Is it possible to build a competitive game - or a game mode - where overcompetitive tryhards cut every corner imaginable, push as hard as possible, have no regard or respect for others, and what they strive to achieve doesn't crush their opponent?I was thinking of a gamemode where they get points for narrative, spectacle, pleasantness, or maybe votes, things like that and then winning/losing the game doesn't matter, so they funnel all of their autism into being nice to others and flavorful just to get that gold medal.And after every game you hear them gloating>those FUCKING noobs know nothing about REAL narrative fluff and fairness, my build is TWICE as fun as theirs to play against, the trophy is already mine, those idiots don't stand a chance! That idiot even forgot to say "thank you" after borrowing dice, he doesn't stand a chance!
>>97686785Autists will just optimize the fun out of any system you can devise.>my army has two paragraphs of background fluff, so I get 4 points. I didn't swear or yell all game, so that's another 6. All my models count as fully painted, 10 points. And I won the game, 15 points.
Well balanced options and intuitive game mechanics are the only real way. People just straight up ignore the +points for anything but the game most of the time. Kill team having no list building and the pretty clear cause-effect of the rules makes it pretty fun to play even with a vast skill/sweat gap, where 40k is so ass when the two players aren't on the same page for the inverse reasons.
>>97686785Is your game TRULY well-balanced?No? Congrats, you fucked up.
>>97686785It's impossible and frankly it's fucking retarded that you are asking if you can make a competitive game that essentially doesn't attract competitive people.You want to avoid 'competitive' people then you only play one off or linked scenarios in games with asymmetrical forces that are fixed in their composition. That's it. That's how. If they can't list build, if it doesn't appear a 'even' fight then the competitive faggot who just wants to win isn't interested.This is not conducive to pick up games, but on the plus side can be done with basically any game, even shit tier GW ones like the ones in your pic.It just takes time, effort, and a particular play group.
>>97686807>>97686885I admit my examples were stupid, but that's the thing: I believe I haven't cracked the code, just awarding points like that doesn't work/doesn't matter.We would need another system but I can't come up with anything.>it's impossibleI don't know, I think it's very hard, I'm not sure it's absolutely impossible.
>>97686785MTG has it and it's called "Draft". Add a random aspect to the gameplay and have people rely on being good at adapting rather than following a stiff meta and sweaties will mostly get frustrated.
>>97686952How does it work?What would the drawbacks be if it became the "main" way to play?
Yes. Just don't have a cash or status reward for the winner. As soon as you monotise something or act as if winning a fucking game with toys makes the winner a demigod, it usually brings out the worse in people.
>>97687104here's the thing though:the tryhard competitive gamers have a negative effect for the game....but they also have an important positive effect:they show up, they play a lot, they learn the rules, they playtest and they find flaws. They are active.If you buy the product and then play with your son in your free time, that's great, but you're not part of a "scene" that has growth and discussion.I like that, I like that the competitive players create that community around them. I want them in.But I would like it if people could say:>who am I facing next? Someone who tries to score as much as possible, a real autist? Okay, let's go! I'm in for a good game!
>>97686785>Is it possible to build a competitive game - or a game mode - where overcompetitive tryhards cut every corner imaginable, push as hard as possible, have no regard or respect for others, and what they strive to achieve doesn't crush their opponent?Highly unlikely>I was thinking of a gamemode where they get points for narrative, spectacle, pleasantness, or maybe votes, things like that and then winning/losing the game doesn't matter, so they funnel all of their autism into being nice to others and flavorful just to get that gold medal.Please do, that sounds pleasant.
>>97686785No. And unfortunately these kinds of games are the games are largely what people want despite that. Narrative and scenario games are always better, but people want to make a list and run that list for everthing.They are playing it as a sport and less like a game of war where the sides are clearly not balanced and you have to come up with tactics to attempt to win. Its less for fun and more for competition.
>>97686973Basically people need to build a deck on the spot from a pool of recently open pack of cards.Some people bitch because they are only left with shit cards, but since they are taking one card at the time and have to make a plan on the spot, so how shit a card is depends entirely on what other cards you have.For a wargame? No idea how you would do that. I recently stumble upon Void Admiral (space ship combat) everyone has 4 ship types so in theory with 30 models spread across the 4 ship types. You could proxy every fleet and force to make a list on the spot from a random pick up.But wargames are not really thought with turbo competitive in mind.It's like trying to carry a big cargo on a bike, you could do it, but using a truck would be a better idea. In this case a video game would be better suited for this kind of mentality.
>>97686785You cant. Those metrics you named are too subjective.>>97686807Autist? There are people that will do anything to own others or to win.
When a meassure becomes a goal it ceases to be a good meassure
>>97687711When a game becomes full win focused, it becomes less fun. Thats why many videogames goes to shit when e-sports is involved or you get into high ranking.
>>97687752That is not the problem. The problem is when the game is designed so that playing to win and playing for fun diverge into two totally different ways of playing.
There was a game like that, Warmachine. However wokies infiltrated and destroyed it. Same thing happened to Magic the Gathering. Now all of us HIGH TEST COMPETITIVE GODS are changing Warhammer into an actual game (to the anger of no-games lore autists everywhere).No, grog, blast templates sucked and were gay. I don't care about your pretty board it is a chore to be blasted off of it by turn 2 every time. If you hate how 40k is going just go play historicals with the boomers.
>>97686785No. You can make it too random to appeal to competitive players, but if you have a system then people can game the system. Same problem with measuring job performance: if you have clear metrics then the people that want to succeed will optimise for those instead of actually doing their jobs.
>>97686785They do that in a lot of AOS tournaments. I know a guy who scores in the top 50 nationally by just being really nice
>>97686878The closer you get to true balance, the more you end up with a game that's just random chance. May as well have a machine that random generates a number for every participant. Highest number wins. That was no amount of skill, natural talent, genetic gift, foreknowledge, or any other factor can favor any player.
>>97688729This. Balance is fucking gay. Its just results in equivelents, everything feels the same and the only difference is if the dice decide to roll in your favour.
>>97688784That's a solved game, not a balanced game.
>>97687595Battletech has Random Assignment Tables that you can roll forces on. Its not a popular way to play but I find it fun to have to deal with sub optimal lists.
Keyforge tried doing that.You can't modify the decklist and you're supposed to swap decks for game two and swap back for game three if you went 1-1 with a handicap.
>>97686785>I was thinking of a gamemode where they get points for narrative, spectacle,that's called a style competition, and it's rather hard to do in turn based games, but in real time ones like fighting games you can see a lot of cool shit because people are competitive.
>>97687595>For a wargame? No idea how you would do that.Pirates CSG came in card packs but played like a wargame so it can be done.
>>97687810>if you hate bad game go play good gamethat's sooooo true bestie, hey you should join us sometime, we could always use more players for the bigger scenarios
>>97689392The two are synonymous. Chess is often held up by balancefags as an example, but when was the last time a genuinely new stratagem was employed to win a chess match? It's "balanced" so there are only a finite number of ways to win in any given scenario, resulting in a game where the best player is the one who can memorise the most already extant solution-patterns.
>>97690803>The two are synonymousNo they're not lol. A solved game is often the most unbalanced game there is because the side with advantage (usually the one going first) wins every time bar possible random elements.
>>97686785It's called chess. Seriously.Why? Annoying try hards are *always* pseuds. If you play on a high enough level, you don't have to deal with people compensating for their own inadequacy.
>>97686785>have no regard or respect for othersIt will get ruined no matter how good you make it then, someone devoid of goodwill towards their fellow man will cope and flip the whole table just to make a big mess so they can get away with a few free scraps.
ok ...i see a plastic marine statue, so 5thed 40k.which means 4thed eldar codex.the guy is running 20 wraithguard and double farseer.considering his wraith guard have 12" range and he is up against: 2 leman russ battle tanks 1 demolisher 1 basaliskhe is probably shitting himself as he rolls a psyhic test for fortune on 3d6 (runes of witnessing), all so he can gain re-roll saves. <slow fucking clap>which will be cover saves of 5+ in those trees.as his armour aint going to do shit againt that basaliskAlso there isnt fuck all left of anything else of the eldar army on the tableso isnt exactly an image of a power gamer here....more likely a dumbass eldar player that didnt buy wave serpants and is about to get his shit pushed in by a gaurd player camping like a bitch at the back of the table.
>>97686785You can play a really tight rules, wysiwyg army list with limited allies, random thematic terrain in DBX games.I kind of think most ASOBH based games are fairly balanced. One Hour Wargames is straight up rolling for your army, interesting scenarios but very simple combat and lists, very rock paper scissors
>>97690945Eldar theme lists kind of suckThe Eldar designers kind of intended Guardians to be crew / Landwehr and for there to be more aspects / pro guardians
>>97690853This 100%. I came here to post this. Chess is the ultimate game for competitive sweats. The rules are simple to learn but extremely hard to master, both sides are as symmetrical as humanly possible for a two player game, with no advantages for one side or the other. The problem is these faggits try to play Wargames which are full of abstractions and variables, but they want them to be symmetrical like chess. And this is where we get games that look like pic related
>>97690624More players than 1? Bigger scenarios than "entirely in your head"
>>97690945Its not even good in the current edition, attatching farseers to a wraith unit makes the entire squad inherit the hero's weakness to anti-infantry
>>97686785>random missions rolled on standard force organization basis similar to 3rd/4th ed 40k >random table terrain placement>secret objectives for extra points similar to 2nd ed mission cards Now both players have to create a narrative for that mission. 3 paragraphs group writing assignment. 1st paragraph has to be intro to the battle, 2nd is mid battle and 3rd is the conclusion. Failure to complete a written account satisfying to both players and representative of the results counts as a loss for both sides. To prevent the petulant from cheesing this and refusing to write thus causing their opponent to lose in the overall standings, each written section will be vetted by the tournament game masters. All written accounts will be posted and a side contest for best writing will be had, similar to best painted and best sportsmanship.
>>97691349>I WANT THAT WRITTEN ASSIGMENT ON MY DESK BY TWELVE O'CLOCK!
>>97691349Wow that sounds extremely fun and engaging (Not)
>>97686785Of course. Basic game design dictates that precanned synergies is always a bad idea, but people also luv combo combos. Most of what you are talking about is because list building is not a good design choice either. If you want to have it it should be heavily restricted as to how you can.But also the other really big one is to force random scenarios, so that it’s impossible to min max. The 40k tourney scene right now has fuckin pre-planed board layouts down to the angstrom. I know people who literally practice identifying los patterns; they just memorize things ahead of time so they don’t actually have to think when it comes time to play. Don’t let players do this ever.The best game experience is the one where you have to solve the problems on the fly and try your hardest, but without any preconceived advantage of any kind.
>>97692187The current state of the 40K competitive scene in my area is everyone is holding eachother hostage with C’tan and then practicing on TTS with friends playing C’tan as OpFor with their actual armies. Literally 5 people bought full Necron armies to be meta.
>>97692312>Literally 5 people bought full Necron armies to be meta.Working as intended.
>>97691054>>97690853Thats a good point. Chess is so uncomplex that it is the best balanced game while being still complex to create ranks.
>>97686785>And after every game you hear them gloatingNice, -20 points for badmouthing their opponent, deducted from the rest of the season.
>>97691383>>97691386>filtered by being unable to use your imagination and be friendly to make a better gaming experienceThe system works, you just aren't competitive.
>>97686785Heavy randomization works.>>97687104People will get sweaty (and salty) even if there's no reward, see: every videogame with a ranked mode ever.
>>97692616>being friendly = handing out writing assigmentsWhat was your diagnosis again?
>>97692880>doesn't understand the group requirement >your diagnosis lol
>>97690853>If you play on a high enough level, you don't have to deal with people compensating for their own inadequacy.If you pay any attention to high level chess you will know that this is absolutely NOT true lmao
So you want to make a performative competitive game, and you win by being an insuffeable drama club teen?
>>97692907Anon... This is not a classroom. The teacher is not real. The accident wasn't your fault. You have to let us go.
>>97686785The real answer, that nobody wants to hear, is gatekeeping.Trying to legislate autistic dickheads into behaving like affable human beings is an exercise in sisyphean cock and ball torture.Let subhumans flock to "inclusive" GW and WOTC slop, while you ruthlessly exclude them.
There is literally nothing stopping people from playing their games that way. They just don't do it because it's not fun
>>97686785sure, it's very achievable if your ruleset is moderately tight and well balanced. It's not possible with GW games, obviously, because they haven't proofread, playtested or fixed glaring issues with any of their half assed games in 25+ years. fortunately they're not the norm. the rest of the minis wargaming hobby manages sweaty waac players just fine.
>>97693026>welcome to the competitive tournament>if you aren't a cucked retard who lets everyone win for no reason you aren't even human okayname one other competition where this is the expectation
>>97686952Draft is insanely try hard. People dissect formats and make flowcharts listing what card you should pick in every possible situation a minute after the set is released
>>97693006Anon, you've already put more effort into whatever fictional austims fixation you have than you would have to do 300-500 words about a game universe you already have a lot of knowledge about and an entire army of your doods to build on. Get good scrub.
>>97686785Yea start your own narrative campaign and leave the sweats alone they deserve their fun too. You get posts like OP in all walks of life. Not so bad in minis games but these conversations go on with sporting events and worst of all martial arts competitions and sometimes you just have to ask Where do you think you are…
>>97693026lol
>>97694414>name one other competition where this is the expectationNo.
>>97694414>play in competitive tournaments>this means it is LEGALLY MANDATED to blast the absolute shit at the 14yo kids and Casual Dads playing for fun at the gym you train at because otherwise how will they learn to be EPIC ASSHOLES like you?Name one other competition where the concept of "basic sportsmanship and decency" and "not being a fucking faggoty twatbag" don't apply.People don't hate tourneyshitters because you play competitively, everyone hates you because you literally act like that one kid who's dad worked in real estate and bullies them if they're not "acting like winner(asshole)" at all times.
>>97696480>I lost so I made up something you didn't sayk lol stay seething my friend
>>97695270>torxish tricks
>>97696480low t
Oh look a carebear thread and judging by these weird assumptions, I don't think even half of you have ever played with other people, nevermind tryhards.Maybe keep it at solo snakes and ladders
>>97698297kek
>>97686807>AutistsNah, don't have to be autistic to be a WAACfag.
>>97696480Sounds like someone's seething that other people don't bend over backwards to let them win.What the fuck do you think "competitive tournament" means, you retard?
I get the "be strict with yourself and lenient with your rival" attitude, less social friction creates a more enjoyable environment even if it puts you at a disadvantage. But this goes way beyond that, it seems that some people expect you to just hand them over some victories if you've been winning too much. How can it be fun for them to get a victory they haven't earned? Are they children? How could it be fun for me to just play to lose? if I take my time and energy to go and solve a probability puzzle, why should I not engage with it and leave it unsolved? What am I even there for?
>>97701667The point is not to oust you and your competitiveness, the point is to engineer a game where you can express it in full with no brakes and your opponent will find enjoyment.>but the other posts in this thread-they are off topic
>>97701678meds
>>97701678If you want a game that ls competitive that both sweats and non sweats can enjoy look at BloodBowl, I've had zero problems in that game so far. List building is almost non existant, good players will win more often than not but there is enough randomness for the average player to have a chance and is tile-based so no LoS/Measurement disputes.
>>97701423>implying WAACfags aren't on the spectrum
>>97701716do you think the tiles are a big part of it?
>>97701752Absolutely, not only from my own observation but from several BB players I've talked to. Measuring and line of sight are elastic factors that rely too much on the players themselves, specially at the very edge cases when things are unclear. I suppose you can rule that when measurement is unclear it favours the model doing the action, since doing things is more fun than doing nothing, but tiles are the cleanest solution.
>>97690853I lost to you?! No Impossible - you must have hid a vibrator up your ass, connected to stockfish 200 giving you instructions through precise prostate stimulation. How could you make me look like a looser you damn cheater!I'm so calm I slam my fist on the table after I lost to show my opponent how calm I am.Truly no need to compensate here.
>>97701678>the point is to engineer a game where you can express it in full with no brakes and your opponent will find enjoymentThat's Blood Bowl. The game is competitive by design and filters tourists extremely well. We have an entire non-profit dedicated to tracking tournament records going back 23 years.
>>97701752Above anon here, measuring is cringe and a square grid is always superior. Look at the Rommel wargaming rules from Sam Mustafa if you want to see ww2 played on a grid.However, what makes Blood Bowl extremely competitive is the Turnover mechanic. Google 'blood bowl base ru', the entire rulebook is up online. If you Google 'NAF recommendations' you will find the current tournament errata that the community wrote since the new rulebook was written by mentally retarded people and needs fixing. So until GW release their own errata the community just forked the ruleset. This is what casual leagues use too, because it leaves no ambiguity in rulings. But back to design talk, three turnover mechanic means that every decision matters and every dice roll can end your turn prematurely. It's extremely tense and engaging. I'm never just sitting there watching you play, I'm sitting there waiting for you to fail something and then exploit the gap in your position.
>>97701442daily reminder that this is an extremely gracious drawing of some transtrender who the artist was obsessed with
>>97686785Are you playing to win or not? Sandbagging is offensive to your opponent. Do you really want them to let you win? Would that make you feel good?
>>97702935source: voices in my head
>>97703037source: a photograph of the transtrender in question which was blatantly used as a model for the drawing, it got passed around here on /tg/ for a while at the time. feel free to find it in the archive or just cope and seethe
>I'm just playing for fun>Ugh this game is difficult>I'm losing!? This sucks>Why is that guy trying so hard>I'm just trying to have fun here>I'm really upset I lost>It's their fault I'm upsetI really don't get why people are like this.
>>97703078Looked it up, turns out none of that was true.
>>97704312Well it actually is, so I guess two big scoops of seethe and a ladle and a half of cope coming right up ma'am *snerk*
>>97704412And yet you seem unable to even post any proof.
>>97704648I told you where it was and you would have known about it if you weren't a newfag piece of shit, so you're worthless and I won't do anything for you other than tell you to lurk more so you stop looking so retarded.
>>97686785>I was thinking of a gamemode where they get points for narrative, spectacle, pleasantnessOh boy, I can't wait to watch 2 Orc players voicing all their units in cockney broken english gentle-speak, like they're having a tea party with their dollies. riveting tournament play right there
>>97704678I looked on the archive, retard, and guess what, it's not real. Some made up shit. That's what it is.
>>97704689you're retarded, go back
>>97704763fuck off retard. go hallucinate more culture war bullshit in your corner and stop bothering other people
a tranny just flew over my house
>>97705012Well stop leaving out stale bread and you wouldn't have these problems.
>>97694449Those flowcharts always change with time. At best they're a decent starting point.
>>97704223I remember one guy that was obsessed with the balance in games, banning units that he considers powerful before even the game began and constantly complaining about tryhards, he told me how their life must suck because they want to crush other people. The only thing I could hear was how hard he was projecting as I have seen him dunking on other people when he won.He was the saltiest person I've ever known, and a cheater too.
>>97705918>"with time"motherfucker it's draft we're talking two weeks, opening week where we have speculated and following week where we have reported tournament standingseverything after that is dead fish
>>97706024this nigga drafts
