I have gathered 3 players. What is the best system for a combat focused dungeon crawl?(Dont say vidya, we don't have money to buy a playstation)Other thread apparently had a no-no OP pic so I remade this one which has hopefully a less controversial picture.
>>97575319Nice catwhistle pic OP
>>97575319OD&D or BX D&D if you want player-driven procedural clearing of dungeon rooms. AD&D1E if you want it to be needlessly complex about about it.4E D&D if you want build-focused character optimization where the PCs are on a guided tour of the dungeon. 3.5E D&D if you want to be needlessly complex about it.
>>97575335Thanks. I want focus on fights, not avoiding them, but I don't just want a guided tour of the dungeon, actually exploring it should matter.
You should delete your other thread tho.
>>97575352I tried>Error: You cannot delete a post this old.
>>97575352>you should get tone policed about dogwhistles on /tg/ lmao
>>97575319Why did you make another thread you fucking goober?Either way, Savage Worlds with the fantasy companion, or Savage Pathfinder.
>>97575403>Why did you make another thread you fucking goober?I didn't want to get the thread derailed due to the OP pic; thanks for the suggestion tho
>>97575319dragons dogma is my favorite game, very disappointed with the sequel
>>97575319Combat heavy stuff? Savage Worlds with Fantasy Companion or Savage Pathfinder.
>>97575645Vanilla DD was worse than DD2.Dark Arisen mogged the shit out of DD2 though.
>>97575405Savage Pathfinder has Class Edges that simulate character classes. These edges are much stronger than typical edges in SW and change up the game a lot. The bestiary is also lacking in edges and hindrances. The result is PCs being much stronger in Savage Pathfinder for more Heroic fantasy.The Savage Pathfinder stuff is self contained and don't require the SW books at all too.The Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion is actually a better book though. More monsters than SPF bestiary, traps, poisons, and such that aren't in SPF at all as well. SPF's main draw is the Class Edges and setting. The FC is superior in every other way.
>>97575657dd2 messed up a lot of things, really they should have just made the original vision for dd1.
>>97575686I disagree. They removed vocations that were clearly overpowered for example nobody should play a fighter over a Magick Knight or Assassin in DD1. The vocations in DD2 were all fundamentally different to the point all were viable (except Trickster. That was a shit vocation). It also made stuff that took up skill slots in DD1 instead be context dependent like Downcrack just happening when you swing on a downed foe. The world was populated with much high encounter density compared to DD1 but both suffered from enemy variety.The story and characters for DD1 were superior to DD2 though and DD1's stuff wasn't exactly good. Grigori was fantastic in DD1 but he fell flat as fuck in DD2 and that was incredibly bad.BBI introducing a mega dungeon with stellar bosses, more powerful gear, stronger skills, and more satisfying gameplay loop is absolutely superior to DD2 though. People don't separate BBI from base DD1 when they talk about the games when they should because if DD2 would have made such an expansion that was comparable it would clearly have been viewed as the better game.
>>97575319Warrior, Rogue, & Mage.
>>97575335OSR crawling rules with 4e combat works well if you include more traps but less monsters in dungeons
>>97575319BX or ACKS
>>97575319fucking retard
>>97577701Yeah, I made that thread but apparently the pic was bad so I made a new one with a different pic, I said that in the OP already. What do you want? I tried to delete the previous thread but couldn't.
>>97577728you are a genuinely worthless retard. please kill yourself
>>97577741Can you at least explain what is triggering you to this extent?
>>97577752>retard shits all over the board with his worthless nogames thread (twice)>cant figure out how to delete a threadkill yourself violently
>>97577770>nogames threadyes, I'm a nogames and I want to become a hasgames, thus I have gathered players and am asking what game to choose. Why am I not allowed to ask what game to play on /tg/?
>>97577790>literal nogames newfag cant use critical thinking to conceive why his dogshit spam threads arent well recieved
>>97577797>some dude complains the picture is bad>ok I'll try again>nooo you can't try again>why>you just cantYou are not being very productive right now bro
>>97577816>some dude complains the picture is bad>so the retard OP takes it seriously and spams the board by reposting the thread and not deleting the old oneliteral fucking retard newfag. I hope you kill yourself soon, moron
>>97577816>some dude complains the picture is bad>Other thread apparently had a no-no OP pic so I remade this one which has hopefully a less controversial picture.one of the most retarded, spineless things ive ever seen. how new are you to this website?
>>97577816>post worthless thread>troll calls your pic a dogwhistleOH FUCK I BETTER REPOST THE EXACT SAME THREAD SINCE I DID AN UH-OH OOPSIE
>>97577821>>97577835So the problem is that I didn't delete the old one, ok. Why didn't you just say so? You guys are being so dramatic right now.
>>97577846>>97577846>Why didn't you just say so?already did. learn to read, fuckwitThe problem is also that youre so stupid and spineless that if one (1) poster calls your pic a "dogwhistle" as a joke, and you immediately start sweating that you did an oopsie naughty and have to spam the board by reposting the same dogshit thread, while leaving the """offensive""" picture up
>>97577846>didnt delete old thread>reposted "BECAUSE MUH NO-NO IMAGE">nogames>newfag>retardplease, commit a violent suicide ASAP
>>97577866>>97577859Ok, I now understand my mistake, thanks for explaining! I shall endeavor to avoid committing the same mistake when I make more threads in the future!I already got my answer anyway, gonna try out Savage Pathfinder!Have a nice evening y'all!
>>97577884kill yourself violently, thanks faggot!
>>97577884thanks for shitting on the board twice and then leaving, despicable faggot
>>97577884You handled this well and I got to enjoy that sperg's little melty. I hope you enjoy your game!
>>97577898kill yourself too, spam enabler
>>97575319>Other thread apparently had a no-no OP picfucking what???
>>97577898thanks!
>>97577936didnt you leave already, retard?
>>97575319>I have the default number of players to run TTRPG>Which one should I pickLiterally ANY will work. 3 is a perfect number of players for all systems, because it's going to be the base value for majority, and for outliners it's either max or minimum number needed.You fucking twat
>>97575319>Other thread apparently had a no-no OP pic so I remade this one which has hopefully a less controversial picture.lmao hand-wringing milquetoast poindexter reddit behavior
i hope OP commits suicide
>>97577884Man you have to ignore the trolls, I dont see the deadly sin in creating a new thread when some asshole tried to derail it. Dont lsiten to these pricks, hope you find the right system.Catwhistle anon was funny though
>>97575335So few people care about 4e, 4rries have to resort to these threads. Sad.Btw 4e math doesn't work, and it was supposedly the only thing it had going.
>>97579348>4e math doesn't workqrd?
>>97575751>and more satisfying gameplay loopBullshit, it's a fucking slog trying to get through it over and over again for a specific piece of gear and upgrading it
>>97579373Bloat is still a problem after early levels making combat last far too long for an essentially pre-determined outcome. This has been a problem with D&D for decades and 4e's big claim was making classes balanced for encounters to try and fix this problem. Unfortunately, it had the opposite effect as a typical encounter in 4e is inarguably much longer than a typical encounter in any other edition.4e was easy enough to run on the GM side of things though even with it taking a long time and having a lot of moving parts. Really seemed like it would have made a better skirmish game than an RPG. Ironically Savage Worlds started as a skirmish game before becoming an RPG and that is what is recommended (SW mogs D&D anyway).
>>97579451interesting. I skipped 4e entirely, but im interested in knowing more if you feel like ranting about 4e's broken math
>>97579451Im curious if you think VTTs help with the bloat and speeding up combat, never touched 4ed but heard the same criticisms from pf 2e. But I just maximised "automation" in roll20 (making as manny things a single click as possible) and ive been running pf2e relatively smoothly.
>>97579640None of it was hard to keep track of, the problem was the damage output didn't scale with the HP growth well. If your baseline fighter can kill a baseline level appropriate mook with one or two hits and likewise be dropped by the same mook in one or two hits? An appropriately scaled fighter and mook should also be on square footing to also drop the other guy in one or two hits. Instead they are gonna smack each other's shit like some sissies flailing limpwristed blows and take a dozen rounds before something dies. That is assuming they are actively hitting each other with no complications as well. Since 4e leaned hard into skirmish game territory, this means that targets with too much health and too low damage are abundant and it becomes one helluva slog. It's balanced though, so it sucks dick no matter what class you are playing.>>97579461It's just bloat. AC bloat, HP bloat, modifier bloat, etc. 4e didn't fix any of the inherent flaws of 3e in that regard (5e only somewhat did but nowhere near enough for it to not STILL be an issue.)Shit is very much a "numbers must go up" mindset. Savage Worlds, by contrast, has a new character and living legend having the exact same health pool.
>>97580141bloat isnt really "4e math doesn't work"
>>97580503NTA but it absolutely is if the game rapidly scales into unnecessarily long combats because HP vastly outscales damage.
>>97575319ACKS is the best dungeon crawling RPG on the market
>>97580141>bloatThat's generally a troll word, misused often and rarely applied appropriately.Larger numbers are not "bloat" in and of themselves, especially when the numbers increase all around and ratios are relatively maintained. In both 3e and 4e, depending on the cheese factor the players employ, either defenses can be far too high or far too low, or even sometimes hitting the Goldilock zone.The key thing to understand is that the Goldilock zone varies from group to group. For 4e, they erred on the side of players wanting to feel in control and to avoid the combat feeling too chaotic and unpredictable, and that lead to an initial ratio that proved somewhat unpopular as it was considered too slow and too static. But, by MM3, they had retooled the enemy stats for a much faster, more dynamic game, though by then many players had already moved on from 4e to other games such as Pathfinder.>inherent flawsI tend to find that also in a troll's toolbox more often than in fair analysis.Character progression with increasing numbers is not an inherent flaw and one of the easiest ways for players to see and feel practical progression, with the goblins they killed today being easier to kill than those yesterday. Sure, the hobgoblins are about as hard as the goblins were, but the hobgoblins are also bringing along more advanced tactics along with their bigger numbers.
>>97580606Go to bed, ACKShill. It's just slower and clumsier B/X.
>>97580628Most of the more egregious 4e math only really showed up at higher levels.Prior to that enemies could take a lot of punishment, but that's a deliberate design to make it so encounters aren't rocket-tag. Same reason why 4e characters start with 20+ HP at level 1. The thing that slows down 4e combat the most is people not paying attention and not knowing their abilities. For any groups that tried 4e, the fact a Fighter had actual choices and options beyond just basic attacks meant their turns would be drastically longer. That's the crux of it.
>>97580628We don't need a lesson on "number go up=feel good.">>97580606Isn't that the game that got banned from a bunch of websites because its discord made fake accounts to try and promote the game during its kickstarter?
>>97580673Never happened fishfag.
>>97580654>the fact a Fighter had actual choices and optionsI think I am going to have to disagree there.Most of the decision making process was "Which of my At-Will's do I use/Are things dire enough to use my dailies," since they've almost certainly popped their Encounter abilities at the earliest possible time since there's rarely a tactical justification for reserving them. And, that applied to all the classes. The slowdown of 4e was really mostly just the idea that a battle doesn't feel right if it ends in only 1-or-2 rounds, like it'd be a waste to bring out the miniatures and set up the whole battle map and then have good luck (on the players side) end things in less than four minutes. So, they scaled up the HP ratio to prevent that, without realizing that if they try to prevent battles ending in 1-2 rounds, that means they're pushing the average combat length down the line and that means if the players have bad luck they get caught in a slog. And, it only took one battle that lasted forever for players to never want to go through that again.The MM3 math just said "it's okay for battles to end quickly. Also, it's okay for the monsters to win sometimes.">>97580673Don't sass me, boy.
>>97580752Oh, I'm not gonna argue that 4e was designed for battles to last 3+ rounds. Even the MM3 monster math didn't really change that. But that's not a problem for a combat-focused system to have combat that lasts several rounds.>Most of the decision making process was "Which of my At-Will's do I use/Are things dire enough to use my dailies,"Which is all still a lot more decision making compared to earlier editions. You're correct in that this is relatively simple decision making, and a player who is able to read and pay attention wouldn't struggle with this. But it's the players that struggle who turn what should be a 30 minute encounter into a 2 hour slog.
Funny how people hated 4e and thought it was dogshit, huh?
>>97580628>Larger numbers aren't bloat in and of themselvesI literally explained in the same post that HP values were too high and damage values too low leading to a slog. If damage kept up with HP growth, combat wouldn't be a slog because it would be resolved much faster >Troll's toolboxListen, faggot, 4e had inherent flaws. More precisely INHERETED flaws, as in the shit that sucked from previous editions were on full display in 4e as well despite the departures it took with the game design. There were some sacred cows that needed slaying and WotC kept them all to alive. 4e gets shat on for being a WoW ripoff and that's not fair, however, it 100% deserves to be shat on for combat encounter design philosophy, horrible rulebook release schedules, and not reworking core mechanics. You want a simple fix? At will power that gives you a die based on your class for damage every level. So a level 10 fighter has an at will power of 10d8 damage. Barbarian? 10d12. So on and so forth. That way numbers go up AND it keeps combat fast and deadly from level 1 until the very end. Monsters? Use the same logic. Easy as hell to scale shit that way and just say they got better loot, know where to strike more easily, etc.Instead we got WotC fucking up, as usual, especially when you remember it was supposed to be a VTT focused game.
>>97580822This post reeks of "You need a high IQ to enjoy 4e" bullshit.
>>97580919If you think reading the rules and paying attention is a high bar, that's on you.
>>97580919This post reeks of trolling.
>>97580927NTA but it's on the game if it can't grab my attention, and it'll go under if it can't grab enough people's attention period.
>>97580927>If you know the rules and pay attention, the game is good.This implies the people who think the game wasn't good didn't know the rules and pay attention. Which indirectly implies that only idiots didn't enjoy 4e.It's been explained to death why people didn't like it at this point, if you haven't figured out why, then you aren't reading their posts and paying attention.
>>97580964Don't bother, 4rries are convinced the game is perfect, sold a bajillion copies, and was just le sabotaged by evil executives who hate making money. No amount of evidence or logical arguing has ever been able to convince one otherwise.
What's really funny about my 4e was that WotC released a much better version of the game. It was called Gamma World.
>>97580964Who are you quoting? The point was that paying attention and reading the rules makes combat run smoothly. If you're having hour long combats it is unironically a skill issue.
>>97580822A fighter in 3rd had a good number of options if they were built for those, and that's not even considering what magic items they might be carrying, of which there could be easily a half dozen activated abilities. I dropped into an 8th level pathfinder 1e game a few weeks back, and even just from two sessions the fighter was carrying three swords and an assortment of other magical knickknacks that he was struggling to keep track of, and I almost felt bad for him because he chose the fighter because he wanted things to be simple.The "All fighters use is basic attack" is mostly a meme that comes out of "Martial vs. Caster" trolling, and while AD&D did have fairly limited combat in terms of martial options (usually just what weapon to switch to), 3e had fighters and other Full BAB classes with more than enough choices to be at risk of decision paralysis, particularly with mobile enemies who didn't just plant their feet and go toe-to-toe with full-attacks back and forth. Even just dealing with Cleave positioning and Power Attack and Combat Expertise and Reach Weapons/Combat Reflexes and what not is just the sort of barebones basics, with silly things like Spring Attack and Improved Trip/Improved Sunder often leaving the fighter with just too much to think about.4e also had it nuances, but the game almost worked to hide them and possibly even to discourage them. Improvised actions were a mid power, and most decisions were largely selecting the appropriate class power for the situation. Aside from the sort of players who had to be reminded that a d20 was the one you rolled to attack, most of the players I played 4e with were never struck with decision paralysis and just looked at their powers sheet for a minute at most.
>>97580994>If you're having hour long combatsMost 4e games would devolve into multi-hour long combats. It was a severe and often complained about problem due to the unnecessarily rigid and time consuming design it had around combat.
>>97580964There are valid reasons to not enjoy 4eRunning it poorly and then complaining about how you ran it is just a retarded reason
>>97580598a long slow game isnt a "math is broken" game
>>97581015Oh, here. Let me fix that>>If you're having multi-hour long combats it is unironically a skill issue.
>>97580640>>97580673shoot yourself, fishfag you being bad at games doesnt make a game slow or clumsy.
>>97581018>There are valid reasons to not enjoy 4eThere are no invalid reasons for not enjoying something.
>>97581050Yeah, the designers had a real skill issue. Who designs a game that a majority of your audience won't like? Really, they were retarded not to just make 4e a spinoff splat for a better edition the same way Spheres practically was for PF1e.
>>97580141>>97579640I see, the campaign in pf2e just started so maybe this is a low level symptom, but so far damage levels are really high and hp amounts relatively low on both the player end and the opponent end, hopefully that persists into higher levels.Although now im realising it most likely wont, all hp scales with level and damage doesnt, shiiiiit
>>97584047It's been a problem in D&D and it's derivatives for a long ass time. The warts start showing around level 5 and get worse as time goes on.
>>97579451Nice opinion,Got it from a YouTuber?
>>97585028No. I got it from playing games. I will give 4e credit for two great things though. 1. The D&D adventure board game series uses a very rudimentary version of 4e's rules and are pretty great.2. Gamma World also used a modified rule set but was intentionally made to be much more lethal and played much faster as a result.
>>97585477Which edition of gamma world uses 4e rules? The newest one? Ive read through some of the older gamma world books and they seemed more 2e adnd - ish. Does it only have the bad parts of 4e or is it a redeemable post-apoc ruleset? Im currently working on a post-pocalypse system of my own and I need references.
>>975855962010 editionCame in a board game box and had cards with weapon and mutation stats on them.It was very up front about players randomly generating characters quickly because they are almost definitely going to die RAW at any point. It treated such an occurrence as commonplace and, in practice, at least person died a session if not multiple. So the math was more geared to shit dropping fast as a result. I sadly didn't get as much time with it as I liked. The cards for weapons and mutations weren't necessary but with how much people died and weapons changed hands, they did help immensely. I wouldn't play 4e again, but I'd jump at the chance to play Gamma World again because it leaned more into the game side of RPGs and didn't take itself seriously at all.
>>97575645>>97575657>>97575686I fucking love DD2. It's the perfect version that DD1 wanted to be but failed to become.I am not accepting discussion or debate on the matter. You may leave.
>>97585477Gamma World was such an interesting idea, it's too bad it bombed because I think that was the nail in the coffin for a WotC release of anything other than d&d (although that's probably for the best.)The 2d20 origin rolls were a legitimately good idea, but I think ultimately 4e was a bad ruleset for the kind of game Gamma World is, and attaching the whole thing to a really blatant tcg grift was incredibly stupid.
>>97575352oh no please don't list this aggression in your MANifesto
>>97580998>A fighter in 3rd had a good number of options if they were built for those,>And they could only be built for 1 if they wanted to stay relevant
>>97577846>You guys are being so dramaticI was operating under the assumption it was a honest mistake, but thanks for clarifying you're a complete faggot and an attention whore with nothing worthwhile to say.
>97594333Its hilarious that the sperg is one of the main contirbutors to keeping the "sinful apam thread that shouldnt exist" alive
>>97595194To be fair, clowning on newfags is pretty funny when they're that obnoxious about it.OP, if you really want a tried and trve method of making an unforgettable old-school game, you should probably try killing yourself in a session. I think everyone involved would really appreciate that. Welcome to 4chan btw, KEK
>>97581055>If the monsters are passively watching an area, but aren't in a state of high alertness, the Judge should make a surprise roll when the characters attempt to sneak past or up on them. If the monsters are surprised (normally on a roll of 1-2 on 1d6), the characters can move for one round without being detected. If the opponents are ready, then the sneaking characters are detected.>If the monsters are distracted (e.g. by conversation with friends or a loud noise elsewhere) or otherwise not looking, the Judge should make proficiency throw to see if any of the monsters hear any noises (normally an 18+ on 1d20). If all of the monsters fail this throw, then the sneaking characters can move for one round without being detected. If at least one monster succeeds on this throw, it hears something which gets its attention. But that doesn't mean the sneaking characters automatically got caught. The Judge should now make a surprise roll, as described above.>Under normal circumstances a passive monster can be snuck up on 33% of the time (2 in 6), while a distracted monster can be snuck up on 90% of the time (because it has a 15% chance of hearing something and a 66% chance of detecting the characters if it hears something).The game literally has you make two separate rolls for an action it knows has a 90% chance of success. It's bloated garbo designed to appeal to people who think math makes games better, who also are autistic retards that get themselves banned from everywhere, then blame politics for people not liking them, rather than them being annoying retards.
>>97596227>people who think math makes games better, I don't think they actually do. They're just stuck because they have to pretend the game is good, but it's just a tangled nest of bad math so they have nothing else to go on. It's like if someone was trying to sell someone a dead dog and saying "He won't bark at visitors and I can guaranteed he'll never bite anyone."
>red border>P: 6Dafuk?
>>97596227This is definitely for a game whose few DMs have long since house-ruled away all of the bloat lol
>97595895>gatekeeping my crappy board so no one new joins it so it stays crappy is "pretty funny"Genius tactic, thank you for protecting us against spam, you clearly care a lot about quality of discourse
>>97595895Such irony. The suggestion that middle class white girls would play D&D in the 1980s... Chick really was fucking stupid and out of touch, even for a Boomer.
>>97575319GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (and / or GURPS Dungeon Fantasy RPG)
>>97577821>>97577828>>97577835Malding samefag. Everyone would rather have 10 posters like OP than 1 like you.
>>97577790It's because you backed down like a limp wristed faggot. Some reddit tourist called some classic games art a dogwhistle and like some other form of redditor filth you tucked your tail between your legs because ONE retard accused you of wrong think. Lurk more otherwise we don't want your kind here spamming threads.
>97604799>>97575319We in fact dont mind you posted two threads, it was only a minor inconvenience to some sperg
>>97596227You posted this as it it was some sort of incredible bad rule on the level of FATAL or something but it's just a normal rule for an OSR type game. You are way too overdramatic about such a minor thing.It's kinda sus, desu.Smells like a reverse shill trying to make the game look good by posting some minor rule and saying "Look, this is the worst rule in the game!" (meaning the game must be good is this is the worst people can complain about)
>>97607581NTA, but one bad rule isn't too big an issue.The problem is that it exists in a sea of bad rules that always errs on the side of being more complex and time-consuming than necessary. It becomes a compounding issue: ten seconds becomes ten minutes becomes ten hours, wasted, and all thanks to poorly designed, thoroughly amateur rules.That anon provided you a clear and direct example of a rule that not even you could defend as a good rule, so you're instead going the route of "well that's just one bad rule, it's not a big deal", all while trying to invent the idea of a "reverse shill" in an ridiculous effort to deflect being called a shameless shill.
