Various AD&D/OSR threads are full on cancer with autism shitfights and gay nonsense.I am looking to run a megadungeon game for some people who never played anything older than 3.5. I've played some of them but it was a while back myself, and I've been mostly doing retroclones for the last little while. So what I'm asking is to get some takes on AD&D, B/X, AD&D 2e, and BECMI. Names: Rule Complication vs usefulness, ease of learning, strengths/weaknesses, and ease of acquiring physical copies of the book(s). I don't need any modules and minimizing splats is ideal, so if you feel like any of these "cannot be enjoyed" without X extra book(s) please include that information as well.
I started with 2e, so it's my go to if playing something this old. B/X is pretty simple and I don't know how different I is to BECMI. Both versions of AD&D are more complicated.2e is the easiest to find physical copies they made a ton. However 1E has OSRIC and BX has Old School Essentials. Both are clones with better layout. Easy to get.Ease of learning is gonna be B/X with AD&D 1/2e having a lot more options and sub systems added.Personally I would go 2e simply as I like it more. But if you are looking for ease go B/x or one of its many, many clones such as Old School Essentials or Labyrinth lord. Oh also Basic fantasy it's totally free.
AD&D is very dated in many ways that makes it uncomfortable to play for most people. The major value it has is if you can leverage a group's autism, you can replace your own lack of personality or authority with demands that people respect the rules as written and otherwise wield appeals to tradition like a cudgel. You really need to hit the exact middle of a venn diagram of "people who like fiddly rules" and "idiots" to get a group that will like AD&D, and that's not easy.2e is mechanically very similar to AD&D, but relaxed. That puts it in an awkward position where the game really encourages you to make it your own, but that diminishes the "Hey, don't look at me, I'm following the rules" excuse that is the backbone of spineless DMs. You'd want it less for the actual system and more for its settings and lore, which you really can just bring into whatever system you want. 2e is also where we began to see some really stupidly gigantic megadungeons, the kind that could take decades to explore fully and players were never expected to clear more than something like 20% of the map, if that.B/X and BECMI are almost the same system, just BECMI has extra rules primarily aimed at higher levels that are not really that great, written mostly by Mentzer, who basically made a career out of being Gygax's chief sycophant. B/X is an updated version of the Basic edition of Original 1974 D&D, and it's easier to learn than AD&D but still not quite up to the standards of games made with digital typesetting and editing and decades of hindsight and graphic design. There's clones out there like OSE that are B/X but with some more polished editing.Overall, committing to a megadungeon can be a tall order in a system you've never used or even looked through, and you might be better off trying out the different systems with quick one-shots first to see what suits you and your group.
AD&D 1e is nearly unreadable with its haphazard organization, lack of an index and deliberately obfuscated rules design that hides a lot of stuff from the players, including how to roll your fucking characters. It's only of historical interest today.
>>97710295There are reasons so many Clones redid the layout and cleaned up the rules here and there.
>>97710186>are full on cancer with autism shitfights and gay nonsense.I'm sorry anon.There's a hardcore troll retard who is hellbent on hijacking the threads because he has a personal hateboner for 2e for some retarded reason.discussion is basically impossible. i was trying to make pic related happen but the retard wants to scream about 2E IS NOT OSR BECAUSE MUH AUTISTIC GROG MINUTIA & MUH ACKS.I don't know when or if it will get better, all i can do is leave that shitzone alone.Also be careful he will come into the thread screaming about his made up strawman "Fishfag" and project everything he's been doing onto you and me.
>>97710306>>personal hateboner for 2e for some retarded reason.He ranted on gold as XP being a core d&d cornerstone for at lest 8 posts.
Amazing, three word filters tripped in a single post. Don't bring that flame war here. Hope you can get your dungeon thing done anyway.
>>97710315it's unbelievably retarded. i understand wanting to keep certain gameplay elements, but it's another thing to try to autistically bar everything you don't like from the thread.I to this point still do not understand why. Did he get kicked out of a 2e group and harbored a grudge? What does he think will happen once 2e is discussed there again? that the OSR will somehow turn into a dragonlance circlejerk?It's retarded, and i've chosen to abandon the thread for now, and just lurk at most. I will let this retard continue his crusade until he damages the thread even further, eventually gets himself banned or gets bored and leaves.
>>97710306>>97710315Please don't export that guy's autism or drama. Leave it where it is.
>>97710329He will invade this thread as soon as he sees it man. You can't mention 2e and avoid him.I do hope the OP gets plenty of help before that happens though.
>>97710277>Overall, committing to a megadungeon can be a tall order in a system you've never used or even looked through, and you might be better off trying out the different systems with quick one-shots first to see what suits you and your group.This is very reasonable. Honestly, the system is set dressing and some answers to questions as opposed to a full on framework. I could nearly run this with no system, I think. The game I want to run is more about problem solving and decision making than gaming whatever system. Having cool mechanics for the players to use is fine and having playable combat mechanics that make them not hate playing is ideal.
>>97710327Not about that guy, but IRL I often ran into mindless 2e hate with local groups. We had a few that would treat you like smelly shit if they saw you even looking at 2e stuff at the shop.Over time those groups got very isolated and smaller. It's just the mindset of folks unwilling to change and gatekeeping to the point they run everyone but Thier echo chamber off.
>>97710335>>97710329From my personal understanding, He's asleep (for now) based on posting times he sleeps i think around US time. in my personal timezone he stops posting around the afternoon and doesn't start again until like midnight/early AMs
>>97710348>gatekeeping to the point they run everyone but Thier echo chamber off.That's going to be what happens to the /osrg/i mean, i've already left. it's just a matter of waiting it out until they start complaining "HEY WHERE DID EVERYONE GO?" and then likely either fuck off finally, or start trolling other threads and get banned.
>>97710186>I want to avoid drama so I'll make sure the first line of my post is about the drama Sure fish.
>>97710352I have seen this play out many times online over the years. Many times they split off thinking the "true" players will follow them. And they just wither and die in isolation. They can totally kill a community like a cancer before they flame out though.
>>97710295I mean if you want to run AD&D 1e strictly by the book you just have to do more work and memorize all the rules. That was the meme back then, and it is still true today. You can also google stuff pretty well, that will often take you to a forum that quotes a page number.The thing is, AD&D 1e is written like it is patch notes. From the perspective of Gygax, he was bringing in popular houserules and stuff, it is very much like it is OD&D with some new things from much of that writing. He'll be like, we're adjusting this and that, as if it was just one continuous game from the start. Which it arguably simply was. AD&D 2e also has a similar vibe in the forward, but it's much more intentional that it is a different version. It was very unclear as to how to port forward classes like the monk, and eventually it seemed to be understood that there was a very solid break betwixt 1st edition and 2nd edition.Anyway, AD&D 1st edition is a fine choice if you look through all that stuff and think "I can make this super fun". Otherwise, B/X or AD&D second edition is simply the better call.
>>97710355>first line of post is about avoiding the drama>the drama is still the primary discussion topic of the thread
>>97710373Its also from when there are obvious troll posts in /osrg/. Its the same fuckwit.
>>97710369Quick confirmation: B/X is holmes basic/expert from the 70s and BECMI is Moldvay et al from the 80s right?B/X has OSE as a rewrite/clarifying document from modern times and BECMI has the Rules Compendium as similar but from the 90s, yeah?
>>97710369>The thing is, AD&D 1e is written like it is patch notes.The DMG feels very much like this, using the "hidden rules for the DM only" shtick to cover it up a bit.
>>97710373Yo, if you post about AD&D 2e on this thread, this one psycho comes and calls you a fish. That's how this board works. I don't know why the mods don't ban him. Maybe they do and he's good at evading them. He will MAKE the drama look like "the primary discussion topic" by spamming, which he also does in the OSR threads. This isn't true; it's just one psycho spamming the thread. Just respond to the real posts.
>>97710381>>BECMI has the Rules Compendium as similar but from the 90s, yeah?NTA, but from what I recall yes. It may have had a few things added and fuck was that book near impossible to find back in the day.
>>97710382The DMG, which came out later than the PHB, modifies and nerfs a bunch of things in the PHB. I wonder if those were last minute things or if they just didn't get into the PHB as an oversight. Anyway, the patch notes stuff is like: >"Clerics and fighters have been strengthened in relation to magic-users, although not overly so. Clerics have more and improved spell capability. Fighters are mare effective in combat and have other new advantages as well. Still, magic-users ore powerful indeed, and they have many new spells. None of these over-shadow thieves, all recommended sub-classes - druids, paladins, rangers, illusionists, and assassins- as well as the special monk class of character, are included in order to assure as much variety of approach as possible"There's other stuff like this, and then there's other things that are like "play the game this way because everything in it is necessary for a campaign". But it is just written like he was simply in continuous development mode, which I'm sure he was, and the publishing of this was just part of the process. It sounds like the intention was to keep going, keep doing stuff. I really do wish we had had a few more years of Gygax at TSR.
>>977103482e was a betrayal.Gygax built 1e AD&D as a "structured and complete game system aimed at uniformity of play world-wide." He really thought he could make a game with rules so thorough that players could play under different DMs and still have an identical experience. He failed, and failed hard, and this was most immediately apparent during large tournaments with several DMs running identical modules and even being overseen by a higher level of judges, and there was still dramatic differences because players have infinite options and there would always be so much left open to interpretation that needed improvised rulings.At the time, the "AD&D" line was considered split and separate from the "D&D" line, which started with the original D&D and continued with Basic and then B/X and then BECMI. This D&D "promoted alteration and free-wheeling adaptation," something that AD&D "absolutely decried."What 2e did was take AD&D, but offer DMs more flexibility and options, with official variant options and advice aimed at guiding DMs to find what worked best for their own groups, instead of seeking that "uniformity of play world-wide". For people who wanted 1e AD&D's promise of a more rigid "complete game system aimed at uniformity of play world-wide" over D&D's "free-wheeling adaptation", 2e had a philosophy that had moved in the exact opposite direction than the one they had wanted. 2e did this because most people did not actually play 1e that rigidly, but the minority of diehard grognards found this entirely unacceptable. Their hatred is not completely mindless. It's not very honest at times and generally pretty stupid, but the AD&D system went from "Either play in this way, or go play something else!" to "Just play in the way you want", and that's basically telling the first group that their whole gaming philosophy was wrong.
>>97710422these grogs ultimately don't like D&D, they want to autistically consume it to satisfy their hyperfixations and need for structure, and get furious when they see that as under attack.Any reasonable person (or even autistic people that don't have that form of it) can look at D&D and realize there's no true "right" way to play, only wrong ways for particular tables. Trying to force your vision upon a game as open and fluid as D&D will always fail because you have utterly 0 influence over someone elses table. You cannot compell them to run the game a certain way, and neither can they do so to you.So this drama is ultimately a utter shame.
>>97710336If the system isn't the primary focus, why did you pick these 4 to choose from? The OP mentions retroclones, are you looking to improve some section of your experience or gain cred by running "cooler" old systems?
>>97710186I enjoyed BECMI enormously over the years (Played sicne 1982). Comparatively few options when played "as is". Race-as-class simplified a lot, although it did make halflings (sort of like a Thief but max level 8 without much compensation) and dwarves (Fighter maxing out at Lvl 12 instead of 36. Make what you will of that) ruleswise superflous. AD&D suffered badly from poor structure of the books, but was, mainly and mostly, similar to BECMi but with lots more spells. A proper editor instead of booze and cocaine would have saved Gygax a lot of trouble.AD&D2e was a nicely cleaned up version of AD&D with far more options, and even more spells.Not bad at all if you want something with wider range in terms of classes and races and on-weapon proficiencies. That being said, I have had fun anyway, with all of the above.
>>97710509I like race-as-class because I find races as stat boosts to really annoy me. I am a little displeased to hear BECMI makes dwarves and halflings feel less useful/relevant.Would you say the addition of more spells make AD&D deeper or more interesting, or does it just increase Magic User/Cleric paperwork?
>>97710524I lean heavily towards making it more paperwork-heavy.A lot of the spells did more-or-less the same things but with different names. Damage, mobilty enhancing/impeding, healing, scrying and so on.Sure, types of damage (cold, fire et.c.) did play some role but neither me nor my players actually really found it made much difference. Why was Ice Storm a lvl 4 spell but Fireball Lvl 3 despite doing, essentially the same thing, that is to say cause damage over an area?
>>97710186You should play adventurer conquer king II.
>>97710601Not OP but what are the differences between ACKS I and ACKS II ?
>>97710601Is this a real suggestion or a meme? Can you tell me literally anything about it other than the name?
>>97710671just search it on 4plebs, you'll find one of the many, many times he or someone else has made a wall-of-text multi-post shilling itassuming you're not samefagging to have an excuse to do it again
>>97710601He has inflicted us with his presence yet again. Trollcow cannot quit.
