
>>97175142
Frankly, if it wasn't later mentioned in like I think one of the rpg books that he escaped, it'd be easy to imagine just from the wording Grimgor decapitated Archaon then and there. It'd be very weird to consider that Grimgor would shove Gitsnik to someone's throat and then NOT snikt them, but then that entire ending was weird.

>>97175245
>it'd be easy to imagine just from the wording Grimgor decapitated Archaon then and there
That'd have been the logical outcome, if not that then either Luthor Huss (who was nearby) or Volkmar (also nearby) came up and did it, but that doesn't happen either. Archaon and his army get away, go all the way south to some bumfuck village, get cornered again, get wiped out by vampires, and then Archaon escapes YET AGAIN.

>>97175160
Don't pretend you played the campaign.
You are getting awfully wrong.

>>97175244
>lying
>direct quote from the text
Cope.

>>97174278
>that Storm of Chaos asspull is an example of actually wanking Chaos off.
>>97174387
>the fact that Gee Dubs had to repeatedly bail him and his forces out to get their climactic battle is why people feel they were wanked.
You're misremembering SoC. If you came to 4chan as a teen when it was culturally relevant you were young for SoC and probably didn't understand how it was set up. If you're younger, you're getting second hand info from this type of guy, and many of them didn't play and many of them are pathetic autistic fags with victimhood fetishes so severe they're even seeking out being oppression from people that write Warhammer fluff.

GW were actually very clear that the campaign was on rails, the finale was always going to be the siege of Middenheim, the result of that was determined by the campaign performance.

>>97174647
Except everyone gets blueballed because there's no consequences for anyone. Nobody dies, at least not in a way where they can't return; Valten's "assassination" is actually very ambiguous and uncertain.
>>97175124
This.
I'm a 35 year old boomer and a VC player in that campaign and I was left going WTF.
Clumsy writing, but also probably not just Gav Thorpe's fault. Looking at the big picture (which victim fetishists and """loretube""" consumers refuse to do) Andy Chambers was not allowed to develop the consequences of the Chaos victory in Eye of Terror. There seems to be a policy change between the long build up and execution of these large narrative campaigns. The next 40k campaign was Medusa V, a single pissant planet where nothing really that interesting happened. The timeline was rolled back pre-EoT the next edition and wasn't used again until it was used as inspiration for 40k's own soft End Times.

>>97175253
Said the moron, omitting the parts that prove what I said. Grimgor did not do shit to Archaon's army.

>>97175264
>GW were actually very clear that the campaign was on rails, the finale was always going to be the siege of Middenheim, the result of that was determined by the campaign performance.
That's the part where the wanking starts. What should've been a decisive loss for Chaos becomes an ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny clusterfuck where everybody from Archaon to Mannfred teleports all over the place and the end is a status quo.

>>97175264
On End Times, it does seem looking at the writing and how it changes, the model releases, that it was a sincere attempt to perform CPR on a game and setting about a decade of compounding shitty decision making had killed, until partway through when somebody high up decided to just kill it off.

Nogames faggots obsessed with the fluff and turning the setting into a story can't or won't look at End Times within the context of the business decision. Without GW shitting the bed, driving off WFB players and stymying new blood, the """"inevitable""""" victory of Chaos would have been at some point in the distant future, just like how every disorder faction in 40k (not just Chaos) has its own victory condition that's never going to happen. "Chaoswank" isn't real, the threat of Chaos is just thematic windowdressing that also explains blue-on-blue battles.

>>97174291
I, for one, kibitz Grungni's boys.
>>97174360
>>97174319
Fuck off from this board.

>>97175264
For what it's worth, I did try to track down the specific issue of White Dwarf detailing how they fluffed out the campaign ending so that I wasn't talking out my ass entirely.

>>97175284
>Tries to put words into someone else's mouth to compensate for their embarrassment
I said what I said, that Grimgor beat the shit out of Archaon out of absolutely nowhere. I didn't make any other claim for the fact that he does just fucking appear out of nowhere just to gank Archaon before fucking off from the rest of the fluffed ending.

>>97175296
I remember how several ET fluff pieces set up possibilities for Chaos to lose, like Taal awakening and being mad as fuck at Nurgle, or the Wood Elves cooking up a scheme, but those got forgotten about so Chaos armies could teleport to all the big Empire cities and destroy them while the Skaven took over the entire world in the span of a paragraph.

The whole thing was autistic but up until the very end it didn't seem like they intended to totally nuke WFB, but I guess when it did perform well that's why they seem to immediately give up.

>>97175290
Wrong. The faction that scored the best in the campaign automatically wins when Archaon's horde reaches the city. That's the rule of the campaign that players agreed to play in.

The VC and Empire won so GW wrote the final battle going in their favor.

The only wank was Orc wank because the Orcs scoed lower than Chaos and shouldn't have been there

>>97175301
You can't even read your own posts? Why aren't you posting the rest of the text?

>>97175307
>Wrong. The faction that scored the best in the campaign automatically wins when Archaon's horde reaches the city. That's the rule of the campaign that players agreed to play in.
Which is what I said. Chaos doesn't get truly beaten, it's a very let-downer ending.

>>97175311
You said you were the one who wanted to quote how Archaon was super busy ripping Valten's balls off him and slapping Luthor Huss around silly before Grimgor came, kicked his ass, then inexplicably left, before everyone else just limped off the battlefield. And you were so insistent on it, so I'm letting you do it.

>>97175264
I think the only actual consequence of EoT that lasted into 'prime' canon was the Forge world Mordax getting overun by Orks and renamed 'Moredakka', as seen in upon a galaxy map in the Adeptus Mechanicus Codex released a decade after the event.

>>97175338
No. I said that he saved Valten's life by beating a worn Archaon.
Mannfred and Karl are what defeated the Chaos Horde.
What I was contesting is how much emphasis you are putting on the Grimgor bit.

>>97175290
That's exactly the sort of victim fetishist shit I'm talking about. There's a huge amount of context you're ignoring so you can spin a lame ending where they pulled back, were probably forced to, from having any consequences for any major special characters.
There were zero consequences for the Imperium from EoT until 8th, which retconned a bunch of shit also where it's basically a new take on the same event. If Chaos won SoC nothing would happen either, just like in 40k.

>>97175334
>it's a very let-downer ending.
For absolutely everyone involved.

>>97175358
Yeah, cause that's the last time Archaon was mentioned in the actual after-action report. Like, what else did you want me to point out? How Teclis just fucking one-shots all the daemons hanging out with Archaon, and then also fucks off from the narrative? How the Von Carsteins just show up at the last second to pick off the few thousand survivors before, too, fucking off entirely? How it was implied that the entire goddamn final battle involved Boris Toddbringer and Khazarak One-Eye playing a game of Tom and Jerry while their allies were dying like rats? Should I point out that fucking Grimgor shows up right out of the woods to rip Valten and Luthor Huss's army to shreds, which only makes them shrug their shoulders and leave them to hold back Grimgor by themselves because they're too busy personally hunting down Archaon? What else do you need, you baby?

>>97175380
Two wrongs don't make a right.

>>97175380
>If Chaos won SoC nothing would happen either
Eh, they'd probably have sold some "empire divided" armies and depicted Archaon's forces as the new focal point big villain to beat beyond Storm of Chaos, probably. It was pretty evident that they only initiated the entire thing to involve smashing the Empire to up the stakes on the whole "world is potentially ending" bit.

>>97175431
NTA. The other anon is right. Much as EoT amounted to nothing, even with Chaos winning. SoC would have amounted to nothing even if Chaos won.
GW did not want to change the status quo and advance the setting in either fantasy and 40K. They were only forced to advance the setting in WF and 40K adecade later because of bad sales.

>>97175425
>Two wrongs don't make a right.
Two contradictory wrongs don't make for le chaoswank either.
I never even implied anything like "two wrongs make a right". There is absolutely no way an honest reading of my post could come across as defending GW. I used words like "blueballed" "lame" to describe the "clumsy writing" of SoC's conclusion. You're twisting my words and intent because you want to feel victimised like me just like you want to feel victimised by the outcome of a campaign that happened literally decades ago. It's sad and pathetic to the point I feel real contempt towards you weird fucking losers.

Chaos doesn't "win" in ToW's time period, Disorder doesn't "win" WFB until The End Times which has an outcome obviously driven by business decisions and as such is easily ignored by players and doesn't affect oldhammer of either game. Like I said "chaoswank" isn't real no matter how desperately you cringetards want to be oppressed. If it was, Chambers might have been greenlit to do some interesting stuff with the EoT results.

>>97175595
>Like I said "chaoswank" isn't real
The End Times was chaoswank even if it was driven by business decisions. Chaos got wanked off hard to make it instawin. AoS is also full of it.

I agree with you in general but I disagree that chaoswank doesn't exist. It does, just what's often pointed out as chaoswank (Storm of Chaos ending) isn't chaoswank.

>>97174178
Modern GW has realized Chaos is an NPC faction and they exist as stage dressing just so the factions people actually like can win. This is particularly noticeable in 40k.

>>97174360
Generals are cancer like you.

>>97175637
>The End Times was chaoswank even if it was driven by business decisions.
There was a bunch of other shit being set up that appears to be before they decided to axe the entire game in fairly quick order. Even then the reddit rats play a big part.
>AoS is also full of it.
AoS is the ultimate zero consequence setting where no matter what happens nothing ever changes.

>>97176009
>AoS is the ultimate zero consequence setting where no matter what happens nothing ever changes.
but enough about warhammer

>>97176009
>>97176016
Ironically as a relative outside to the whole affair from what I have seen the issue with he Storm of Chaos Campaign could of been easily resolved if GW decided to have the goal of the campaign not be a siege of Middenhiem but instead of Salzenmund.
That way you can conceivably have Chaos show up there even if they get rolled by the other factions, just contextualize as instead of being a march through the empire, into breaking open the northern flank.
If Chaos wins? The empire suffers a dark day and its more central provinces are now open seasons for chaos marauders and at risk in future campaigns.
If Chaos loses? The spot on which the final battle takes place is actually reasonable.
Yeah it loses some of that fate of everything gravitas but having that in your wargame is just generally a bad idea to do in a wargame as a singular moment.

>>97175936
>NPC faction
but enough about the Imperium.

>>97175299
Why are nogames nomodels secondaries always so agressive and rude?