>absolute best case scenario fully-painted nu40k looks like THISHow do we even turn the tide on this? How do we get back to the foamcut hills and rock towers and mesh fences and handcrafted bunkers of 1st-4th edition 40k? Not to mention less characters on DVD sized bases.I mean god, GW don't even care for creating new plastic 40k terrain like they did 5th-7th, it's all laser cut MDF shit and rubber objective markers.Where does this go in five more years?
>>97297758>fully painted>some of the warriors aren't basedI'm sure you'll get it right next time OP. Keep at.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I think that for official tournaments with actual prize money on the line, terrain should be very simplified and standardized just like how sports arenas have very strict design standards laid out in the official rules.
>>97301386You know you can just do board turns between games?1st game player X chooses the board side to deploy from.2nd game player Y does the same. Deals with 99% of problems without the need for turning terrain into soulless L-shit. And the 1% left is dependent mostly on overall terrain density.
>>97301386Official tournaments and their communities aspiring to be super serious businnes rather than festivals of soulful nerdy fun are one of the major sources of issues in the hobby nowadays. And like the other anon said, there's a bunch of ways to make cool looking tables balanced without losing the cool factor>Pair players in such a way that they get to choose their half othe table every other game>Allow players to take turns placing and arrangin terrain pieces on the tables themselves before the game>Allow one player to arrange the table and then allow the other to pick their side >Make the jury judge how equal both sides are and modify them if needed or give some extra points/advantages to the disadvantaged player
>>97297758The sad part is is that since they moved to a terrain footprint model, they could have wacky and wild unique terrain (as long as it vaguely fits in the template); forests of weird alien mushrooms, walls of tooth pick cacti, alien ruins, wrecked space ships, bunkers and trench sections, etc... but they choose to keep it as shit looking L shaped ruins
>>97302578It is funny that tourneytrannies turned 40k into league of legends>NOOOOO THE GAME ISNT BALANCED UNLESS THERE ARE THREE LANES AND I HAVE TO DO WACKY SIDE OBJECTIVES TO ACHIEVE VICTORY
>>97301386You are everything wrong with the hobby. Fuck if this is how you feel then every table needs a judge, there needs to be ONE brand of dice, like casinos, ONE brand of tape measurer, NO conversions or at least a 'volume template' (like infinity) for every model, mandatory clocks... Each and every thing to remove human error that just turns it into even more of a board/vidya game and sucks the soul from it
>>97302588I mean with what I'm saying the tourneytrannies would still get their mandatory three lanes with a minimum of two lanes big enough for their mandatory fat ass centerpiece model to wattle through. But it would at least LOOK interesting.Instead it's fucking L shaped trash all the way down, including the NEW and IMPROVED CLEAR PLASTIC L shaped walls, to just completely remove any doubt that this isn't just a shit tier board game
>>97301386Play chess or a video game.Wargames are not for this crap.
>>97301386I think that for official tournaments, unpainted models should be acceptable. That way the paypiggies can go through armies faster and the rest of us can buy them secondhand more conveniently.
>>97297758What's the problem exactly? That setup seems perfect for a serious competitive game like Warhammer 40K. No one plays narrative slop. OP is nogaems as usual.
>>97303813>No one plays narrative slopwrong
>this conversation>againDidn't I already destroy your arguments in the last thread?
>>97297758People that feel strongly about this need to organise alternatives. Put more work into pre-organising games rather than just rocking up to a game night with a box. Houserule current edition 40k to make terrain rules less retarded or play older editions in order to make nice terrain mechanically usable again. With historicals and alt wargames the main social equivalent to the 40k tournament is the convention. Clubs and individuals place a lot of pride in the tables and games they bring. Think BoYL. It used to be the case that the tournament suited most comers. Unfortunately tournaments being standardised by s*ppos was a mistake.>>97303830I bet you did, champion.
>>97303830they care little about that, the trolling will simply continue until they find something else that gets even more bites.
>>97301386Probably an incredibly popular opinion, but anyone who thinks like you should be stoned to death alongside the nonces you're spiritual kin with.
>>97303813What the fuck is this slop and where can I find more? Why do they all look the same?
>>97304372There are a lot of these videos on Facebook. The whole 40K GT scene is like the now that the game is a try hard e-sport.
>>97304060Quite literally no one has been able to address my simple argument and prove it wrong. I'll post it once again here to give /tg/ ANOTHER chance at trying to disprove it >"yes, obviously, left looks better than right, no one is going to disagree with that. but when playing a GAME, right is obviously going to be a funner experience for BOTH sides, just look at the utter lack of balance in the left terrain set up. the near side has to traverse a river and then fight through open fields while the far side immediately gets access to most the hard cover of buildings on the map and on top of that gets the hedgerows overlooking the open fields. its blatantly not fair and poorly set up.>but just give the attack side more units!ok then, how do you balance that? how do you know how many points to allocate to balance out the terrain advantage? double? triple? what if thats too much and now the attacker has the distinct advantage? its way too much trouble to figure out. thats why tourney tables will always provide the better gameplay experience for BOTH sides. GAMEplay. WarGAMES. These are GAMES. A good game needs to be fun for all involved. It is not fun when one side has an inherent advantage over the other. There is a reason why 40k tournaments are by and far the most popular wargaming events and playstyle over every single alternative.>Think of it this way. Look at Battletech players. They arguably play on the ugliest paper hex mats and hex counter terrain in wargaming, despite the fact that playing BT with physical and 3d terrain has existed for decades. They CHOOSE the uglier terrain because readability and clear rules for LOS matter to gameplay, aesthetics do not."
>>97305578If Battletech players were CHOOSING the ugliest terrain then they would play on your mom. There, you got blown out and you don't have to post this again.
>>97305578Probably because your whole "argument" isn't anything but garbage obviously written by an autist that wraps themselves in copes instead of accepting your limitations in order to grow beyond them. I'd say nobody wants to put work into delusional shit, and while you're worthy of a great deal of contempt, you're clearly also fucked in the head and perhaps worth some sympathy. There might be some tension there between telling you what a sack of shit you are and explaining why in such a way that you might eventually stop being such a dead weight.Look at this garbage:>Here's several of the many ways people could, do, and always have balanced 'asymmetric' scenarios. However it's not immediately intellectually accessible to me and I'm insecure about my intellect, so I'm going to declare it impossible and memoryhole whole parts of the hobby as a cope.>Here's my taste in scenarios I'm framing as objective truth because coming to an understanding of subjectivity would involve acknowledging I have autism and coming to terms with not having an instinctive understanding of taste.>My argument? Holding shift whenever I type "GAME". I'll also memoryhole 40k being a MINIATURES wargame with aesthetics baked into the whole genre because it's inconvenient to me.>Look at Battletech. I won't. It's a gridded, precise, wargame far better suited to my interests, but I'm an entitled iconoclastic oxygen thieving cunt so instead of choosing a game appropriate to my taste it's 40k that must change. I'm sympathetic to a degree because 4chan is a factory that turns autistic teenage boys into the most dysfunctional versions of themselves, but on the other hand you're choosing to be more stupid than you are which is contemptible. Your entitlement. The way you champion the ugliness that 7 editions of 40k and much of the rest of the wargaming hobby did without.Just because nobody can be fucked challenging your constant faggotry doesn't mean you or your opinions are worth anything.
>>97305578On the left is a historical boardgame, representing a fictional but plausible scenario that a good general would enjoy tackling.On the right is a collection of cut-up shoeboxes created so a pair of autistic manchildren can pursue a ‘balance’ that has not and never will exist in any form of real combat.Additional fun on the left hand table comes from the same players and forces playing the same scenario and table again but swapping sides.Oh and your drooling faggotry has been debunked every single time you have posted this, you fucking fruitcake.
>>97305783you've failed to address my point, which is that a competitive tournament focused game like 40k is better played on competitive tournament focused tables. No where did I claim that my "tastes in scenarios" was "objective truth" or better than narrative boards. I openly admit at the start of my argument that left clearly looks better than right. My concern is and has always been balanced tournament scenarios, of which 40k tournament tables are the gold standard, despite how goofy they may look, and that "looks" have nothing to do with good gameplay. You have failed to prove that a good looking narrative board will provide tournament balance the way 40k boards do. Further more, narrative games are not compatible with casual "pick-up game culture". Tournament standard terrain lay outs allow a bunch of random strangers gathering at the LGS to have fun without terrain and planning commitments. All you've done is waste your own time with this pointless tirade attacking an argument I never made. >The way you champion the ugliness that 7 editions of 40k and much of the rest of the wargaming hobby did without.And until 40k adopted tournament play as the norm, 40k and wargaming were dead niche hobbies and GW was barely staying afloat. Its no coincidence that the rise of 40k's success tracks cleanly with the rise in tournament relevance and adapting to more modern forms of entertainment like video games and e-sports. The market has spoken and its clear what the audience values. >>97305869>your drooling faggotry has been debunked every single time you have posted thisMy post is easiyl searchable on the archive. Go ahead and point me to one time where anyone has been able to successfully connect nice narrative terrain with tournament balance.
>>97306144I already pointed out your argument being predicated on balance is silly.>losing is fun>balance is blandetc
>>97306144>My concern is and has always been balanced tournament scenarios, of which 40k tournament tables are the gold standard
>>97306144>you've failed to address my point, which is that a competitive tournament focused game like 40k is better played on competitive tournament focused tables.If that was your fucking point you weasel fuck I would have been more emphatic in contesting that 40k is a "competitive tournament focussed game" in the first instance. Even then we've both already described why Battletech is a superior game for your purposes.>No where did I claim that my "tastes in scenarios" was "objective truth" or better than narrative boards. Not openly, but all your declaratives about what constitutes fun and balance, impersonal tone, and arrogance says otherwise. As I already wrote in declaring different forms of balancing scenarios "way too much trouble to figure out" despite evidence to the contrary provided by much of the rest of the hobby, you're not leaving any room for any opinions or experience besides your own. From what I see I strongly believe you reckon that what you're conveying are not your opinions but objective truth. You clearly seem to refuse to process that any opinions or experience besides your own even exist.>You have failed to prove that a good looking narrative board will provide tournament balance the way 40k boards do.Wasn't my fucking argument cockhead. I will say though prior to the international tournament scene selling their values out to a group of s*ppos in return for international tournament rankings from 2018 onwards, prior to that filtering down to the casual scene, people were happy with tables that were fair and balanced rather than autistically mirrored down to the millimetre.cont
>>97306639>Further more, narrative games are not compatible with casual "pick-up game culture". Tournament standard terrain lay outs allow a bunch of random strangers gathering at the LGS to have fun without terrain and planning commitments.>And until 40k adopted tournament play as the norm, 40k and wargaming were dead niche hobbies and GW was barely staying afloat. Its no coincidence that the rise of 40k's success tracks cleanly with the rise in tournament relevance and adapting to more modern forms of entertainment like video games and e-sports. The market has spoken and its clear what the audience values.Consider what I think of you, your authoritarian opinions; also consider that your participation in the hobby with the opinions that you hold, in the way you hold them, is only possible in a post-2018 milieu.I am absolutely immune to arguments based on popularity. The more distance between you and me the better.>40k and wargaming were dead niche hobbies and GW was barely staying afloat.>deadDead to you, because you're a cunt and it's a social hobby.>GW was barely staying afloat.If you're sincerely blaming GW's performance through the late 2000s on the format 40k games commonly took, then you're even more of a wilfully retarded copefag than I thought. If you're bullshitting, then I have the benefit of being 100% sincere in my convictions.>Go ahead and point me to one time where anyone has been able to successfully connect nice narrative terrain with tournament balance.Very easy for you to declare "gg no re" when you ignore everything you don't have an immediate answer for, like the substance from that anon's post.
>>97305869/thread
>>97301386Just like official golf!All playing in a parking lot to have the same opportunities
>>97297758Some of the warriors are unpainted.
>>97297758>2026 file date>fucking cryptid level photographyhow
>>97304060Juat don't play 40k. It's that simple.
>>97308470Yeah, but it's not exactly going to turn that shit around. Did forget to mention alt rulesets in the list though.
>>97297758>How do we get back to the foamcut hills and rock towers and mesh fences and handcrafted bunkersWhat exactly is preventing you from playing with those?
>>97297758Current 40k is more of a board game than a war game compared to what it used to be.Everything deals way more damage than it did in previous editions so line of sight blocking terrain is important for having any semblence of fairness, not even getting into the melee vs shooting in relation to the amount of terrain debacle.If try to play a more narrative, unusual setup you're bound to have a terrible experience, unfortunetely.
>>97301386Official tournaments with actual prize money on the line shouldn't fucking exists. Tournaments should be at least semi narrative campaigns with characteful terrain, interesting missions and top prize being a challenge cup and a coupon for hobbystore. Fuck tourney fags.
>>97303813'Murricans truly ruin everything they touch.
>>97305578Take your pasta and shove it up your ass.
>>97301386Further proof that competitive and tourneyfags ruin everything.
>>97314745>Official tournaments with actual prize money on the line shouldn't fucking exists.They don't. There was a brief period when they had prize money years ago but they quickly backed away from that.I didn't play back then but I can't even imagine the sheer levels of seething at dice, rules lawyering and angle shooting if there was money on the line.
>>97305578This is pasta, but the fact that some people genuinely think like this is worrying.
>>97305578
>>97303813I hope China nuke you to oblivion.
>>97316640Nah they are just going to take Taiwan this year
>>97303813Disgusting.
You’re a fucking loser if you’re a tourney fag. You’re the equivalent of CEDH fags. Worthless piles of garbage with no friends and probably work at papa John’s because you’re a dipshit. Maybe one day you’ll understand where the spirit of the hobby and game lies. Until that day…go fuck yourselves.
>>97297758>best case scenarioThat is cardboard cutout terrain and a neoprene playmat, so no. I do recognize that the point is more about the gamification of terrain turning all of it into L shaped two-story ruins, but you could still have a better looking table than that without running up against that wall.
>>97297758>how do I get other people to do things that I am totally uninvolved with in the particular way that I think they should do itYou don't. I can control the terrain people use in my immediate locality because about 70% of that terrain is mine and nobody else attempts to supply terrain. If you want to change how the games played by a particular group of people look then you personally need to be involved in those people source the terrain for the games that they play.You're a person with agency, go do something.
>>97314754>>97314857I've reiterated this multiple times. Yes technically it is pasta, but it is pasta because this THREAD is pasta and I believe my argument to be the perfect response to this thread, proven by the fact that NO ONE has been able to refute my argument logically. And if you're going to bitch nonstop about pasta and trolling, why do you not call out the repeated, shameless spam of anti-40k tournament threads?
>>97303813Is this video AI generated? I refuse to believe that someone genuinely edited a tabletop game event's footage to resemble a smashed and slammed bulldog commercial. A human being would have had to have some shame.
>>97317154>this THREAD is pasta and I believe my argument to be the perfect response to this thread, proven by the fact that NO ONE has been able to refute my argument logically.Meanwhile, everyone else can read the thread and seeing you ignore shit you don't have a response to.
>>97303813We should kill all americans. You are a disease.
>>97317328Why respond to posts that don't even try to address my argument and only strawman me? Go ahead though, either point me to the post you claim refutes me or lay it out clearly right now and meaningfully link nice narrative terrain to optimized tournament balance. Go ahead. I'll wait.
>>97317399Your original point was rebuked several times, which is why though you ignored it you've now moved on to posting this word salad>meaningfully link nice narrative terrain to optimized tournament balance
>>97317466Holy fucking cope that's always been my point
>>97318980So that copypasta you're very proud of, where you say different ways of balancing scenarios ""way too much trouble to figure out", where you say "thats why tourney tables will always provide the better gameplay experience for BOTH sides", "always" mind you, all those times you've spammed it only now you're only just now clarifying that you mean as pertains to "optimized tournament balance". As an aside I'm unsurprised to see American spelling, that's where your particular cancer spread from.The people telling you to just kill yourself were right to not waste any of their time. At least I've got the strength of conviction to be honest. As soon as you get seriously challenged you've crawled away to a less indefensible argument. Abject scum. You're a total piece of shit.
>>97301386>>97305578Your entire argument about “balance” and “gameplay” quality is automatically refuted by the fact that we’re discussing 40k, a game with famously awful balance and famously awful rules, this would mean that trying to create balance by taking all the soul out of setup designs is pointless because you will literally never turn it into a well balanced engaging game. 40k is meant for narrative play and /yourdudes/ or at least it was before waacfag scum for whom hobbying is a chore got their hands on it. Hilariously pic related is what the tables at a tournament for bolt action, a historical war game with better rules than 40k, looks like, and this would be considered a pretty sloppy board by non-gw hobbyists, literally “best 40k board vs worst historical board” KWABYou Will Never Be A Wargamer
>>97319644There is no contradiction in my claim. Aesthetics have nothing to do with gameplay experience, balance does. This was always my point>>97319735You spew all these opinions and yet the market disagrees and tourney play is a thousand times more popular than narrative. If 40k was so bad for tournament play you'd think that wouldn't be the case and yet here we are.
>>97319735Additionally, Bolt Action, and all wargames that refuse to adapt to the markets demand for tourney play, are dead games with 1% of 40ks success and relevance. So maybe don't champion them as an example of mixing tournament balance with narrative terrain?
>>97301386I think players ought to learn to adapt to terrain. Experience becomes more important than balanced table layouts at that point. For example, Infinity players are expected to do this because every single table is dramatically different. Being able to 'read' the board comes with experience and experimentation, and rewards your for it.
