>referee makes big 3D dungeon model>players therefore already know the entire layout>completely destroys the fun of exploring and mapping a dungeon
You place the rooms when the players enter them, working as intended. Ticket closed.
>>97367606still gives away secret doors, traps, etc (or lack thereof)ISSUE REOPENED.
>>97367637why would it give those things away? you create separate trap or secret door terrain pieces and place them when players approach.
>>97367598This shit is why I don't do more than a dry-erase map and maybe some cheap items for tables and trees.
>refereeWho are you trying to kid, you fucking no games Tourist, "you" addicted f5 scum.gtfo.
>>97367647because you can't escape concepts like 'oh there's the end of the table' or 'his 3D printer only does x*y*z sizes' or 'clearly that wall is going to move' (Hanna-Barbera style)making dioramas is neat but nowadays it's all done with 3D printers anyway. so then it's like commissioning artwork: it might look cool, but it isn't YOUR effort or creativity on display.
>>97367705>because you can't escape concepts like 'oh there's the end of the table'"Oh no, a winding tunnel leads to a sublevel, just when you mistakenly thought it was the end of the card sheet!">'his 3D printer only does x*y*z sizes'Not my problem. Get a decent printer or learn to divide your prints into manageable chunks.>or 'clearly that wall is going to move'As opposed to all the other modular walls, right.>making dioramas is neat but nowadays it's all done with 3D printers anyway. so then it's like commissioning artwork: it might look cool, but it isn't YOUR effort or creativity on display.If you want to put YOUR effort and heart into it, just do it by hand. If you just want a pretty tabletop piece without assigning any higher meaning to it, just print it out, slap some contrast paints on it, job's done, have fun playing. If you just want to whine how it's not artistic or something, again, not my problem.
>>97367598I mean there's nothing to suggest the gm didn't put down the map room to room during a game no? Apart from maybe the upstairs entrance forest area I geuss, that looks hard to dissassemble
>>97367598Mapping isn't fun.
>>97367598That is a sweet layout of a dungeon. One way to address the issue of the layout might be to cover the unexplored areas with a bedsheet or something similar.
>>97367606>place the rooms>>97367745>put down the map room to roomwhat if you can't see all the way to a far wall? torchlight, darkness spell, etc?a mapper would have to record that information accurately as it is revealed. these guys are metagaming whether they intend to or not.
>>97367749it is the most fun part of playing Dungeons & Dragons. and figuring out there's a secret passage or luring a monster into a trap because YOU have an accurate map is incredibly satisfying.'set piece' D&D was a mistake.
>>97367770>what if you can't see all the way to a far wall?You can feel the flow of air or just intuit the rough size of a room from microsignals the players are not privy to, and that most people aren't aware of well enough to formulate.
>>97367797you know what, you're right. even in pitch blackness we have some sort of spatial awareness.
>>97367701im utterly baffled by "referee", that has to be bait or something, right?
>>97367813>>97367701referee is a term from way the fuck back when games could reasonably accomodate 15+ playersrather than one main DM or GM you'd have referees who would govern smaller groups' interactions with the scenario
>>97367828that room aint holding more than 6 people at best.
>>97367830No way that's fitting more than 3-4 DnD players anon
>>97367701>>97367813Referee is an ancient term in tabletop gaming. It's rarely used outside of OSR discussion, but "game referee" is absolutely an old term from when the role was more "keep things running and intercede when there are problems" not being one half of a conversation. I do also hear referee (usually shortened to ref) used in LARP but that's a different kettle of fish.>>97367598anyway, there are some things I have to say about this concept. I've played through some of Gloomhaven, all of Descent (the recent one), a few campaigns of HeroQuest, and a campaign of Warhammer Quest in my days. Oh, and the Dark Souls board game. I've also run a very dungeon crawl-y 4e D&D game over tabletop sim where I made the map in chunks and imported it as images.I've also played games with no GM-provided map (and the GM had a map, not loosey-goosey "uhh you're in a caaaaave" stuff but the GM describing accurately where the players were based on his map behind the screen), where the players were expected to attempt to map things themselves.There are relatively few times when the overall enjoyment of the players in a more dungeon-crawly game is hampered by the lower potential for Wacky Bullshit made by those components.There were times that weird shit was pulled and it felt like MORE of a surprise because we didn't expect itfor example, there are a few times that the modern app-assisted Descent does weird shit to you that you don't see coming.Gloomhaven removes the map reveal part entirely, and shows you the whole setup in advance. NuDescent reveals the map part by part on an app, so there's no way to know in advance. HeroQuest has literally only one board with fixed walls, and just reveals doorways and blockages by placing door and rock tiles to make parts of the map unreachable. WH Quest I can't remember, it's been a long time, but I think it was partly randomly done as you explored as a GMless game.Only DS the board game sucked, and that
>>97367785>it is the most fun part of playing Dungeons & DragonsI can believe it.But that says more about D&D than mapping, lol.
>>97367833whats the ratio to pathfinders and gurps players.
>>97367834was more because there was no fucking variance at all, you have maybe eight "room" tiles all of which are just an identical square of nodes you move between, SOMETIMES with an obstacle for variety, and the enemy AI is so basic that a total lack of terrain variety also fucks things up. The whole game has a bunch of problems which go deeper than, but are exaccerbated by, the shitty lack of layout.In none of the games I mentioned above was there any ability to map as we go, since it was all represented by tiles or 3D terrain, but there was generally a good sense of exploration in nuDescent due to the amount of variety the developers worked into it. Overall a good experience, but it's probably gonna be left unfinished so get it on deep discount if you wanna play it. A good editor would be something I'd actually pay money (maybe 20 bucks) for to make the game community-focused and the components reusable better.Yes, all of the design stuff removes the ability to do mappin in the OSR sense, but I don't think that is necessary for a game to be good.
>>97367813sort of game-neutral and trademark-free term for 'Dungeon Master'. might even predate 'Game Master'/'GM'?
>>97367868I can't be sure but it may originate with pre-D&D wargaming itself
>>97367868so the anons have been explaining, but its so odd some shmuck with that kind of experience under is belt bemoans a map being presented to him.
>>97367598>>97367637Cant imagine how many hours and how much money in material and tools these took to make. They're highly impressive but it seems so not worth to make this to play TTRPGs in unless you host premium paid games or are already set for life financially.
>>97367598>there's a nice 3d-printed game for the whole dungeon on the table from the start of the game>the DM starts replacing pieces mid-game>turns out the map you bought in town was inaccurate, or even outright fake
>>97367875absolutely predates D&D with wargames. You used to get wargames where a neutral referee would adjudicate the scenario, since neither player might have full information. It's a different and fun way to do things sometimes.
>>97367918>are already set for life financially.>Most of these are paid dwarven forge stuffJust built terrain dumbass, come check out the /wip/ thread or any of the hobby generals. Terrain is low skill
>>97367749You're shit at the game
>>97367598As other anons point out, there are lots of ways to counter your simple problems.I use floorplans a lot as it tends to help myself and players to know where their characters are, usual when one drops a fireball or hand grenade, or when an ambush takes place. It helps players with limited attention spans as well as stopping the powergamers from somehow always 'teleporting' their character to safety."Um, no actually, my charcter wasnt at the front of the column, he was in the rear!" You dont have to stick just with 3d printed resin, there are lots of cheaper methods. You could always use card floorplans, (Just print off the card floorplans that roleplayers found popular in the last century, tiled flagstones in 1 inch = 5 feet are easy to search for), recycle floor plans from games like Spacehulk or Space Crusade, or even even just cut out coloured card or textured mats into the right shapes. Once you have a load, you can reuse them over and over.If you insist on 3d, there are papercraft dungeons you can assmble, or laser cut wood. Depends on how much time and money you feel comfortable to invest, really. Remember though, you don't HAVE to do something if you see a thing or a thing is suggested to you (product shills and autists have trouble with this concept). Nobody is right or wrong when doing things they enjoy, it's all down to personal choice.
>>97367785not gonna play rpg like how you played it in 1950s grandpa
>>97368162Zoomies are allergic to scratch building for pennies.
>>97368292We played it like that up to the late 2000s too kiddo
>>97367705>>97367770Like you I have zero interest in playing TTRPGs with modelled terrain, but that's where it ends3/4 of these are problems that don't exist, and the first is not a problem that anyone with half a brain can't think themselves out ofYou're self aware enough to realise "I don't like terrain" isn't going to be much of a thread, but shameless and undignified enough to try and make the thread work anyway with """problems""" a retard could think their way out ofbraindead fucking faggot
I've amassed a hardy number of sets with pic related over the years, snatching them up as they go on sale. I like them well enough, you can build them in segments that you lay out as the players explore, and it's too easy to put a wall piece where a secret door/entrance would be and snap it off if/when they discover it. My only issue is that elevation can be a problem to replicate (multi tiered rooms), and I personally prefer zoned combat, so they do tend to lose of value for me, personally. You also need at least 2-3 sets + expansions to really DO anything with them. With that said, my kids love to sit down with me and build a dungeon, which some have been put in "the book" for future use.
>>97367598My working theory is that people who make these photos actually don't play roleplaying games, they either just use them as an excuse for their terrain craft hobby or they use TTRPGs as wargames with theatre shit attached.Everyone who run at least one dungeon understands that its not about the map or terrain, its about discovery and immersion, otherwise you get an empty meaningless battle arena.
>>97368162your homemade foam terrain looks like garbage anon
>>97368426My working theory is that nobody on this board plays roleplaying games because you're such miserable unlikable losers that it'd be impossible for other humans to want to deal with you for longer than 20 minutes at a time. Hence why you have to post your opinions anonymously
>>97368426>or they use TTRPGs as wargames with theatre shit attachedThis is me but without the theatre shit.
>>97368507daring today, aren't we, anon.
>>97367770>what if you can't see all the way to a far wall?Then only lay down what they can see.
>>97367598Just don't look at the parts you haven't been to yet you metagaming scum
>>97367868Referee, umpire and judge all predate gamemaster in general English usage as well as in war game usage. Gamemaster was used in early RPG like Blackmoor, beating the use of referee in RPG by at least several years.The first use of referee in regard to RPG was probably in D&D where referee was used in the rule book about a year before Dungeon Master was invented. Dungeon Master was almost certainly inspired by and derived from gamemaster as used by Arneson in Blackmoor.Referee is mostly deprecated title though still appears in current editions of games like Traveller. It was widely used by TSR in non-D&D games when they couldn't think of any better title such as happened with Conan, Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Buck Rogers and Indiana Jones. Breaking with that trend TSR gave MSH a Judge and Top Secret had an Administrator.
>>97368507Isn't it hard to live without ability to hide responses you don't like by downvoting them, isn't it, anon?
>>97368510I mean, I approve wargaming with some light RP, I think it can be neat, we're running OSE as a Mount & Blade game right now. I just don't do that when it comes to dungeon crawling, we use overland is for wargames, and underworld or towns is for exploration.
>>97367598Buy a pack of opaque(black ideally) gift tissue paper and lay sections of it over rooms. Cut them to size if you want to cover things a bit more neatly, reuse slim cuts for halls. Works on flat and 3D maps.Costs maybe $10 so there's no excuse.
>>97367637I see a cool 80's citadel giant spider there on the left. love that model.
>>97368670Sorry I hit the nail on the head
>>97368732We wish you a speedy recovery
>>97367598>Someone does something fucking rad>Someone on the internet flails around until grasping some aspect to complain aboutFuck off and die.
>>97367598>>97367637>>97367705Okay, so don't use 3D terrain when running games at your table. Problem solved.
>>97368496Cope, projection, low IQ
>>97367813referee is the better term because it doesn't carry the implication of superior rank that game master or dungeon master does. The role is supposed to facilitate play, not control or direct it
>>97367918if you 3D print that in FDM it's pretty cheap and doesn't take that long to paint (first pic could be straight up bare FDM for the most part).
