This is something I've been struggling with as of late. I'm playing a system where one of my players has an ability where, once per day, he can ask a question and be answered truthfully in the form of a vision. The book does not impose any other limitations on it.I'm afraid such an ability will trivialize most of the campaigns challenges, thus making of it a boring ordeal. I could describe very vague visions, but I do think that'd make the ability useless, since my players aren't the brightest bunch. Once, while playing another system, I gave them a vague vision and the players derailed the adventure I had prepared by getting out of town and into the mountains.How would (you) deal with divination magic? What sort of conditions would you impose to make it a useful and yet fair ability? Would you just get rid of the ability altogether?
>>97467067I want to FUCK Kotoko
Sounds fine, don't overthink it and play it as written.
>>97467067Elaborate, WHY is it an issue? I mean, knowing the entire module in advance wont make them any more capable of actually passing the skill checks or winning the combats, right? Even if you answered completely truthfully and with total clarity, they still would need to know what to ask. >you see arlanth in the pouring rain, cutting a rope bridge with you still on itOkay so now what? Avoid that one specific future that could be dodged half a dozen other ways? Presumably an insight check or investigation roll could have done the same thing, and it could be trivialized just as easily by flight or featherfall. Point is, if someone has something that makes them good, let them be good. Theres nothing wrong with an easy win every now and then
>>97467176The campaign is about collecting 7 macguffins. In 7 days, he'd have all of their locations, no need to explore.The villains are also on the hook for it. He'd easily be able to find their hideout and how to get in.These are all supposed to be adventures, but they'd be reduced to "go from point A to point B and do exactly as told". This sounds as fun to me as checking info online to progress in a puzzle game.And also, there's he problem of believability. If this power already existed, why did nobody use it until now? This would have trvialized a bunch of challenges they already faced before.
>>97467247Okay, well first lets accept that this is just dragonball. The dragon radar trivializes investigation until it doesnt. The balls often move, and knowing the area isnt the same as knowing the location. Speaking of locations, finding a hideout doesnt help if its too fortified to break in, and farming the info of how to get in means he cant solve more immediate problems like "where did bulma get kidnapped to today?". Why not use it? Baba is expensive. Anyway lets be practical. Assuming you give accurate and complete info, he needs minimum seven days per ball, two to find the hideout and the best point of entry, and for that entire 10 days he has no immediate utility for questions like "what is the password to the safe". But lets go one step further and just solve your problem outright. If you project that the adventure will take 30 ingame days, only ever give 30% of the complete answer. Now he cant divine the full scope of the module until its already over. Easy.
>>97467067Have the book crumble a little bit every time he asks a question. You don't have to take it away, you just have to make him afraid you'll do it.
>>97467067I probably wouldn't do the 'ask any question, get a vision answer' for player-accessible divination. Generally, I would avoid any kind of clear future-sight ability. But, were I pressed into doing divination magic that does cover future-sight, I would either give multiple conflicting visions of the likely possibilities, or the most likely possibility if the future sight had not been used.The advantage of this is if fate is going to fuck the forewarned individual in the ass, he actually has a real shot at averting that. Further, this no longer requires you to know things with 100% certainty as the GM, and mistakes can be flaws of the crystal-ball/book/et cetera. It also avoids any meta-physics questions about predestination and related issues.Just make sure that the players are aware that the very act of looking into the future changes the future, and anyone rocking above room-temp IQ will realize that the visions aren't a one-size-fits-all solution for information gathering.
>>97467067Kotoko is so wasted on the painfully mediocre series she's the protagonist of. I've never wanted a character to be a part of a better series more than with her.
>a systemWhat system?
>>97467067Divination does add to the GM's mental load, and I subconsciously avoid it for that reason, both as a player and GM. I'm in a Werewolf chronicle right now, and I could have bought a "please grant me plot-relevant visions" power, but chose not to complicate the game.When I can get away with it as GM, I prefer to just describe a few details of an impromptu vision, and then explain OoC what the player might take away from it. That way I don't have to invent and play out an entire scene for one player on the spot, and I can steer the players rather than risk them completely misinterpreting the vision."Hmm... In the far distance, you see tendrils of fire dance around... a heraldic crest, the crest of Hawksmoor. You feel smooth wood biting into your palm, weight on your arm, and hear sloshing water as if carrying a bucket. After the vision ends, you think it is a warning that danger is closing in on Hawksmoor, and you personally have the means to defuse it.">>97467247For these specific issues, I suggest considering how your campaign is structured. If searching for each treasure is its own adventure, then presumably there are multiple steps, multiple rolls needed to fully acquire the item. If the vision grants a truthful answer to a single question per day, then perhaps the answer can obviate a single (knowledge-based) step in the adventure. This does require careful thought when answering the questions, as well as being thoughtful about how the treasures are hidden. Same goes for the villains. But it can be done! Especially if you keep up time pressure.Also, uh, "the stars were not yet right! Only now can these secrets be discerned." Or maybe there are anti-divination wards on certain people, places, things, because it is a known factor in the setting. That's not obstructing the PCs, that's worldbuilding.
>>97467067Why not aim for a sweet spot between>I'm afraid such an ability will trivialize most of the campaigns challengesand>I could describe very vague visions, but I do think that'd make the ability uselessMaybe make it so that the more pivotal the vision, the less specific it will be.>>97467247Don't be that specific, man. Give them hints to guide their adventure without telling them Macguffin 6 is in a locked drawer in the bathroom of room #201 on the second floor of the apartment on Item Street. I don't know how you're doing this interaction with your player but don't try to come up with visions on the fly because that will make this much more difficult. Get his question at the end of one session and give the vision at the start of the next session wen you've had time to think on it and craft a vision that is helpful and guiding without trivializing.>why did nobody use it until now?That's for you to figure out in your setting. Really that was for you to figure out before you gave that power to the player, but now you've gotta figure out a way to make that make sense.
>>97467067I wrote a little system for a character with prophetic powers. It's for DnD 5e, but should be easy to port.I built it around the visions being plot relevant and time being an important element of the plot, so they party would need to balance spending more time for better visions vs. getting shit done in time.Visions have two "sliders":Situation (still image) ------------ Process ("video")Simple (one element) ------------ Complex (multiple elements)>elementsPick two, and MULTIPLY the values.Who x2What x2Where x3When x3How x4Why x5Note that the easier end of the list leans towards Situation/Simple visions, and the other one towards Process/Complex visions. Just a helpful note for the GM.>familiarityOn a scale of "Not at all: +1" to "Strongly: -3", how familiar are you with the two elements you picked for elements?>connectionHow strong is your emotional connection to the general target or subject of your vision? Again pick on a scale from "Not at all: +1" to "Strongly: -3">timeHow much time do you dedicate to have this vision?- 2-5 hours: +2- 6-9: -2- 10-14 hours: -4>resultVision DC = 15 + elements + familiarity + connection + timeRoll 1d20 + WIS.If the result is >= to the Vision DC, you get a vision that should give some vague but decent information about the elements chosen.If the result is >= to the Vision DC -3, you get a partial vision that should give some vague but okish information about one of the elements chosen.If the result is >= to the Vision DC -5, you get some broken fragments of a vision that should give some very vague information about one of the two elements.>ConsequencesForcing visions is exhausting. After the vision, make a CON save. The DC for this save depends on how much time you took to have the vision:- 2-5 hours: Vision DC -3- 6-9 hours: Vision DC -5- 10-14 hours: Vision DC -7
>>97467067>Once, while playing another system, I gave them a vague vision and the players derailed the adventure I had prepared by getting out of town and into the mountains.Maybe you should talk to them about meeting you halfway instead of intentionally avoiding the fun activity you prepared for them. Or just get better players.
>>97467067The player just gave you an opportunity to dump lore and microfiction, a wish come true for failed author GMs.
>>97467067Important question, OP: what kinds of visions have you already given the player? Is this a game in progress with established precedent? Or do you still have time to fiddle with how exactly the visions work?
>>97467067why does your game have rails?
>>97467247yes, why did no one use it? why aren't your NPCs using it to counter the players' use of it?
>>97467067why did you include this in the game if you don't want them to use it?
>>97467247Oh, I see where you tripped up. The campaign is about whatever the players do. If you don't want them to make decisions, don't invite them.
Here is what you do OP: let the players use their visions to easily grab one, maybe two of the macguffins. And then whenever the divination guy uses his powers, he's not alone in them. Whatever major villain they are competing with is with them in the visions, seeing what they see. Hacking into their feed.This accomplishes a few things. First of all, it gives the villain more screentime in a context where the players can't just attack them. Lets them develop more of a personal connection instead of being a guy you hear about but never see without rolling initiative. The second is that it makes using the visions a risky choice. Yes, you will get the information you are looking for, but so will the opposition. It means that even if you get the info you want, it immediately turns into a race against the bad guys because you both got the info at the same time. You could get the exact info you wanted, but if the enemy is in a better position to act on it immediately than you are, you'll lose the race. This could force the players to exhaust other forms of investigation first, so that whatever answers they get via divination are either so specific that they don't reveal more context than necessary (asking "How do I get past this specific puzzle door?" is much less revealing a question than "Where can I find the next macguffin?", because the answer doesn't help the villains if they don't already know where that door is) or they narrow their search to a location that they are pretty sure is close and then ask the question so they get the specific details, but they are parked right outside while the villain is probably further away.Essentially, it introduces a complication to using the power without totally invalidating it, forcing the players to use the power cleverly instead of it being a "turn off brain, receive answers with no effort" button.
>>97467067>once per sessionThey're going to not use it out of fear of needing it later, or forget they have it.If they did remember, you give them an answer based on their question. If they ask a broad, generic question, they get a broad, generic answer. If they ask a well-worded, specific question, they get a well-worded, specific answer.
>>97467067>brokeTell players what will happen, watch the game never actually playing like that without hardcore railroad>wokeTell your players what can happen, then when it doesn't, inform them they defeated the fate itself>bespokeDecrease difficulty of future test related to specific event(s), with extra decrease if the divination check went particularly wellAlso:Stop being a fucking newfag that didn't play anything at all and has newfag problems, reeking of being never-GM, and potentially never-game.
>>97467385Too true.>>97468585>I prefer to just describe a few details of an impromptu vision, and then explain OoC what the player might take away from it.I'll talk to my player about it. I'd feel like this is a bit on the nose if I was in his shoes, but he may feel differently.>Also, uh, "the stars were not yet right! Only now can these secrets be discerned."I feel like that if I used it regularly, the player would feel cheated. I could save it only for very important questions that would make sense in-universe to be protected, but this would still trivialize much of the adventure.>>97468966>Why not aim for a sweet spotThat's basically what I'm trying to do, yeah.>Give them hints to guide their adventure without telling them everything>>97467301 also recommended thisMy worry is that it's going to be something akin to:Day 1: Where's the Macguffin -> on the desert Day 2: Where on the dessert -> in the ruins of something somethingDay 3: What's the town closest to the ruins -> This one on the mapDay 4: What is protecting the Macguffin? -> a giant lizardDay 5: What are the weaknesses of the boss that is protecting the Macguffin -> his tail is a weak spotDay 6: How is the dungeon layout -> I give him the plantsBasically what I'm saying is that by asking again and again they'll have a fuller picture. It's like someone trying to coax an AI to say something it shouldn't, you know?What I'm considering employing is a time limit for each Macguffin.>Get his question at the end of one session and give the vision at the start of the next sessionI'll try to do it as frequently as possible, but a session usually either takes 1 day (if they're in a dungeon or something) or multiple days. On the second case, I will have to come up with something on the fly if it's related to something they intend to do within the same session.
>>97469836Why do you bother? He's not running a game, he's probably not even a person. You're just training an AI.
>>97470082where in the desert - in the desert.the players don't decide how adjudication proceeds. you do.
>>97470082you didn't answer my question. why did you include this magic in the game if you don't want them to use it?
>>97470157Even if OP doesn't have a game, if someone else reading the thread sees my idea and thinks its neat enough to draw some amount of inspiration from it thats good enough for me. I'm not going to live my life in perpetual fear of someone else stealing my idea or that it will fall on deaf ears. Whats the point of even coming to /tg/ if we're not going to share ideas and discuss how we might run better games?
>>97470082>I'll try to do it as frequently as possible, but a session usually either takes 1 day (if they're in a dungeon or something) or multiple days. On the second case, I will have to come up with something on the fly if it's related to something they intend to do within the same session.At that point I'd say you just need to limit the player to what is feasible for you to do without compromising on quality. If it has to be a question asked between sessions then it's got to be that way. You could just level with them out of character, or you could come up with a reason that makes sense in-universe. Maybe drawing from whatever source is allowing this divination is akin to drawing from a well that was full when the player began using it, but now it has run dry and needs time to "refill" as it were. Questions asked day after day with no time in between would yield more esoteric and vague results, which would encourage the players to use it for less pivotal things if they do so frequently, or to wait for more key moments to ask for things that matter so they aren't rapidly peeling back the onion of your setting's secrets layer by layer.Perhaps you could foreshadow consequences for using this divination power in ways that reveal specific information about the macguffin, imply risk or reprisal by other forces privy to the sort of power the player is tapping into.
>>97467342>anyone rocking above room-temp IQ will realize that the visions aren't a one-size-fits-all solution for information gathering.Fair enough. Though I'm worried these players won't get it. The mountain shit was terrible.>>97469581So far, none. It's a new character that is still to be introduced. They met a fortune teller, though, and I described Future Sight as unreliable in the sense the future might changed once observed. And also, it's hard to gauge intensity. For instance, a merchant family got a reading that said expanding their business on another town would be fruitful. It was, just not that much, they got slightly better profit margins.The player in question's divination works differently. He has a spirit bound to him, and the spirit answers his questions. It's less "the Universe is giving you signs" and more "this being is sharing information with you willingly">>97469664>yes, why did no one use it?Because if the players can't plan around the villains, it becomes a boring adventure.>why aren't your NPCs using it to counter the players' use of it?They certainly can. I am struggling on finding a balance to make the skill useful though not overpowered.>>97469894*once per day
>>97469836That's a great idea, actually. I'll think of something to incorporate that. This sounds like the kind of thing that should come as a consequence from player's agency, though. Maybe whenever he asks about the bbeg, she notices what he's doing.>>97470170That verges on making the ability useless, doesn't it? Who's the person that's following us? -> It's a human that is currently following you.>>97470184I didn't, the book did. I'm here to get ideas on what to change exactly so it's a fun experience that still respects the character concept that my player is going for. That goes for both the ability itself and my GMing choices.This should be obvious.
>>97470326>That verges on making the ability useless, doesn't it?Only after they already got a crucial piece of information that they didn't have in the first place. They got question 1 answered to paint broad strokes on their next destination, didn't they? Sounds quite useful for you and the players to me.
>>97470318Give your players clear-yet-narrow visions. They can see the MacGuffin in a pile of gold coins, seemingly inside of a wooden container about the size of a treasure chest, or as a ring on the hand of a scary guy that just turned half of a grown man to cinders as he was cowering behind a large rock near a barn. Unless specified by the player, you should never reveal names of locations or people in the vision aside from spoken conversations or labels in the actual events, such as seeing the unfurled map depicting troop positions in the commander's war room. The party still gets accurate information, but ultimately has to put in their own effort to track down a landmark or a person. The broader the scope, the more vague, symbolic, or metaphorical you're allowed to make it. The fate of a kingdom can be summarized with a vision of a heraldry animal doing X Y or Z.Future events give you the GM carte-blanche to asspull anything you want to make that into a cutscene. If the player sees their friend stabbed in the night, no attempt to stay awake or safeguard them will prevent the vision from coming true, even if the character ultimately survives. Killing the thief king will not prevent him from kidnapping the princess because the thief king is a mantle taken up by different people of similar builds.In summary: the truth is powerful, and the risk of seeking it by divination magic is that the truth doesn't change due to the machinations of man. I'd suggest for the second or third vision, they see something that's terrible for the party that they still have to suck up and deal with. Put the fear of God in them early, that truthful visions can mean uncomfortable truths just as much as they can mean beneficial or neutral truths. Yes, the raiding army is going through the defensible mountain pass, but also yes, the raiding army is big enough to eat the barony for breakfast.
>>97470326No, you chose which things from the book to allow. Answer my question.
>>97470318that's not an answer. what is preventing other people from using this magic?
>>97470298not falling for it, neckbeardia. kill yourself.
>>97467089>>97467392>>97469190>>97470024The only good posts itt
>>97470318>The player in question's divination works differently. He has a spirit bound to him, and the spirit answers his questions. It's less "the Universe is giving you signs" and more "this being is sharing information with you willingly"You can make the spirit not omniscient, and it not really understanding the mortal plane causes it to give super vague visions. If he questions it every single day it becomes more and more attuned to the physical plane, causing the visions it grants to be more easily understood but also decreasing the amount of info it has access to.
>>97470024>Tell players what will happen, watch the game never actually even get close to that scenario even with your sturdiest rails>tell the players what can happen, then when it doesnt tell them someone else did itFixed those 2 for ya
>>97477779Nah, you just deliberately missed the point, but here, grab a (You), bumpfag
>>97470082>I'll talk to my player about it. I'd feel like this is a bit on the nose if I was in his shoes, but he may feel differently.Good. Communicating with your players is important. Also, if you worry about denying the player (or yourself) the flavor of cool visions, then this power can still justify special, bespoke visions when it suits the plot and you have time to prepare.For example, even if they used the day's question on a simple "What is the town closest to the next item?" and got "The town of Lacrima," you could still have the spirit invade their dreams that night and take them on a cool vision quest about something they never thought to ask.>I feel like that if I used it regularly, the player would feel cheatedTo be clear, "only now can it be discerned" is the explanation for why other people have not used this method before, not a means of blocking the player-character
