Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3eVsDungeons and Dragons 4e.Both are the black sheep of their respective series. When viewed in their totality, which is better and why?
>>97808124>Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3eboardgame wihtout a board>Dungeons and Dragons 4e.Online MMORPG wihtout being online.Neither, althought I prefer WFRP over D&D
>>97808124Tough call. 4e was definitely better as a core product (three main books vs big box of WH). WH probably wins in the end because it really got pretty damn deep with player options, the party being its own character, lasting damage, diseases, insanity, chaos mutations, magic miscast effects, and what not being a huge pain the ass to shake making a long campaign having your characters really be fucked up and it causing mechanical effects. That stuff kind of drives home the aspect of you scraping by in a shit world instead of becoming some kind of big heroes.Both 100% deserve the shit they get though. 4e focused on combat so hard and still made it a fucking slog and WH had an expensive asking price, slow release schedule, and core WH concepts spread out across multiple splats instead of being in the core box.
>>97808124>Dungeons and Dragons 4eIt's actually a really good OSR-adjacent game if you use MM3 (or the math conversion), and just let players do cool shit with the combat AEDU maneuvers even if the system says you can't.It sucks at being DnD, like WFRP3e sucks at being WFRP, but unlike 3e, it doesn't suck as a game.
>>97808201WHFRP 3e is probably the best overall WH fantasy RPG. It did character and party growth better than any other edition. I completely understand people not liking it though.4e being considered OSR adjacent after you have to houserule shit and rework the math is MASSIVE ding against it. How much do you have to alter something before it's better to just play something else? Honestly, if you don't mind altering shit, it's almost always better to just learn and use a generic system because those are made to be tweaked right out the gate and most of them are better than stuff geared to one specific type of game anyway.
Better at what?
>>97808398The MM3 math was the new official standard. It's not houseruling, it was errata.
WFRP 3rd ed atleast had a good system, that went on being further developed into the Star Wars RPGs and as the Genesys. D&D 4th ed was a dead-end shitshow
>>97808124If I recall correctly, whfp more or less required more of the proprietary dice than came with the core game (it had the bare minimum, so like having a single 7 dice set for your entire table.) So, that's pretty fucking egregious.
>>97808509They took more from 4e than people are willing to admit, they just changed the language. I think at least half of the butthurt over 4e was presentation and not content.
>>97808124The problem with WFRP is that it's attached to a shit setting, one so shit it died, and may be dying again.
>>97808513Oh yeah, FFG shit the bed incredibly hard in how they handled the game in multiple aspects. The final state, as in the totality of the game with all expansions, dice, etc? Damn good. It absolutely deserved to fail for how poorly they handled it though.>>97808509Yeah, SW is solid, Genesys is even better. WH was definitely kind of a prototype of the system. In some ways it was better in a lot of ways it was worse.>>97808516Man, they didn't really take anything from 4e. 5e was a more simplified version of 3e and pretty much had nothing to do with 4e. I'm not shitting on 4e because it still worked pretty well as a game if you focused on the old school meat grinder dungeon delving aspect of D&D. Ironically, WH 3e was called a board game pretending to be an RPG but 4e's modified rules for the adventure board games was pretty stellar. Gamma World was probably the best use of the 4e ruleset for RPG purposes though, but nobody fucking played it.
>>97808561Fair. WH has some fun stuff but it doesn't lean hard enough into dark nor heroic nor power fantasy and comes off as kind of asshole fantasy instead.For what is worth Shadow of the Demon Lord is better at delivering what I wanted out of WH in terms of vibes.
>>97808586Short rest/long rest based powers just encounters and dailies under another name. Same with spending hit dice and healing surges. A lot of powers were folded into class features. All races basically being two flat ability score bonuses. Proficiency itself is obviously taken from just adding your level to skills you're trained in. The hard coded tiers are also straight from 4e, although they are much softer in 5e than they are in 4.There is an obvious straight line from 4e to 5e. "They didn't take anything from 4e, it's just simplified 3e," is pure copium.
>>97808561Nah, you just have shit fuckin' taste, warhammer is dope an an rpg setting, and the dog has always had players. The wargame died because gw are retards who don't know how to write wargame rules, the setting has nothing to do with that. And 99 times out of a hundred, people who complain about the old world don't even know anything about it beyond the idea that "it's 40k but fantasy."
>>97808623Nope. That's 3e stuff.
>>97808678Oh, you're retarded. Sorry, I'll leave you alone little guy, I don't want to hurt a little retarded guy's feelings.
>>97808136>4e is le mmoretarded take>>97808201even when the game was just PHB1 i was still using lightning lasso out of combat. >>97808398generic systems dont have the depth of combat 4e offers. >>97808475true. >>978085094e is not a dead end it is still inspiring new games today>>97808586how do you know about gamma world but not see 4e's influence on 5e? >>97808599sotdl is made to be a product that sells splatbooks, not to be a good game. >>97808678wrong
>>97808623Needing a rest to replenish it points, rage charges, divinity channeling, etc was in 3e and before You needed to be proficient in a skill to get your ability modifier in it (or even use it in a lot of cases) in 3e.The tier mechanic was just folding in prestige classes from 3e instead of you questing for them.The hit die for healing for short rests was to promote the core idea of a typical day having six encounters. They did pull that from 4e, I will give you that.
>>97809045Should be ki points not "it points". Fuggin phone posting.
>>97808698SotDL mogs every edition of D&D and WHFRP.
>>97809051Why? because you bought in lil zoom zoom? >every editionhell no
>>97809063>Zoom zoomI'm pushing 50.
>>97809045short rest long rest was not a codified thing in 3e , like cordellion action economy it was something that started off experimental, was found to be very functional and was implimented more over time. 4e simplified the chasis to a more universal mechanic and 5e took this. Individual skill ranks were a thing in 3e ( I loved dipping one point in nearly every skill ) for the profiecency bonus, the way 4e simplified skills was reused in 5e. You are citing smart stuff but your core premise is incorrect. what was original to 5e was the way concentration spells work ( which is awful, there was good design space here that was axed) , bounded accuracy ( good mechanic ) and the new version of advantage/disadvantage ( which is also from 4e though not the 2d20 version ) . Maybe spell scaling too - i hate this mechanic just because I play so many Psions in 3.pf that is just my personal bias 4e was balanced around 4 encounters a day, not 6. Idk what the fuck they were thinking balancing 5e around 6 encounters a day. also i think paragon paths and epic destines are retarded and atrocious , 3e prcs are much more soulful.
>>9780907250 dicks down your throat if you are using brocolli headed lingo like mogs . You did not answer why SOTDL is good so I am assuming its just beacuse you bought in
>>97809082>You didn't say why SotDL is goodYou didn't ask.Character advancement after every adventure makes quick campaigns.Large build varietyFast character creationFast and Slow initiative structureBane and boon modifier systemFlat skill checksDamage tied to character instead of gearLethal from beginning to endCore Rulebook is all you need for a complete gameEncounters are quickPlayers decide turn orderMagic is strong but pure melee is the better damage dealer
>>97809152I did ask. >large build variety, runs well on core onlythis is a contradiction>boons and banesthis is advantage 3.0 - it is superior to 4e and 5e versions of advantage>encounters are quickthis often sacrifices depth. piloting a stodl character, like lancer, is rather linear>magic vs meleethis is true in 4e and 3.5 too, not system specific. >magic is strongi don't find this to be true
>>97808398>WHFRP 3e is probably the bestAt nothing, party growth is pbta-adjacent feel good idiocy.>OSR adjacent after you have to houserule shitOSR play is largely houseruling instead of consulting the book. Shit, what I suggest is barely even houseruling, it's just fringe RAW opposed to RAI, if Fire Shroud creates fire then it makes less sense to follow the rules and not let it burn a house down.>and rework the mathOnly if you don't have MM3, you can use vanilla math if you do.> How much do you have to alter something before it's better to just play something else?Enough that you have to significantly create new statblocks for monsters, players and situations, which you don't have to do for 4e if you use the official MM3.>>97808698>i was still using lightning lasso out of combat.And I was letting players use Icy Terrain to freeze makeshift bridges over lakes (with some risk depending on their rolls). It all makes for fun gameplay if you don't have a stick up your butt.
Never saw the appeal in fantasy roleplay, it seems kinda dogshit the few times I got coaxed into playing. DnD 4e at least has its moments.
>>97810854freeform/DM fiat out of combat is much more fun and I quite like that balance both in early 4e and in lancer. its a shame that leftists, literalists and transenablers decided out of combat needs more rules in both games.
>>97808124>4e>Black sheepMore like a meme about being so.WH 3e is, however, significantly better game, on behalf of trying something truly different (rather than half-assing miniscule changes) for a new edition of the game and being a fully functional game that works right off the box
>>97810863The benefit in WFRP's earlier editions is largely that it removes a lot of weight from the GMs side. If your GM has a good grasp on realism (or thinks he does), he can easily understand DCs as percentages, a lot of rolls become easier to calculate.The mudcore high-lethality type of play kinda sucks though, at least in comparison to old dnd, since, due to the career system and book formatting, the characters kinda take a lot of time to create, and due to FP, they take longer to die while still dying kinda easily. If you run a meat grinder in old dnd a lot of characters will die quickly, and whoever survives will be stronger by the end; if you do the same in, say, WFRP 2e, more characters may come out alive, but they'll be a bit weaker than before, because chances are each will have burned FP to survive and have been maimed, while not advancing to the next career path to spend XP on the stats that matter for them.>>97810892Look at who you're talking about, these people need out of combat rules because they don't know how normal human relationships work without delving into combative stances. Each person usually prefers the rules heavy part of a game to focus on what they don't do on a daily basis, which for normal people means rules-heavy magic and combat against monsters. These people spend the day inside dungeons filled with the most abhorrent monsters, sneaking around, afraid to wake higher HD offenderelllas, they don't need to combat monsters in their lives, they need rules-heavy SoL because their lives aren't normal.
>>97810854>t. still playing 3.X, never actually tried anything elseAsk me how I know
>>97810929Nta, but ask me, too, how I know you never in your life played WFRP, any fucking edition
>>97810892Careful with that bait, or you gonna choke on it
>>97810934>>97810939Hahahahaha, I played 3.5 exactly twice in my life, two different sessions with two different DMs, both experienced. The system sucks. My systems of choice are WFRP 2e for new players and FFd6 for experienced players.
>>97810950ffd6 is pretty shitty compared to FF pathfinder>>97810946not bait
>>97811021>FF pathfinderI haven't looked much into it, but it looks heavilly inspired by FF14, which I never played and don't care to, so I always go back to d6. It is hilariously unbalanced, but any game can be, and my player group who likes FF doesn't care.These people feel baited by anything, really, regardless of it being bait or not.
>>97811061FF pathfinder has taken stuff from 14 but it predates that game by like 10 or 15 years, it has been updated for a looooooong time. Gunblade for example was a prestige class in ffd20 before it was a base class being inspired by FF14 hence why it supports goofy shit like a pistol with two katannas strapped to it like the advent children movie. There is some memey stuff but it has fully fleshed out time mage, blue mage, a fucking magitek armor pilot class, its alot
>>97811430Maybe I should check it then. I'm not usually partial to d20 stuff outside of 4e, but>it supports goofy shit like a pistol with two katannas strapped to it like the advent children movieshit like this ought to get a pass. Is it currently based on PF 1e or 2e? I heard good things about 2e poaching stuff from dnd 4e here and there.
I have been running and playing 4e since 2008. I ran a session of 4e last week and will be doing so again soon.One thing I really like about 4e is the ability to challenge tactically savvy players with enemy group synergies.For example, let us consider an encounter against a group of xivort darters (level 1 artilleries) who have tamed a bunch of thornskin frogs (level 1 brutes) and wolf packmates (level 1 minion skirmishers).http://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster5029http://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster4879http://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster4614The xivort darters can daze PCs, which is annoying enough. However, the thornskin frogs can move in to deal heavy damage and knock PCs prone. Standing from prone takes a move action, and a dazed creature can take only one action on their turn, so a dazed PC who wants to use a standard action will have to settle for staying prone. Unfortunately, the wolf packmates can then move in to deal extra damage to the prone PCs. Simple but nasty enemy synergy.How about a positioning challenge for PCs of a slightly higher level? Let us say a couple of centurions of the Iron Circle (level 6 soldiers) have rounded up several dwarf warriors (level 1 minion artilleries) and a couple of extremist wilden ancients (level 4 artilleries [leader]) to stir up trouble.http://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster6025http://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster115713http://iws.mx/dnd/?view=monster5027The Iron Circle centurions are highly accurate against PCs with no other adjacent PCs... but if the PCs cluster up, then they might just be smacked by nasty area attacks from the wilden ancients, who can also buff the centurions. Worse, the dwarf warriors are many in number, and any PC not in cover is liable to be pincushioned by the extra damage from the crossbow attacks.I like how 4e is a 30-level game, yet even lower-level encounters can have a surprising amount of tactical depth just with some good enemy selection, to say nothing of terrain.
I am a great fan of the D&D 4e fighter due to it having actual crowd control and defender-type abilities. Here is a sample turn for a 4e fighter at level 7:• Minor Action: Activate Rain of Steel, acquiring an automatic damage stance until the end of the encounter. 1[W] is the weapon's base damage, plus any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon, and other miscellaneous bonuses.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power1436• Move Action Minor Action: Use Kirre's Roar, marking each enemy within 3 squares and gaining Dexterity modifier as resistance to all damage until the end of the fighter's next turn.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power12850https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary139• Standard Action: Charge an enemy, with greater accuracy than normal thanks to Fighter Weapon Talent, marking that enemy with Combat Challenge.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary139• Action Point, Standard Action: Come and Get It, pulling enemies within 3 squares, dealing damage to them, and marking them with Combat Challenge as well.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary177https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power2177• The fighter now has damage resistance, several enemies marked, and a whole cluster of enemies adjacent. Rain of Steel deals automatic damage to those enemies, they have a hard time moving away due to Combat Superiority and the fighter's Agile Superiority feat (opportunity actions in 4e are 1/turn, not 1/round, and are completely separate from immediate actions), and even shifting away will trigger an immediate interrupt melee basic attack from the fighter's Combat Challenge. Similarly, if one of those enemies tries to attack one of the fighter's allies, Combat Challenge will likewise go off and give the fighter an immediate interrupt melee basic attack against that foe.https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=class3https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=feat1733https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary119https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=glossary335This is what a 4e fighter can do at level 7, and this is a 30-level game.
>>97811858>>97811881I don't think any critics played enough to rebuke you.Stealing your ideas btw, I'm supposed to run a game next week, and I've only ever played 4e one-shots, never DM'd.
>>97811819pathfinder 2e is a joke. they advertised ripping apart the action economy to make raising your shield an action - good in theory - but when the game launched this was a laughably weak optionthis is based on pathfinder 1e but more so its based on 3.5. big flavorful cheeseburger abilities instead of pathfinder 1's salad bar design. The main thing it keeps from pathfinder is class menus. Ninjas for example get a dedicated lists for spells ( ninjutsu), limit breaks, ninja tricks and ki powers. It also keeps class archetypes but they tend to be much more elaborate than pathfinder ones. >>97811858make sure your friend is still working on their homebrew expansion to assassin and other classes.
>>97811956Thank you. I talk about this more in the other thread: >>97804741I am a great fan of the later Living Forgotten Realms adventures, which ran all the way to 2014. I really do think that Living Forgotten Realms, or at least, many of its later adventures (most of what can be seen in this page), is 4e at its best. Living Forgotten Realms adventures and encounters were late-stage design, where the writers knew what they were actually doing.https://livingforgottenrealms.com/I have DMed and played through several Living Forgotten Realms adventures. Many of them are rather entertaining and have novel encounter setups. One whose combats I particularly like is this:https://livingforgottenrealms.com/adventures/MYTH0603LFR.zip
>>97812423Awesome, I'll see what I can poach from there.
