I find that RPG writers often forget to clarify the usage timing of "[spend resource/activate ability] to add to roll" mechanics. Sometimes, these are individual abilities, like Word of Guidance and Oracular Visions in Draw Steel:https://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Classes/Conduit/#word-of-guidancehttps://steelcompendium.io/compendium/main/Rules/Classes/Conduit/#oracular-visionsMore annoying is when these ambiguities are found in outright core mechanics.I have searched through every single book of Outgunned for a clear answer on whether or not 1 Adrenaline can be spent to give +1 die after the roll, and on whether or not another character can give Help for +1 die post-roll. I have turned up nothing clear.Daggerheart lets characters spend 1 Hope to add +Experience to a roll, but irritatingly, it is only in the character creation section where it is mentioned that this must be done pre-roll. Meanwhile, Daggerheart is unclear on whether or not a character can spend 1 Hope to Help an Ally post-roll, and I have been unable to find a passage clarifying this.The usage timing of "[spend resource/activate ability] to add to roll" mechanics seems to be a spot that RPG writers often fail to be specific on, and I think it can detract from a game. (And, for what it is worth, I personally prefer it when these are post-roll, because players tend to forget otherwise.)What do you personally think on this subject?
>>97465624Personally I think players are bad enough at remembering their abilities and bonuses as-is. Abilities that strictly need to be applied prior to a roll tend to just go unused because by the time the player remembers they have the ability, they're already adding up their other bonuses. It also makes the abilities just feel more useful, because it sucks to spend a resource on a +1 bonus before you roll only to roll a 2 and fail anyway. I'd just generally assume that in any case where the game doesn't explicitly state it has to be before the roll, that it can be done afterwards. After all, the ability is more likely to be used and be useful that way, and if there's no rule restricting it, then that's the easiest way to do it.
Before roll at listed cost, after roll at double the listed cost.
>>97465624why the fuck would you ever assume it could be done after the roll, that's dumb
>>97465624>picMATING. PRESS.
>>97465787Not necessarily. Imagine this scenario:>character is trying to lift something heavy>roll barely fails, they can barely shift it>your character is standing by, and could have tipped the balance by taking a help actionIn a game where redoing rolls isn't desired (for whatever reason - task-oriented resolution, simulation, failing forward, etc), it would make sense to be able to add your help after the cards are on the table, so to speak. There's nothing wrong with input randomness.
>>97465928>failing forwardinto the trash it goes
>>97465958Yeah, nobody in real life has ever seen somebody struggling with moving something heavy, and then moved over to help them before they dropped it. That's just narrativist bullshit
>>97466043Idiot, stop handing out (you)s to such obvious bait.
>>97465869>Um, cheesed to meet you?
>>97466043why roll why not just let them do it then>okay Dragnar is trying to move the rock but he can't move it by himself does anyone help?>Yeah I'll help>Okay Goloaf you and Dragnar both move the rock togetherWhich also begs the question, why roll to move it in the first place?>Dragnar can't move the rock by himself, he needs help. Goloaf, you can help him move it, so you help him. The rock is moved. You guys go into the next room. You see the monsters and fight them. The fight is over and you win but Mysteriax takes 39 damage. You get 3928 experience and find 912 gold pieces. You move on to the next room where there is a big rock. Dragnar can't move the the rock by himself
>>97465624This is why we need to teach kids about context clues. OP is an illiterate retard who doesn't know what those are.I garuntee somewhere in the document it is stated how Adrenaline can be spent, and rather than repeat themselves 500 times for retards like (you), they state how it works generally and use language like "When you make a roll" or "When you attempt a check" or "after you roll a check" or something to that effect, which would give you the timing you're looking for.As for Daggerheart, if it doesn't explicitly state you can use a resource on something, you can't use it on something. That's common sense, and you're just trying to min-max and metagame your way into bigger numbers like a total cocksucking faggot.As a dev myself, and one who attempts to be as clear as possible with citations to page numbers every time something that requires reference would come up, I also rely heavily on context clues rather than repeating the same fucking mechanics 30 times for dipshits like you. I also avoid post-roll modifiers specifically because it punishes lazy illiterate faggots like you, because I will not support anti-intellectualism. I think you are a drooling retard, and you're disingenuously presenting the examples you have without context, or otherwise you're too stupid to read a book.
>>97465958>>97466350Retarded nogames spotted. As has been discussed, there are costs associated with doing what was described.>Resource CostYou spend some sort of meta resource to shift the result just enough to succeed, either through some form of reroll point or expending a limited use ability to add a bonus to the roll after the fact, meaning you can't do it again until that resource is refreshed.>Not a garunteeThe second character has to make the same check as the first with a difficulty that is one tier lower. This presents the chance of failure being present, but allows the party to cooperate and work together in hopes of succeeding, with the second character's roll offering degrees of success for different bonuses depending on the type of success.>Action CostMost often used in Combat, this could be a Reaction that consumes actions from the assisting character's next Turn, meaning they'll have less impact during their next Turn in Combat. They're paying a cost to help.>Why roll at all?Because the outcome is in question. That's what rolls exist for, and that's what nogames faggots like (you) don't understand. You think rolling dice is just something you do for everything in a TTRPG for no real reason. You're the kind of dipshit who thinks making a character roll to walk and not fall over while completely sober and about their senses is a sane thing to do. Of course a sober man can walk in a straight line without issue, but if he was drunk then the outcome would be in question and a roll would be called for.Just because they're getting a better chance or spending a resource to succeed doesn't mean there was no point in the roll. It means that the players will be sacrificing something for later.
>>97469815didn't read lol
>>97465624>whether or not 1 Adrenaline can be spent to give +1 die after the rollI think the assumption in die pool systems is that you can never add dice after already rolling other dice for the same roll, so they don’t clarify it because of this shared culture.Speaking of die pools, they have been immensely helpful to make my players remember their various resources and bonuses because they don’t know how many dice to touch before thinking about it for five seconds.
>>97469781>"illiterate retard">garunteelollmao
>>97465624I'm in the "it's stupid to declare bonuses beforehand" camp. They just end up being forgotten about. But it also comes down to system design. The system I'm working on heavily relies on pushing rolls. So I should probably decide myself if I want pushes to be pre or post roll. Oddly, for my system pre-roll probably makes more sense.
>>97465624I think this is one of the most important aspects for keeping gameplay consistent, along with order or operations/priorities. A game that balances power around order and timing can be broken if these things are ignored.Even though I only write my games for me, I'm still very specific with when the various kinds of active/reactive/followup/counter skills may be performed and when passive skills are relevant. I'm specific about when ailments apply their effects and when their timers count down, when statuses may be declared or when they end.I just like to play games, and there have been too many times where I thought I'd be playing one, only to be disappointed.
>>97465624"Resources must be spent before rolling unless specifically allowed after" is one of those unspoken assumptions.
>>97470703I know, you're an inbred, illiterate retard who can't read more than a couple of basic words strung together.Please, do the world a favor and put a 12 gauge shell through that hollow skull of yours. You will not be missed.
>>97471285Sorry I'm not a phoneposting faggot who lets his blue-light brick auto-correct all his text for him, retard-kun.The fact you went "MINOR SPELLING MISTAKE I WIN" means you know I'm right.
>>97474044tldr
>>97465624I did a double take, I thought I was on /vt/. Fuck you OP.
>>97474054Someone who can't spell doesn't get to call others retarded or illiterate, that's all there is to it.Learn to spell. Judge not lest ye be judged.
>>97465928You don't get to add help, but you get to retry a roll if its modifiers have changed (such as by gaining help for the second attempt), at the cost of it taking the same amount of time again. Sometimes matters, sometimes doesn't. If you're in a time crunch, don't play conservative with resources on the first attempt. This is how emergent gameplay comes into being, not by catering to barely literate people that can't get their paperwork in order and need to fumble around afterwards. When you're making a decision at the table, when the spotlight is on you, you think it through the first time.
>>97476537I accept your concession.
>>97478807nah I accept yours
>>97465624I want to buy an asian d6 where the face with the 1 has a single gigantic pip of a different color that rat
>>97476537That's actually not what that verse is about at all. Don't judge by standards that you don't want yourself to be judged by. You are both retarded so it doesn't apply.
>>97479894>telling someone who is an illiterate retard not to judge people for being illiterate retards isn't telling them to not judge lest they be judgedk
