Can your party be trusted around surrendering enemies without committing even a single war crime?
Of course, if they're cute females they're well treated.Sadly, if they're cute males there's no more option than to rape them.
No.
I never met an enemy that could properly surrender without committing a warcrime.
>>97294608How do you surrender and commit a warcrime at the same time?
>>97294619a false surrender is a warcrime, neatly bundling both in a single action
>>97294619Attacking the cleric
>>97294582Does headpats count as a war crime?
>>97294582>Can your party be trusted around surrendering enemies without committing even a single war crime?>surrenduring enemiesAnon enemies don't surrender unless they've got information we want and then they get "interrogated" by command. It's hard for buildings cleared with explosives to surrender but we're not strictly opposed to it. Mostly why would we let Jerry get the chance?
>>97295247What are you playing, Touhou?
>>97295247Petting a captive is context-dependent grey area, it might or might not qualify as "outrage upon personal dignity, a particularly humiliating or degrading treatment."
>>97294582It's a fine line.
>>97294582Can you go content farm somewhere else neckbeardia?
>>97294582Of course they can! After all, how can there be war crimes if there isn't a war?
>>97294630That's not a "proper" surrender then, is it sparky?
>>97295517>a fucking sketched manga strip breaking the fourth wall, in the most disgusting way possible, to affirm a joke, like saying "haha isn't my joke funny?"I tasted a bit of barf
>>97295642Oh no welcome to Japanese comedy I guess, newfriend
>>97294582Can you play red light-green light with surrender?Like you go and say "I surrender", they take you to the camp, and you see a gun and jump to it, actively engaging in combat again, and when the enemy sees you and raises guns, you go "I surrender!!", and you get closer to the gun step by step yelling "I surrender" every time the enemy tries to shoot youAnd then you get the gun when they aren't looking, you shoot really fast and kill one soldier and drop the gun "I surrender!"
>>97295473What if they're a dog girl and they verbally object while wagging their tail with pleasure?
>>97295642>breaking the fourth wallI don't think you know what that means
>>97295674I don't think YOU know what it means
>>97295691What is actually the fourth wall break here? They're just doing an unusual ending to break your expectations.Is a "chicken cross the road" joke breaking the fourth wall because the funniness is supposed to be in the unexpected answer?
>>97295698The girl looks into the "camera" at the end.
>>97295705It's a common visual shorthand for "huh?"
>>97295710yeah, one that breaks the fourth wall.
>>97295710That's breaking the fourth wall. Do you not know what the fourth wall is?
>>97295698Just as I thought, YOU don't know what it meansIt's ok
>>97295698>>97295710Retard.
>>97294582War Crimes only exist in the context of a mutually recognized procedure of warfare.My setting has no such thing.Chivalry?Maybe.But the notion of a "War-Crime" is foreign to the dark-ages fantasy settings I inhabit.
>>97295517Here, I made it a bit more blatant in case someone missed the joke, I think now it looks more clear
>>97294582>>97295772To add to the thing about war crimes not being a thing in the middle ages (which sorta, at least one knight was Peter von Hagenbach was convicted of what we would now consider war crimes, but it was certainly not a common thing before the modern era). The modern understanding of war crimes is treaty based, sovereign states get together and decide a few no-nos in war. Unless the adventurers are in a war scenario between sovereign states it is unlikely any 'gentlemanly conduct of war' treaties are gonna be in effect on their day to day operations.War crimes must be tried by a court to which the defendant must submit or be forced to submit. The US for example doesn't recognize the ICC - so cannot be tried (as a state) there and the American Service Member Protection Act authorises the President to us military strikes on any ICC facility should US soldiers be held by that court.Extra-state actors (aka adventuring parties) can be convicted of war crimes but they are technically Violent Non-State Actors under international law and thus are only legally bound to obey Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions (aka the don't be a dick clause). In theory though any human groups they fight against would be subject to the protections of Article IV if they are non-combatants.Adventurers could be classified as unprivileged combatants if they are taking payment (as mercenaries) but their typical enemies (bandits, orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc.) would likely more properly classified as unlawful combatants and thus exempt from the protections of Article III and Article IV.>>97295658Legally this would probably count as perfidy and would get you shot.
>>97294619Well, for example, if you're caught in the act of perfidy and surrender, your captor is not obligated to accept your surrender and may summarily execute you.
>>97294582Would you rather do a warcrime or suffer a warcrime?
>>97295980You seem well versed in this stuff, what's your opinion on>>97295247>>97295473?
>>97295642I agree, it should have been a spammed puckee commission accompanied by a question like "how does your setting handle tying up sweater sleeves" asked with no intention of answering anyone or providing his own thoughts whatsoever.Something created with one's own hand with the intent of evoking actual thoughts doesn't belong here.
>>97294582Depends on the surrendering enemy in question, our current situation and our goal in question
My Conan group that was all male and mostly ex-military guys wanted to hack up every fallen enemy to take trophies and make sure they were actually dead. My Coriolis group was half women and they often spared/questioned/released enemies I assumed they'd slaughter. Anyways, I try not to get annoyed by bloodthirsty antics even though it's annoying. I think for a lot of players a big part of the appeal of RPGs is that you don't have to make the mistakes that media characters make. You can choose to distrust the random sketchy guy who just showed up or keep hitting the fallen slasher to make sure he isn't just stunned. I do try to put the kibosh on players wanting to hunt down every fleeing minion like pitbulls on meth. I'll stress that we don't have time for that and if they persist they'll be led into a pit trap or another ambush.
>>97294582>checks notes >carcossa game >fantasy wars of religion game >grim dark space battles game Not looking good chief. >>97295517>>97295787lolThis is an ancient meme too, glad its still gettingaction.
>>97294582All my characters hate Gnolls and will go out of their way to kill them. The only good Gnoll is a dead Gnoll.
>>97294582I think the term war crime has been watered down in recent times to near meaninglessness
>>97298932Nah, war crimes are still war crimes. Like invading another country purely to steal its oil reserves.
>>97296249>My Conan group that was all male and mostly ex-military guys wanted to hack up every fallen enemy to take trophies Had two players like that in one group years ago. One of them was genuine psycho, even his IRL stance on mercenaries was "great, I have the excuse to legally kill them no matter what". Guy was a serial spouse abuser too lol. Funniest thing was that he hadn't seen any actual IRL combat (back then, idk today), but had a murderboner for hypothetically killing people within legal context.
>>97299020Come on now, they have gold reserves too you know
>>97295722>>97295739>>97295760There's not even anything disgusting about it. Honestly the complaint is just weird.
>>97294582I looked it up and apparently it is a war crime to steal the personal property of a surrendered soldier. >>97295980However after consulting the section this anon mentioned it sounds like theft of property isnt covered by it so maybe
>>97299316This also raises the broader question of if you even have an equivalent of the Geneva convention in your setting and if so do your characters know about and abide by it.Like of there wasnt a written law there might still be a generally recognized honor system or code of chivalry that naturally emerges.
>>97299371>all of them led their countries into ruinWhat leads a man to commiting war crimes is a Jewish plot. It is the furthering of the goal to see the West undermined.
>>97294582Well, I can only speak for myself: I would confiscate everything they have, bar mundane clothings, put them in shackles and restrict their diet to water, porridge and bread with 1 8oz slice of meat/fish every 3 days.If they behave well, on a period of Sunday to the next Sunday, they get to have a cup of tea with sugar and the right to pray to their God, should they have one. No use of holy symbols though because of obvious reasons.That's how I would run a jail/oubliette.
>>97295642its old 4chan stuff dude, its site culture, lurkmoar or gtfo
>>97294588>Party paladin keeps several dresses in storage>Captured ladies have to be properly dressed after all
>>97299536The Albigensian Crusade was a completely success, the Nationalists won in the Spanish Civil War, Pinochet died without being convicted and with Chile intact, while Pete and Vance just helped oversee an ACTUAL special military operation that saw a foreign dictatorship fall in less than 10 minutes.I guess you got the Axis losers right at least? Lol
>>97299536Nice try rabbi but everyone knows since war crimes are defined by the courts and the courts are full of lawyers and all the best lawyers are Jewish, war crimes by definition are a Jewish trick ergo the actions which have been termed as war crimes are normal but their definition as such is just Jewish trickery.
>>97299371Was kind of cool till you got to Hegseth
>>97299371>Ascribing any value whatsoever to the words of Heinrich HimmlerThat little pussy lived and died like a rat, up to and including eating poison.
One woman operator on her own can't risk taking male prisoners that could try to surprise and overpower her. Therefore no prisoners.
>>97299590>saw a foreign dictatorship fallAnon I...
>>97294619As other said, surrender with intent to escape or getting close to attack. Also on the line is attempting to get me to approach and capture you instead of you coming to me. Even negotiating, either in earnest or as a stalling tactic, is not of itself surrender, and you are still a valid target. There are no fuck-fuck games in surrender; either you are placing yourself wholly under my power, or you are getting shot.
>>97295787Is the joke that she's disappointed?
>>97299844The joke is that it's clearly a setup for your rape fantasy, but the faceless goons only tied up her sleeves, a nuisance at best, before leaving.
>>97294619Perfidy, you retard.
>>97296129IRL? Would probably count as somewhere between sexual assault and outraging dignity. In one of my games I'd count it as redditfaggotry of the highest order and the whole pantheon of gods would unite to smite the perpetrator. >>97299316So theft of property by the military is covered in the Hague Conventions and again under pillage in the Article IV parts of the Geneva Convention.In regards to the personal property of a lawful combatant the war booty clause (Article 18 Geneva Conventions III) specifically exempts personal property, money, and sentimental items (and protective gear) from being claimed as war booty. This also means they get to keep their horses, rank insignia and medals.Detaining Powers are allowed (at the discretion of someone of officer rank) to for the purposes of security to remove personal items as long as they are recorded and returned.
>>97299327In my earlier post I mentioned Peter von Hagenbach who was tried and found guilty in 1474 for a series of murders and rapes caused by his soldiers.While rape and murder were not exactly uncommon in the Holy Roman Empire's wars at the time it was agreed by the tribunal the HRE put up to try von Hagenbach that his men had gone too far so he was executed.I'd suggest that many times throughout history there's been cases of soldiers and commanders who were killed either during or after a conflict for going too far without necessarily having (or in the modern era) waiting for the formalities of a war crimes trial.In rpg terms if a party gets a rep for committing acts that go beyond the pale - particularly if it causes problems their own side might put them down just to avoid having to deal with the issues. For most of history the general idea has been that if you don't act like a dick to your prisoners the other guy will have less reason to act like a dick to yours. If a party routinely kills prisoners/surrendered combatants or raids villages etc. Their enemies will likely not grant them any quarter when/if they attempt surrender and will go and burn down villages in the lands the party hails from.Social class of course plays a part of this - lords, knights and wealthy freemen can be ransomed for cash so it's worth taking them alive and seeing that they are reasonably well treated. I'd expect this to be the same in most elf-games, knights, nobles, commanders, mid to high level adventurers (assuming they're not carrying all their wealth on their person) would probably ransom each other as much as possible (conflict is expensive after all) - peasants and low level adventuring types on the other hand (particularly in pre-enlightenment eras) probably have much less protections
>>97294634I'm pretty sure that if cleric, wearing uniform of designated healer, takes any active combat action other than helping the injured, he's the one violating rules of polite warfare and opens himself up for retaliation.
>>97295247Are you making it weird when you do it?
>my party
>Nobody has posted this one yet
>>97299844>>97299996I don't get it. Did they not tie the sleeves tight enough?
>>97303111that's more of a classic "elf slave what do" rather than PoW (mis)treatment
Star Wars campaign, they started as mercenaries but eventually joined the rebellion. They try to show mercy and follow the rules of war towards Imperials. Though they show little mercy to gangsters and other criminals.
>>97303340>Soi Faggots campaignGross, have some self respect
>>97303340What rules of war exist in Star Wars?Clone Wars certainly broke any potential ones I know of.
>>97295667Friendly reminder that all dog girls (even the FLAT ones) are by default good girls and deserving of humane treatment.
>>97299584It's shit culture then. Improve your taste.
>>97296173No one in this thread created that image, and it was not posted to evoke anything, least of all discussion.
>>97302909>gets executed after surrendering to slavs
>>97305081That opens whole another can of worms, giving one group of captives preferential treatment because of their race is a bad conduct. Either all the girls get the same humane treatmen, even the bitchy ones, or none of them do.
>>97294582I'm going to ask a stupid question.When it comes to, say, orcs - Can you even accept their surrender? Orcs don't ransom other orcs and are evil as fuck.Do you just lock them up forever?
>>97305755>even the bitchy onesIt was specifically the bitches he thought should be treated well, and that because of their behaviour.
>>97305796Alright, soldier, you've just earned yourself one week in a punishment hut, and that because of your behavior.
>>97305763>Orcs don't ransom other orcsSays who? Since when?
>>97305834That's what I'm asking. Lord of the Rings orcs don't ransom orcs. Warhammer orcs absolutely do not.I (off the top of my head) don't recall the big gaming settings have orcs doing ransoms or prisoner exchanges.For novels, the First Law shanka, Second Apocalypse Sranc, Dragonlance Draconians and other orc-adjacents don't seem to do this either. Neither do Trollocs / Myrdaal.
>>97305853>I (off the top of my head) don't recall the big gaming settings have orcs doing ransoms or prisoner exchanges.Warcraft?
>>97305866Shit, I completely forgot about that, by bad. Warcraft, then.
>>97294582My setting doesn't include Geneva, and as a Canadian, I am predisposed to war crimes.
War crimes aren't necessarily bound to modern definition.Achilles mistreating dead body of Hector (instead of giving it back to Trojans for proper burial, as would be the custom) was basically act so foul it turned gods against him.
>>97305563>evendoe they didn't get captured
>>97304026Killing prisoners is frowned upon
>>97300560>In regards to the personal property of a lawful combatant the war booty clause (Article 18 Geneva Conventions III) specifically exempts personal property, money, and sentimental items (and protective gear) from being claimed as war booty.Would an ear be counted as a sentimental item?
>>97294582Of course they can, after I educate the surrendered on what "Perfidy" is and the consequences faced by those engaged "Espionage" while polishing my sword. That said, war crimes aren't exactly "encoded" in anything beyond "Gentleman's agreements" and "Basic decency" (and it's strongly implied that it will bring the ill gaze of the gods of war if you don't treat your opponents with a certain level of respect).
>>97305763I'm this >>97300598 dude.I'd argue that it comes down to what happens to anyone that surrenders to the orcs. If the orcs torture, kill, and eat any captives - then there's no reason to keep any orc that you capture alive. There's no reasonable quid pro quo. If you do keep the orc alive it's solely because you're bound by your own nation/culture's laws and morality (and would probably end up having to put the creature down anyway assuming it was incapable of acting anything other than evil.)International laws that define war crimes aren't divinely granted arbiters of what's good and right. They're treaties between great powers that constrain each other in case of conflict (and more importantly constrain the lesser powers). More importantly they need someone willing and able to enforce the terms of the treaties upon other states.If the Human Republic is a regional hegemon and decides to implement a policy of killing all surrendered orcs, they can unless the other hegemons (the Dwarven Collectivist State and the United Elfish Principalities) are willing to stop them (and use force of some sort (whether military, economic or diplomatic) to do so).
>>97307375Can you just turn down a surrender offer?
>>97307272You can't mutilate prisoners (article 3) but if they have someone else's ear you can take that unless its some sort of family 'earloom.>>97307386>Can you just turn down a surrender offer?Like if someone comes up to you hands up and says "I surrender"? Conditional surrender (i.e. I want this and that in exchange for surrender) you can always turn down (or more likely negotiate). Unconditional surrender (dude isn't fighting having laid down their arms or is otherwise hors de combat (sick, wounded, trapped, etc etc) you can't turn down (without it being a war crime).
>>97300372What the fuck does the anglos have to do with this?
>>97307400>some sort of family 'earloomAnon, I almost spat out my soup!
>>97307400>some sort of family 'earloom.
>>97306594SS Dirlewanger got fucked hard after the war, both officers and lower enlisted. There was never going to be a place for them even if Nazi Germany survived, let alone prevailed.
>>97307498I'm pretty sure having them come back was never part of the plan.
>>97307517>valorizing losersI guess you know what that makes YOU hee hee :D
>>97307518Valorizing? Expelling dregs of society onto enemy territory so that they can provide some questional utility suppressing local population is pure ruthless pragmatism. Because that's what Strafbataillon was
>>97307552It truly was a brilliant, cynical 6,000,000 IQ move to deploy retards and rapists who fragged their team as much as the enemy. If only modern cynical empires could be the wise!Dirlewanger "succeeded" as long as he did because of nepotism and desperation. You're thinking of Wagner PMC, ironically slavs doing a better job of the whole thing you're describing and yet still failing (it's bad idea to employ retarded criminals instead of executing them).
>>97307561As I said before, having them come back was never part of the plan. And I don't know about empires, but the idea of turning domestic undesirables into expendable fighting force deployed abroad lives on, before Wagner Group there was Project 100,000.
>>97307607>As I said before, having them come back was never part of the plan.And as I said before, that plan was bad. It was dumb. Does that make sense?>And I don't know about empiresOf course not. Here's a new ruthless pragmatism for you: when you identify a domestic undesirable, remove them from existence instead of arming and training them to fight wars.
>>97305853Last I checked, Forgotten Realms is trying to do the whole "noble savage" thing with orcs, so they might accept a prisoner exchange or similar.
>start war>disregard human rights >surrender because you're losing>expect your human rights to be honored??????
>>97307625Disposing of the undesirables domestically is always little tricky, especially at scale, there can be backlash of public opinion, sending them to perish abroad is far more palatable.
>>97295667Depends how they react if you throw a ball?
>>97307667>Disposing of the undesirables domestically is always little tricky, especially at scaleIt's actually really easy, as... the same exact country in this same exact period of time proved.
>>97307703Suffering backlash of public opinion for it. To the point of assassination attemps at the leadership figure.
>>97303111A classic of ancient days
>>97300560Thanks anon very informative>>97300598>For most of history the general idea has been that if you don't act like a dick to your prisoners the other guy will have less reason to act like a dick to yours. If a party routinely kills prisoners/surrendered combatants or raids villages etc. Their enemies will likely not grant them any quarter when/if they attempt surrender and will go and burn down villages in the lands the party hails from.In von clauswitz book "on war" he outlined a similar idea that escalating atrocity invites other sides to do the same so by nature each side eventually reaches an equilibrium for how they deal with each other.
>>97308046I mean when you get right down to it the whole thing is just a loose tit for tat set of either official or unofficial agreements. You might not always be the doctor in combat so its probably a good idea to have a good reputation and not be known as "that gang of bastards who murders, pillages, and rapes everything they come across" with the exception when they are dealing with enemies who are actual unredeemable bastards then things are fair game. So I think in most settings a groups willingness to commit war crimes should be treated as a difficulty setting modifier. The more war crimes you commit the less likely enemies are to both surrender or grant you leniency of they capture you.
>>97307561It wasnt brilliance it was corruption and desperation. Dirlewanger had friends in high up places who saved his ass even before the war when the crimes he committed against his own people would have gotten him sentenced to life in prison or executed. He was chosen to command the "undesirables" because he himself was king undesirable and enough of a violent retard to keep the other violent retards in line. But there is no world in which he would have eventually gotten away with his crimes they were just too numerous and too egregious for people to ignore. Even among the wehrmacht he was a public relations nightmare.
>>97295787KEK
>>97295698I hate reminders like this that more and more of this site is just Indians pretending to be human
>>97302909Been ages since I've seen it, but that scene, featured heavily in trailer/posters for the movie, is pretty misleading.They just pose with the boy for a photograph and let him go unharmed.Which probably still counts as some sort humiliation/intimidation related wacrime, but nowhere near as bad as the literal gun to the head implies.
>>97307625Anon never said it was a good or bad plan, just that sending them out there was indeed the plan of the higher ups. This may shock you but governments don't always make the best plans, especially in war.
>>97314123He just doesn't want to accept that politics is just high school but now in front of a crowd.
>>97306557The mutilation of dead bodies is considered a warcrime
>>97314171It is now, by Geneva definition, and it was back during the event of Iliad, but for some cultures in the interim it was considered acceptable - such as native american scalp taking. Standards change.
>>97294582none of my PCs are soldiers and even if they were, none of their countries have signed the Geneva Convention.
>>97314201Standards do not only change, but are simply not recognized universally.I doubt the Fulani who are presently massacring Christians in Nigeria care much for the conduct of war, or that they ever did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db_Z7OfJWqI
>>97294619trying to 'surrender' while being an un-uniformed combatant.
>>97295658no. that is a false surrender and is actually a war crime. the punishment is that you lose ALL protections of the geneva conventions etc. NOW the captors can do what ever they want with you.ONLY a legit surrender, following the rules of PoW's, gives you the LEGAL protections of PoW's.
>>97320458Militia can't "legally" surrender?
>>97299020cry, faggot commie, cry.
>>97299371that hitler quote is such a self own lmao
>>97299020Is it really an invasion if you're not occupying any of their territory and just surgically removing few disagreeable individuals from power?
>>97320471yes, so long as they are identifiably wearing an obvious uniform.the very moment your fighters wear civilian clothes and shit, trying to hide within the ranks of the populace, you lose ALL legal protections.this is why if a spy gets caught, you can do fucking anything you want to them. they have zero protections.
>>97320590I guess that hangs on what constitutes "an obvious uniform", paramilitaries that have been preparing for the happening will probably have their khakis, anthem, and coat of arms, but militia formed on short notice will probably just wear their regular clothes, maybe with headbands or armbands in a matching color, maybe not even that.
>>97320630in the american revolutionary war, the us militias, who were chronically short of uniforms, would resort to things like english uniforms hastily painted, or tying special coloured rags around their arms and shit.basically, you can't be doing any sneaky shit trying to NOT look like a fighter.you can camo the fuck up. you just can't wander around pretending you're a hunter.you just have to be openly identifiable as NOT a part of the civilians who aren't supposed to be targeted etc.
>>97295642>getting this bent out over a look to the cameraThings must be going well if that is what is sickening to you.
>>97299020That would be unpleasant! However, reclaiming oil reserves which belong to you but were "collectivized" by communists is, of course, based (as is killing socialists).
