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>tq
My beloved.

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Thread Question

Did all rares leak?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1oxjWS_JRlA6jA5y2_iGFsyRVtSUrk_1fNqDRevkI6R0/htmlview

I know hating shit is cool and liking shit is lame, but it's crazy to me how confident everyone is this won't be a good draft format. I've been watching Cheon and Nummy drafts and it seems more fun/interesting than Bloomburrow by quite a bit.

But regardless, these things usually take time: I was loving Avatar at the beginning but I kind of hated it by the end, same pattern with Dragonstorm (although I think a lot of people had dumb takes on it, including the LR guys. Falling back on boros/soup was good but there were so many neat decks you could draft), while EoE really got better the more I played it IME.

Blight seems fun, the whole Mardu blight-counter space seems interesting, and the Merfolk and Elemental archetypes don't seem particularly on-rails to me. I agree that it'll suck if Elves and Kithkin are dominant, but it's not looking that way to me right now, and at least in anything other than Arena Quickdraft these things tend to be self-correcting up to a point. But mostly I'm just annoyed with all the doomer overconfidence here. (And I want to enjoy a set with elves and merfolk and goblins before taking a few months off for all the turtle and Marvel shit.)

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What's the difference between these two images?

>>97404443
Your first mistake was thinking this general actually likes MTG.

>>97404444
The card on the right is better because most removal interacts with it and you have decisions to make about where you're keeping those counters in ways that effect the gamestate.

Planeswalkers were a mistake.

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how many tides is this faggot sitting on

I like lorwyn eclipsed and MTG

>>97404515
I like that there's two new cards with Drew Tucker art in it.

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>>97404264
For the Holiday

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>>97404264
>tq

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https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/lorwyn-eclipsed-vision-design-handoff-document-part-2
Cut Mechanics
Rainbow: Vivid but you need more permanents.(Your rainbow consists of up to five permanents, one per color.)
Cavort: It was expend but for damage. (You cavort 4 as sources you control deal their fourth total damage during your turn.)
Hunt: An enchantment aura token. (Create a Hunted Aura token attached to that creature. When the creature dies, draw a card.)
Leader: Companion variant.

Cut cards
They cut the uncommon DFCs and a cycle of DFCs lands that transform into creatures.
The command cycle was supposed to all be ally colors. The blue/black fairy and red/green
giant cards got replaced.
The Spirit Avatar call backs was a 5 monocolor cycle of the same pips (the white one would be WWWWW). You could pay an additional blight cost to use mana of any color instead (if you'd blight treat it would cost 3WW instead). Each one grants or mimics the functionality of a Shadowmoor keyword (persist, conspire, wither, chroma, or rebound).
At least one [REDACTED] version of a legendary character (Oona)

Draft Archetypes that changed;
Red-green: Ramp with Giants and Treefolk as the top end
Blue-red: Elemental typal—rainbow
Black-green: Elf typal—Hunted Aura tokens?
Red-white: Cavort—rewards for being aggro; works with wide Kithkin and/or single Giants
Green-blue: Rainbow

>>97404688
>Rainbow: Vivid but you need more permanents.(Your rainbow consists of up to five permanents, one per color.)
>Cavort: It was expend but for damage. (You cavort 4 as sources you control deal their fourth total damage during your turn.)
>Hunt: An enchantment aura token. (Create a Hunted Aura token attached to that creature. When the creature dies, draw a card.)
God they are so fucking creatively bankrupt.

>Leader: Companion variant.
Also wow great to see an admission that they haven't learned from the failure of Companions. At least they had the bare minimum good sense to cut this shit out, but them even entertaining the thought is a sign of their total failure as designers.

>>97404688
Wonder what the fuck the [REDACTED] thing is. Probably whatever's going on in Reality Fracture.

>>97404443
>crazy to me how confident everyone is this won't be a good draft format
I'm not saying everyone who hates something knows what they are talking about. But if you've drafted 20 years of Limited and are actually good at Limited, it's possible to form some kind of highly informed first impression about what kind of set looks fun and what set doesn't look fun. You're right Blight looks fun, except the execution is shit and you're not actually juggling the counters around on the board that would make it fun. Some people know when a mechanic is half-assed and doesn't work - like every single time vehicles appear in a set.

I really don't think you should be listening to anybody in the Magic influencer space - they are all bought by Wizards and they are financially dependent on an audience who in all likelihood fucking suck at the game like the majority of people who watch sports but couldn't throw a ball to save their life. Except Cheon, who is a millionaire already from working in the Carribean but it doesn't make him any less a shill because his life is about staying in Wizards' good graces so they invite him to cast. And I wouldn't know that unless I knew something about Cheon.

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>>97404264

>>97404499
lel

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>>97400559
Funny that even AI doesn't make Kithkins with long necks.
(not that they make them accurate, I still had to photoshop a bit)

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>>97404708
Reaping Willow is the keycard to make work. Since it has 3 pips of color your blight decks are going to have a black leaning.

>>97404416
loved playing with this when it was in standard

>>97404688
Excellent call on the cut mechanics if you ask me. Maybe cavort could have been cool because it tricks people into attacking. As for the cards, would have loved to see that demigod cycle instead of the strixhaven dweebs. More commands would have also been cool.

New Star Trek show is shit.

MTR Star Trek set looking like another flop

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Hey WotC!
You suck ass.
I could have designed a better Lorwyn set by myself.

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>>97404783
Here's my current PP (Pioneer Pile).

>>97404499
Flores was always a grifter, this isn't news.

still gotta wait 20+ hours to draft Lorwyn
lame

>>97404708
hey I have 20 years of drafting experience and am a top 0.1% Limited player
for several years now I've been going into every set blind. it's more fun and honestly has upped my winrate as well. once you're at a pro level then listening to other pros speculating on a format/card ahead of time is going to steer you wrong compared to just using your intuition.

>>97404708
I think a lot of the complaints are from people who are shit at Limited though. Like they see the stupid tribal 5-deck infographic and turn off their brains. Doesn't feel like there are enough elementals for UR Elementals to be just "draft all the cards with 'Elemental' on them" as a strategy, for example. And generally I think people have a lot of dumb takes every draft set.

Regarding youtube people: I don't recall either Cheon or Nummy actually stating much of an opinion on anything, I was just watching their drafts. Other than people with the special WotC preview server access, the most anyone else has is one draft at prerelease (where all the news was about the motherfucking ninja turtles cards) so the best way to actually get a feel for the set in play is watching people draft, and I don't find either of them particularly annoying or bad or anything. Do you think other streamers are better to watch for getting an early feel for the set before it's out?

Relatedly, I really miss Sam Black, felt like a lot of sets he was one of the only people pushing back on some of the dumb takes people had, is there another good pro for "this deck isn't bad y'all are just drafting it wrong" type of takes?

Also what's the dirt on Cheon out of curiosity?

>>97405022
>I think a lot of the complaints are from people who are shit at Limited though.
Your assessment is not correct.

>>97405022
Nummy bought a box of 30th and made a video cracking it. He is basically the only name in this game who actually openly admitted to buying that horrific product and you can find his video on YouTube. He can fuck off forever same with Kibler for marketing the product. Cheon is just independently wealthy, there is no dirt. He doesn't have to shill for Wizards but he does, which makes him worse than all the other influencers who have to play nice to continue playing the game for a living.

There is nobody trustworthy left in the Magic space. It is a sad state of affairs that there's no reliable way to upgrade one's skills but that's the fact of it. The game is 40 years old and nobody has actually produced an actual guide to developing one's Limited skills, there isn't even guides on how to draft sets anymore. All the articles out there are first-impression clickbaiting and search engines just don't work anymore and all the forums are gone. The entire Cube community is actually retarded - EDH players playing Limited essentially who have no actual competitive experience or skills.

There is no academic, fact-based, learning-focused way to learn this game. Arguably there never was but years of play and grinding produced skilled players but watching YouTubers just means subjecting yourself to the same grind and it will take you actual decades of fucking around, parroting mistakes from these influencers, and never knowing why you failed until you actually get good and you may never actually get good. And worse is the power creep basically fucking you and flipping games for your opponent despite you doing everything right.

It's fucked and you should go find a different game. Magic is among the greatest games in the world and you shouldn't fucking try to get good at it.

>>97405093
I use adblock, I'm not sure these guys are really benefitting much from me watching a couple of prerelease server videos.

But also, I'm not new, I'm returning (again) and I'm not particularly bad at draft, I'm just not a pro. Cards have so many more words on them these days (and so much tortured wording to make them work in commander) that it really helps to get a feel for what they do before playing when you're trying to be free-to-play on Arena. Obviously my results get a lot better after I play with the cards myself, but it helps a lot to see some actual games first. I can usually coast for quite a while on the weekly gold once I get started, but the beginning is rough.

Also not everyone is a moron incapable of learning from mistakes and reevaluating when things aren't working. Seeing someone make a mistake doesn't cement it in your mind. I actually think watching drafts and questioning the decisions people make is one of the best ways to get good. It helped me get pretty good at some other games. But like I wouldn't have thought to try the mill deck in Dragonstorm if I hadn't seen someone pull it off. And it was a blast when it worked.

>there isn't even guides on how to draft sets anymore. All the articles out there are first-impression clickbaiting and search engines just don't work anymore and all the forums are gone.
Yeah, I lament this too. Noticed it with EoE where Black Green articles all just parroted the press release despite the reality of cards in the set or how drafts played out.

>It's fucked and you should go find a different game.
I've tried Anon, but I keep coming back every few years. No one ever wants to play the other games I like (although these days no one wants to play non-commander either, so I just play online.) If you want to help me get more people into Summoner Wars or make the guys running Altered less retarded I'd love the help, but I just keep coming back to this dumb game.

>>97404264
Cant wait for the end of the Slopwyn Shadowpoop fad for more UB kino

>>97404818
looks fun

statistically, how more inconsistent is a 70 card deck vs a 60 card deck?

>>97405192
About 10 cards less consistent.

>>97405192
It depends on the pattern of play, reactive decks with more redundant tools will not be affected as much
However, solitaire decks (like the ones in standard right now) will be affected severely, since they more or less depend on you drawing the precise card turn 1 or 2.

>>97405202
damn

>>97404818
No Yorion?

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>>97405207
>damn

>>97405208
Nah I hate it.

>>97405162
>I'm not new, I'm returning
I want you to understand something, if you were ever good at Magic, you don't forget. All the time you spent at Magic in the past doesn't mean anything unless you actually got good. I have met people have played the game since Beta who still suck; I have met people who have left and returned multiple times and they were never good when they left. Limited today isn't any different than it was 10 years ago and 10 years ago before that. Anything learned about Limited 20 years ago applies today, in fact, "the nuts" back then is simply the norm today and even being spoonfed easy Limited wins this way people don't learn anything.

I'm not trying to insult you but I'm saying you're starting from nothing. Knowing the step and phase orders and casting spells and knowing how to play Magic doesn't mean anything - anybody can do that. I'm not saying you're incapable of learning but you certainly didn't learn anything the last time you played Magic. And because we are not going to talk ever again past this conversation I can only assume you're going to struggle greatly in this dumb fucking journey at getting good at Magic, and you're going to quit again just like all the people I've seen "return" to the game because they couldn't handle the dumbfuckery of trying to learn the game from a community of 100% incompetent retards who know nothing except loving the sound of their own voice.

I've told you the situation is fucked. Nobody is going to fucking tell you that. Nobody playing the game in real life, who are needed to teach you how to succeed in this game, is going to tell you how fucked it is because they are all fucking awful or sycophants. Nobody online, nobody at stores, nobody is going to fucking do anything to help you they are just all going to steer you in the wrong fucking direction because the community has been parroting horseshit for the past ten years.

I wish you the best of luck but you are fucked.

>>97405093
I could make a pretty comprehensive series on getting good at Limited (at least something that could get an average player to the point where their EV is high enough to 'go infinite' on Arena) but without a following it would be an immense amount of work for something that at most 20 people would watch and 0 people would pay for.

>>97405192
There's almost never a good reason to run more than the minimum number of cards for your format. There are enough cards in the game that SOMETHING is your worst card, and you're going to draw more of that and less of whatever the card you wish you were drawing instead is. One big reason besides the math to shave your deck down is mental weakness though: you could be playing a better deck, but you choose not to because you can't bare to part with all the cards you love. Just suck it up and cut a few, you'll be better off for it, and your deckbuilding will be better for you getting over your emotional tendencies overriding your deckbuilding. Like with writing, kill your darlings.

>>97405233
>if you were ever good at Magic, you don't forget
One of the best parts of the game.
I was an esports fag since near the beginning (starting with SCBW) and you lose that fast shit as you stop playing and and get old. Was a borderline pro Dota player back in the day but haven't fired up the game in a decade and would be too depressingly shit at it now to even play a pub.
Meanwhile I can always walk into a FLGS or draft queue and dumpster everyone no matter how much time I take off.

>>97405233
>I'm not trying to insult you but I'm saying you're starting from nothing.
This conversation took a weird turn from me asking who you thought was a better drafter to use to watch a couple pre-release drafts of the new set to get a feel for the cards ahead of time.

Generally I quit because I get sick of WotC's predatory bullshit. Which, yes, I know has only gotten worse and will only continue to get worse.

Glad to have an actual conversation but it feels like this took a weird turn in terms of what you thought I was asking about.

But regarding getting good, I reject your premise that watching good players is worthless. I admit I'm nowhere near the top in magic, but I was in the top 20 at Dominion for a while, and one of the ways I got there ways watching video of other top players games and picking apart their turns. You learn a lot of things from why people do what they do, and surprisingly often you find mistakes even in high level games. And having that debate of "am I being arrogant or did this guy just fuck up" is itself fruitful I believe. I'm only mediocre at chess, but a lot of chess players (particularly the 50s and 60s world champ Botvinnik) talk about basically the same process with annotating chess games. Watching games is useless if you just absorb shit passively, but I refuse to believe it's pointless if you're engaging with the game and questioning the decisions being made. And you haven't actually offered an alternative, even to my comment about if anyone has the sort of approach Sam Black used to have.

Anyway, I'll try to have fun getting fucked (until I get pissed off enough with WotC again, probably around 6 weeks from now when Turtles launch), thanks for the chat.

>>97405320
I've always found those prerelease draft videos to be borderline useless. Stakes are 0, competition is mostly terrible content creators, and no one knows anything about the set.
17lands has essentially replaced specific set guides for drafting once you know how to use it so people are desperately waiting for the data to tell them what to do for the first couple of days (which is why those initial days are the best for any format).
I even stopped watching LR set reviews years ago because, fundamentally, no one knows anything meaningful about a Limited format until they get 10-20 drafts in.

>asks you to learn commander with xir
what do you do mtg?

>>97405383
The card-by-card set reviews I've always found almost completely useless. People are wrong half the time with any non-obvious judgement call, it's hard to keep all the cards in mind without additional game context, and yeah, no one knows anything and most of the cards are some variant of "not great but playable" which can mean a bunch of different things and is so context-dependent as to be useless.

But actual games I like, because stuff as simple as what combat tricks exist in the set, or how does this build-around card actually work come up, and are easier to get a handle on when you see them in a game context. Like I find I get much more benefit from seeing some games where someone gets wrecked by a combat trick than just reading all the instants and trying to remember them. Getting wrecked MYSELF is obviously the most educational, but I get a lot out of seeing this stuff play out. And there are always little synergies that come up that it helps to be aware of but wouldn't be called out in any kind of summary.

But like, I didn't think Cheon or Nummy (my 2 examples earlier) were particularly terrible and was finding them helpful as people to watch play the game. People disliked them, which is fair enough, but I was wondering if anyone was better in terms of both draft skills and actually hovering over or reading cards out loud as they played, as well as talking out thought process. Even if the thought process isn't perfect, it helps to hear I find. I used to really enjoy Sam Black, but he's retired from limited (and never posted that many gameplay videos anyway.)

Regarding LR, I listened to their Tarkir: Dragonstorm episodes and I kind of grew disgusted with LSV over the course of the set. Seems like he was just checked out and repeating week one common wisdom without reevaluating anything for the whole lifetime of the set.