And the Kitchen Sink EditionPrevious thread: >>97568805Welcome to /2eg/, a thread dedicated to all things 2nd Edition D&D related - including settings, lore, modules, and derived systems (Alternity, Buck Rogers XXVc, For Gold and Glory, Hackmaster, Myth and Magic, and more).Since 2e draws heavily from earlier editions, older modules are welcome too. Other media derived from AD&D (such as Infinity Engine video games) also has a home here.It's what you play, not how you play it. RAW or homebrew, as long as your table is having fun, there's no wrong way to play.There's a surprisingly complete 2e fan wiki for rules stuff, it's excellent for quick reference:https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_2nd_Edition_WikiRemember to keep things civil.Thread Question - From gnomish firefly lamps to 'armored lingerie,' 2e had plenty of weird inventions. What’s the strangest piece of non-magical 'tech' a PC has ever tried to buy or build in your campaign?
>>97664226I *think* the elven prostheses are nonmagical, right? In that case I'd have to say a silver foot, after stepping in a mantrap.
What are y'all's favorite 2e settings?
>>97664251Forgotten Realms. It's basic, I know, but the sheer variety. Plus, Baldur's Gate 1 is how I got into D&D in the first place.
>>97664226An alcohol fueled flying ship. It was glorious stupidity
>>976642572e FR books were fantastic DESU. I have most the vologuides still. Fantastic reads.
>>97664251For me it's Al-Qadim. Which I guess is technically FR, but it ain't, not really.
>>97664339I never got to play it but it was fascinating. I should hunt it down at some point
>>97664251Ravenloft>>97664339Good taste though
>>97664430Ravenloft also was a good time. With the right GM it really sold the vibe
>>97664430Ravenloft is a solid B for me mainly because I'm just not in to Hammer horror movies that much. If you *are* that guy but you're indifferent to the Arabian Nights and Thief of Baghdad and so on, obviously it would switch places with Al-Qadim, right? Both are really well done in their niche.
>>97664251Birthright
>>97664585How does it play in practice?
>>97664585That is another I never got to read or play. I recall some of the monsters and the idea was very interesting
>>97664613Depends. Me and my group probably played it wildly wrong, but the one time we played in it (which was in like 1996 so sorry if my memories are a little faded) but we ended up taking over Roesone and one of the neighboring countries (can't remember which). But it was the only canon setting we ever played in while playing 2e so that's why it's my favorite.
>>97664621>>"We probably played it wildly wrong"That should be the subtitle in a book about D&D
>>97664339Never knew there was a 2e Nentir Vale.
>>97664671There wasn't, that image covers all D&D settings. Notice Eberron is on there as well.
>>97664507Honestly a close call. I loved Castlevania and some 80s monster movies, but just as fine I liked Disney's Aladdin and such. My party played a lot of Dragonlance, and I had a bunch of Planescape material, but RL and Al-Qadim just clicked with me.
1/2
>>976659122/2I miss being able to post PDFs...
>>97665912 >>97665918Just to broadly go over the contrast between sorcerers and mages...A mage of even average (10) Intelligence can know up to 7 spells of each spell level, for a total of 54 spells by 20th level. A higher Intelligence, or the DM using the Spell Research variant, can know even more. However, that same 20th level mage is limited to 37 total spells in a day (5 each of 1st-5th, 4 6th, 3 of 7th and 8th, and 2 9th).The 20th level Sorcerer can cast 54 spells per day (6 each of 1st-9th level spells), which is about half again the number of spells a Mage can cast. However, they know just 34 total spells, with no ability to pick up additional spells or replace or swap out existing spells. Or in other words, the mage of even average intellect knows nearly twice as many spells.The Mage dominates at the tactical levle. Because mages prepare spells individually, they can: tailor their loadout to the day’s adventure, swap out underperforming or useless spells, or pivot into niche utility roles. Sorcerers cannot do any of this. Their spell list is fixed, and their daily preparation is irrelevant - they always have the same tools. This makes sorcerers consistent, but not adaptable.Sorcerers do dominate the strategic reliability level, however. They cannot lose spellbooks, they cannot fail to learn a spell, they can't run out of their good spells early, and they always have every spell of a given level available as long as they have one spell slot of that level open.In a campaign that doesn't allow frequent resting (so the mage can't swap out memorized spells) or if you're in a campaign with limited or unreliable access to libraries or spell scrolls as treasure (either by intentional design or 'cause your DM keeps forgetting to hand them out), the Sorcerer is at an advantage.To sum up: - Mage: More spells, less often - Sorcerer: Less spells, more often.
>>97665912Haven't read yet, but good job with the layout.
>>97666018Now the next step is creating a sorcerer spell list, which should be distinct from the mage spell list and focused on the fact that due to the fact that they can't swap out spells, they're unlikely to ever even want to take niche utility spells. In exchange they'll probably get some spells that are typically restricted to clerics or druids, though.
>troll thread bumped by the trolls who ruined the /osrg/ because they couldn't stand 2e discussion>they bump it with the fakest attempts to discuss 2eIt's almost ironic.
>>97666054You may, if you wish, make a real attempt to discuss 2e here.
>>97666059I'd rather just do it where 2e discussion was done before, in the /osrg/.I'd even prefer crybaby shitposts from the trolls rather than deadeye efforts from them, because the former is easy to ignore while the latter takes a second to realize it's someone who hates a game trying to pretend he likes it.
>>97666083>I'd rather just do it where 2e discussion was done before, in the /osrg/.You may do that too, I won't stop you.
>>97664339Ah, but what about->Jakandor is on thereWell holy shit, someone apart from me remembered it exists!Combining Jakandor with Ghostwalk undeath mechanics would be a real hootenanny come to think of it.
>>97666035You could just check Diablo: The Awakening and maybe copy the sorcerer spell list, then, they were probably the inspiration for the D&D Sorcerer class anyway.
>>97666107Checking it out now, though at a glance it seems like the Diablo sorcerer just gets access to the Mage spell list plus the new spells, rather than having a distinct spell list. Although they do have some banned schools (Greater Divination, Invocation/Evocation, and Necromancy), but that seems to be for the specific flavor of Diablo rather than the general Sorcerer vibe I was going for.Still, it's a useful resource.
>>97666054What does real 2e discussion look like to you?
>>97666614Something-something THAC0, something-something gold for XP is for Thieves only, something-something Planescape faction arguments that strongly resemble SMAC faction arguments.
>>97665912 >>97665918Oh, right, I forgot: multiclass options. Let’s keep it simple.All races:>Fighter/Sorcerer>Thief/SorcererDwarves, Half-orcs>Cleric/SorcererHalf-elves>Bard/Sorcerer>Cleric/Sorcerer
>>97665912Damn nice job on the layout. This is looking fun
>>97666614Presumably>Hey, I'm here to talk about 2e in /osrg/, tee-hee>Fuck off retard>Well that's not very nice, don't you know 2e is an OSR game because-And then a hundred posts of absolute raw dog food that he's rehashed so many times even the rats wouldn't touch it by this point.So, not really 2e discussion, more talking about 2e and what it is or isn't so he can cause shit.
Ya know, I wish we got more 2e retro clones or inspired games. You can't swing a cat without hitting a B/X or 1e clone, yet we only have two 2e inspired ones.
>>97667372>twoFor Gold and Glory, and...?
>>97667405Myth & Magic, it was t a pure clone but 2e/3e mix. Was kinda interesting but from what I recall there was some issues with production and Kickstarter over promising. The DMG didn't even get finished
>>97667437Huh. Explains why I've never heard of it.
>>97667555Yeah it had some hype but total mismanagement killed it
>>97664339Are there Ravnica 2e books?
>>97667840No, He ranked all d&d settings of any edition it seems.
>>97667856Damn, a 2e ravnica wouldve been my dream setting.(Im not the picrel redditor but goes to show how common a fantasy it is)Is planescape a similar vibe? Ive heard theres a "donut city" that is a hige urban magical sprawl
>>97664671>>97667840I just grabbed a pic I had left from a thread about ranking all official D&D settings ever released by tier. Surprisingly few of them postdate 2e so it seemed pointless to blank those out or make a separate tier list.
>>97667920It’s not totally dissimilar, though Ravnica is just one one plane while Sigil ‘s whole deal is that it’s the City of Doors, full of portals to other worlds, which is why it’s the second-most visited planar hub in the multiverse.Also instead of a Guildpact you have Her Serenity the Lady of Pain, who enforces a tense peace between the various factions in Sigil by flaying alive with a glance anyone who steps out of line. Or banishing them to a maze. Also sometimes she just does this to people who cross her path.We don’t know much about Her Serenity except that she’s not a god, she absolutely does not allow gods on Sigil and has the power to keep them out, she refuses to be worshipped as a god, and her real name is Lorraine Williams.
>>97667995Thats sounds right up my alley, thanks anon Ill check out the 2e splats
>>97667995>spoilerDid anyone from TSR spill that? Fun if so lol>We don’t know much about Her Serenity except that she’s not a godApparently she sort of predates the gods, and her power level mogs them.>Sigil ‘s whole deal is that it’s the City of Doors, full of portals to other worlds, which is why it’s the second-most visited planar hub in the multiverse.It's also the legit center of the multiverse, if Sigil breaks, everything falls apart. What's the first one, ethereal plane?>>97667932I'm more surprised by how few of the 1e/2e settings are there.>>97667995
>>97668676>>I'm more surprised by how few of the 1e/2e settings are there.Pretty sure these are only the official settings. I am not seeing any messing settings DESU. What is missing?
>>97668676>What's the first one, ethereal plane?The City of Brass. It’s continuously described as the oldest, largest, and most populous city in the Multiverse, and THE busiest planar hub in the Great Wheel, where anything and everything can be found for the right price.
>>97668676> Apparently she sort of predates the gods, and her power level mogs them.I know it’s not lore-accurate at all, but I’ve always personally imagined Sigil as a Darkrealm and the Lady of Pain as its Darklord. A city of infinite doors, leading everywhere - and she can’t travel through them. Sigil is the one Darkrealm that (you) can enter and leave on a whim because that is Her Serenity’s personal Hell.
>>97664257>>97664266Nothing against your guy's taste, I just have different taste, don't mean to rain in your parade. I never got into FR like my friends did, and when 2e came out the 2e FR setting sucked in one very important regard: it imported Oriental Adventures then introduced Al-Qadim and Maztica.What was the Jade Emperor doing during the Time of Troubles? At least the Zakharan deities were forced to walk the earth. Don't know about the Maztican.Long story short, FR was fine when it was just not!Europe. When it became a kitchen sink setting with no fewer than four Earth based settings thrown in together and three of them were poor cousins it sucked.>>97664339Nice. Al-Qadim didn't get the respect it deserved.
>>97669300FR becoming a dumping ground for settings is a fair criticism. I stuck with the core area when I ran it. Dark sun was probably my fav however. Planscape , spelljammer and Ravenloft also got a lot of play.Nothing wrong with not liking a setting, it's just not your taste.
>>97669192Oh those efreeti>>97668805Like >>97669300 mentioned, Kara-Tur and Maztica came to mind. I guess Masque of the Red Death counts too? Possibly Blackmoor. I'm not sure if you'd count Hollow World separately from Mystara. Maybe Lankhmar, since it had its own line. Diablo/Khanduras. I was putting together a table recently and realized settings just kept popping up, I'm sure I'm missing some. Where does Tale of the Comet take place? And there were those great Historical Reference books, but that's hard to count as settings. They're great though.Of course those are 2e and earlier, for later there's Rokugan and technically Mahasarpa at least.
>>97669493Théah as well; 7th Sea got a d20 release.
>>97669493Good list, I had honestly forgotten about Lankhmar. Blackmore I think got rolled into Mystara as did hollow world, but Hollow world did have it's on imprint so I think that counts as its own thing.I forgot about Council of Wyrms too, and Arcane Age for FR might even count as its own thing too.
>>97669664Council of the Wyrms is at the bottom of the image, though
>>97668676>Did anyone from TSR spill that? Fun if so lolhttps://www.expositionbreak.com/a-walk-through-the-planes-an-interview-with-monte-cook-ray-vallese-and-colin-mccomb/>What most people don’t know is that much of Sigil was Zeb’s metaphorical analog for TSR itself. I mean, it was literally run by the Lady of Pain, whose very gaze could kill you (or your product). So behind the scenes, the setting had a very different meaning for everyone there.Are there any adventures in 2e or before that feature blue dragons?
>>97670429It is, but my eye just kinda glanced over it I guess
>>97673620>> Are there any adventures in 2e or before that feature blue dragons?Maybe FR or Dragonlance. Those are your best bet. I think they get mentioned in FR mods once or twice but can't recall if 2e area had any
Played 2e as an early teen before 3e came out and now I'm wanting to dip my toes back into OSR stuff. However, the OSR thread is loudly and shittily anti-2e. How is 2e different from AD&D? What is better about it? Why do you prefer it?
>>97674653It's some weirdo gatekeeping bullshit. There are changes but it's still the same basic system work. It's like saying 3.5 isn't d20 because it's not 3e.To me, I like 2e better. I find it cleared but rules issues, I like that it more focused on characters, setting and campaigns over dungeons and earning gold
I have a list, it's 94 changes, most are pretty minor. Standard edition system twerking stuff. Most of the hate comes from GG getting kicked out and changing to tone to be more heroic. Changing the names of demons and devils, removing assassins and the like.
>>97674653>How is 2e different from AD&D?It's aimed at a different style of play, (more than one actually) and the rules and advice all lean in a new school* direction.* the "new school" is very old at this point, but it entered D&D around '84 with Dragonlance, which most people feel marked the end of the old school
>>97674691There's more than that: a more recent version has 123 changes listed. Some are "who gives a shit" level (Mages now receive hit dice up to level 10 instead of level 11), and some are pretty big (paladin protection from evil became pathetic, and all the treasure types give a pittance for treasure).If you played 1st like you wound up playing 2nd (heroic play, fudging combat to what basically 2nd wound up with), you won't really notice a difference. If you played 1st as the heavy dungeon crawler with full segment initiative as it was intended to be, it's a world of difference. That's why you can have different people say it's both exactly the same and totally different.
>>97674743This.
>>97674743>>If you played 1st like you wound up playing 2nd (heroic play, fudging combat to what basically 2nd wound up with), you won't really notice a difference. If you played 1st as the heavy dungeon crawler with full segment initiative as it was intended to be, it's a world of difference. That's why you can have different people say it's both exactly the same and totally different.Fair enough, I never got it as honestly dungeon crawling is not something I find even remotely interesting or fun. It's also not anything the few folks I knew who.plsyed 1e played.
>>97674712>and the rules and advice all lean in a new school* direction.popping into this troll thread to say No, you're wrong.2e and 1e are largely interchangable, and it is OSR. just like >>97674664 said, you're essentially trying to argue that 3.5 is not d20 because its not 3.0.
>>97674960>this troll threadFuck off, you colossal faggot
>>97674743>more recent version has 123 changes listedLink please. I haven't seen it uploaded here for a couple of years and when I did see it it wasn't all that different to when it had first been made elsewhere.>paladin protection from evil became pathetic1e1 inch radius but otherwise the same as the spell which isprevents bodily contact from various summoned and evil creaturesthose creatures at -2 to hit paladinpaladin gains an extra +2 save vs those creatures2e10 foot radiusall evil and summoned creatures suffer -1 to hit no matter the targetThey nerfed most of it, I wouldn't say it's pathetic, I'd say it was massively op in 1e and needlessly invited a Bart vs Lisa situation that you'd have to resolve, which is why the 2e version of the spell says that if you try to force the barrier it breaks. The 2e increase to 10 feet radius is a step up from 1 inch. I'd disagree that it's pretty big I'd call that quite small to below medium at best.
>>97675042>increase to 10 feet radius is a step up from 1 inchRead the rules, 1 inch is 10 feet indoors, 10 yards outdoors.
>>97674712>the rules and advice all lean in a new schoolAgreed, the fact 2e that ability scores range from 3-18 for humans is very new school.The fact that lower AC value is better armour, new school.Long sword does 1d8/1d12 damages, totally new.Roll a d20 to hit, higher is better, new school.Clerics cast clerical spells and magic-users cast magic-userish spells, knock me down with a feather that's the newest new school of them all.Don't anyone give that anon crap that those are exactly all the same as 1e so his statement that all rules lean in a new school direction is actually factually...wrong.
>>97675065>I'm being retarded and no-one can stop meCute
>>97675063Read the rules, that's for weapon range and spell range, not spell area effect.
Here is a question: how many folks house ruled out level limits and race requirements? It seemed a common house rule back in the day.
>>97675114I got rid of level limits. I kept race requirements, except that exceptional individuals (17+ in the class’ prime requisites) could take the class regardless of race. The racial restrictions otherwise help to add flavor that I just didn’t want to really let go of.
>>97674743Good poast.>>97674853>It's also not anything the few folks I knew who.plsyed 1e played.This is something that the OSR guys themselves acknowledge freely: D&D really represented the whole of RPGs to many people and so most who played and didn't learn directly from the creators of the game (or their players, and so on outward) were captivated by the potential of roleplaying in general and simply screwed the D&D system around to their preferences, which turned out to most often be "I want to star in my own fantasy epic". It was so common that even TSR started to cater to it (c.f. Dragonlance). That's why there was an old-school play style to recover in the first place, because most people never played the game the way it was originally meant to be and TSR itself left the style behind when profits pointed in a different direction.
>>97675042 >>97675063>inconsistent scalingSo wait, my crossbow bolt or thrown knife literally could not go as far if there was a roof over my head, even if I had the same horizontal space?...based 2nd Edition for fixing that nonsense.
>>97674743I am looking to run a heavy dungeon crawler and segmented initiative didn't seem too tough to grasp. Did a lot of people house rule it out?Are all the 1e vs 2e edition wars just "my nostalgia is better than yours"?
>>97675863Most edition wars for most games are just that, it's not unique to 1e and 2e.
>>97675863 >>97675873That being said, 1e does feel very...first draft, to me.
>>97674691This also shouldn't be confused with the recent turn of utter retardation that is the new OP arbitrarily cutting off any game made after 1983. AD&D 2 and Rules Cyclopedia are as OSR as any other TSR product.
>>97674743This is wrong. Egregiously. The whole "2e is Marvel-flavored railroading where rolls matter less than emotions do" is just trolling, and you're doing your own lukewarm version of it.2e does dungeon crawling just as well as 1e, and having done it quite extensively in both, the only major difference is that some 1e groups play with a stick up their asses that I've never encountered with any 2e groups. Some of the worst rules lawyers I'd ever meet were in those 1e groups, and they seemed like their goal was to bureaucratically and systematically remove any potential fun that might occur.Some of the best dungeon crawl experiences I've had used 2e's rule changes, since they provide some serious QoL changes like grouping time more efficiently and otherwise improving the bookkeeping side of things for both the players and GM. They allowed us to do more and even explore larger dungeons, and helped the dungeon crawl avoid turning into a dungeon slog.
>>97676003How does 2e group time differently and what bookkeeping improvements would you highlight to someone looking at both?
>>97675688You're taking 1e's initial goal of creating a strict tournament-style ruleset and pretending that's what the true OSR style is that people were striving for. That's far from what the OSR is about.OD&D and the subsequent Basic line (which were just called "D&D" back then) were about adaptation and flexibility, while Gygax tried to make AD&D "aimed at uniformity of play world-wide."Ultimately, what TSR discovered is that RPGs tournaments were not practical as competitive rather than casual events. Unlike war game tournaments, they were far too subjective, and even attempting to follow 1e's rule set strictly left far too much variance between DMs. They tried several formats, including going from teams to individuals, but the tournament scene never proved even close to as popular as the more "casual" style. 2e took 1e's more robust rules, and brought some of the flexibility of D&D back into AD&D, offering DMs variants and options and heavily encouraging they tailor the game to the style the players wanted.To some diehard 1e grognards, that sounded like babying the players and just giving them whatever they want, and that playing a game in a way players didn't want was "tougher" or "more real."But, if a DM wanted to run 2e as un-player-friendly as they wanted, they could. The deciding factor for what made a game "tough" was never the system, but the GM, and 2e provided plenty of options/variants to run quite "tough" games indeed, including pushing the testosterone levels to 11 with Dark Sun.OSR was about preserving old games, and capturing that early game spirit. It was never about pretending one style was all people played, especially if the style they're championing was something of a failed experiment.
>>97675924Yeah that is just gatekeeping stupidity. OSR is any D&D pre 3e, it's not just that weird ass crawler style they push there. And it's got wild and interesting it's just not pure clones.The guy running that thread just hates 2e. He just picked an arbitrary cut off date.
>>97675305Fair enough. We ditched both back in the day.
>>97676067They're still pretty similar.1e has rounds (one minute) and turns (10 minutes), and while dungeon exploration should largely be a matter of the latter, it can be tied up in the former. It also stresses strict time-keeping and even required resting.2e starts out its chapter on time by saying it's up to the DM how strict they want to be with it, and then mostly focuses on travel times. Dungeon time is still tracked in 10-minute turns primarily for when random encounters should be rolled, and even that is heavily modulated (it can be several times more or less frequent depending on the danger of the locale). It still has rounds (though primarily for combat considerations) and a DM could be as strict with time as they were with 1e, but it's also just as easy to swing in the other way and track time by the hour instead for when tracking turn-by-turn isn't adding anything to the exploration. The main difference is just 2e advising DMs to find the right goldilock zone for their group.
>>97676569>advising GMs to find what is right for their groupI can see why people get so autistic and mad about this. I can't imagine
>>97676661To a very small group that is a line too far. The players should suffer and fail like god intended
>>97675840>what is indirect fireA roof over your head literally reduces your effective range with a bow or crossbow, generally by more than 1/3rd
>>97676457>OSR is any D&D pre 3e,So the "old school" is 1974 to 2000 according to you? Seriously?>the guy running that threadOh, I see, you're that retard again.
>>97676945That is factually what OSR is. It was created to emulate pre 3e systems. Hell C&C, the first OSR game is a d20 system.
>>97676569Do you use segments at your table or another initiative tracking system? Is it 2e's regular system or something else you prefer?
>>97676996At what point did you first realize you were completely full of shit?
>>97676945Hsy there's a containment thread for your variety of retard, stay in it.
>>97677032 Go back to your cuck thread. You like that thread are confused about what OSR is.
>>97677075I’ll tell you what OSR isn’t, which is worth arguing about in this thread, since this thread is expressly open to OSR-style play in 2e.
>>97677379It was made specifically to avoid you and your trolling though.OP even said he'd rather chop off his own dick than deal with any more of your trolling in that thread.And, here you are.
>>97677387Dude, I posted in that thread 1 or 2 times. That's it. You know everyone uses the Anon name, right?
>>97677379You mean 1e OS style. Not OSR. Those are two different things. You are simply confused by the cuck thread.
>>97676143>You're [fanfic ensues]AD&D isn't some sort of tournament-only or tournament-focused ruleset, where did you even get this idea? Anybody sensible knows perfectly well it isn't, overinterpreting one statement that's contradicted by any number of others isn't a good look.It's starting to become obvious why the other thread hates you.
>>97677411Actually, at this point it's common knowledge for anyone who's evenly mildly curious about the development of AD&D. But, if you really need a source, check Heroic Worlds: A History and Guide to Role-Playing Games.If you want to argue against it, shows some source that says otherwise, or shut up and stop having everyone hate you.
>>97676457>The guy running that thread just hates 2e. He just picked an arbitrary cut off date.Wait, so, is your claim that it's not only just one guy, but he also wrote a bunch of blog posts just as references to defend his claims in the general? Because I saw those blog posts, one of them seemed to be written by a genuine OSR module creator. They didn't seem to make very arbitary claims either to be honest with you. I mean I'm not saying I *agree* with them, but they did provide reasons and stuff.
>>97677451Cart-before-horse reasoning is just bullshit but with the veneer of providing reasons. Let's not pretend otherwise.
>>97677428>no u
>>97677464Opinion noted. Could you maybe answer the rest of the questions? You know, the ones about your actual claims? Did the guy running /osrg/ (only one guy, remember!) fabricate the OSRsimulacrum and Fomalhaut blog posts? Just to fuck with the OSR thread on 4chan? Years ago?
>>97677466>source provided>hell, previously we even have Gygax explaining in his own words the difference between D&D and AD&D>"uhhhh no u"
>>97677484Why are you acting like you're talking to just one guy.Also, quit being a complete fucking retard. One guy could take some blog's lies and use them as the underlying bullshit for why he's hijacking a thread.
>>97677406Whatever. Point is, OSwhatever is welcome in this thread, hence why the OP has this line:> It's what you play, not how you play it.Whatever /osrg/ does or doesn’t allow isn’t relevant to this thread.
>>97677518They are simply wrong on the basis of OSR. They are silly little gatekeepers, nothing more
>>97677517>One guy could take some blog's liesOkay, but you said the 2e cutoff thing was just arbitrary bullshit by one hater? But if other people wrote those blog posts (one of whom is a module writer and the other made his own OSR variant?, I guess is how it works?) and they *aren't* faked by the same guy, then presumably there are a lot of people in the OSR who don't think 2e counts? So, how arbitrary is that really then?It seems to me that even if the /osrg/ is run by one guy, as long as he didn't write those blogs himself, he must necessarily be citing an idea that existed in the OSR before him to some extent, that 2e isn't it, and so, that means he didn't just make that up on his own.I don't know, your claims just don't seem to make any sense to me.
>>97677451It seems to be a few guys at best. Son, I was around when OSR was born, I was on those forums. It was born with C&C, which was d20 based on pre d20 D&D and not just 1e. It was followed by Labyrinth lord(bx), OSRIC and Basic Fantasy. You are confusing OS 1e play with OSR and they are simply not the same thing
>>97677555You're talking to the faggot who's been trying to get people to leave this thread and go post about 2e in /osrg/ in order to help him with his schizo war against that general, of course his shit doesn't make sense.
>>97677555>> Okay, but you said the 2e cutoff thing was just arbitrary bullshit by one hater?The guy you are responding to is once more, pointing out you are talking to multiple people. On here the cuck running his 1eOS thread did pick an arbitrary date and it doesn't matter whose ass he pulled it out of.OSR does not mean what you and he are claiming it does.
>>97677570>You are confusing OS 1e play with OSR and they are simply not the same thingI'm not confusing anything, I just don't know anything about it. I'm asking Anon a question about the stuff *he's* claiming, because the stuff he says doesn't seem to make any sense to me.See, if the claim was (for example) that there's a minority faction of OSR people who don't think 2e counts, whatever their reasons are, and those people are the majority in the /osrg/, I could believe that, that makes sense. But then it seems like they're also perfectly entitled to run the thread how they like? Or at any rate, that they *can* do it in practical terms. But that's not what Anon was saying, he's claiming that there isn't even a conspiracy, it's literally just one guy who hates 2e for no reason, and in fact, per >>97677464, any reasons he claims to have he made up after the fact to justify himself.
>>97677574I'm kind of starting to draw that conclusion independently, yeah. I was willing to hear him out and thought maybe I was just misunderstanding his claims, but increasingly I think I'm just talking to someone who thinks he's dealing with a 12-year-old and can ignore the parts he finds hard to explain by seizing on one statement per post, sounding mad when he replies, and blustering his way though.>>97677587>OSR does not mean what you and he are claiming it does.Again, I'm not making any claims. I neither know nor care what it's supposed to mean! I'm asking questions about the *other* guy's claims, which seem to be incoherent and implausible.
>>97677589That thread is a shit show and it's not worth bans and warnings to try and educate those cunts. Let them stay in Thier little thread jacking off to the concept of gold as XP.
>>97677550Okay. Doesn’t matter.
>>97677603See, there again, that doesn't actually respond to any of my questions. You're mad, yes, I get that. But what you just wrote is just a dismissive statement to the effect that actually it doesn't matter and I shouldn't bother about the details, just get on with hating where I'm told to. Unfortunately, I think that's pretty unsatisfactory, and in any case I'm bad at following orders. I'd like answers to those questions if you expect me to go along with you.
>>97677589mods already told you to eat shit and fuck off
>>97677618What details? I think you are responding at least 3 people man.
>>97677638I'm afraid you've confused me with someone else. I've never to my knowledge talked to a mod.>>97677641If you can't even follow a reply chain, why bother replying? You can find the conversation just above, but if you're not the anon I asked the questions of (and who seems to have gone conveniently missing after first responding quite rapidly), and you don't even know what's being discussed, I don't know why you're getting involved.Anyway, it'll be a bit before I can reply again myself, but I have to say I'm not particularly hopeful of ever getting a sensible answer.
>>97677675>I've never to my knowledge talked to a mod.They made it quite clear less than a week ago that as per the /osrg/ OP, 2e is off-topic. now fuck off
>>97677693My brother in Wesely, this is /2eg/
>>97677700and yet I was directly replying to a post complaining about 2e being 'hated' in /osrg/.Do you know how to follow a reply chain?
>>97677555Fucking retard.The 2e cutoff is arbitrary bullshit.The one hater having blogs of bullshit to call upon is hardly as amazing as you are pretending, especially when there's no walls whatsoever between anyone who decides to call themselves a module writer or blogger. We're not talking peer-reviewed scientific papers here, we're talking shit on the level of flat earth blogs. And, those are competing against hundreds other blogs and module writers who have a vastly different intepretation of OSR than you do, on account of they do not have to try looking at the world through the lining of their own anuses like you are. Do yourself a favor, and remove your head from your ass already.>one guy who hates 2e for no reasonHis (or we can stop playing around and just go ahead and say your) reasons are personal, effectively arbitrary to rest of us. Why you're so committed to being a shitstain on this board and trying every little deceit you can try is for you to know and for you to care about.
>>97677675>>but if you're not the anon I asked the questions of That's the issue dude, you have replied to multiple people as if they are the same person. I got pulled in at some point but had no fucking idea what you were talking about. You are not following a chain, you are just grabbing any post you think fits.
>>97677700He literally said "as per the /osrg/ topic" because they're talking about the other thread, dude. It's all that other guy ever wants to talk about>Why /osrg/ Is Bad and How I Am Mad>(And you should be too!)
Is every thread on /tg/ just yelling nutsacks now? Can we talk about 2e? Thinking about shelling out for the Dark Sun Box but it's a little steep. Just how hard are all these little maps and pamphlets gonna make my pp?
>>97677812I mean I've been known to buy modules just for the maps, so...fairly?
>>97677812They are nice, but it depends on the cost if it's worth it or not
>>97677765>you are just grabbing any post you think fits.No, I asked one question, of one guy, and then I replied to the answers I got. If a bunch of other people got involved without even bothering with the context, how's that my fault? We're all Anon here, you know. I can summarize for you very simply if you like:Anon claimed that the /osrg/ is being derailed by one, single guy, who has an irrational hatred of 2e and is gatekeeping it for no reason. I asked him to explain how come, in that case, that one anon has blog posts from years ago backing up his claim. As far as I can see, there are only two possibilities here:#1: Anon himself created those blogs, specifically to troll the /osrg/ and wrest control of it from literally everyone else posting in that general, OR#2: At least one of the blogs belongs to someone else, which implies directly that the idea that 2e doesn't belong, no matter how wrong it might be in whatever way, is *not* just some arbitrary shit invented by one guy, but a self-consistent idea that's been out there in the OSR for some time. That in turn suggests that Anon's claim is hyperbolic at best and in fact it's more likely that the "2e haters", let's say, are at minimum a strong minority with sincere beliefs, not just a lone sperg.Now, it seems obvious to me that #1 is absurd, the amount of work that would go into it is simply infeasible, even if it were for a better purpose than commandeeering an obscure general on /tg/. So I'm asking Anon who posted these claims what exactly it is he means, and how I've misunderstood him if I have.>>97677715Okay, well, this is just a full blown chimp spergout, though, which I guess is as clear an answer as I could get, in its way. I'm not in /osrg/! I'm not making that thread, though even if I were, in fact it wouldn't matter, because I just asked *you* questions, about *your* claims, in *this* thread. And I'm forced to conclude that it's the others who are right: you're a crazy sperg or troll.
>>97677946You really can't do the "i am reasonable" act very well. You might as well have given up earlier, but you wouldn't be you if you didn't double-down when pushed into a corner.
>>97678000>act>double-down>pushed into a cornerAlright, crazy it is.
Making a general comment, when I read the second paragraph of the letter in that pic, the paragraph with PHB quote about 'everything can be altered' I thought I was reading a rebuttal to the "Eric, you seem to have confused D&D with AD&D ... uniformity of play" line that was recently posted in a pic somewhere. Instead I find that the accusation of confusion was itself meant to be, and failed to be, rebuttal of everything can be changed.>>97676143>1e's initial goal of creating a strict tournament-style rulesetThe quote from PHB just referenced above is contrary to that, not contradictory, just contrary. Like it may have been intended that the rules as written, except the bits that contradict the other bits, could have been maybe intended as that but Gygax goes on at great length about adapting the game to suit your "milleu" which is for your campaign, that's outside of tournaments.>OSR was about preserving old gamesThat's a contentious point, but only contentious because it ignores facts and I would not hesitate to say it's a wrong statement or at best half a truth. On deeper inspection calling that half true would be found to be excessively generous. When OSR gelled as a term it was about adapting existing rules systems. Hackmaster being at the pointy end of OSR was sourced from Dragonsfoot more than 21 years ago. C&C being OSR is about to turn 21 this month, if it hasn't already reached that milestone. Neither of those are about preserving old games. One of them hacks apart older versions of rules and recombines them, that's not preserving an older game, and the other hacked the then current rules, also not older games. C&C's existence predates the infamous call for reprints, which itself only acknowledged that an OSR was alrady occurring, though comically C&C released to the public the day after that post was made.
>>97677812You ever seen the cloth map that came with the revised box set?
>>97678018You were just told how your bullshit blogs are just bullshit, and yet you want to keep pretending to be some neutral guy just asking questions. Drop the act, what little of it you think still is holding up.Do we really need to dig into the archive to show you posting those blogs before and getting demolished for doing so? Hell, many of the claims in those blogs were even challenged and refuted by the handful of people who visited those blogs and offered the lonely cunts the grace of a comment. You even tried to sidestep the part of the post calling out how dumb you hoping to rely on that bullshit was, all in a transparent effort to commit some good old fashioned gaslighting.You are, quite simply, a duplicitous little shit, and nowhere near as clever as you imagine you are. Now, go ahead and double-down even further while being well aware it's just going to reveal more of what kind of lies you're willing to try.Or, for once, do the smart thing, and fuck off.
>>97677715>The 2e cutoff is arbitrary bullshitoh well bitch, get over it.
>>97669650In that case we could include Kalamar, for 3rd parties. The list goes on and on.Even if we keep it to just official including Dragon, Game of Thrones got adapted to 3e there. Not sure how extensive the adaptation is, aside from some NPCs I think, it was just in one issue.
>>97678053>When OSR gelled as a termIt technically still has not, with people still offering several competing definitions, up to even arguing what the R stands for. Old School Renaissance can be seen as early as 2004. Old School Revival, however, can be seen as early as 2003. And there's even some who go by "Revolution", but let's not talk about them.>Neither of those are about preserving old games.C&C was deliberately made so that Gygax could port over older Greyhawk adventures as well as to continue the setting. This was a big selling point of the system, along with the idea that it was a system that really captured the "old school" spirit. The amount of times that "old school" was uttered in the marketing is actually almost off-putting in retrospect.Hackmaster was not made by people in the OSR, but it was used by people in the OSR community. You're right that it wasn't made with the intent to preserve old games, but it was used as a substitute for them since it did preserve many elements of those older games.The OSR was not a group of historians meticulously preserving every aspect of old games. They wanted to preserve the elements they thought were worth keeping around, to present idealized, rose-tinted versions in lieu of what 3rd edition had wrought. This was in part because WotC did hold all the rights to those older editions, but it was also just because people be like that.Also, there were people expressing a fear of no more reprints as early as 2002, and many more in 2003, before C&C was published in 2004. Though C&C existence was known and being developed around 2003, it's publish date does not precede people discussing and expressing a desire for reprints.
>>97677555>he must necessarily be citing an idea that existed in the OSRYou need to look at the date of those posts. They will be after the origins of OSR by a large margin.When osrg was started on 4chan it was incontrovertibly welcoming to 2e. When the OSR started it wasn't C&C, that was early on but it goes back to Hackmaster which was heavily 2e based. 2e was at forefront of OSR.First ten years is a much later invention, maybe 2009 at the earliest, maybe not even then. That 4chan was still happy with 2e as OSR in 2015 says that this first ten years line didn't make widespread impact till after that date, but some people active in the OSR scene, albeit with different emphasis, were saying the OSR was actually dead by then. What we have now is post-OSR or new-OSR. Some people talk about nuSR but that's a very different thing to nuSR. What we have promoted on 4chan's /osrg/ is new-OSR. These loud people have taken a very different approach to what OSR is, one that is not the same as the OSR of 18 to 20+ years ago when OSR arose.
>>97678181>new-OSR>sticking to the first decade of D&D is now "new-OSR"youre a worthless nogames shitsucker lmao
>>97678181>incontrovertibly welcoming to 2eNot true, but it was tolerated for the most part>2e was at forefront of OSROkay, this is just plain horseshit. Most of the internet marks the beginning of the end of the old school as the publication of Dragonlance in 1984, /osrg/ just follows suit. Are you really trying to claim that Dragonlance does not mark a significant change in the focus of D&D?
>>97678075>You were just told how your bullshit blogs are just bullshitYou do understand that a mere assertion has little power to convince and none to compel, right? Right?>you posting those blogs beforeAgain, I've never actually posted them before (and I had to look up even the names of those blogs), this is just your paranoid fantasies talking. At this point I really doubt you were able to "demolish" anyone for anything, though.>insane persecutory fantasy ravingYeah, now this is *really* convincing me that you're in the right!
>>97678200>Most of the internet NTA, but you're dead wrong. Dead-as-fucking-wrong as can be. So dead wrong, you might as well shut the fuck up, you dumb cunt.>Are you really trying to claim that Dragonlance does not mark a significant change in the focus of D&D?Jesus fucking christ. You might as well claim Ravenloft was a significant change in the focus of D&D. Or Tomb of Horrors. Or the Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan.The end of the "old school" was never established with a firm fixed date or by some paradigm shift, and it certainly isn't the one you've arbitrarily decided upon and then mistakenly argue that Dragonlance started in 2e somehow. The best you could say is that in the era of 3rd edition, "old school" referred to the preceding editions, but even that wasn't cut and dry.>Not true, but it was tolerated for the most partIt was welcoming. People discussed it frequently, in just about every thread, and much of the shitposting involving 2e was actually people shitposting about how 2e was the best system.
>>97678241This might come as a surprise to you, but no one worships those bloggers in the same way you do, so you kind of stand out. I'm glad you've also thrown away any effort to disguise yourself, since you're just straight back into ineffectual shitposting rather than your embarrassing attempt at pretending you could argue.
>>97678249>much of the shitposting involving 2e was actually people shitposting about how 2e was the best system.Yes, and the obnoxious 2e posters (sic) who showed up to do that whenever somebody dared to say that 2e was offtopic is a big part of why the general became less and less tolerant of 2e. But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?
>>97678257>worships those bloggersfuck off, fishfag
>>97678249>The end of the "old school" was never established with a firm fixed datethats cool, we still dnot care, and the cutoff is the first ten years. keep bitching, fishfag
>>97678347What the fuck are you cunts in this thread?
>>97678372its unpleasant when trolls shit up your thread, huh?ouch
>>97678249>argue that Dragonlance started in 2e somehowNobody ever did this, retardo. The argument is the opposite: AD&D stopped being old-school years before 2e even came out, so how can 2e be old-school? It's not, it's adapted for the needs of the new, Mormon style in every particular.
>>97678376Go back to your thread and jack off to gold for XP or something cunt.
>>97678380lol mad, nogames bitch?
>>97678380You ruin every thread you're in, it's no wonder people hate you
>>97678399>OP specifically made the thread to avoid you>you follow after him regardless, claiming it's other people that everyone hatesDude. What kind of sign do you need to comprehend that you're the one everyone hates?
>>97678409>follow after him>by which I mean meYour weird persecution complex is noted, faggot
>>97678417Not OP, man. I also wouldn't try to avoid your shitposting, because I know that would just guarantee you to shitpost harder.You are a simple creature made of lies and spite; it's very easy to guess what you would do in any circumstance.
>>97678257>but no one worships those bloggers in the same way you doI had to look them up after seeing them posted in a previous /2eg/. This is unhinged.>I'm glad you've also thrown away any effort to disguise yourselfYeah okay, completely divorced from reality. I'm starting to think you're a literal paranoid schizophrenic. Surprising that the mods haven't done anything about you.
>>97678181>What we have promoted on 4chan's /osrg/ is new-OSR.once again popping into the troll thread to give you some knowledge because it needs to be said.You ever heard of the Knights & Knaves Alehouse? Back when the dragonsfoot forum was popular, the K&K autists spawned out of it. The K&K autists were DF taken to the next level. They were mad about people on DF wanting to talk about any non-1e games. DF no longer was pure enough for them, so they started flame wars. They got kicked off the site, so they made their own forum called Knights & Knaves Alehouse. It ultimately died and petered out, not even managing to reach 1200 registered accounts.Point being, K&K/BroSR is the root of the small handful of (but mainly from what i've seen, one particular guy) trolls trying to gakekeep 2e from the /osrg/, and who initially made /2eg/ as a troll thread to try and push any discussion into this "Quarrantine" thread and pretend >"Look guys 2e is totally not OSR! go talk about it here! it's proof"
>>97678525>It's the BroSR K&KA cabal, I tells ya!Do you wear big floppy clown shoes when you post?
>>97678521>I had to look them upcan you link me?>>97678525MEDS
>>97678532>>97678540You know i'm extremely tempted to compile a full list of receipts on what's been happening after stepping away from the /osrg/only issue is mainly even if i can make it, what could even be done with it? Send it to the admins as a full on report and get the sickness expunged?
>>97678525>>It ultimately died and petered out, not even managing to reach 1200 registered accounts.This seems to be a theme with that small group. Mindless hate and trolling, so they keep getting kicked out of places and trying and failing to build purest replacements.
>>97678525>trying to gakekeep 2e from the /osrg/its off topic and the mods upheld this.blow it out your ass.>>97678544Yeah, compile a drive of evidence, then contact the mods VIA IRCtheyve dealt with him before when he went crying to them and they told him to fuck off lol
>>97678556>>97678544https://www.4chan-x.net/4chan-irc.htmleasiest way to get on their IRC
>>97678556>theyve dealt with him before when he went crying to them and they told him to fuck off lolOh no, i mean't /you/ . and the Mod i spoke to said the problem isn't for me to deal with, but for mods and jannies.And reporting via IRC get's you a ban.
>>97678532NTA, but that's basically the gist of it all.A dying cult of grognards, seeking new blood but having a doctrine so fragile it needs an echo chamber simply to persist.I'd almost feel bad for you, if you weren't such a piece of shit.
>>97678568lol you got btfo and said you were going to go away. that lasted, what, a week?
>>97678544>compile a full list of receiptssure, we'd love to see it
>>97678572i haven't posted in the /osrg/ since then, like i said.Nor am i going to. It's funny you keep claiming i still do and accusing people of being of me, like i knew you would.>>97678577it may take a bit, but i can do it. Only concern is if i can fully document trollcows behavior, not much will come out of it outside of a fully compiled list. I'd want it to be submitted to staff and him and his cronies perma'd.
>>97678540>can you link me?Sure, here you go: https://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/97552533/#97566392
>>97678588Make sure to include the times he spent several hours putting on a puppet show with himself to flood a thread with shitposts.https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96881801/#q96887950
>>97678556>Yeah, compile a drive of evidence, then contact the mods VIA IRC>theyve dealt with him before when he went crying to them and they told him to fuck off lolYou're talking to that same retard, kekIf you want a dossier of his shenanigans to submit to the mods you'll have to compile it yourself, he wants to try to report literally all the rest of us.
>>97678594>These are representative of the OSR community and describe the common consensus understanding that has always been in place, on and off this board. Says who?
>>97678602I think you meant to link>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96881801/#96886180
>>97678588>It's funny you keep claiming i still dowho are you quoting?>>97678594>>97678602lol he btfo you with gay giraffes >>97678604>You're talking to that same retardRealized too late! And I might, but honestly? Bullying him is so much more fun.I'm still desperate to see another fake character sheet.
>>97678602Oh, i /will/I'll also reference as many of the deleted/hijacked threads as i can.
>>97678606>Says who?The /osrg/, I guess? Or if Schizo Anon's theory is correct, the one guy ruling it with an autism fist. I'm just answering the question where I saw those blog posts, I can't answer as to the actual poster's ideas.
>>97678611>lol he btfo you with gay giraffesWhat? I'm >>97678594 and I don't really get this, I linked to a totally different thread. Did you reply to the wrong person?
>>97678623retard
>>97678612Let me get this straight: you're going to report to the mods... that the mods deleted a shit ton of your hijack OPs? Sometimes like three in ten minutes as you just made new ones in a sharting frenzy and they just knocked them down immediately? And you think this is going to convince the mods of... what, exactly?
>>97678612its YOUR salty nogames threads that get deleted, fishfag.mods already told you to fuck off, please do
Anyone used a vending AC in Thier games? I noticed it being used in some OSR games and I personally find it easier to grasp.
>>97678602There's also the time, during an ACKS kickstarter, that he tried to export his autism to the /5eg/ and had his posts deleted.https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96554041/#q96557498Then later that week tried it again in the /3eg/, where he got bullied so hard by the people there he delivered some weapons-grade cringe.https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96434718/#q96583816
>>97678652kys retard>>97678662based ACKS spreader
>>97678662Also, originally he was getting banned in the /osrg/, and would immediately ban evade and start saying the janitor banning him was also his fishfag.https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/janny%20fishfag/page/2/
>>97678662>>97678695Hey, while you're seething about the based ACKStec, don't forget your claim that he wrote his entire 200-page play report solely to spite you, lmao
What is ACK?
>>97678695>eight months ago
>>97678775It's an over complicated B/x clone with a hard core, but small fan base. They have been driven from most RPG sites for bad behavior
>>97678790>They have been driven from most RPG sites for bad behaviorbased, rpgnet and reddit/osr are deplorable
Update to the Sorcerer, plus an attempt at a dedicated shapeshifter class (no spellcasting - basically Doric from the D&D movie)1/4
>>97678826Someone is a sad wittle snowflake.
>>976788372/2
>>97678839lol okay?
>>976788453/4
>>976788494/4
>>97678837This is looking solid!
>>97678849This is also an interesting idea.
>>97678849You called the Morrigan "Cletic", but besides that it's not bad.
>>97678902 >>97678861Oddly the C and L keys aren’t even the ones breaking on my computer, I’m just retarded.Anyway, the shapeshifter is broadly much better than the druid at shapeshifting. Plus they get hide and move silently at the same rate as rangers, plus climb walls and detect noise. And their level gain is very fast, note quite thief but faster than clerics and even druids. This is still on the priest class chassis, too, so second-best HD, second-best THAC0 progression, and very good saves.However, in exchange, they don’t get spells at all, save the ability to talk to animals and be immune to polymorph. So I *think* the class should be basically balanced.I dunno, I just never really thought of druids as spellcasters. My conception of them in fhe ‘90s was influenced by Diablo and Cultists of Fervus from Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim. Doric from Honor Among Thieves was what I always imagined druids to be like, not spell-slingers.Might refine the class to allow for transforming into other monsters besides ordinary animals. Owlbears, natch. Also rust monsters. I love those little guys.
I've played two campaigns of AD&D 2nd edition which have lasted for roughly 1-2 years each. I took a power-gaming approach with both of them where I basically had:*Generous ability score generation method which guaranteed at least two ability scores of 15 for starting characters.*PCs start off with max HP at level 1, best of two and always reroll 1's.*Standing on death's door rules.*Gave out a decent amount of magic items at the start but ramped it up as the game went on. At the time I thought giving out unique magic items could lead to more interesting scenarios, such as a dagger of invisibility (but the expiry time is randomly rolled) or a wondrous figure, warhorse which allows the PC to enter the astral plane and do all sorts of things like, bypass massive sections of my dungeon.*Gave out loads of treasure as well they would spend it on ensuring they had plenty of healing potions, scrolls with raise dead and full plate for every person and horse. I stopped handing out treasure at level 5-6 because they have so much already, why bother?*We had plenty of PC deaths but only one where it was permanent because that player got lost at sea.These games tend to be fun but get really boring at around level 7 when the enemies have lots of HP and the fights just seem to drag on forever. It requires a lot of effort to make the fights fun and exciting.Now I'm thinking of doing the opposite the next time I get a chance to play with a big group:*3d6 down the line*Roll HP flat, no re-rolls*Death at 0 HPWhat has been the experience of some of y'all playing with this method?
>>97664257>It's basicIt didn't used to be, it used to have a lot of depth and thoughtfully crafted history to the point that it became known that there were barriers of entry for newcomers because it felt daunting to learn all the lore, even though you technically didn't have to and it could be run vanilla as you like too.Now after 4 and 5e its just another shallow fantasy setting to set the same "orcs attacked the village" type adventures over and over forever with less nuance between factions and political bodies.
>>976813784e fucked the setting hard. 2e and even 3e realms was so full of lore and interesting places. It was fantastic
>>97680618>>*3d6 down the line*Roll HP flat, no re-rolls*Death at 0 HPWhat has been the experience of some of y'all playing with this method?I have never used such methods and honestly never would. Because as a player that would not be fun to me.
>>97681626less investment on characters because they suck a lot more and die much more easily.The funnel but it's the first 3 levels instead of level 0
>>97682039Even back in the day I never viewed it like that. But we always used the 4d6, drop lowest and arrange to taste method.
>>97680618I have no experiemce with that, but this>>97681626Bigger chance of rolling bad, may not be able to pick your class of choice, just "well guess I'm stuck with this until my character hopefully fucking DIES". Sounds more like a chore.
>>97682218top down 3d6 drop lowest +6
>>97681618I will die on the hill that the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book is one of the best D&D setting guides ever printed.And yeah. 4e fucked it all up. 5e Realms is still not good, but it’s nevertheless still a damn sight better than 4e Realms.>>97682039 >>97682170I’m torn, personally. I want character with actual flaws. The problem is that 3d6, even arranged to taste, produces an array of [14,12,11,10,9,7] on average. The 14 isn’t enough to be good but the 7 IS enough to be bad.But 4d6 drop lowest produces an array of [16,14,13,12,10,9], which is the opposite problem. The 16 is good enough to be good, but the 9 isn’t bad enough to matter.Maybe shift some points around? [17,15,14,11,10,7] gives you two good scores and one bad one with the same overall point value as the 4d6 array.
>>97682218>>Bigger chance of rolling bad, may not be able to pick your class of choice, just "well guess I'm stuck with this until my character hopefully fucking DIES". Sounds more like a chore.You mean the 3d6? If so that is how it always looked to me. D&D was my 3rd RPG and that option in the OHB was always a "fuck that". Method 5 was always our go to
>>97682274The 3E FRCS is a masterpiece of campaign book design. Hands down the best one ever printed.As for dice, I honestly like a point buy system as I had players cursed by the dice gods to a degree that a 14 was a godsend stat for them. The last time I ever used rolls we had two ends. Using the same 4 dice.Guy 1: 18,18,18,17,17,16Guy 2: nothing higher that 12, most under 10
>>976816263d6 Straight was the default method in OD&D, and continued into the Basic line, but with AD&D, Gygax set the default to 4d6DL. This is because in designing AD&D, he had put a lot more emphasis on the attributes, so they had a much stronger effect on your character's viability than in the previous versions of D&D, which meant you really needed higher stats just to match the range of earlier characters. Whether this was a good idea or not is debatable, having your characters' long-term viability tied to a random roll you make right at the start encourages this kinda thinking:>>97682218>well guess I'm stuck with this until my character hopefully fucking DIES
>>97680618lol kill yourself
>>97682470Rude.
>>97682534yeah
>>97682534Ignore him. Another day, another attempt to get people to leave this thread.
>>97682274i think you re overthinking the 4d6 drop lowest averages considering the fact that they arent fixed numbers.Me and my friends always liked the randomness of stats and the potential disparity it caused never bothered us much but if you want a more uniform party i would make 3-5 stat arrays (potentially more) that have the exact stat distributions that you like and let your players chose from one of those.Another way would be juicing up the 3d6 by either giving them a sure 15 on a prime stat for their class of choice or allow them to roll a 1-2 more rolls and keep the 6 best. Not sure about the maths but it is most probably less than what you would get from 4d6 drop lowest
>>97676569DMs shouldn't have the power to tell their players how their game is run. That's the job of the rules. That's why we pay game developers money, to buy their books. The rules are an impartial arbiter and the DM is not. There's plenty of valid reasons why the 2e attitude is not in line with OSR material, where the rules are what matters, not the DMs shitty opinion about what they want to force the players to do to keep them on their story railroad.
>>97682761if you dont trust one of your friends enough to have fun together playing make believe with dice assistance then maybe you shouldn't be in this hobby and i say that with zero hostility towards you
>>97682761Go play a computer game, TTRPGs are not what you are looking for.
>>97682840
