*sound of chalk scratching*
The world you create reflects your character. Let's use slavery as an example. Slavery is evil. It has always been evil. Slavery before the trans-atlantic slave trade was evil, even if it was not as outwardly brutal.The existence of slavery in your world does not mean that you believe slavery is good. However, if you go out of your way to say "actually slavery isn't evil in this world", this is a reflection of your own character. Because there is some part of you that believes that act of stealing someone away from their families and turning them into property at the threat of violence is morally acceptable.
>>97337137*sound of chalk scratching*
>>97337137It's more like "if you include X thing, you think it is interesting to explore doing it that way in a fictional space, and to present the ideas that way to your reader for consideration."This doesn't strictly mean you have to support that thing, but it would take an awfully notable lack of self-awareness for your own actions to present a thing we generally consider as bad in the real world as "good" in the perspective of the people in your writing without challenging it.
>>97337137>Slavery before the trans-atlantic slave trade was evil, even if it was not as outwardly brutal.It was though. Dirkas cut off the manhood of their African catches. Both sides of the Mohammedan and Christian slave systems in the Med deliberately worked most captives in conditions they knew would result in death, and did not care. You gotta go back farther in Europe + the near east to get less brutal slavery.
>>97337137>even if it was not as outwardly brutal.Is this an attempt by brownoids to rationalise how they have kept slaves for far longer and far more brutally than Europeans ever did?It's not true either, it was standard practise for male slaves in the Ottoman Empire and Arab states to be gelded, a thing extremely uncommon in transatlantic slavery.
>>97337238Not, mind you, that European transatlantic trade was very nice. For quite some time, it was taken as a given that slaves would just die, there was no real interest in keeping them alive and breeding them. Cleverer heads eventually prevailed and implemented on the continent systems most people are more casually familiar with.Those early colonial centuries were brutal for all involved, though. Being sent as a slave to Jamaica was a death sentence, for example, but so was being sent as a soldier, lol.
>>97337137Coming up with justifications for slavery, even if it is fictitious slavery in a fictitious setting, might well say something about the author's own morality. Just having slavery be a thing, presenting various in-setting views on it without making any kind of an objective statement about it as an author and letting the audience make their own moral judgements doesn't really.
>>97337258I'll take a swing at it because I'm bored. Slavery is a righteous punishment for pirates, invading enemy soldiers, and any sort of violent criminal (this includes thieves). It need not be life enslavement, but forced labor as restitution is comparatively merciful vs. mutilation or death.
>>97337168I said what I said.>>97337213I think you generally get it, but as I said, what you create is a reflection of you. I mention the slavery thing because if you believe that a world where slavery can be good, this suggests that you think such an institution is not inherently evil in what it does. You're either dim and going "really makes you think" or there's something vile inside of you.>>97337237>>97337238This is not to downplay the cruelty of slavery before it. There is no such thing as "clean slavery." All of it is turning people into property by means of violence and enacting cruelty upon them. Chattel slavery is only unique in its cruelty in that the victims of chattel slavery were treated were than livestock.I want to make it emphatically clear: all slavery is evil. The slavery that came before chattel slavery still involved kidnapping, murder, rape and torture.
>>97337276"I can imagine a more unjust punishment" does not make slavery just. It means you're evil.Consider the following hypothetical: a man is convicted of a crime he did not commit. In the process of his sentence of slavery, he is worked to death. Was this justice?
>>97337301Are you one of those cunts that takes a photo of a deceased person and says "Hi, my name is Jane Smith, I was shot during a routine traffic stop, is this justice?"
>>97337276I'd question the idea that all forced labour, including a specific amount of labour as punishment for a crime with certain basic rights guaranteed, is slavery.
>>97337305You're trying to avoid the question because you know the answer. You know that the innocent man worked to death means your "just slavery" is only "just" because you imagined a greater cruelty you could inflict. But let's reframe the situation. A man sentence for a crime he did not commit refuses to work as a slave. He asserts, correctly, that he did nothing wrong and should not be forced to labor as a slave for a crime he is innocent of. For this, he is beaten, and dies as a result of this beating.Was this justice?
>>97337326Neither of them are, dumbfuck, that's not what the conversation is about. You literally think that because I can write something that I endorse it. Fuck no, mate. Not how it works. At all.
>>97337326The injustice stems from the man being innocent, not from the nature of his puinishment anon. So, for example an innocent man who is sentenced to life in prison and dies in prison, 60 years later is subject to just as much injustice as your enslaved example. The argument about one being crueller than the other is a separate issue. The injustice remains the same.Likewise a man sentenced to watch his wife have sex with other men in a non-consensual NTR scenario, but then he's free to live his life afterward, supposed crime paid off. Again the injustice would derive from him being actually innocent of the crime.
>>97337356You have suggested that you can imagine a form of just slavery. Your just slavery is easily proved to be unjust, with its sole justification being "I can imagine greater cruelties">>97337358I am not interested in entertaining your fetish for being cuckolded, anon.
>>97337391The point I raised about the source of the injustice is valid and dismantling to your entire argument and you know it.
>>97337137This stupid faggot thinks the only type of slavery in existence was the type where you got pulled out of your bed at night by foreigners and hauled away in chains. Debt slavery was, and remains, a massive thing. When the choice is a much harsher punishment, you'd choose labor instead of death or exile too.
>>97337361>t. has never read Robert Heinlein
>>97337137What if I create a world where a majority of it considers slavery wrong, but there's a society that considers slavery just and natural. This society has a complex system of laws that ensures slaves are treated well enough, but they're still slaves (some willingly, some not). Yet said society is too powerful to be strongarmed into giving up their slave system, therefore a major point of conflict between this nation and others (as well as individuals from this nation and those of others) is their utterly casual disregard of what others see as a massive human rights violation.Am I endorsing slavery here or am I decrying it? How does this complicated admixture of geopolitics, morals, and social upbringing reflect upon my character?
>>97337238>Is this an attempt by brownoids to rationalise how they have kept slaves for far longer and far more brutally than Europeans ever did?Reminder that brownoids STILL keep slaves to this very day. You can buy 5 Kenyans for less than the price of a new iPhone.
>>97337137>even if it was not as outwardly brutalAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>97337283>This is not to downplay the cruelty of slavery before it.Yes it is, you disingenuous cocksucker.
>>97337487I used to work with this lebanese chick who had an aunt with an african slave woman. I said that's wild, and she just shrugged and said "she's like family, kind of" while being an eternal servant.
>>97337301So do you believe prisons should be abolished? Because that's what you're advocating for here.
>>97337137>stealing someone away from their families and turning them into property at the threat of violence is morally acceptable.This is not how slavery has functioned in a majority of advanced societies thoughbeit
>>97337506My brother visited a high-caste indian college classmate's family home one summer and was pretty shocked at how casually they just kinda owned people over there. They TECHNICALLY weren't slaves, but they may as well have been.
>>97337137>stealing someone away from their families and turning them into property at the threat of violence is morally acceptable.So how do you feel about imprisonment for crimes committed? Because that is quite literally stealing someone away from their families and turning them into property at the threat of violence.
>>97337117Morality is a consequence of logic and empathy. Implying morality is suddenly massively different in a different world relies on either the fundamental nature of people changing, or the laws of logic. One is essentially incomprehensible, the other merely extremely difficult to parse. Since a tabletop setting has to be somewhat comprehensible for players to act as characters, or for readers/watchers to understand the motivations of the cast, there aren't many reasons to have an entirely skewed frame of morality. Unknowable ethics, however can be (poorly) used to excuse shit writing, post-facto declaring one side to be the righteous party despite mounds of evidence to the contrary, or similarly declaring another side to be the villain despite evidence to their righteousness/innocence.Similarly, laws are (sometimes) used to try to prevent unethical outcomes, while creating the least number of unethical outcomes themselves. Bad laws can exist, but past a certain point bad laws begin to implode as the people underneath them have enough.
>>97337536Your explanation for different cultures IRL having different morality? Is it the "logic" or "empathy" component that varies?
>>97337529>>97337506An Indian girl I knew in med school had a slave here in the UK. Brought over as an 'aunt' for the family visa but no relation whatsoever and really just an unpaid servant.
>>97337137>Slavery before the trans-atlantic slave trade was evil, even if it was not as outwardly brutal.It was actually more brutal because the middle east nations who enslaved even more people than the trans-atlantic trade would castrate every male slave and rape every female slave.
>>97337630Yeah, always kinda sad. Basically that lady was bullied into coming over, half with a promise of better wages/living conditions and a chance to send things over from the developed world to her own family as well as the usual veiled power imbalance threats probably with underlying caste bias.Then the servant-auntie is trapped in the UK with half-falsified papers, constantly being soft-threatened by the family that indentured her with deportation, isolation from ever seeing her family again, or jail since her papers are half-falsified.Tons of cases, more than the UK and the US will ever know about, because the system is so well set up and hard to detect since it relies on India’s passport and birth record system to be accurate, which it obviously isn’t.>t. Indian kid that grew up with a “nanny” that I found out was literally a slave of the family and still wake up at night sick to my stomach over it. I loved her more than I do my real parents and she died overseas with us of a heart attack away from her real family.First time I ever really put that down on record. Even if it is on a siberian ice-fishing enthusiast laundromat message diary.
>>97337117An interesting premise for a thread...>>97337137...immediately torpedoe'd by the same tired faux-abolitionist handwringing we've seen dozens of times before. Every modern and premodern nation on earth (bar some northern European countries) practices slavery on its prisoners, and many, the USA included, leave them under private for-profit management. The imposition of involuntary labour by force is largely inseparable from the human experience. Even most classic fantasy settings have nobility and peasants legally subservient to them. My issue with this isn't in the morality, I agree that slavery is heinous, but in the framing, that the majority of readers implicitly agree when that could not be farther from the truth. The average person fully agrees with slavery in prison system or by subpar wages, they only dislike when it's called slavery. Ditto for anons who run the gamut of psychoses.Fantasy humans would jump to enslave fantasy goblins given the chance, much like how real Mongols enslaved real Chinese, real Spaniards enslaved real Indios, and real Americans enslaved real Africans. Some writer explaining why it's better goblins are enslaved than exterminated in this kingdom or that republic doesn't make him evil, it makes him human. The debate on fantasy slavery is a tired exercise of running in circles, conducted over devices that all had a substantial amount of slavery in their construction. There are myriad more interesting dilemmas we could be talking about. Vampires insisting on a blood tax, wizards reading people's minds, giants putting a minimum height to hold political office, etc., but it never fucking stops with the slavery. Slavery this, slavery that. Gah, I am tired of hearing about it.
>>97337361Le morte d'auteur
>>97337573A. 'Massively different' was a comment you've casually ignored. Most cultures have a clear murder/killing distinction, clear justified appropriation/theft distinction, clear defense/assault distinction. The particular distinctions are the tolerance for asocial and antisocial behavior, and where such behavior goes from 'punishable by social consequences' to 'punishable by violence'.B. The point the logical process kicks off is where things become distinct. Cultural norms and ethics come from empathy, social cohesion, and material conditions. Empathy and social cohesion vary somewhat, material conditions vary a lot. Cultures with these distinctions will have different morals, but certain behaviors will prompt similar negative responses across various societies.
>>97337317Being compelled to labour against your will is always slavery, even if you are fairly or even richly compensated. Its why doctors have a right to refuse to treat you even if you would die without care. Because compelling doctors to practice medicine under threat of legal penalty, even when the penalty is non-violent and with fair compensation and when doing so would save a life, is slavery. I wont weigh in morally either way, but if you think doctors should be forced to save lives then you technically support slavery. Up to you if you think that makes slavery moral or not, but if you dont then it seems to follow logically that you cannot support forced labour as punishment or compelling evil creatures to do good acts. As a final aside, slavery as punishment is legal in the US. IIRC the way the abolition of slavery is written it explicitly bans all forms except as criminal punishment, which is why the US is the way it is today
>>97337761Shit bro, that's pretty fucked up. At least you recognise that it's wrong though. If it's as common as you say then I guess there's a lot of people who'd not even consider it a problem.
>>97337276Slavery as criminal punishment is always a bad idea because it introduces an element of very direct and personal profit into what's supposed to be an impartial system, heavily incentivizing its misuse.
>>97338112This, just execute everyone, much betterat least you won't have people whining about "stolen land" 300 years later or muh culture
>>97337904I ignored "massively different" because you didn't define what you meant by it. Some would say morality is massively different between the Chinese and the Japanese. If you mean straight up bizarro world "me thank you for robbing me" shit you gotta define those terms.
>>97338112Let me try a response: slavery is an inherently good idea because it recompenses the victims for their suffering, with money earned by the criminals. It's doubly good because enslaved criminals have the chance to reform themselves while still keeping them away from innocents. It's triply good because the money they earn can also go to the state or its private subcontractors to defray the economic costs of managing crime.
>>97338195But in reality what happens when this is made a possiblity is that people will make up any excuse they can to enslave somebody so they can profit off of them, and the authorities will very much seek to perpetuate this nonsense because they also very easily stand to gain a piece of that pie.
>>97338211The existence of evil is not a valid rebuttal to good. Slavery in the Western tradition began as an alternative to wartime genocide or peacetime blood money. It merged with prisons during the period when galleys were a major national-military need. But the IRL historical reasoning was a twist on your take. Common people didn't make up excuses to get slaves. It was as rare as framing someone for a crime today. On the contrary, kings *reduced* the punishments career criminals like armed robbers and murderers deserved from execution to slavery on the galleys.When the need for not wasting hard manual labor went away with the end of the medieval period, we became free to apply a different set of legal punishments. That's the difference. Slavery is common sense in a medieval setting and pointless in a post-scarcity one.
>>97338272>>97338272>The existence of evil is not a valid rebuttal to goodHaving easily exploitable systems with built-in incentives for corruption isn't good.It wasn't rare at all. That kind of corruption was even more rampant than it is now.
>>97338284>Having easily exploitable systems with built-in incentives for corruption isn't good.Of course not. Neither is wasting valuable resources your tribe or your nation needs, such as a pair of hands and legs with a strong back. Congratulations, you've discovered tradeoffs, utilitarianism, and pragmatism!Your innate cultural instincts saying 'wow that's horrible' are predominantly based on living in a world of steam engines and combustion engines, where a generic untrained human body is no longer a critical economic resource. Today we practice our moral tradeoffs around issues like oil or computer chips.
>>97338323There is no tradeoff here though. In reality this system benefits no one except the people intending to exploit it. What you said is just the hollow rhetoric an evil person might use to justify it. I told you why it doesn't actually work. You couldn't refute it, now you're off on some other bullshit.
>>97337117If you replaced "Morals and laws" with "physics" this board would shit itself.
>>97337117>>97337137>>97337168Perfect bait material, genuinely impressive
>>97338284>Having easily exploitable systems with built-in incentives for corruption isn't good.This is necessarily all systems with humans.
>>97338413I'm sorry for you and the fact you live in a thrid world shithole
>>97338413Sure, but they're not all equally vulnerable to those problems and people keep trying to find methods that close the various loopholes. Doesn't always work and never has it worked 100%, but that doesn't make them all equally bad.
>>97338427You're going to have a really difficult time pointing out a country without anyone exploiting its systems or corruption.
>>97338441Okay, so if you dilute the definition of "Slavery" down to "Corruption" (which it isn't) then sure slavery is everywhere we're all slaves to aznmoot and the mods, but those of us who know that words have defined meanings know that your definition of slavery isn't the actual definition.
>>97338413>we can't solve all problems perfectly so in fact we should just do nothing
>>97338434If you're going to have absolutist shit like >all XYZ is Evil re >>97337137then that's what we're stuck with. then you have to live with it it.
>>97338459>I need to consider myself a Good person or some shit lmao
>>97337914>my mom sending me to my room is technically slaveryCool. When did you first know you would become an intellectual?
>>97338441>If there is just ONE person exploiting the system, it's the same when it's my corrupt, distunctional shithole, where there is ONE normal person and few millions of griftersThanks for proving my pointAlso, we tend to put those cunts in jail, rather than let them run the show.
>>97338482>Things nobody said, but in green letters
>>97337168>author
>>97337258>author
>>97337862>auteur
/his/ and /lit/ fags in bodybags.
>>97338083There's not really anyone that they can complain to. The UK and US don't even know the scale of it, and India itself doesn't care to keep track of all the people coming in and out or even being born in rural areas. There are tons of people who are full, legal Indian citizens that live and die completely undocumented and only have village registers that never make it to any national database in India.
>>97338556You linked the wrong post. here, >>97338459
>>97338558Yes, that's how that word is spelled.
>>97338555You guys are really good at arguing against things nobody said.>Also, we tend to put those cunts in jail, rather than let them run the show.Sure you do.
>>97338555>Also, we tend to put those cunts in jail, rather than let them run the show.Sure you do,that's why:>The UK is just diet China>The EU is also just diet China>The US is run by pedophiles>Australia, which is a third diet china>Russia is run by an incompetent retard who has thrown his entire population into a meat grinder like a dumbfuck>China, one of the most evil places on the planet due to its censorship and authoritarianismThere is no first world country that isn't run by horrible people.
>>97339096Russia isn't a first world country.And China is PROUDLY a third world country (Since they're using the status to exploit the international postal system and get cheaper rates on exports)
>>97339108If I didn't include them some of their retarded cocksuckers would pipe up whining that I didn't, but the fact the UK, EU, and AUS are copying China's model of how they handle free speech and the internet should tell you enough about those countries and where they're going.
>>97338799You're a complete retard if you think that's the issue.
>>97339394Slot in GM and the message reads the same.
>>97339462A GM shouldn't be writing anything.
>>97339525Then how the dimma-diddlyfuck do I have my own setting?
>>97339570Because you're a dunning-kruger who thinks they know better than curated materials.
>>97337137Obviously false. I can create one setting where slavery is bad and another where it is good. Since it isn't the case that I can believe both things are true, it therefore follows that nothing about any world you create conveys any information about your character. QED.
>>97337283Yeah, and what you said was incorrect. Try to keep up.
>>97339604Curated by who?
>>97339570You can make a setting without writing one, very easily in fact. And, you can take notes about anything you need to remember about it for later.A game's setting doesn't necessarily need to be written, because setting is secondary to playing games.
>>97339604"Curated materials" are also written, so fuck off.
>>97337861I think the problem is that we never really get past the petty morality aspect of the discussion and get into understanding just why slavery (and non-free labour described in other terms) was so prevalent in pre-modern societies which would actually lead to world-building that would result in worlds that just don't have slavery "just because they don't, okay? Slavery is le bad and my world (and implicitly, me, the creator) is le good."
>>97337283>I think you generally get it, but as I said, what you create is a reflection of you. I mention the slavery thing because if you believe that a world where slavery can be good, this suggests that you think such an institution is not inherently evil in what it does. You're either dim and going "really makes you think" or there's something vile inside of you.You can. We live in one. It's called usury. Debt is slavery.
>>97337137slavery is a necessary evil for any non-industrial (or in fantasy settings, non-magical) civilization to grow beyond a collection of agrarian villages with maybe one or two larger towns. It's just pure numbers. Before the industrialization of the west, 90% of the workforce was involved in agriculture. only 1 out of every 10 people could have the freedom to do anything besides grow crops or raise livestock. And no, that wasn't a case of "well the 90% were just serfs or slaves, only the remaining 10% were free men and could choose what profession to have". Plenty of freeholders worked in agriculture as well. By "freedom to do anything besides grow crops" I mean it took the other 9 people growing crops to be able to feed themselves plus the one man doing something else. If just 2 out of those 10 guys were doing something else besides growing food, they'd all starve. So just the remaining 10% were free to do all the other tasks necessary to have a functioning, large-scale civilization. From harvesting of raw resources like timber or metal ores and the production of those raw resources into usable goods, to the construction & maintenance of roads, bridges, and other public works, to the providing of services like medical care, law enforcement, (((merchants))) and grocers, to inn & tavern keepers. Sure, the other 90% involved in agriculture could help out at certain times, the majority of agriculture labor is focused during the planting and harvesting seasons so they could be put to other tasks outside of those times and often were, but that's a far cry from having a dedicated, skilled professional working in their field throughout the entire year.cont.
>>97339659>>97339525You're a nogames, and I can tell. How? You've never run or played a game in your life, because if you had, you'd know that for a game to actually last you do need to have a setting for the game to happen in. Otherwise, there are no stakes, there's no threats, and there's no reason for anyone to do anything.
>>97337117Traditional games?
>>97337137>>97340342the second bigger problem is that all of those people working in agriculture have to be paid. But agriculture as a rule cannot generate much in the way of revenue because food has to be affordable for everyone. Yes there are major agricultural corporations that rake in billions in profit annually today, but they achieve that thanks to both the absurdly large scale of their holdings, and modern technology reducing the number of workers needed per acre tenfold. So going back to pre-industrial numbers, 90% of your population is (mostly) working in agriculture, a field (heh) that does not generate much revenue to begin with because food has to be affordable, but that minimal revenue is now being split up even further to pay the untold numbers of workers and farmhands involved in it. The end result is that the vast majority of your population, is very, very poor despite being fully employed. Now again, agricultural workers can and did seek alternative employment during off-seasons which would put more money in their pockets, but that pales in comparison to someone working in a higher-paying job the whole damn year.cont.
>>97337137>>97340342>>97340404Enter slavery. What if there was some way to artificially increase both the number of workers available to tend to the fields and livestock, and increase the amount of coin in your average citizen's purse so they can live better lives? The simple answer is to go capture some people outside of your lands and force them to work the fields without pay. And if that isn't an option for whatever reason, then pick the lowest members of your people's society at the current moment and force them to work the fields without pay. Now more of your non-enslaved population is free to find work outside of farming, and more money can go to the pockets of those that still need to work the fields cause what pay the slaves would have received if they weren't in chains goes to them instead. There is some overhead involved in slavery since you need people to watch the slaves and make sure they don't slack off, try to run away, or worse start conspiring to form a revolt, but as long as that ratio is more than 1:1, then slavery is a net positive at least economically. For instance, if it takes 1 person to watch every 10 slaves, that is effectively freeing 9 people to go do something else besides farming per 10 slaves owned. the downsides to slavery is that you now have a population of (rightfully) angry and hostile people living inside of your borders, and the ways that can go very badly don't need to be spelled out. There are also moral and spiritual problems with slavery, especially if a civilization decided to enslave their own peoples instead of outsiders. But if any pre-industrial people wanted to grow beyond being a largely agrarian society, there was no other choice.As for serfdom/peasantry, that was an attempt to mitigate some of the downsides of slavery (i.e. slave revolts) while keeping the benefits. It didn't work of course, peasant rebellions still happened, but at least serfs were *slightly* better off than slaves.
>>97337137>>97340342>>97340404>>97340451In conclusion, the practice of slavery in a fantasy setting being an indication of "evilness" depends on the circumstances. If this is in a setting where technology (or magic) is available and advanced enough to trivialize manual labor, then any people still practicing slavery are indeed evil, since there is not an economic need to justify their actions (i.e. dark elves). And if a group practices slavery but do not put them to much economic use, instead just using them as cannon fodder for their armies, as mere house servants and/or sexual play things, or just sacrifices to god(s), then they are undoubtedly evil (dark elves again, along with vampire counts as well as your generic barbarians or bandits). But if it's a low magic, low tech setting, and the slaves are being used for the traditional purpose of working the fields, then a race/culture that practices slavery in this setting is not automatically "evil" for doing so, and other aspects about them must be analyzed.
>>97340497>But if it's a low magic, low tech setting, and the slaves are being used for the traditional purpose of working the fields, then a race/culture that practices slavery in this setting is not automatically "evil" for doing soI'd say this is the most key part.In a low fantasy setting, concerns about if an action is objectively Good or Evil don't really matter in the same way, because there's not some god hovering over the party ready to take away their magic if they make an objectively incorrect moral choice. You wouldn't tell the players "slavery isn't evil" for a more mundane setting in the first place. You'd tell them that a particular culture practices slavery and it's seen as socially acceptable within that culture, or that there's a religious schism that disagrees about the morality of it. An action doesn't need to be declared as objectively Evil or not for the players to be able to roleplay.
>>97340584>In a low fantasy setting, concerns about if an action is objectively Good or Evil don't really matter in the same waylow-magic doesn't automatically mean low fantasy. you can have a high fantasy setting where magic is not readily available to the greater populace, or doesn't work through simple spells or incantations, instead requiring elaborate rituals or infusing magical energy into artifacts, and wouldn't be used for something as mundane as trivializing manual labor save for the most advanced and magically capable races. And low-magic doesn't necessarily mean god(s) or some other higher power will not respond to your actions. In LOTR for example, when the Numenorians become corrupted by Sauron and start worshiping Morgoth and making human sacrifices, the Valar are immediately displeased with them and they start to suffer consequences, such as the gradual loss of their extended life spans and increased eye sight. And when they cross the final line and send a fleet to invade the Undying Lands, Eru himself directly intervenes, wiping out the fleet and destroying Numenor for their hubris.
>>97340342It isn't.
>>97340661>low-magic doesn't automatically mean low fantasy.If it makes you feel better, you can substitute 'low fantasy' with 'low-powered low-magic fantasy setting in which there is not contact with gods or god-like entities nor objective cosmic definitions of Good and Evil', but I figured that was a bit of a mouthful, and I assumed the rest of the words in my post would be sufficient clarification about the sort of setting I was referring to.
>>97340677not a single civilization pre-industrialization became powerful without practicing slavery in one form or another. when every field that has to be plowed, seeded, tended to, and harvested, every tree cut down and milled, every chunk of ore mined and smelted, every brick formed, fired, and laid, every ditch dug and foundation laid has to be done by hand with little to no machinery, you either need an absolute shit ton of people, or you're going to need slaves.
So how about them traditional games?
>>97340827Stupid thing to say. The people were there. They didn't need to be slaves.Slaves were just another part of rampant wealth hoarding and abuses of power by the elites. The practice benefitted no one except a few individuals. They were swindlers with heavy hands. Society thrived in spite of those practices, not because of them. You're buying into propaganda and adhoc justification. Use your head.
>>97340843/tg/ - Everything But Games
>>97340382You didn't read the posts you responded to.
>>97338518>refutes compelled labour as slavery with an example of imprisonment without forced labourFascinating denial. Do you have an argument to go with it?
>>97340393Oh look, it's this fucking faggot. Again.This is relevant because there are staggering amounts of discourse in all forms of fictional media (including games, traditional and digital) where people throw fucking shitfits because a fantasy world in a fantasy universe during a fantasy era in a fantasy timeline with fantasy history and ways of life does not align with what people consider to be (or should be) modern-day morals even though such things would be out of place, highly unrealistic or irrational, outright impossible, or would completely derail the entire story or the world.
>>97341100What if it's set in the real world?
>>97341109All fiction set in our world takes place in a fantasy version of our world where certain things are changed for the convenience of the plot.
>>97340843>>97340875/tg/ has always been like this, newfags
>>97340875>>97340843See >>97341100Media literacy is at an all-time low, and people cannot separate fantasy from reality, or the author from his writing, because of constant failures by the education system to teach these things.
>>97341100So, mad because nogames.Got it.
>>97341175We are allowed to discuss the state of the industry and discourse around it.
>>97341190The usual autistic obsessive shitposter has decided to muddy the waters by accusing anyone and everyone of being nogames, presumably to declaw their most commonly recieved chastisement. Pay them no mind.
>>97340342yeah how would we ever get to where we are without the hecking pyramids
>>97341190Whole lotta cope, and yet still no games.
>>97337137>The world you create reflects your character.Absolute midwit bullshittery.I have no intention of endorsing the feudal system, but plenty of games I play include are in a feudal society.Just because I have an aragorn-stand in to represent a good king doesn't mean I believe it would be good for my country to suddenly install some dude as a king
>>97337117>>97337168Posting like a redditor should just be the mods post your personal information and you're permanently banned
>>97337487We keep catching Indian immigrants keeping slaves, too. It's fucking weird.
>>97337301>"I can imagine a more unjust punishment" does not make slavery just. It means you're evil.Death and mutilation are just punishments for piracy, invasion, and violence on innocents.>hypotheticalThe fault lies with the process, not the punishment.
>>97341835Arabs and Somalis are the worst for it in Britain.And we keep busting warehouses full of indentured East Asians of some kind.
What the fuck is this thread even
