I can’t find a clear answer on this, so I’m asking here. In Blades in the Dark, if you have a Faction Clock and your crew sabotages that faction in some way, can the Progress Clock move backwards/untick or does it just not progress when all is said and done?
>>97738837Gameplay wise reversing clocks is difficult to orchestrate, the MC will instead have to use their judgement and alter the segments that follow in a way that follows the fiction and otherwise adheres to the game principles, prioritized contextually to the player actions and threats/factions involved.
>>97739202So if the Crew is going against Lord Reginald Finglefanger III and he has a clock that says like "Build up a militia" or something, and the players blow up his weapons storage which would set him back, would the better solution be to pause the "Build up militia" clock until a new "Rebuild Armory" is filled out?
>>97738837What is the use of shaping a progress list as a clock instead of a list? Genuine question
>>97738837It's been a while since I've read the book but I seem to remember it specifically saying that clock segments could be unticked.
>>97740842So you can imagine it's a delicious pie.
>>97740842Like the name says, it's a "clock" which is meant to be tied to the notion that investing time into something causes it to progress, as well has having things progress if steps aren't taken to stop them.It's also an okay-ish way for GMs to keep track of events in game and when they should trigger, based on what the players are doing. They're definitely overused and overhyped, but clocks are an okay tool to use sometimes.
>>97738837Yes.https://bladesinthedark.com/progress-clocksThe PCs may also directly affect NPC faction clocks, based on the missions and scores they pull off. Discuss known faction projects that they might aid or interfere with, and also consider how a PC operation might affect the NPC clocks, whether the players intended it or not.
>>97740842It's more stylish than a tally or numbers, and you can probably find props like this for a more tangible experience.
>>97740882>>97741269>>97741517Lol so there is literally no reason, i knew!!
>>97740842Making intuitevely clearer whereas it's ending or still not.
>>97740867>>97741390Thanks. That helps. I read that several times but then I'm just retarded. >>97741269>They're definitely overused and overhyped, but clocks are an okay tool to use sometimesLike a lot of things, once removed from the context of what they were made for (a heist game), they kind of lose meaning.
>>97738837>In Blades in the Dark, if you have a Faction ClockDon't.Just don't bother.BitD has a great deal of pointless bean counting that adds NOTHING of value to your game, other than forcing you to keep track of 50 different pointers for no actual gain and benefit.The sooner you realise it, the better off you will be. It might not salvage the game itself, but it's still better than trying to play with faction clocks
>>97740842Harper tried to make a copyright on progress clocks for himself and EHP. Only after filling up the form, he learned they are a thing since fucking wargaming times and are thus impossible to get legal protection and ™.That's literally it. And I wish I was joking.
>>97742267FWIW I wouldn't be tracking EVERY faction, just relevant ones, but that's actually a pretty fair assessment. Thank you.
>>97742357Look, I don't know how new to this game you are, given you are asking such basic stuff, but here is a gist of it:The only thing BitD is good for is running endless Ocean's Eleven. Specifically that one heist movie, no other one.Everything else is just posturing, pretending, broken mess of useless mechanics and false advertising. And as a GM, you are going to work yourself to the bone if you try to run this game the way it is described in the book, for ZERO gain of any kind.Also, go check out Fiasco. It's the same concept, but actually done well.>inb4 but muh lore
>>97741857If you need an additional diagram to keep track of your own notes, you might be unironically retarded
>>97738837I've certainly reversed and cancelled clocks when gming the game, and it doesn't break anything. So do whatever you want.>>97740842It's just a visual thing. The whole game has more though put into the graphical presentation than I usually see in rpgs. If it doesn't do anything for you, you might as well use a list. But I found that my players responded well to clocks.
>>97742283He would have only been able to get a copyright on that specific name and presentation. Game rules would fall under patent law if you somehow invented a brand new one. That's why nobody can control game rules, all the patents have expired and can never be renewed.
>>97742502You got it backwards, fren. A disdain for things like stylistic flourishes or built-in reminders are actual diagnostic factors for multiple learning disabilities.
>>97742388Ok, I'll bite this one. What the hell has Fiasco to do with BITD?
>>97739310The last way you gave is how I generally run it, you cause a set back that needs a new objective to deal with.
>>97742958I think they were saying Fiasco is a better game for running heists.
>>97742703>Why is EHP run by complete retardsI will take another for 500
>>97742892>Stylistic flourish to handle 3-5 points in your own notesYep, retarded.Just like the company advertising their "invention"
>>97739202>>97739310>>97742966>This is your brain on autismImagine if you were playing a game of pretend, where whatever declared can happen in a fluid manner, adjusting to the emerging situation.Oh, right, you can't imagine, for you are a literal retard who needs a diagram to keep track of this shit and then get all confused which direction the diagram should be filling up.People, you are looking at the trees and can't spot the forest.
>>97743175>>97743185Ironic.
>>97739310Really depends on what's going on. I tend not to pause clocks so much as rebuild them if necessary. Some threats are going to stay focused on their goal, some are going to adapt or that goal or outcome might not be relevant anymore. > would the better solution be to pause the "Build up militia" clock until a new "Rebuild Armory" is filled out?>Lord Reginald Finglefanger III has decided a militia is insufficient and begins forming his own private paramilitary force separate from the state Other thing to keep in mind, depending on the scale, building a militia doesn't really need a clock. Think more dramatically and leave yourself room to extrapolate. It could be more like >5 segments >small scale recruiting, beer hall meetings >training in private, amassing arms >public shows of force, propaganda wing>large scale intimidation, clashes with other militias >putsch time, attempted takeover of the government
>>97743256There is nothing ironic about you being a moron
>>9773883710 segments on all clocks and color in as many as you feel is right per action. clocks aren't meant to be hard science.
>>97742703It's actually an ongoing problem in digital games right now, for example Bandai-Namco had a patent on minigames during loading screens, and Warner Bros has a patent on the Nemesis system used in a LOTR game.
>>9774406912 is a better number. 10 is divisible by 2 and 5, 12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6.
>>97744264... shouldn't Amerifat be asleep yet?And better yet: what fucking for you need that "better divisibility" with a fucking progress clock? Do you have even the foggiest idea what those things are for? Or it's just what >>97743185 said?
>>97744069I disagree, the predictability of how many sections you get when you don't have increased or reduced effect is lost if you just vibe how many sections you get. 1,2,3,5 for fail, partial, success, crit is applied consistently for all the rules with defined clocks. The size of the task is determined by the number of sections of the clock. That's the entire point of them, to remove the ambiguity of how many actions it will take to complete something and track progress in a way that's visible to the players. That's lost if one success gives 2 sections and another gives 4 because lol.10s are also relatively slow to draw neatly, so even if you were to always have clocks of the same size I'd prefer to use 8.
>>97743550Ironic.
>>97744069Then the system serves no purpose.
>>97741758Sure. If it was a list instead of a clock and someone asked what the reason was, the answer would alsp be "there's no reason". It's just a specific way of conveying information about certain things.
>>97742980That would be astonishingly dumb, even for tg standards. Amazing, really.(Fiasco ending in a heist movie "parody" is always good, but that's it)
>>97744702NATYRT is this a blades in the dark problem? Variable clock segments is normal for pbta. They're not player facing and shouldn't be dependent on X number of actions.
>>97745216Gee man, you almost got it.First time in BitD thread?
>>97744262But now that the loading screen minigame patent has expired, it's gone forever and if anyone still used devices that took time to load, anyone would be able to make minigames during loading screens. Patent has a hard expiration date.
>>97746601Blades has defined number of wedges to fill in. Clocks are usually player facing. Never played pbta, op asked about blades. But if you're not showing the clocks to the players, and are not following a system for what you fill in, then what is the point of using clocks at all? Wouldn't you get the same result by the gm making a note that something is partially done?
>>97741758you have problems relating to other people, dont you?
>>97747644>What is the point of a measurement system? Gee anon I have no idea.
>>97741758A list will blend in with other text but the pizza shape filling with slices will be graphically distinct so it's easy to locate and read at a glance.I don't use progress clocks myself I just play a game where time is actually tracked.
>>97755560>B-bump!
>>97755560>assign sections by feel>"system"Bless
>>97740842it's a mood thing.The same way you have stats and modifiers instead of the percentile chance of success in some games even though it's the same info.
>>97757195>>97757253Thanks!
>>97757624Gee, if only there were better way to handle this shit than drawing a fucking pie chart and filling it when you feel like it.
>>97757888players would behave differently. In WHFRPG you spend resources to turn a 43% chance to 44% and it's not only the process to better things but a potentiably tangible thing by turning a crit fail into a crit success. It still has more or less the same chances to hit and to get a crit that 5e has, but you act differently based on how the data is presented.A clock works, it tells people how many actions they have before something bad happens so they plan based on that meta knowledge and the session doesn't drop into a slog or speed up to the point of missing stuff. That's the intention and succeeds at it, you can do something else and you can prefer that but there is no "better" than something that does the thing it's made to do.
>>97757948Those clocks aren't for players' eyes, you dumb moron.But at least thanks for making it clear you have no fucking clue what you are even babbling about
>>97747075Retard.
>>97758215vs>>97747644Explain.
>>97758716Neither of them, but clocks that are facing players are less than fifth of the clocks the game "should" be running, at least in terms of RAW. Big part of BitD design problem is that there is an enormous amount of shit that GM has to keep track off both time- and action-reaction wise for the setting of their own campaign (again, at least in terms of RAW). And those aren't player-facing, since players only face consequences of them filling up.Which is also why so many people itt complain about BitD's clocks, since they are making it actually a hassle to keep track of various things vs. traditional notes due to the sheer amount of them you "should" be doing.Consider just this: RAW, GM should be having three separate clocks each for main gangs of the city, same tier top gang and same tier rival gang(s). And players shouldn't know about those. Why? Consult >>97742283
>>97758915>Consider just this: RAW, GM should be having three separate clocks each for main gangs of the city, same tier top gang and same tier rival gang(s)jfc Having been part of the old playtest group for AW its been wild seeing how fucked pbta into bitd has gotten from where it started. The idea was to get away from overloading gm busywork.
>>97759171It was gonna happen because they are a ttrpg and people who do this stuff in other styles will do it in PbtA. It's an issue all around and people just ignore the ones they don't like, including the people supporting the over-complication of stuff meant to be simple. There are crunchy games based on FATE.
>>97758716Clocks are used for any action that can't be resolved with a single roll. Downtime stuff that takes time like healing and projects. It's also used to track stuff that doesn't happen all at once and to build tension during scores. One final thing it's used for is to track faction related plot points between scores.That last one is apparently what >>97758915 thinks is 4 fifths of the clocks in the game. You're only supposed to track factions that are actually involved in your game, or that you want to involve or use for background. Anything else is just GM busywork.
>>97759221>Lists all this pointless shit that actually has no real reason to keep track of>"Anything ELSE is just GM busywork"Holy fuck mate, show us on the doll where they've touched you with clocks.
>>97759221I'm mostly just confused about if they're actually player facing or not. That part is the furthest from how I use them so its interesting. >>97759186>There are crunchy games based on FATE.Also perversely curious about this.
>>97759171>>97759186If it's any consolidation, I'm Polish and I know people who turned 4 pages-long ruleset (so it neatly fit into 2 sheets of paper) of a basic, 2d6 entry-level game into 500-pages long simulationist clusterfuck with more bleeding subrules than the original game's entire word-count.People are just weird like that. And I've long stopped trying to understand the source of it.
>>97759259Do you also roll initiative for everyone who are not in the same dungeon as you players when you run D&D anon? It's equally retarded.
>>97759260some are player facing, most are meant to make things easier for the GM. They don't when the GM can just keep a logical narrative line in their head, but some people need an analogue UI to keep track of shit.On the other point, I don't know, but UVG has nebulous skills like Fate but is a D&D retroclone in other aspects. That's the closest I can think of right now.
>>97759260I usually run most of them player facing. Including faction clocks for factions that they interact with.If the topic of the clock is a major spoiler in itself I might relabel it so "major plot point, 8 section clock" becomes "faction x advances their plan, 8 section clock", but if the players have a clue what the faction is doing I can just label it with something revealing. I really don't see what is the point of using clocks in secret, that just feels like note keeping with extra steps.
>>97759305Except the the difference is that BitD's rulebook tells you to do so.
>>97759289There's a polish joke in here somewhere for sure. >People are just weird like that. And I've long stopped trying to understand the source of it.Fair. Its a curiosity that gets me sometimes though.
>>97759376>>97759314The player facing side is very different than how I use them, which could be described as notekeeping with extra steps or analog UI for sure. Putting events and actions together in an easy at a glance project management outline works well for me. I have actively considered running UVG with some sort of PBTA, seems easier than whateverthefuck SEACAT is suppose to be doing. Thanks for responding, always neat to learn how other people play games. Makes sense if you really want to lean into genre fiction collaboration of the story of main characters in the fiction. I'm more using them to keep track of factions and in world events that work better when they're not directly telegraphed to the players, who aren't running the main characters of a story, more exploration in a world rolling as it does.
>>97759221>One final thing it's used for is to track faction related plot points between scores.>You're only supposed to track factions that are actually involved in your gameExcept you need separate clock for each of them for it to work.The game outright tells you you should have clocks on main gangs and tier-leader gang for respecitvely city- and district plothooks, while rival gang(s) for direct threat to the party.And you can't have just one clock for that shit.So yeah: shitload of busy work that exists for the sake of itself, as far as RAW is concerned
>>97759871I like what SEAcat implies, but then I check another sourcebook and it has a different character sheet. I want a definite thing to dedicate a day to understand. I ended up doing a Panic Engine thingie to solve it with a system I enjoy.
>>97759680I must have missed that, do cite the page if you have it handy.>>97759949I've run two long campaigns my way, so I know it works. Rolling for all the factions that the players are not and will not interact with seems less than ideal.>>97759871Do whatever works, the point of the clocks (as opposed to a different presentation of the same information) is to be a graphical communication tool Wether that is to your future self, or to your players. I found it worked well with a broad group of player types.
>>97758915Why do you keep saying RAW, as if there's any other way to discuss a game's rules? You don't have to tell us you're referring to the rules when discussing the rules. We know.
