Should Clerics actually exist? Paladins already fulfill the 'holy warrior' archetype, and there's not really any historical analogues for what the Cleric is. When holy miracles did supposedly manifest in mythology, it was never in the manner that the Cleric does it on the battlefield, and they certainly were never known for magic (any people that were known for 'magic' apply to the other classes moreso).
>>97442678Turpin, despite being one of Charlemagne's Paladins, fits the Cleric class a lot better.
>>97442678you could ask the same question with slightly altered details for every class, einsteinyou're retarded and just want to argue over the autistic thought of the hour
>>97442678>historical analoguesApart from fighters what class does have one?If you don't want Clerics in your game for whatever reason, just say they aren't allowed because you don't like them - don't hide behind "historical justification."
>>97442688Turpin was credited with no miracles and never partook in battle
>>97442693>Apart from fighters what class does have one?Paladins are based on Catholic holy crusadersDruids are based on Celtic druidsBarbarians are based on Viking barbarian berserkers Wizards are based on Merlin
>>97442707>>97442738Yeah, but that doesn't fit the way OP qualifies it.
>>97442678The way I divide them is that Clerics are a means for their god to speak, while paladins are the blade of their god.Clerics preach, they spread their faith, they do deeds in the name of their god.Paladins are warriors. They smite the foes of their god with divine power, and take action on behalf of their god.I also view it as rangers are to paladins what druids are to clerics. Druids hallow the grounds of nature and tend to its needs, speaking on its behalf, while rangers strike down those who fail to heed the warnings of the druids with fury.
>>97442738Neither Sorcerers nor Warlocks are INT based.
>this thread againHey fuckheads op is just reposting shit from the catalogue to farm replies. Get your shit together and stop taking the bait for once in your 80 iq lives
>>97442738>Sorcerers are based on the concept that a magic person might have some fairy or demon in their family backgroundReally they're based on capeshit. They're the capeshit class.
Clerics should exist but they shouldn't be armor-wearing melee classes. That's where you run into the issue of them fighting for the same niche as the Paladin. They should be the divine magic equivalent of Wizards/Sorcerers; cloth-wearing squishies who stand behind the front line. Like how World of Warcraft does it. If you want to be an armored melee "Cleric" then that's what the Paladin class is for.
>>97442923Except clerics are also warriors which is the entire problem. In essentially every iteration of D&D they get access to good weapons and armor
>>97443013Then just strip them of weapons and armor. JRPGs have a far better example of what a Cleric should be. It's what I did. In my revised 2024 content I stripped them fully of heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, with a base light armor/shield proficiency. In my own system, the cleric stand-in as a full caster suffers a penalty to damage with all weapons and cannot wear any armor at all.Furthermore, clerics cannot match the martial damage of a Paladin even in modern D&D. A divine smite (or a similar spell that boosts the power of weapons), outdoes any weapon damage a cleric can do. They are objectively not as good as warriors.
Replace "clerics" with "priests" and it becomes much more obvious in which way they differ from paladins.
>>97442738Clerics are based on the Knights Templar, Van Hellsing, and figures like Odo of Bayeux, which is why they wear armor and didn't use bladed weapons originally (since Odo used a ceremonial blunt weapon due to being a noble). The very first cleric that kicked off the entire archetype was an antagonist NPC going after a vampire PC. In later campaigns, players wanted to play as the same thing that NPC was.Paladins are based on classic chivalric knights in shining armor, which is why they had such high stat and moral bars to clear and were merely an enhancement to the fighter class (which represented less perfect knights, among other things) rather than a whole class to themselves.
>>97442678>historical analogues lol sorta This was the original cleric.
I see your point anon, however the game needed a full divine caster for balance. That's the end all be all. If Psionics were a core game element, there would be three classes specifically for them too.I agree that they overlap a lot, but basically they fill different roles in a party/combat aspect.
>>97442678I'm a cleric. I've caused miracles through praying to my dark god and have trained myself in a bit of knife and club combat.
>>97442678>Should Clerics actually exist? Paladins already fulfill the 'holy warrior' archetypeYou realize Clerics were there first, right? Fucking retard.
>>97442678To me, the nature of Domains seems like it should be something awared to a character rather than building a whole class around it. More so considering that clerics are typically type casted as robe wearing catholic priests in full garb. I mean, why would the god of thieves have a full on robe wearing friar tuck looking dude instead of a Rogue?Simiarly with the Paladin who is type casted as the sword and board knight who is but an aspected fighter for all intents and purposes. I think it would be interesting at least that if the title of Paladin is awarded to a character it should be because they fit the criteria of whatever force they serve and swore allegiance to without having to fit a single way of being.
>>97442707Ah, yes, the historical person known as Merlin.
>>97442696>never partook in battleBattle of Roncevaux PassDon't care if the Song of Roland is historical truth or not, he partook in battle in that story.His sword was called Almace in other stories in case anyone cares about that bludgeoning weapons only gimmick.
>>97443011>>97443031As >>97446384 mentions, they were there first. Serving as secondary combatants backed by a slower casting and attack roll progression and worse weapon proficiencies, because having just the one dedicated front-liner has obvious issues keeping the squishy Wizard safe. Which is almost exactly what the 5e Paladin ended up as. You get a better distinction out of 4e that could be better emphasized, or you could reverse the 3e decision to turn Paladin into a base class for lack of core rulebook intra-class variance because subclasses now exist, but it's REALLY awkward keeping them separated with their current arrangement.>>97446745Building classes as specialists in broadly-useful mechanics is pretty sensible for economical rules usage, and the issue that the source is highly varied can be fitted to subclass mechanics, which would handily allow returning Druids to an example case of specialty Clerics. Or you can go back to 4e's Power Source/Role setup, just with the Power Sources actually having separate rules at least partially available to classes outside them instead of everything being AEDU.
>>97442678Julius Caesar, Augustus, and the other roman imperators were clerics - the highest priests of the roman cults.
>>97442678>Should Clerics actually exist?Yes, they predate paladins and are more flavorful than them while also attracting fewer DEUS VULT larpers. All the best elements of Paladin were simply stolen from Cleric.
>>97442678Should paladins exist? Clerics already fulfill the holy warrior archetype, and there are no historical analogues for what the paladin is.
>>97442693This.The historical precedent of wizards and druids giving thieves and musicians superpowers is a fucking hilarious appeal to authority.
>>97448196Indeed, paladins only exist because munchkins wanted to be a full fighting man while also having full casting without any down sides. It's the ultimate fucking anathema to class balance, and it's the prime original example of why class niche protection is so fucking important.
>>97442678>there's not really any historical analogues for what the Cleric isAny kind of traveling missionary or character of myth/legend blessed by the gods to go out and do work in their name.They aren't 'holy warriors' they 'holy men', it's just that they're a milieu of all 'holy men' archetypes.
>>97446745>the nature of Domains seems like it should be something awared to a character rather than building a whole class around itHYTNPDND
>>97446825>sword was called Almacestill a mace
>>97446745>I mean, why would the god of thieves have a full on robe wearing friar tuck looking dude instead of a Rogue?The Nameless 13th/Crooked Warden is a pretty nice example there in that while he's a general patron of thievery and crime, his Clerics distinguish themselves by pretending to be that of other Gods. That way their whole service is that of a scam artist and their thievery comes at the cost of the rest of the pantheon's faithful.
>>97446943>As >>97446384 mentions, they were there first.Doesn't matter to me at least. For the sake of a more varied play experience as well as better game balance as far as I'm concerned to make Clerics into Priests and strip them of their armor and weapons akin to JRPG priests/healers and make them a support-focused backline class and have Paladins get the armor and weapons and become frontline defenders. Not only is this better for player choice variety, but it prevents clerics from being completely busted and superior paladins as they are in 5e/2024. I am also a strong proponent that full casters should be squishy and weak, and suffer when trying to use or be incapable of using weapons at all, facilitating teamwork between them and the martial characters.
>>97450073>teamwork requirementsNothing quite like having the bitch class that can’t do anything except suck off your friends at the tableTry pf2e, sounds like you’d enjoy it
>>97446760>>97448216Britanny reporting: Myrdwyn/Merlin existed just like Arzhur/Arthur, it's just that the legend is still known whereas the deeds of the real man are lost to time - we merely know that he was some kind of mad prophet living in the forest, possibly a druid (druwwyd just means wise-man, aka wiz-ard).As for musicians, they were akin to druids in old stories, with magical powers - unsurprisingly, the most famous in our people's tales is named Merlin.D&D archetypes are just too broad, if someone wanted to play Merlin, a magic-user or a Bard could do the job, or a Warlock with God as his patron.
>>97450301>Nothing quite like having the bitch class that can’t do anything except suck off your friends at the tableAnd keep them alive because the system doesn't have 5 trillion death saves like 5e or whatever baby mode dogshit you play. And is the only class that can apply buffs to allies. And is the only class with any form of healing magic.>Try pf2e, sounds like you’d enjoy itPF2e doesn't do this at all. It has dogshit vancian casting on its cleric and spellcasters overall blow total chunks. It also fails to provide a system to encourage cooperation between player characters, it's too easy to be a generalist.Honestly, it sounds to me like the only games you've ever played are D&D and its clones, where a healer is useless and buffs are negligible unless they're called Haste. Have you tried not playing D&DFinder?
>>97442707These have as much to do with historical analogues as clerics with actual priests.Crusaders didn't cast spells, didn't lay on hands and burned down Jerusalem which isn't really that lawful. Not to mention your basic fucking fighter fits the archetype much better.Druids didn't use sabers (or other weapons), didn't wear armor were never associated with transforming into animals. A Wizard fits the archetype much better.Berserker rage was never an actual historical thing and vikings wore metal armor. Again, basic fighter is more like an actual viking.There is no legend where Merlin does have the garbage D&D wizards do. His most well known exploits are basic illusion, putting a sword in the stone and transporting an army over large distance. Also moving stones used to build Stonehenge from Ireland.
>>97450375>i play morkborg
>>97442678Rethink of them less as holy warriors and more as biblical prophets and it makes sense. Pray to God with faith that He'll help, something inexplicable happens that accomplishes precisely what you asked for. Read the stories of Elijah and his apprentice Elisha and you'll find miracles ranging from drought to infinite food to death by bears to resurrection of the dead. Not even counting the likes of Hezekiah's appeal while under siege and a single angel demolishing an army of over a hundred thousand soldiers, or anything that happened before Moses or Jesus.
>>97450073>For the sake of a more varied play experience>>97450375>And is the only class with any form of healing magic.Pick one. Either you're viscously gutting the variance of the play experience by pidgeonholing an entire character slot into hard support with basically nothing else that has only one option to fill (and if you really insist Bard is a far better fit), or the support casters PLURAL need something to distinguish how they take the spotlight for themselves because you ain't fitting a good variance in healing mechanics in D&D resolution.Even with the Cleric's very first implementations being second-line combatants they HAD the reputation of being "The Support Class", and decades of design teams trying to force playerbase to understand they were not actually pidgeonholed into it accrued so many self-only buffs we ended up with CoDzilla. And when WotC tried forcing clear party roles down peoples' throats like this, we got 4e design choices that were instantly lampooned as MMO bullshit.There is in fact an established track record demonstrating that what you're talking about just doesn't work for mass-market TTRPGs. It can work for a niche tactical skirmish game, but D&D has been bloated into too much more than that no matter how many of its sacred cows leave its roots stuck there.>It has dogshit vancian castingWhat mechanic do you suggest to have similarly non-fungible attritionable assets for casters?>and buffs are negligible unless they're called HasteHave YOU actually looked at PF2e encounter dynamics? Because dumping your slots into buffing a Fighter is ridiculously commonly the numerically most reliable contribution, since they fucked saving throw effects.
>>97450884>What mechanic do you suggest to have similarly non-fungible attritionable assets for casters?Why should the ability to cast spells involve non-fungible attritionable spells? "Power currencies" are more common in fiction, and gambling systems are more fun in play.
>>97452549>Why should the ability to cast spells involve non-fungible attritionable spells?So that the resultant decisions can be more than "run down the meter"? Having A of B and X of Y instead of X you can use for Y and Z means the DM can pressure a specific capability without gassing out the laundry-list of random utilities, and vice-versa regarding gassing out the random utilities without pressuring the bread-and-butter healing, and it means that only SOME random utilities conflict with SOME healing instead of ALL healing drawing from ALL random utilities so on the players' side of preparations they have a conscious choice between more specific recovery-from-harm and general problem-solving.>and gambling systems are more fun in play.Not for dungeon-crawls and Domain play, their risk-reward assessments HEAVILY rely on a reliable sense of what you can do.
>>97448188ah pontifex maximus, the same title currently held by the pope
>>97442678>and there's not really any historical analoguesProtfags are so funny.
>>97452840The problem with non-fungible resources is that you don't really make resource constraint choices while playing, you just make them during prep time. A spellcaster should have to choose between using their resources on random utility or healing or combat, and moving those choices to the heat of the moment makes those choices easier to understand and increases player agency while also providing more compelling moment to moment drama.>their risk-reward assessments HEAVILY rely on a reliable sense of what you can doTheir traditional risk-reward assessments, perhaps. Have you considered that gambling based magic systems, especially those with elements of attrition, can also have a satisfying and interesting assessment of risk and reward? You wouldn't say that the potential to miss in combat or have enemies fail saves ruins these modes of play, so why would gambling based magic systems?
>>97458354>The problem with non-fungible resources is that you don't really make resource constraint choices while playing, you just make them during prep time.Which is the purpose of it. See also the bean-counting logistics of early overland travel rules. It also allows for making such choices between sessions, reducing the chance of decision paralysis and low player skill burning limited group time. Which in turn lets you get away with characters having WAY more shit to pick from.>A spellcaster should have to choose between using their resources on random utility or healing or combat, and moving those choices to the heat of the moment makes those choices easier to understand and increases player agency while also providing more compelling moment to moment drama.Which doesn't make sense with the frequently weeks-long time-scales that so many of the sacred cows revolve around. Logistical spells like Purify Food and Drink or Fabricate simply do not make sense under such a paradigm, and the kind of agency that comes with favoring sitting your ass down and thinking things through before committing is far more valuable than spontaneous gambles because it means they have to plan for expected problems in the way of future goals.>Their traditional risk-reward assessments, perhaps. Have you considered that gambling based magic systems, especially those with elements of attrition, can also have a satisfying and interesting assessment of risk and reward?But it doesn't work for the inter-related dungeon-delving, overland travel, and Domain play that are what Vancian became a sacred cow under. Just because YOU find it more fun for the way YOUR table plays does not mean that will extend to the case it comes from. Yes, 5.24 is garbage for most of it, but the OSR community continues to exist and you simply aren't dropping this noise into ACKS.
