Now that the dusk has settled, has any TTRPG or wargame ever done orcs better than Tolkien?
>>97758551It's hard to overcome "spiteful mockeries of God's children made by Satan" that are still themselves children of God with souls as a concept.
>>97758551Hear me out...
>>97758551Consider dying, please and thank you.
>>97758596Yes?
>>97758573So even though Tolkien never really gave us orcs as characters, apart from a few yobbish minor appearances, I think this is really good and works very well for orcs as PCs in RPGs. One of Tolkiens contemplated alternate origins was that orcs sort of spontaneously arose from mass graves and piles of the dead in battlefields.IIRC he found that too horrible but I think it works really well for orcs as enemies. It's still a literalisation of sinful violence, but there's a less personal dimension for character growth. And honestly it's metal as fuck. I think there was a game that ran with this as an orc origin, maybe Burning Wheel.
GREEN IS BEST.
>>97758551... Tolkien did a TTRPG?
>>97758573>>97758650I really want to see a story where Orcs start as the whole spawn of Satan thing but, as a natural consequence of being sapient creatures with capacity for reason and growth, they gradually begin to slip their creator's chains and become a proper civilization.
>>97758715Unfortunately most people are boring and Warcraft-pilled now and just play orcs as alternate humans without reckoning with that legacy of sin and pain. Or you get that like essentially racist WotC art where the Orc family are just Mexicans lmao.
Warhammer Orks are so popular they surpassed Tolkien's. Tolkien orcs were barely thought out grey sludge people, the classic green orc barbarian is a warhammer thing and it became the gold standard
>>97758715That's kinda a thing in lord of the rings. In unfinished tales we know free orcs are more fearsome than the orcs sauron controlled, Gundabad was the capital of a massive orc-kingdom with ample trade routes with dwarves and men whom attacked the lonely mountain for revenge of a prior king the dwarves of Durin's house slew, and they're very ingenious with Tolkien attributing many of the machines of war he saw in WW1 to their designs. Meaning that, like Hobbits, they'd still be around today. It's not directly in your face, but when orcs are left to their own devices they're in a way stronger.
>>97758551Every now and then, I consider looking into what it would cost to commission Mossa to do reference art for my campaigns. Probably prohibitively high.
>>97758551Mossacannibalis is the example that has struck me the hardest personally on the whole "separate the art from the artist" thing. Knowing his taste for little children and eroguro I've never been able to look at his work the same way. You can see the latent depravation even in his most sfw nothingburger paintings, it's like even the very colours of the paintings all being so unnaturally pale and smeary-looking are meant to resemble the appearance of corpses and death or something, it all looks so cold and lifeless.But I'll be damned if he doesn't make some of the best monsters and gore art I've seen in my life. It's precisely because he gets off to it that he knows exactly how to best depict terrifying inhuman beasts and their merciless violence on weak defenseless creatures. He is very fucked up in the head but that's exactly what makes him such a fantastic artist.I'd never had this much trouble separating the art from the author before Mossa. He is truly great but he fucking disgusts me.
>>97758573fpbpStill, one can use orcs (or an orc substitute) like people have been doing since LotR, but it's just impossible to surpass that>>97758938he's a champion of Chaos. Do not think too much of it, anon, and try to get as much joy as you can from his art, but nothing more
>>97758938You're making hims sound pretty awesome, in a gothic novel way
The word "Orc" comes from the Old English word orcneas, which appears exactly once in the poem Beowulf. It’s usually translated as "corpse-spirits" or "hell-devils." Tolkien took that one obscure word and built an entire culture around it.The name likely shares roots with Orcus, a Roman god of the underworld and a punisher of perjurers. Over time, "Orcus" evolved into the Italian orco and the French ogre.If you were to go back to the Middle Ages and describe an Orc to a peasant, they wouldn't know the word, but they would say, "Oh, you mean an Ogre." Before Tolkien standardized the "Orc," folklore was full of "Wild Men" and man-eating giants that filled that same narrative niche: brutish, violent, and living on the fringes of civilization. Tolkien essentially took the vibe of an Ogre and the name of a Beowulf demon to create the modern Orc.
>>97759145I wouldn't call them essentialy the same vibe, at least the LOTR ones (who are intelligent, bitchy, social in a nasty way and clearly to an extent a commentary of what modern war would like men to become).
>>97759223Ummm yalll yall ytall clap. Isn't youz a paedo if ytou a say a finna a mossa a lust provoking algo o? Be better,
>>97759242we speak english here, sir.
>>97758551I think the third one has the on the left has the best teeth. She looks like a healthy one. The other ones look a bit sickly or have bad teeth.
>>97759256Uh raycism is against the rules sar.
>>97758551Sex with the first oneMake the second one my sex maidMarry the third one
>>97759274You need to be a better man. Marry all three or else.
>>97758938yeah he's really great mechanically, but it's on of the few examples where you can describe someones work as evil. Not that it matters much in a place like this. As the other anon pointed out, it is an actually good example on how chaos works.personally I have some of his neutral work saved as reference for his color work and expressions, but I generally stay away from his stuff. If he would suddenly stop drawing for some reason or another, nothing of value would be lost.
>>97758551The ones that don't attract sloppacanibals
>>97759145So if you're actually creative you don't use/reimplement orcs, but you follow this same process to make your own thing. Except everyone wants to see orcs in something because of the legacy of Tolkien's ceation.
>>97758619We must end them all, before they whelp. The danger is too great.
>>97758938I find it hard to distinguish Mossa's personal depravity from his instincts as a controversialist desu. I'm not sure how you could do that unless you knew him personally. No matter how awful personally I would still draw a line between a writer/artist of awful works and a writer/artist who indulges in awful behaviours, for example Marion Bradley. The latter is always worse.>>97759300>nothing of value would be lostI think this thread is worse if we just relitigate Mossa ITT but you must realise your own post contradicts your closing statement. He's a good artist. The extent to which everyone engages with his art is their own personal thing.
>>97759281Polygamy is sinful
>>97759204The LotR orcs have kind of the hobbit thing but even more so where they're very much lower class, even the commanders. The hobbits do have some squires and gentry but they have fewer class divisons and no real kinds or high aristocrats like the other LotR peoples Orcs are cunning but petty and not educated or clever, and that's probably by reason of being denied the opportunity. Which makes >>97758761 a little more interesting, but I don't know anything about Unfinished Tales.
>>97759353>no real kinds or high aristocrats like the other LotR peoplesBullshit, a lot of good people in LOTR had no aristocracy. Hell, you could make the point that snobby heriditary aristocracy in Tolkien tends to end up pretty badly (Gondor, Numenor, the fucking Noldor as a whole).I mean, he WAS a non-violent anarchist as far as social structures went.
>>97758551uruk-hai were built for BRC (big Rohan cock)
>>97758551I have mossacannibalism fatigue
>>97758551ORC STAIN Not a ttrpg or wargame but fuck it.
>>97758551I have mossacannibalism deficiency
>>97758551Tolkien never did orcs in any TTRPG or wargame.
I must be feeling contrarian tonight>>97759461Isn't every member of the fellowship a noble (save the hobbits)? I know there are a few corrupt aristocrats and a couple enlighented plebes but I'd say overall good bloodlines and education make the heroes of ME. Haven't read them in a decade though, so I'll admit maybe there are more examples I'm forgetting.Shit, wasn't the guy that killed Smaug in The Hobbit related to the last ruler of Bardstown... Wait that's in Kentucky, whatever the name of the docks-city at the bottom of Thorin's family's spot.I'm just saying from a casual reader's point of view, I agree with that other anon>>97759330I think that's the modern teaching, separating the art from the artist, but there's something in Mossa's art that really does just exude ugliness and contempt. I'd never seen the OP pic before, and didn't know it was by him but I didn't connect to it or think about it. And while he would certainly be worse if he really was killing and eating people I think there's some truth to him making "corrupted" or even "corrupting" art. And while his mechanical skill is commendable, I wouldn't say that makes him a good artist. We probably just have different definitions of what makes art good.I guess disgust is an emotion, so his evoking of that makes him an artist. But I'd use George Orwell as an example of a good artist evoking negative emotion. There's something deeper there than I get with mossa art, which only hits at a surface level.
>>97758551I'm ripping off Tolkien orcs for my setting but calling them something different because everyone thinks they're just tusked green retards now.
>>97758738>Unfortunately most people are boring and Warcraft-pilled now and just play orcs as alternate humans without reckoning with that legacy of sin and pain.Remember that the Horde did nothing wrong, they were never under demonic control, they were just peaceful refugees fleeing an Orange Man Bad allegory, and it was the racist bigoted chuds of Azeroth who started the war.
>>97759461>Bullshit, a lot of good people in LOTR had no aristocracy.Gondor and Rohan were monarchies. The dwarves had kings. Galadriel was a queen. I don't know what Elrond's official title was but he was undeniably the big guy in charge of Rivendell. The hobbits only barely count as a democracy since they have essentially the barest minimum of centralized government and are governed more by clans and families, which function like aristocracy-lite.>Hell, you could make the point that snobby heriditary aristocracy in Tolkien tends to end up pretty badly (Gondor, Numenor, the fucking Noldor as a whole).The rightful heir to the throne returning is what saved Gondor from destruction and led it into a new golden age. Tolkien's writing was a lot of things, a commentary on government and aristocracy is not one of those things. Kingdom's collapse and dynasties end because men (and elves, and dwarfs) are fallible, and the world of old is slowly turning into the world we know, as the great works and achievements of the ancients are forgotten and pass out of memory, and the wonders of Middle Earth fade into the mundane world we know today.>>97760929>Isn't every member of the fellowship a noble (save the hobbits)?Yes and even of the hobbits, Pippen and Merry are heirs to two of the largest, richest, and most respected families in the Shire, and the Baggins are likewise an old and well respected name and Frodo himself was independently wealthy. Only Sam was truly a commoner, his father being a simple gardener.
>>97759989Shame it will never be finished
>>97758551I don't care that they're hot, they're orcs and deserve to die.
>>97762529Given the way Tolkien Orcs were made, you could (hypothetically) return them to their unbroken form by being nice to them.
>>97758551where can i find the uncensored pic?
>>97762680give em a thorough rinse and pork the Morgoth out of them, you say?
>>97762889More like a through rinse and let them tend sheep and chop wood and grow moss in the pastoral deep woods for six generations.After that you can go and meet a former Orc girl and hold hands, after stumbling into her well kept garden in the deep woods.
>>97762958PiV sounds like a higher bandwidth version of that
>>97762768https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/10517330?q=mossacannibalis+
>>97763051thank you kind sir
>>97758551Tolkien Orcs are just low-Int D&D Drow, change my mind.
>>97758551I've only ever seen one GM do orcs and goblins justice, they had a campaign prepared around their breeding factory. Orcs and goblins capture elves and they force them to get gangbanged in all their holes to produce apex predators. The best breeders became their prized mares.
>>97762958unironically cool adventure hook, with the party finding an isolated community of peaceful orcs and having to decide what to do about it>>97763299Well Tolkien orcs do not have a matriarchal society, for starters, and drow are almost exclusive underground dwellers while orcs can tolerate dim light conditions, and can march in the sunlight under duressThe part about being slaves to a seductive super demon is basically true, thostill I'm not an expert on drow so you might be right after all>>97758938>even the very colours of the paintings all being so unnaturally pale and smeary-looking are meant to resemble the appearance of corpses and death or something, it all looks so cold and lifelessit looks strange, it's a rough style but still effective and has a strong identity,even his color palette has identity. His technique is really good but the themes are questionable most of the time; he's got some really good historical stuff but still nsfw
>>97760929Not really, save for Boromir, Legolas and Aragorn. See below.>>97761330>Gondor and Rohan were monarchies.You're conflating monarchy with "aristocratic class" (which is what I was talking about, maybe not too clearly).Basically excluding Gondor you have monarchs who are.... well, not exactly directly above the population, there are some "greater" families of some more money and (soft) power, but no real aristocracy to speak of. In some cases, not even that (new Laketown selected its own king who was a nobody for his great deed - no one cared for Bard's ancestors before).Even in Gondor it doesn't seem to me that there is a "real" aristocracy. Imrahil is the only guy which I remember having a clearly stated hereditary rule on some place, the others were generically "leaders".My strong impression is that Tolkien had a thing for monarchies in which the king isn't really above the population, an expression of a class of rich guys, and in any case the valour of the man in charge (or even women) is definitely more personal than anything else, while yes, a traditional dinasty tends to be a good idea if it's not too "stuck high up" like Gondor or Numenor ended with.Examples: Galadriel herself (vs the quite bad score of her kind in the Ancient days), Aragorn (vs the bullshit both kings and regents ended up with), the better Longbeards kings.(also fuck no, the Shire was almost a book example of an anarchical "rule of the old", no democracy at all)
>>97758551Goddamn I hate what cool concepts this retard is capable of and squanders it all on cheap coombait
>>97758596Well now you know how Sauron and Saruman got human men to sire half-orcs.
>>97763299Drow cannot match orc ingenuity. Unfortunately for the orcs, they're manlets ranging from Hobbit to Dwarf size and fight 7 feet tall super humans.
>>97764977>also fuck no, the Shire was almost a book example of an anarchical "rule of the old", no democracy at all>no democracy They LITERALLY ELECT their Mayor, who runs the government of the Shire! Sam got elected Mayor 7 times. What the fuck kind of fuckery is this that you would shit on Sam that way you dumb illiterate cunt?
>>97758551>>97758659>pedo artist
>>97765778BasedIt shouldn't be illegal anyway. If The president does it then it should be legal by definition.
>>97766235But then fraud, bribery, perjury, racketeering, witness tampering, forcible rape, murder, and treason would also have to be legal. I'm not sure the president is a particularly suitable moral guide, anon.
>>97758938Ironic because the way he draws characters always feels so alive to me.
>>97765761The mayor is a figurehead.
>>97764778>orcs can tolerate dim light conditions, and can march in the sunlight under duress"Duress" meaning "under immediate threat of death". Orcs are natural underground dwellers, and thrive miles beneath the earth in cities like Gundabad, Moria, and Goblin Town. Elsewhere they live in shallow caves, and are nocturnal.
>>97767606They don't like being in the hot sun, neither do I. Them being morlocks is a retcon from RoP.
>>97764977I'm the casual-reader-anonYou seem to have forgotten Gimli, son of Gloin, one of the guys that reinstated the Lonely Mt with Oak'n'Shield. Seems like a highborn to me, unless Gloin fucked off after the 5 armies fight to be poor somewhere. I assumed he sat on a big pile of money with his battle bros.Also Gandalf, who's directly related to God. Or at least I think so, couldn't make it through the Simarilion but I'm pretty sure he's an angelI get you don't want it to be about royalty but sometimes you're just wrong man. It's fine, its 4chan the score disappears once this shit hits page 11
We do know some things about the governance of the various kingdoms. Gondor has the Prince of Dol Amroth, and later on the Prince of Ithilien. Even before the extinction of the royal line the stewardship was a hereditary office of the House of Hurin.The Shire itself also began its life as a fiefdom of Arthedain, created to repopulate the area, aside from the mayor there also was the Thain, who came from the Took line, while the Brandybucks served as Masters of Buckland.Rohan is divided along the lines of the Marks, with its Marshals responsible for mustering the armies.
>>97767557The mayor is a figurehead? What are you trying to say? That the mayor is just a powerless stand-in doing the bidding of rich powerful hobbit families? That those hobbit families abduct young hobbit girls to drink their blood and abuse their supple bodies? That there’s a secret riding in the shire that these hobbit girls are taken to? That Gondor knows about that? That there’s a hobbit socialite connecting all these groups and allegedly working for Gondorian intelligence called Mr Geoffrey Stepshine? Is that what you’re saying?
>>97768301>That the mayor is just a powerless stand-in doing the bidding of rich powerful hobbit families? That those hobbit families abduct young hobbit girls to drink their blood and abuse their supple bodies?ABSOLUTELY BASEDGod, I want this to be true so much.
>>97758551How did this topic impact your last ttrpg session?
>>97758938>>97759300>>97760929You are huge queers who shouldn't have internet access
>>97768761>redditfaggibalis defender calling others queers
>>97768814>redditfaggibalis defenderI know "reddit" doesn't mean anything because reddit literally banned his art, so you'll be more comfortable there if even a specific way of coloring makes you feel icky and disturbed
>>97758650That concept seems like a better fit for demons
>>97768761They're some of the most thoughtful and coherent posts this board has had in ages. It's you who should spend some time doing things that aren't online for a while, bub
>>97758715You might not believe it but that's kinda the origin of warcraft orcs, tho technically they were like existing species that got enslaved by demons and in the campaigns you free them ect.
>>97758551The Dark Eye put orcs somewhere between neanderthals and gorilla-men, and it works pretty well.
>>97758715That's the usual story, it's generic at this point.
>>97765778>crying ledditor
>>97758551>white hands on breasts/vagina I'd plunge my sword into them.
The Orcs represents the armies of Roman Empire. "Gondor calls for aid" was when the Cimbri went to war against Rome for annexing Noricum and threatening to eradicate the Numidians, Iberians and Moroccans/Mauretanians whom shared EEF farmer heritage (Hobbit) plus megalithic tomb culture (Dunedain) with coastal europe.
>>97767931Actually Gimli is the most egregious example of what I am trying to say.Gloin (not royal line) was a higher born Longbeard. While he DID strike gold with Erebor, he was... poorer than Bilbo? Didn't even have a fucking servant? Granted, these dwarves were not doing so good at the time, but if THAT is the usual state of aristocracy it seems to me at most we're talking smalltime gentry with no power. This is what I mean by the monarch's line seemingly being not really that better off than his people, AND nobles being pretty much non-existant as a class.Unless shit's not so cash, like in Numenor. Gimli was the only guy in the Fellowship with armor, but that doesn't cry to me aristocrat. And I would assume the Erebor dwarves were the richest people in Middle Earth.>>97768301Oh no, the infamous Sandyman Files!
>>97765448I think it was the other way around mate.>Pic unrelated
>>97758551Tolkien's take was very good but also particular to Tolkien, and orcs are almost never emulated in that respect, only in their role within the setting as brutish adversaries.In my own setting Orcs are an ancient now-extinct rival hominid that the humans and elves exterminated together, which is why they still eons later have a racial alliance. Humans have all forgotten that this even happened outside of dim racial memory and legend, but the Elves remember it very clearly and take humanity's side in every conflict with other species, because they've already committed one genocide together.
>>97776091>thoughtful and coherentIt's pear clutching and hand wringing, and I'm someone who has done the same shit in the past too, being able to "tell" what goes on in an artist's mind
>>97785200Used to jerk off to this bitch a lot
>>97758551No, tolkien did it best, everyone else did it worse.>>97758938eh... I've never seen his actual guro art but I instantly realized he's a porn artist first and foremost just by looking at how he draws orks.He draws orks like how a racist would draw a caricature of a foreigner.
>>97758938>the whole "separate the art from the artist" thingfor me it's Meru (diaper porn), ShindoL (177013), and Madoguchi Moto (the blowtorch flambé)
>>97764977>You're conflating monarchy with "aristocratic class" A monarchy is an aristocratic class.
>>97788884nta, but to be precise monarchy is a system of government that usually includes royalty, which is an upper aristocratic class
What dust?
>>97765778good
>>97758551Tharks are definitely the coolest orc like race. They live in the ruins of dead cities and fight each other over resources. They also have four arms and are giant.
>>97758744That's literally not true Tharks are greenThe mutant army in heavy metal were green There's a green troll on boris valljelo's 1971 cover for the broken sword You can find countless examples of green orcs before Warhammer, there's no universe where green barbarian monsters are a Warhammer thing.
>>97789788Wow. Thanks for reiterating what i just said.
>>97792676yw
>>97764977>Even in Gondor it doesn't seem to me that there is a "real" aristocracy. Imrahil is the only guy which I remember having a clearly stated hereditary rule on some place, the others were generically "leaders".You need to remember better before getting involved in the discussion.Gondor very clearly has a monarchy, and Denethor acts as the steward for that monarchy.Forlong the Fat is Lord of Lossarnach - other Lords include Golasgil, Hirluin the Fair, Duinhir the TallFaramir was eventually made Prince of Ithilien.
>>97758803There are so many Stable Diffusion LoRAs for Mossa's art you could just generate it yourself by following the short AI guides on /g/
>>97765778>>97766235This is what happens when you dilute the meaning of words by calling a lolicon artist a pedo.You get people calling pedophilia based. Thank you for contributing to the ruination of language
>>97758715That's DnD 5E
>>97796319You'd get that anyway, from the same constant adolescent edginess one-upmanship that also provides a good bit of the leeching out of meaning from the language. Of course, it's also most likely what's making you stand up for lolicon artists too...
>>97766235>If The president does it then it should be legal by definition.Swear to god 4chan, if this is how I find out something horrible went down..
>>97796464did you legit miss the whole epstein thing
>>97796530No no like something with actual substance.
>>97758551Mother of God carpet bomb Isengard
>>97788884A monarch is defenitionally an aristocrat, which usually implies but is not totally inseparable from the existence of a broader aristocratic class. There does not appear to be an intermediary noble class in Rohan, for example, there's just the King, and then the Rohirrim in general. Contrast with Medieval England where you had Serfs, then Franklins, Yoemen, then an extensive hierarchy of nobility with very strict delineations of rank and privilege. This is really sort of absent in Tolkien, the hierarchies are compressed in such a sense, with the highest ranks interacting directly with the lowest.
>>97796609>something with actual substance.
>>97758551I prefer my pig orcs. The tolkien ones are hard to differentiate from goblins. Has that "it's just a goblin with a different name" shit stink that novice DMs have.
>>97798825Tolkien orcs and his goblins are basically the same thing, it's other fantasy that came after him that tried to differentiate the two.
Orcs should be domesticated by BHC.
>>97796361Keep crying; it might actually make you feel a little bit better.
Just because artist draws youths of the species doesn't mean audience gotta see anything weird behind it. If you do, that's your own projection.
>>97811025Are these kig-yar?
>>9781133640k kroot>>97810851>>97811025god damnit this fucker cranks great texture work like it's nothing
>>97758596You should have the limbs hewn from your body, and then be thrown into a bottomless pit of quicksand.
>>97796319I think the Epstein and Diddy stuff numbing and desensitizing people probably contributed more to that
