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Which summon is the most romanceable?

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>>97436305
>How much use does Craft get in your games?
Feels like there's someone mainlining Craft every other game. I personally am playing the only character I have ever seen which has done crafting as a side gig instead of going mainline charge into it (I kind of fell into it sideways since I was mainlining thaumaturgy and sorcery and CNNT is useful for that in Demake).

>What do you use it for most?
I personally have only played the one crafter and it's this one right now, where half of what I make is alchemical products and 90% of the rest is mundane crafting stuff like clothes and containers for my alchemy from shitty components since I'm playing a dead broke desert barbarian.

As a Storyteller most of my players have used it to make artifacts and nothing but artifacts. To be more specific what they make is usually weapons, tools for crafting better, manses, and automatons, in that order.

>What homebrew rules do you use for it, if any?
I am playing Demake's rules right now, which means splendors in a sorcerous working lite sort of system. I have run base 3e Craft, sanctaphrax's craft rewrite, Essence's ventures, and 2e's base Craft. Base 3e is pretty bad, sanctaphrax's is the one we kept coming back to for 3e, ventures worked okay but the difficulty is definitely not equivalent to the reward, and base 2e craft made a lot of sense and was actually dang good. Base 2e and sanctaphrax's rewrite share a bit of an issue where using in-character time (days, weeks, months, years, etc) be ruinous when games go fast, and the rewrite on session-based time can be so fast it gets ridiculous.

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>>97436513
In terms of what I've seen, it's Mara, Erembour, Ligier, and Sondok. Personally, I think the number one is Ligier for sure.

>>97437955
Mara might be hot, but she's probably one of the worst demons to actually romance. I'll give you the other three, though.

>>97438001
Admittedly I've only seen it from people who pretty obviously can't see between the clearest lines, or who just form their own opinions quickly and refuse to change when they read further.

So I can smash a behemoth's skeleton to dust with my diaklaive but I can't break open a wooden gate with it? Or is using weapons to do feats of destruction hidden in another splatbook somewhere?

>>97438688
Only in 3e and Essence. In 3e, artifact weapons only provide the +1 dice bonus from exceptional equipment to feats of strength such as destroying things, regardless of whether they're artifact whips or goremauls. In Essence there is no bonus.

In 2e the rules for translating damage to feats of destruction are in the corebook on page 153, and in 1e the rules for it are on page 239 of the corebook.

Presumably the newdevs just forgot to add in the rules for some reason. Most likely because real damage got shifted into being initiative-based.

I just simulated a 1 on 1 between a solar exalted (9 CC dice, heavy melee weapon, 5 motes, 10 health levels, defense 5, hardness 3, soak 3, CC excellence and star cleaving crater) and a blood ape (9 CC dice, unarmed, 7 motes, 10 health levels, defense 5, hardness 4, soak 6, murderous blow and Divine Excellence: combat.) in Exalted Essence. The Solar got his shit kicked in 6 rounds, and he wasn't able to damage a single hl. Is this normal?

>>97438861
Kinda. It's mostly the Soak. Soak is a stupidly effective stat when it works, and in a 1v1 it's hard to counter, but the Solar's answer should have been to build up 10 Power then Reveal Weakness (maybe even do it twice, I'm unsure which way works out better) and dump the rest of his Power ASAP. If you just had them slam into each other then it's never going to be a contest, the Blood Ape will take no damage and the Solar will die crying.

Also, Star-Cleaving Crater is pretty much always bad, in that it's never a good move to use it, unless you also have Heaven Thunder Hammer or some other forced movement option that doesn't ruin your action economy.

That said yes the blood ape probably does win against the Essence 1 Solar even with good play unless they're properly optimized in some way. It's hard to call that a bad thing, though, blood apes are supposed to be pretty strong. Two blood apes would lose to two Solars, or even two Dragonblood, if they have good team play though. They don't have the right options available to work together well.

>>97438931
Blood apes are pretty middle-of-the-pack, albeit combat-focused 1CDs. They're not weak, but something's wrong if one can defeat a Solar with any combat capabilty on his lonesome.

>>97438861
Let me count this out properly with average rolls, actually. I'm curious whether one or two Reveals is the best play and I suspect it's two. I'm also unsure if the Solar can outpace the damage well enough. I'm going to assume the weapon is two-handed because almost all the heavy melee weapons are, and because it means we can't cheat out accuracy dice by swapping to the fist on withering attacks. Let's also assume build power isn't a thing, even though it really is a thing and would matter here - we don't know the Solars best BP stats, so the ape won't use it either. I don't know where the wound penalties are, so I'm not doing that either.

Actions, S is Solar and A is Ape:
t1 S: withering for 9 base +5 Excellency +2 Stunt vs Defense 5 = 8 vs 5 = 4 Power.
t1 A: withering for 9 base +4 Excellency +2 Stunt +2sux Accuracy vs Defense 5 = 9 vs 5 = 5 Power
t2 S: withering again, same stats = +4 = 8 Power
t2 A: decisive for 9 base +4 Excellency +2 Stunt +2sux Accuracy vs Defense 5 = 9 vs 5 = 4. Damage pool is 4 threshold + 5 Power + 2 autosux from murderous blow = 6, -3 Soak = 3 damage inflicted
t3 S: testing the line where he goes early; Reveal Weakness (-3 Power) for 9 base +5 Excellency +2 Stunt vs Defense 5 = 8 vs 5 = blood ape -3 soak for 3 rounds.
t3 A: withering again, same stats = 5 Power
t4 S: decisive for 9 base +5 Excellency +2 Stunt vs Defense 5 = 8 vs 5 = 3. Damage pool is 3 threshold + 5 Power +3sux from weapon damage = 7, -3 Soak = 4 damage inflicted
t4 A: decisive again, same stats = 3 damage
t5 S: withering for 4 Power
t5 A: withering for 5 Power
t6: S decisive since reveal weakness runs out this turn, no time to charge; 3 threshold +4 Power +3 sux from weapon damage = 6, -3 Soak = 3 damage inflicted
t6 A: decisive for 3 damage
t7: S charges Power, A withers
t8: S charges Power, A decisive to kill Solar

Fight would go either way based on RNG. The ape benefits a lot here because his average withering is in a sweet spot to turn on murderous blow.

>>97439110
Your Solar, frankly, didn't have much if any combat capability. He has an Excellency and that's it. He was also stupid as all hell. Essence cares about tactics, it's not like 2e where you just grind on each other or 3e where you just wither and hope someone comes out on top. You actually have multiple actions you can take and attacking is not the most valid by default. See >>97439114.

>>97439114
Running through the other lines: Two reveal weaknesses means the Solar attacks on turn 6 and does 5 damage before dying, while waiting for Reveal Weakness on turn three does eight damage overall, but the second hit goes through one turn later.

>>97439114
Optimizing this fully isn't realistic because it relies on using average rolls 100% of the time and having perfect knowledge of the enemy statline. It would involve the solar dropping his weapon and using clashes. In a clash the Solar and blood ape dice pools are the same, so the Solar always wins the clash because of the Solar Advantage that says they win ties. It's a weird line because then the ape's optimal play is to invest minimum 3 Power instead of all 5 so that they can build enough power over time to attack multiple times in a row, while the Solar clashes with the cheapest available gambit (Distract, for 2 Power) so that they can get ahead of that and clash multiple times in a row. Eventually the Solar wins because both of them can only store 10 Power maximum, which is enough for three turns of attacks for the ape while the Solar would still have four Power left over after three turns of clashes. Solar builds back up faster, eventually they get a Reveal Weakness in and clash with decisive damage on the ape's last attack. I think, I THINK, the Solar manages to chip down the ape after something stupid like 30 rounds and taking zero damage. It never happens in a real match though because you'd have variance in your rolls.

What's the best way to build a Dawn that wants to learn and use as many martial art styles as possible? Which styles have good synergies with each other?

>>97439337
Best way is probably to pick a central MA that fits your character concept and build around it. I going to personally recommend Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style, a Sidereal martial art whose capstone allows you activate multiple form charm simultaneously, and makes all such MAs share form weapons and armour. It's something powerful to bulid towards.

>>97439337
>What's the best way to build a Dawn that wants to learn and use as many martial art styles as possible? Which styles have good synergies with each other?
If 'best' is optimising purely for number of martial arts styles, then you need to start with 2e and go for Swallowing the Lotus Root. That lets you take terrestrial martial arts for half price, letting you pick them up super fast. The average TMA is 8 charms at 4xp each and you get about 5xp per session.

But that's actually only about on pace with taking martial arts in Essence, which are usually only four charms long and the official messaging is that you should receive a Minor Milestone (the only way to get MA for everyone not a Sidereal) every two sessions.

And then... well, there's the black arts of 3e. Black art #1 is to go into persona charms under socialize, which let you take ~5 bonus personas each of which has access to ~75% of your experience total for ~300% extra value. Unfortunately, martial arts in 3e cost a hell of a lot more than they can in 2e/Essence, but you have so much xp this way that it doesn't matter. Black art #2 is having a friend / Ally with Flowing Mind Prana juicing you up with as much experience as they can get. This is the blackest art and can theoretically take your xp levels over 9000% normal, so use with care - your training times may actually be the biggest issue, here.

>which styles have good synergies with each other
White Veil Style has synergies with anything which has Touch effects, which I always find fun. White Veil + Citrine Poxes is something I've always wanted to have come online but never got the chance for. Meanwhile, Emerald Gyre in 3e has a charm which echoes an attack... on every target it hit. This has ridiculous synergy with AoEs, because every target hit in the AoE will shoot out their own AoE that obliterates them and everyone around them. I like combo'ing it with Single Point or Righteous Devil.

>>97439364
I thought Siddie MA needed a tutor?

>>97439402
They do

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>>97439402
just get a tutor lmao
how hard can it be
i hear they have training camps for illuminated ones like you

>>97439402
They do, but it's something you can build towards. Take a few points in Mentor at chargen so you can capitalise on it later.

>>97439402
In 3e, you just need to be punched by a sid a bit.

>>97439425
step 1: get jumped
step 2: punch harder
step 3: ???
step 4: profit

>>97436305
Crafting is the only relevant skill in this setting. The only thing that remains of solars is a bunch of artifacts, and even those scraps are enough to be pivotal throughout Creation's history.

>>97439509
If fighting skill didn't matter we'd still have the Primordials around. Or if not them then the Solars would still be in charge. And if we didn't have social skills the Exalted would've never had the Creation-Ruling Mandate there would be no surrender oaths and Malfeas, there'd just be dead Primordials.

If we didn't have sorcery, No Key have been around to stop the Balorian Crusade early.

I've been thinking of a way to have both reincarnation and incarnation of Celestial Exaltation be true
You use a metaphor like a Celestial Exaltation being like a gem, with each new Chosen being a facet cut in that gem. That "facet" would be them even after they die, retaining personality, memories and skills, when not being accessed they sleep for lack of a better term, an eternal continuation of them. Lytek's job goes from cleaning out memories to suppressing these facets, so that the new Celestial Chosen isn't overwhelmed by their past lives. Because the Exaltation becomes part of you, and you become part of the Exaltation, you are both a reincarnation and incarnation.
For gameplay I would say that it's a way to justify learning things like martial arts without having an appropriate teacher. (SMA would probably be excluded from being taught this way, at least to Solars.) You could have storylines where past lives don't want to accept their death, and you have to find ways to suppress their influence, or in exchange for learning things like from a Mentor you perform last wishes for them.
It probably needs some more polish to the idea, but I think it has legs.

>>97439727
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Trill

>>97436305
>How much use does Craft get in your games?
I'm a Twilight, so a lot

>What do you use it for most?
Whatever I want. Weapons, manses, armour, 3x battleships, an biotech replacement body for herself, a Titan. All fun things to make and use against my foes. In the background she also makes things like her clothes, most of her food, etc... she's a perfectionist that distrusts staff in a corrupt country.

>What homebrew rules do you use for it, if any?
Sandact's homebrew rules. I would never dare touch RAW craft rules again after using them once.

>>97439727
They are already; my theory is that "reincarnation into adulthood" exists because of the scrapped metaplot, it made the setting to "rushed" for the stories the devs wanted to tell.

>>97439727
I think this is a pretty good idea. In play, I think this should be around 3-4 personalities influencing the PC. They'd probably the ones with the either the greatest feats or last holders.

>>97436670
>Cue this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlE83G8ODWw

Daft Inspiration for a Solar Circle: The Bad Guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6iZKa7X9vc
>Dawn: Piranha
>Zenith: Shark
>Twlight: Tarantula
>Night: Snake
>Eclipse: Wolf

Neato Exigent Idea:
>Exigent of Lytek
>Basically a Therapist for other Exalts

>>97440076
A more playable version, "chosen of Serenity, with Lytek as a mentor".

>>97440076
>>97440258
Given how desperately Lytek is to hold onto power, he doesn't feel the type to diminish himself by making an Exigent

>>97440629
Unless they are in a situation where they will die anyway, no god really as a reason to create an Exigent.

>>97440783
Given how demigods are a thing in every version, yeah.

>>97438931
>First circle demon is equal to an essence 1 Solar.

What the fuck is wrong with this setting. At least you don't actually start at essence 1 but my god, Yozi just have solar level spawn. That's hilarious. You can't pile them up either because turning them into a battle group just makes them weaker.

god solars are such pussies, even first circle demons can fight them. lamo.

>>97441078
WW never really balanced things out, and nobody is entirely sure how powerful the titular exalted are meant to be.

>>97441166
It's just funny to me that people in this thread vary so much on this. On one side you have people who think even third circle demons shouldn't be able to challenge solars at character gen - then you have people who say that starting solars would get solo'd by Blood Apes both in lore and mechanics. There are millions of blood apes, mind you.

I don't think I've ever seen that in any other setting before. Maybe Mage from World of Darkness. It's a tad fascinating. Although, my reading comprehension is poor and I didn't realize he was talking about essence specifically instead of just exalted as a whole.

>>97441177
>>97441166
Maybe it has to do with how inconsistent things are, like how mortals could stomp character creation solars by just ganging up on them in 2e.

>>97441177
3e wanted to make both true at the same time, with the introduction of the supernal mechanic.

>I don't think I've ever seen that in any other setting before
It is because Exalted aped too many contradictory fantasy works, by doing so we end up with a schizophrenic setting.

>>97441201
>Maybe it has to do with how inconsistent things are
Yes, even the post exaltation bit is contradictory, it is both "you blaze with divine sun mighty, and can kill any mortal with ease" and "you glow a bit, and is slightly better than before".

>>97441201
I've seen this both ways though. No amount of mortals would matter because they become battlegroups. I've also seen people say that each mortal gets there own action so all it takes is like 20 people to kill a ton of things you wouldn't expect them to based on how the game is advertised.

I'm not even trying to be mean here it's actually really interesting. You get this in Mage with how people run that game, where some tables have mages being able to do anything while others are super -super- strict on certain things. I am honestly struggling to think of any other comparisons for how the fandom views power levels. Not an anime, not another game, not even something from a fantasy verse.

Maybe the people who take JJK shit posting really seriously and think that Gojo is a fraud. I don't know. I'm grasping here.

>>97439754
>I think this is a pretty good idea. In play, I think this should be around 3-4 personalities influencing the PC. They'd probably the ones with the either the greatest feats or last holders.
It would definitely be an optional thing to have a PC learn from and be influenced them beyond the occasional flashback to the past that Exalts normally get

>>97441399
Mage? Ascension or Awakening?

Ascension rules are too esoteric, to the point no two tables play the same game.

Awakening 2e was designed so you have to keep a close eye, so your players don't disintegrate all opposition by abusing creative use of the first dot of a given arcana.

>the game is advertised.
Like many other WW games, exalted as sold, and exalted as intended, are two completely different games.

>Gojo fraud.
He is one of those "too strong to exist" characters, similar to Mahoraga, he deflects the allegations.

>>97441630
They all lose to the anti-spirals anyways. Definitely Goku. Gojo might be able to beat Kid Goku but I'm still banking on Kid Goku. He can blow up mountains and cities, Gojo can only blow up a few blocks.

>power levels.
I am not autistic enough for this.

But talking about exalted, what is your favorite encounter with a Raksa?

Does anyone have a copy of the Agents of Yu-Shan fanfcomic that isn't dead as a doornail?

>>97441240
>Yes, even the post exaltation bit is contradictory, it is both "you blaze with divine sun mighty, and can kill any mortal with ease" and "you glow a bit, and is slightly better than before".
That's just an in universe explanation for minmax or shit builds.

>>97441737
>But talking about exalted, what is your favorite encounter with a Raksa?
I honestly haven't seen anyone use the fuckers in any meaningful way.

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>>97441078
>At least you don't actually start at essence 1
You do in Essence. Also, I wouldn't think it crazy to think that a literally just-this-moment Exalted Solar with an Excellency, an Ox Body, and who doesn't even have 5/5 combat stats would go down to a blood ape. It's even more so in Essence since Solars don't get more dice from excellencies, only cheaper ones. This entire fight >>97439114 involves the Solar spending zero motes total and the blood ape spending and recovering recovering one mote per round for net 0 movement on mote pools.

>>97441737
>power levels.
>I am not autistic enough for this.
I will say that it's nice that for once the power level discussion is entirely within one edition of Exalted, and entirely within the context of it's mechanics, rather than trying to mishmash fanon lore, canon lore, fanon mechanics and canon mechanics from multiple editions together.

>>97442704
I'm not in favor of maximum Solarwank, but I definitely think a Solar should be able to defeat a blood ape without optimized stats and with fairly minimal combat investment. Maybe not without any difficulty and maybe not multiple blood apes, but defeating a single fairly low-kevel demonic footsoldier shouldn't, in my opinion, be a hugely difficult feat requiring a dedicated Exalted combatant to reliably pull off.

>>97443057
>I'm not in favor of maximum Solarwank, but I definitely think a Solar should be able to defeat a blood ape without optimized stats and with fairly minimal combat investment
And they can? You say 'A Solar' as if all Solars are the same. A Solar this fresh and badly built would die to a blood ape even in 2e.

>>97443057
An unoptimized solar can't even beat an optimized mortal.

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>>97443101
>An unoptimized solar can't even beat an optimized mortal.
>an unoptimized solar circle sorcerer can't even stop an optimized mortal from stealing his girl

>>97443101
Dex 3, Melee 3 and an Excellency is already enough to put your maximum dicepool above an optimized Dex 5, Melee 5 + Specialty mortal. Obviously you'll run out of motes eventually, but even that obviously unoptimized level of combat ability is enough to give a Solar a good chance of defeating a mortal swordmaster.

>>97443141
In every edition other than 3e a mortal would be able to optimize much further than raw stats. I don't know why you'd give the Solar their Excellency and assume the mortal got nothing, especially when literally nobody has been talking about 3e. The discussion was very explicitly about Exalted Essence, with a small diversion to 2e in the context of 'not even in 2e would this work'.

>>97443158
What kind of optimization beyond stats are you thinking about for the mortal, anon?

>>97443072
A blood ape even in 2E is kind of scary
They have Excellencies on their 9 Acc Claw attacks, and Principle of Motion with 5 extra actions on top of that
A mortal grandmaster will die to that easy one-on-one, if they don't get to go first and get lucky

Going into combat in 2e without a Perfect Defense is just begging to be turned into sticky paste. That's why 3e withering attacks

>>97441737
>what is your favorite encounter with a Raksa?
Ever since I found out 3e has a spell to bind them, I'm working on a character with a battalion of them manning a sky ship like its Pirates of the Caribbean on crack

>>97443241
I can't tell what calculation blood apes use for their Excellencies

>>97443253
Which doesn't even work because you can alpha strike ambush.

>>97443177
>What kind of optimization beyond stats are you thinking about for the mortal, anon?
Well, in 1e/2e they'd be enlightened and a heroic character with access to a bunch of stuff from thaumaturgy to martial arts to merits and more. In Essence it kind of depends on what you mean, because antagonists don't have dicecaps and mortal PCs run on effectively the same rules as Exalted, mote pools and charms and everything.

>>97443241
>A blood ape even in 2E is kind of scary
I know. That's why I'm pointing out that a poorly built Essence 1 Solars dying in a 1v1 to one wouldn't be strange.

>>97443288
Don't spirits use their Essence to calculate Excellency cap? I might misremember that.

>>97443288
According to Roll of Glorious Divinity, in 2e Spirits could add up to Essence dice to dice pools.

The average Solar has no combat skills at all. Dawns are 1 out of 5 castes and by far the least influential one.

>>97443345
The average Solar does have meaningful combat skills, don't be obtuse anon. They're not combat optimizers but it's the Age of Sorrows and life is cheap. Almost everybody's got some experience with someone beating someone up and taking their lunch money and it's a very clear necessity that you need some fighting skill to not have that happen to you all the time. All Solars are also aware that they're being hunted and that most everybody who knows what they are will try to sabotage or kill them. Enough direct combat skill to beat off mortals is probably something 90% of Solars have, with 90% of the rest having some kind of alternative plan like sorcery or stealthing away.

The other hand is that being good at combat, like actually meaningfully contesting combat optimizers good, is something probably something only ~10% of Solars are doing. Solars who wants to get strong for reasons like, they need strength to do something, or they want to get strong enough that nobody will be able to stop them doing whatever they want, those aren't going to be optimizing for combat, they're aiming at higher Essence or better social status. The only real combat wombats are the ones who're in it for the love of the game.

>>97443377
Statistically speaking, no, the average solar doesn't.

>>97443345
Favored abilities exist, your caste is only 50% your primary skillset

>>97443390
There are only 5 combat skills out of 28 total.

>>97443389
What might thise statistics be based on?

>>97443401
Sure. There is no reason to assume that all Abilities are equally commonly trained, however, or that ratings in Abilities are on are normally distributed. Combat Abilities are pretty important for survival and consequently presumably more common than, say Bureaucracy or Sail. Looking at canon character writeups also points to most Exalts being unoptimized but still having meaningful combat capabiliities.

>>97443389
The average Solar has some skill in every Ability. You might mean median.

>>97443401
Solars learn more than one skill? Obviously?

>>97443401
Since when are there 28 abilities in Exlated?

Melee/Brawl/MA, Dodge, Integrity, Resistance, Socialize. these are the defense abilities right?

>>97443762
Artifacts, sorcery and martial arts?

>>97443916
The first two obviously aren't abilities.

>>97443762
I tried to work it out, but Endurance/Integrity and Brawl/War/MA still only makes 27 total, and Essence has 14 abilities but about half of them are new so that doesn't work either.

>>97443345
I find this incredibly stupid it by itself.

Even if you were an exalt that came from a background of no combat skills, you're going to realize very quickly as a Solar/Lunar that powerful people want your head so learning some self defense so you're not impaled by a few mortal guards and a blood ape is critical. You don't need to go full army slayer, but some basic essentials are required.

If you're a Dragonblooded or Sidereal then you get the full battery of training.

Imagine being the Unconquered Sun, you're fighting a war against your Primordial enslavers, and one of your primary weapons, the Solar Exalted, emerges with a talent for bookkeeping, riding horses and writing poems, but no combat potential.

>>97444762
Technically, it is far less since nights have dodge and Zeniths have resistance.
But yes, Solars were poorly designed in an attempt of aping D&D classes.

>>97444906
Unfortunately, not every caste could have been a twilight, but Eclipses are really useful for logistics.

>>97444976
This is just an issue of classless design I feel. DnD and other systems have hand holding methods to ensure a character doesn't fall behind in combat. In Exalted, WoD, hell even M&M there's none of this hand holding so it's completely possible.

>>97445011
I'm not really sure if we're even being fair here. Exalted combat is based on charm combos and charms. You don't ask "can a solar roll to kill" you ask "Can the solar use X charms or charm to kill when he rolls." As far as I can tell this is true for all editions.

>>97445011
WoD gave each clan a physical/combat-survival discipline, accidentally making some clans too good combatants.

The problem is that 1e thought it was a good idea to give Dawns/Fighters a monopoly over aggression abilities.

>>97445052
It's not even about magical abilities though. I mean just base math. DnD has BAB which a character gets, and most classes since 4e have some scaling method to fire out basic attacks with reliable accuracy.

Exalted doesn't have this. If you don't invest in a combat ability, you will be shit at it, full stop. "Invest" in this case being just getting dots in the actual ability.

>>97445055
The dawn's being solo combatants is an issue yes. It's why I'm thankful 3e allowed "here's 8, pick 5"

>>97444906
My brother in Sol, which caste do you think wrote up and bound the surrender oaths?

>>97445072
I dunno, there always seems to be something people should be able to do in combat. I also can't think of an edition where getting 5 in at least one stat that you can "hit" people with is really hard.

This isn't DnD where a fighter attacks four times. This is DnD where everyone is a level 15 wizard who can attack four times. Also, some exalted charms are flat out insane.

It's just very interesting that people can go "Blood apes can kill a starting solar" to "A starting solar should be able to handle a blood ape, tough fight" to "A blood ape would get destroyed by a competent starting solar". This is for all editions desu.

>>97445122
The only purpose an exalt with Dex 3, Str 3, and 0 investment in any of the Dawn abilities has in combat in Ex3 is to serve as an initiative pinata for the enemies.

Now in ExEss you do have other things to do, even if you can't beat a blood ape in combat.

I'm puzzled to why you find this interesting. If you make a shitty character they get their skull caved in as other anons pointed out.

>>97445072
>The dawn's being solo combatants is an issue yes
It is less combatants, and more "monopoly over offense".
Nights are also combatants, being the thief/rogue analog.
1e!Twilight too, despite being the casters.
Zeniths are the clerics, but they forgot to give them miracle workings.
Eclipse is the caste that they didn't know what to do with.

>>97445161
>Eclipse is the caste that they didn't know what to do with.
Serves them right for making a bard class that wasn't even a jack of all trades

>>97445177
It is noticeable in the "inspirational media" section of their caste book, I was surprised by the lack of mentions of Sinbad, despite it claiming that Eclipses were meant to be merchants.

I need help!. I'm looking for a document that had a long picture with art of various demons and their accompanying stats, the stylings I remember imply 1e or 2e. In particular I remember there was a picture of a Luminita (deer made of thread) and a demon whose head was like a ball with some eyes embedded into it with legs. I think the document I'm talking about was a compilation from 4plebs or something that also had other antagonist stats, including statblock and picture of the Deer with a human face.

>>97438793
your in depth knowledge and source quoting are a wonder to behold, thank you for your dedication.

>>97445583
Now that I remember, I was referring to the Hopping puppeteer, but the art I'm describing is NOT from Games of Divinity (Which also has demon pictures that span half a page)

>>97439417
yes! please do! now sit in this massage chair that is obviously not a brainwashing chair!

>>97443177
not him but even without enlightened essence, you can pump an heroic mortal quite a lot. (at least in 2nd ed)

alchemical potion like wind fire, warding talisman, perfect+enchanted weapons and armor. honestly, the motes of mortal are $$$$.

>>97445072
>Here's 8, pick 5
What are you exactly referring to?

>No, even normal humans are a huge possible threat to Solars.

Still amazed at how much different people fluctuate on how powerful people are in this setting.

>>97445140

I mean, the idea that there are solars with three in all combat stats without a single charm to help them in any combat situation is one of the things that people don't consider. It's the same with people not thinking they'll get out action econ'd by 50 mortals. I've seen it argued here that it would be fifty individual actions or just a really easy fight because it's only one battle group of mortals.

Plenty of examples of this and how people run tables for this game vastly differently using the same exact ruleset.

The Blood Ape in 3E might be scarier than 2E
>Principle of Motion lets them just flurry any two actions, grapple-savaging with a boosted double9's/8's
Huh, I never noticed before, but gods lost Principle of Motion, but demons kept it?

>>97445733
3e gives you more options for caste abilities, whereas in older editions you were locked into just five per caste

>>97445780
The whole system is built on multiple nameless combatants being formed into battle groups, if you run demons as individuals instead then of course they win through action economy, because the system isn't built on that.

>>97444906
Conky wasn't an idiot and knew that against sapient concepts that were Primordials you'll need more than just brawl.

Exsmple that ITIRC: SHLIHN was taken out of first decade of war after she has recoved a wtitten message from an Eclipse that put her in a state of complete inaction.

>>97445807
I give 3E a lot of shit, but there's some good changes like that in there

>>97445818
I'm not sharing any opinions here man I'm just saying how I've seen tables played. All this stuff varies a bit depending on editions anyways.

This also doesn't take into account all the social charms and soceries you can use but some tables here flat out ban those. The amount of crying here over social charms for example is incredible and people write straight paragraphs about how it shouldn't be considered for stuff. For -all- editions.

>>97445780
>It's the same with people not thinking they'll get out action econ'd by 50 mortals.
If you're trying to run it realistically, then 50 mortals couldn't all hit you in a sibgle combat round, even if they crowd around only so many could actually take a swing at you at a time

>>97443101
why would an unoptimized solar even exist ? how would they exalt in the first place ? makes no sense

>>97446311
it's called a bow retard

>>97446470
Assuming these are not newly conscripted, but fairly standard soldiers, and not elites, and our Solar also has a bow, then units tend to break when they take about 10% losses, so our Solar with a bow just has to kill 5 of them to break them. Which I feel is easily doable for a young Solar.

>>97446431
most canon solars are unoptimized

>>97446549
well that's just because the writers are idiots that hate the idea of "exalted"

>>97446563
nope, you simply misunderstood what exalted is all about

>>97446571
You are punished if you start as a generalist, specially with the charmset designed with supernal in mind.

>>97446660
I see "optimized" as relevant Attribute 3-4, relevant Ability 4, and maybe a specialty, super optimized would be those both at 5

>>97445850
To be fair, 2e writers exaggerated by giving Solars "Usurpation Avoidance Technique" and "Racial Profiling Prana"

>>97446571
dealing with the consequences of success ? you have all this power yet you can't save the world because the mightiest ant is still a single ant

>>97447004
Actually, Exalted is about creating sick artifacts and dabbing on the non-crafters.

>>97447020
>"Oh wise and powerful Fydian, he of unsurpassed dexterity and peerless intelligence, forger of artifacts endowed with puissance and mystery, please gift upon to me armor to guard my frail body."
>"I suppose I can, my foolish Adamant Will. But before that, praise me more."
>"Give me the damned armor, Fydian."

>>97447020
That's a funny way to say being an infernal and making all your enemies allies with social charms.

If you don't have infinite N/A rated artifacts in your possession and another infinite being actively worked on in the background (including infinite Dual Magnus Prana clones), are you even a Solar?

>>97447123
But I can shoot a bow...

>>97447095
That's not fair.

>>97447148
what a shame, our community kills itself a little more every single day. Other, better threads have actually porn being posted on the blue boards.

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>>97447148
What was deleted?

>>97447161
You need to be subtle, like a romantasy/romance cover.

>>97447230
I had a brain fart and posted an ecchi pic

>>97447362
All the best threads have ecchi pics I don't know what the fuck is wrong with this one. Ffs look at all the blue board Gwen threads.

>>97447371
If it was an Exalted ecchi art I would have left it, but I just posted it on the wrong board

>>97447390
Well, you shouldn't have. I was in the middle of responding to it. Shame on you. I will never forgive you and we are now enemies for life.

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I like the cover art for Games of Divinity

Exalted art has never not been horny hasn't it.

>>97447557
Ex3 has massively dialed back the horniness. 2e had a woman how gave heart print cotton panties and nipple piercings to everying she drew for Exalted, despite being told not to.

>>97447230
Bro what's up with all these romantasy covers that look kind of the same.

>>97447557
Which is good, I like cheesecake. Like >>97447567 says, 3E has less horny art, which I dislike.

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A problem I see with Sorcery is that, it really tries to sell itself as "overwriting reality through will" thing and it actually sounds cool, but on paper it looks really lacking. (Applying to how it is treated in corebooks, especially Exalted Essence)
In the position of a player that purchases Sorcerous Initiation, he picks his shaping ritual, and now he has to pick a sorcery spell. There's 5 options. Oneiromancy, sterilizing food while mildly damaging undead, turning your arm into a wood claw, using a tree as a security camera or acquiring heavy bones that makes you take less damage at combat. He can look forward to purchasing similarly odd and very unrelated AND situational spells for the first circle of universal sorcery, and the next circles will give him even less options.
That is also another issue. For example, the Essence description for Unbreakable Bones of Stone says that you sing the song of earth off-key, so spirits react to it and correct it, causing the effect "Hey, I wonder what would happen if my exalt sang the song of [another element]. What if I learned the song of each color and made it so I can paint compositions the size of a mountain in the side of one? What If I make my army's march be part of the song of the metaphysical concept of rage and righteousness and use it to empower them?"
In that regard, I think this is a big void in the system.
Anybody has ever had similar experiences or thoughts?

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>>97447592
Some are ai, others are to disguise the contents, and others are just Fabio's legacy.

Sometimes you get stuff like Icebreakers that cause controversies because of how deceptive the cover is.

>>97447629
You can make your own spells, if you think there's a cool niche that fits into the power level of the Circle you just have it to get it approved by your ST

>>97447634
I just read about it. It feels wrong to look at it now.

>>97447665
Yeah, I would know, because I am the ST that's organizing an Essence game for first-time rpg players, and I thought they might want to push buttons the system just doesn't have.

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>>97447557
Yes, it is a legacy from WoD.

>>97447680
It is surprising how the modern female romance can uneven even /d/.

>>97447686
Then just design more spells and give them to your players to choose from? I don't think I'm understanding your problem.

>>97447686
If I remember well other elemental dragon claws were published in a magazine.

>>97447699
Well, I meant that RAW, there are not a lot of options, and the design philosophy for them makes each spell very different from each other, and often with uses that might not come in play. I know a competent ST will create situations where the players' unique skills can shine, but as it is, the system feels pretty bare bones.

>>97447781
If it is 3e, it is because of the promised sorcery book.
We also don't have the rules for manses

>>97445583
Are you talking about 2e's Books of Sorcery 5, Ghosts and Demons?

>>97447629
>There's 5 options. Oneiromancy, sterilizing food while mildly damaging undead, turning your arm into a wood claw, using a tree as a security camera or acquiring heavy bones that makes you take less damage at combat
Um, anon, you skipped the other five (more counting modes) spells that aren't sorcery-only, but which are available to sorcerers.

>"Hey, I wonder what would happen if my exalt sang the song of [another element]. What if I learned the song of each color and made it so I can paint compositions the size of a mountain in the side of one? What If I make my army's march be part of the song of the metaphysical concept of rage and righteousness and use it to empower them?"
The sorcerous working system exists to allow exactly this kind of freeform thinking. It's not as easy as just changing one part of a spell but it does follow that formula if you want it to.

>>97448125
>the other five (more counting modes) spells
*7
A first circle sorcerer using only the Essence corebook has twelve spells to choose from, which is the same number that is in the 3e corebook. Pillars of Creation has another five.

There just isn't enough space to give sorcerers a sufficient variety of spells without a dedicated book for it, which is why in 1e/2e they did have dedicated books for it, and it's a big part of why sorcery's pretty bad in 3e. Essence is a lot better than 3e both in that it actually has decent roles in combat (3e's sorcery has a strong focus on combat effects despite being awful at it because of how you need to charge up for every spell, while Essence lets you start the scene with you Will charged up) and a better prioritization towards utility effects.

>>97448103
Yeah, I found it. That's it, a thousand thanks.

>>97448258
There's a bunch more in chapter 5 of Compass of Celestial Directions: Malfeas, in case you need it for something.

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>>97448258
Forgot pic >>97448428. You mentioned a deer with a human face, which is this from Compass Malfeas.

>>97448449
Exalted needs its very own butt demon.

>>97448075
Is that supposed to be a Legion soldier on the right

>>97448471
That is Mara

New Celestial Exalted (Essence 1)
1-2 dice of combat investment, ie none, blood ape eats their ass for breakfast
3-4 dice of combat investment, Dex 2 + Abi 1-2, blood ape probably still wins
5-6 dice of combat investment, Dex 2-3 + Abi 2-3 + Spec, much better odds of winning fight with judicious Excellency use
7-8 dice of combat investment, Dex 3-4 + Abi 3-4 + Spec, can win pretty handily unless they job hard
9-11 dice of combat investment, Dex 4-5 + Abi 4-5 + Spec, no problem beating blood ape
This is all considering not using Willpower/stunts/environment/non- weapon equipment which would probably make it easier

>>97448786
When you do stuff like this, maybe consider specifying your edition. I'm guessing this is 3e, in which case it's a fucking awful breakdown - if you think four dice plus specialty plus nothing is beating a blood ape I've got a bridge to sell you.

>>97448908
None of it matters if you're not taking into account the charms they're using. Exalted is charm based combat after all.

Apparently, from what I remember at least, some people here think that any build can one shot basically anything so long as they use an ambush attack. I don't know where these crazy people come from, it's just what they say.

>>97448908
Also i think it's Essence because he's starting at essence 1.

>>97448916
>Apparently, from what I remember at least, some people here think that any build can one shot basically anything so long as they use an ambush attack. I don't know where these crazy people come from, it's just what they say.
This part isn't crazy, but it's only relevant in combat optimization, and it assumes you get the jump on the enemy, and that you beat their join battle (which is something every combat optimizer pumps the shit out of), and that you beat their awareness vs your stealth (when awareness is something every combat optimizer pumps). They tend to just abridge over all of that under the assumption that someone doing stealth will always win, and in that context yes the benefits of ambush are pretty significant - the enemy can't defend themselves against the first round of attacks, after all.

However, you could just as easily assume that all of your spells are up and you're going into combat with Death Ray charged while fighting under Rain of Doom and conclude that sorcery is the best, so I don't really take them too seriously.

>>97448922
He mentioned Willpower and specialties so I assume not. You start at E1 in 3e too.

>>97448075
>i come to negotiate under a flag of truce
>that's a funny way of saying 'please rip out my lungs and feed them to me', but I'm happy to oblige
Another tragic misunderstanding

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>>97448449
I'm uncomfortable with how this image makes me feel

>>97449239
coward, there's a full thread for this

>>97448480
It'd be crazy out of place if it was, but it wouldn't be that strange for a Legion officer to have the medieval knight type armor. It'd be an artifact or three they got from their patron/House.

>>97449235
In fairness, if the Eclipse did actually show up under a flag of truce you could easily count that as a non-verbal socialize or performance based persuade/inspire that calls for peace and/or for calm minds to prevail. That's already a thousand times better than most Eclipses who tend to show up in emotionally charged scenes already expecting everybody to be civil and for them not to be stabbed regardless of what they say or how they say it.

>>97449380
That's too low key for an Artifact. I doubt armor like that is technologically beyond the Realm's mundane metallurgy, but it doesn't really look like an infantryman's armor, nor like other depictions of legionaries I've seen.

>>97449515
>That's too low key for an Artifact
That's a bad way to judge whether something is an artifact or not - Restless Wind, Arada's daiklave in the same picture, is an artifact despite being almost completely unadorned. The knight-looking fellow has a big flouncey plume on his head and his armor's engraved, that's more than enough. The color's not off if it's white jadesteel, and the parts we can see of it (chest+shoulders+head) isn't any less fancy than the exact same area we're given as an example of reinforced breastplates in 3e core. The other reason judging instantly based on vibes about appearahce is that for all we know the guy's rocking a twelve inch codpiece wrought in the shape of a dragon with a red jade tip that lets him cum fire.

>>97448471
https://youtu.be/3jOcyUs-zko?si=TaFpGORwfidqsgCW
https://youtu.be/Mx7l_vhQUjM?si=B3dPrlWKS3upzNqs

>>97449554
We also see another like him from the back in the foreground, so I think the artist just didn't know what the design of a Legion soldier was supposed to be

>>97448931
Yeah I was going mostly based on offensive ability, and assuming 2E/3E dice, though I guess you could get up to 13 base dice for 2E if you dumped all your specialties into one thing.
Plus like you mentioned, combat isn't a white room in-game and terrain/ambush/etc matters, and offensive dice isn't everything when you need good Join Battle too. Stunts can make a major difference, a 1-3 dice bonus, for 2E channeling your Virtues can give you a big bonus. Why didn't they let you channel your Ties/Principles in 3E that would have been neat.

>>97447567
>2e had a woman how gave heart print cotton panties and nipple piercings to everying she drew for Exalted, despite being told not to.
Kinda based

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>>97447567
>2e had a woman how gave heart print cotton panties and nipple piercings to everying she drew for Exalted, despite being told not to.
Weird considering what they published about the first Dragon-Blooded.

>>97448159
>Starting Options
My bad, I forgot about universal spells and PoC. I reflected a little, and I don't think starting spells are all that limiting; they're practical, and they give players starting points for their own workings, and custom spells.

>Sorcerous Workings
I really enjoy this part of 3E and Essence. But I've overlooked its potential.

>On "lack" of content
Yeah, I see it. Essence Players' Guide is still coming out next year, so maybe I shouldn't have been too judgmental, and next time more thorough. Thanks Anon!

>>97448449
Yeah, it is it as well, thanks anon. Now that that's done, I wonder where are the heroine dinosaurs mentioned in the old 1d4chan page.

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>>97449389
Or if you are not too confident on that, purchasing Ox-Body Technique. You know,

>>97453794
the Guild has six of them, pissing out heroin

>>97453794
1e Manacle and Coin
>beasts of resplendent liquids: Strange immortal animals created by the Exalted in the First Age to serve as living drug factories. Once, there were hundreds of these great lizards, each ingesting raw materials and pissing out concentrated drugs mixed with their urine. Today, the only beasts known to remain are two anagathic producers controlled by the Realm and seven the Guild controls that eat opium and process it into heroin.

>>97454011
I hate this because I know they made it piss because literally no one would care if it was milk. Also, practically speaking, you'd just keep diapers on them and then get it from that. Zero chance they'd use a bucket.

Great art tho.

>>97454080
The writeup says they don't move unless they're not fed, so you could just stick a catheter in them and call it a day

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>>97454080
I am pretty sure it is a reference to Kopi luwak, and how ancient cultures used animal waste. there's also the small possibility of it being from another fantasy work, but it is small

>>97454124
Night soil and people collecting animal urine/human urine goes way way way back. Every culture or whatever had people who did that. I'm being dumb because I have no idea how you'd collect animal piss back in the old times.

It just more comes across to me as "How do we make this drug thing more edgy? I know, PISSSSS." I mean, milk is right there. But knowing Exalted if anything had drug like milk it'd be human shaped demons or something else weird.

I could 100% see demon fembois with drugged breast milk and I don't know I feel about that. eh....

>>97454218
>I could 100% see demon fembois with drugged breast milk and I don't know I feel about that. eh....
Not really, despite the edginess inherent to white wolf, they go in shock mode if a fan suggested it again.
Like when somebody pointed out the "demon abortion farm".

>>97454301
It'd be an Exxxalted community thing, not a main community thing. But yeah, they don't do fetish stuff as blatantly anymore.

I am 100% sure someone on the team involved with Sol has a huge daddy fetish, so that's something at least.

>>97454733
It was actually a NWoD thing; somebody scared a writer, by pointing out that, thanks for the way conditions and cover/contract interact, Demons could farm exp through the pregnant condition.

Can I make an artifact with Craft (Carpentry)

>>97454902
artifact boat

>>97454910
And what would it do?

>>97455033
It can drink water and eat soil you put in its hull to repair itself

>>97455098
Where the fuck am I going to get soil on the high seas?

>>97455100
Compost your shit and waste food in barrels

Possible boat powers:

Go fast.
Go underwater.
Go air.
When battle flag showing, bright light blinds enemy.
When battle flag showing, enemies surrender and give over loot more readily.
When battle flag showing, enemies get cancer.
When sailing boat can make automatic feats of strength checks to plow through soil and solids until it gets to water again.
When sailing boat can teleport to water sources.
When sailing the boat automagically makes rivers wherever it goes.
Boat is waifu.
Boat is farm.
Boat lets you sail over horizon into hell or yu-shan.

Tons of others I bet.

>>97455164
Transform into a giant warrior with its sail as a cape
Split into two smaller ships
If you feed it sacrifices it goes faster
It has a dragon-head prow that spits fire and can rotate
Can row itself for a short amount of time, longer if it gets a hearthstone

>>97455220
If we want to be a bit weirder then say...

The people on the ship can't die even if they take fatal damage. This does nothing to actually heal the sailors.
When the banners are up and an exalted channels motes to it it summons an fleet of ships from thin air/its mirrored hull to follow it.
It has a dragon head and it literally a dragon, capable of growing vast wooden wings and taking to the sky if properly fed.
All sea life in the area obeys the captain of the ship when you're on it and you get a bonus to all sea based life.
No water based ship may sail in the same direction as you - those who attempt it are sucked underwater and crushed.

>>97455164
>>97455220
>>97455220
Ship's sails don't just make use of wind, they control wind. Useful for sailing, but also for messing with your enemies in combat.
Ship's a moving shadowland that traverses Creation and Underworld alike and raises people slain on it as undead sailors.
Ship just big, unfeasibly so.
Ship summons and is moved by an echo of Adorjan's power rather than any wind of Creation, is itself protected from the Silent Wind, and can deploy it as a weapon and/or hazard against others.

>>97455271
I had 'sail to any port in five days' on a sailing ship, which let it get to other worlds, skyports (even collapsed ones), from the Inland Sea to the Dreaming Sea, and to Sunken Luthe. I just really wanted people to be able to roam around a lot without killing the campaign's pacing.

>>97455386
>Ship just big, unfeasibly so.
Fair Folk Freehold as a ship that's a mile long on the outside and a whole-ass country on the inside.

By closing all windows and going below deck and traversing only by map the ship is able to be in multiple places at once. They still travel, half ephemeral yet visible as they sail. If they're acted upon or act upon something, or if they go above deck, they can instead choose to materialize at any of its possible locations. It can sail to captains essence x 3 places at the same time.

The ship is built by sidereals and can sail the winds of fate. It can appear wherever there is at least a puddle of water, it showing up being quite explosive for everything around it when it does so - like an impacting comet. It's almost indestructible but it sails on fate, meaning only the most skilled sidereals are capable of making it move - and only to places where fate is strongest or where something dangerous to fate will appear. There is only one.

Ship become smoll.

Canon shoot eggs that are actually demons termites.

The ship... is made of fire?! fuck i don't know...

>>97455520
>By closing all windows and going below deck and traversing only by map the ship is able to be in multiple places at once. They still travel, half ephemeral yet visible as they sail. If they're acted upon or act upon something, or if they go above deck, they can instead choose to materialize at any of its possible locations. It can sail to captains essence x 3 places at the same time.
Hey, I remember that manse power. Always did wonder why manse-ships sailing around isn't a thing, it'd make seafaring chronicles much cooler if that was the default expectation instead of artifact ships (which would make more sense for surfboards, windboards, or jetskis, or suchlike). I know that the esoteric metaphysical answer is that geomantic flows don't move around but I mean really you already have travelling demesnes and mobile manses and capping a demesne is supposed to stabilize it even if people mess around with the site so what gives?

>>97455742
...Isidoros has a moving hoofprint that people live on from what I remember. Cities that "magically appear" in multiple places can probably be explained with manses and sorcery as well.

>>97454218
It's not edgy, its just silly. Its okay for things to be silly sometimes.

>>97455742
>travelling demesnes and mobile manses
There really shouldn't exist
At least traveling demenses shouldn't, a mobile manse that "fuels up" at open demenses might work from a lore standpoint, but it could also just be an artifact flying building that serves the same purpose and powers

>>97457172
If you're making a building it should really be a manse rather than an artifact

>>97457245
Well yeah, a house-boat (artifact flying building) is never going to be as good as a normal house (a manse), but it's mobile

>>97457293
>house-boat
Vehicle, not a building

>>97457314
>Vehicle, not a building
A vehicle you can walk around in and use as a house should really be a manse.

>>97457328
People live in buses, doesn't make them buildings

>>97457333
I think a bus would be very edge case, could go either way.

It says a lot about /exg/ that arguing if a bus is a building is one of the most sensible arguments I've seen here.

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>>97457637
The line between building and vehicles, can be very blurry at times

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>>97457661
I think buses are edge case mostly because there's a fairly wide range in what would be considered a bus. London's double deckers like picrel I'd lean more towards a manse, and most other kinds of bus with multiple compartments I'd probably think the same. On the other hand, I could see an argument for the Magic School Bus with a pretty straightforward power and idea of what it can do leaning more towards being an artifact.

>>97457698
I'd definitely not handle a bus of any size, or, say, a train, or a ship, as a Manse. Not necessarily even all magical buildings - if you have, like, a seed of green jade that'll sprout into a comfy hut when planted, with the hut then withering to nothing and leaving behind only that same seed when you tap a specific part of it, well, that sounds like an Artifact to me.

>>97457733
Even if you can live in an artifact bus/train/ship and count it as a home, it's probably not going to have all the bells and whistles that a powerful manse provides you

Manses grant motes, artifacts cost them. Manses are home, artifacts are work. Creation has no third places

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>>97457733
>I'd definitely not handle a bus of any size, or, say, a train, or a ship, as a Manse
Why? Do you just think all manses should be immobile, or do you disagree with them sharing similar roles or something?

Personally, I would. Anything that looks like it should be able to channel and redefine essence at scale through geomantic principles seems like something that could be handled as a manse, to me.

>Not necessarily even all magical buildings - if you have, like, a seed of green jade that'll sprout into a comfy hut when planted, with the hut then withering to nothing and leaving behind only that same seed when you tap a specific part of it, well, that sounds like an Artifact to me.
And I agree on this, but in the same way that not all magical buildings should be manses, not every magical non-building should be an artifact (or product of sorcery). The idea of manses is something that's more widely applicable, in the same way that artifact rules have been applied much more broadly than personal tools, weapons, and armor.

>>97458054
>Why? Do you just think all manses should be immobile, or do you disagree with them sharing similar roles or something?
Not him, but manses to me is that they should be almost entirely immobile, and I'm not so hidebound to say there can't be a mobile manse, but a mobile manse-vehicle should have large drawbacks acting as a manse.