I was around 11 years ago for the launch of 5e and the sentiment was extremely positive. It was praised for how much control it game DMs over the game. It was seen as a fantastic recovery from 4e moving away from mechanical crunch to focus on the roleplaying. 11 years later and you see the exact opposite sentiment. If you go sleuthing for discussions when it released you will see what I mean, it was positively received and people were singing its strengths. Now when you go look at 5e discussion you find people burning its strengths at the stake like a witch. People complaining about how hard it is on DMs, lacking in concise rulings for things, a lack of crunch they crave. I'm curious why the pendulum swung the other way. The few reasons I come up with are as follows.-the RPG space has welcomed a lot more people into the hobby and the newcomers dislike it-people playing the game for a decade have come around to it and settled on things they dislike-the game isn't appreciated for what it's always been good at and people are playing it differently than how it was meant to be played-the people who have always disliked it are more vocal now and are gaining influence in the RPG spaceThere's a lot of angles to discuss this and come around to understanding it. I'm curious what is the most likely answer to the changing sentiment. My best guess is that since 5e had come out, a lot of other systems have launched, a rising tide raises all boats so to speak, and a lot of newcomers have tried out other systems and now consider some other system their defacto best system, and have since begun to compare 5th edition unfavorably to what they prefer best.
>>97861022>It was praised for how much control it game DMs over the gamelol no it wasnt you fucking retard. I had played since the alpha pre-release and It was aleays garbage.kill yourself
>>978610225e came out after 4e, which was disliked enough that Paizo could launch Pathfinder entirely off the back of all the 3.5 grogs who hated 4e, and despite 4e still being the best-selling RPG you wouldn't know if based on /tg/ and other RPG forums, where people largely ignored it in favor of 3.5 and PF ("3.PF" was a pretty common term to refer to both games since the rules were interchangeable aside from some very minor changes). Compared to 4e, 5e seems like a return to form, so it should hardly be surprising that it was positively received at the time. Over the decade that honeymoon period has worn off, and people have become a lot more aware of the system's flaws. It also doesn't help that "it's popular, therefore it sucks" is a common attitude here, and DnD is the most popular RPG and 5e coincides with the closest period DnD has ever been to "mainstream", so it attracts a lot of criticism because of that. Also some of the flaws of the systems just become more apparent with age, like how after a while you noticed how pretty much every class or specialization tends to pull a lot of its abilities from a pool of common abilities you more or less need for a class to work, and how there's actually very little freedom in building a character beyond choosing the class specialization.
It's just trolls. Trolls who've been allowed to get out of control.Go anywhere other than here, and 5e is still getting top-billing and even widely being treated as THE rpg. While many people have grown tired with the game over the decade, partly thanks to WotC's colossal mismanagement of it, it still is getting some pretty insane amounts of 3rd party support that keeps churning out an actually concerning amount of content, and the amount of lame/lazy memes regarding it is just a never-ending flood at this point, because it takes five seconds to slap "monk" in impact font on a webm of a guy doing a handstand or "rogue" on a webm of a guy getting fucked in the ass or whatever.Here, we're just stuck with people who are scared of getting their Reddit/Twitter accounts banned so they do all of their trolling here.
>>97861022> I was around 11 years ago for the launch of 5e and the sentiment was extremely positive.The D&D Next playtest was a wreck with ignoring feedback, banning forum users and redoing polls.A fucking "positive sentiment" originates from:a. Supposed return to form from 4e. Have nothing to do with how game is actually played.b. Critical Role and others (2015-2017). Have nothing to do with how game is actually played.c. Pop culture exposure aka Stranger Things (mid to late 10s). Have nothing to do with how game is actually played.d. Pandemic boost (2020) with online play. Game is played via VTT.
>>97861040>lol no it wasntit was, this is a discussion for grown ups so I would see you off>>97861487I saw Pathfinder called 3.75 quite a bit. >5e seems like a return to form, so it should hardly be surprising that it was positively received at the time. Over the decade that honeymoon period has worn off, and people have become a lot more aware of the system's flaws.That was something I considered, however as I stated people are grilling the systems strengths after all this time, and that's incredibly odd. The game works perfectly for its intended purposes. 6 encounters per adventure day, resource attrition dungeon crawling, and roleplaying that is improvised DM fiat.
>>97862396>The D&D Next playtest was a wreck with ignoring feedback, banning forum users and redoing polls.That same thing appears to have happened during the OneD&D playtests this time.>many people have grown tired with the game over the decadeThat sounds reasonable to me, after 11 years with the system people might just be yearning to try other games for other themes and modes of play than what D&D is good at.
>>978610224e is not particularly mechanically crunchy, its just feels kind of like a stripped down mobile game to play. That said, there are some important factors>D&D players have always been retarded>old D&D players were especially retardedAllegedly it was public playtest feedback that got maneuvers stripped out of the base fighter class in early 5e, something that is near universally recognized as fucking stupid in (current year). Those people coming from 3.5 and 4 had no fucking idea what they were talking about. As for current 5e fans, a quick jaunt to reddit will tell you everything you need to know. But5e was a significant improvement over 4e in several key ways, and i would rather play 5e than 6e, 4e or 3.5 even today. Its head and shoulders above the rest of its siblings. That doesnt make it good, but its still the most playable.
>>978625184e is so crunchy that it's practically impossible to homebrew.
>>97862482> The game works perfectly for its intended purposes. 6 encounters per adventure day
>>97862518I supposed you mean 5e 2024, because I would be very interested in seeing what the next edition (6th) would be like, personally. I can see them doing what they did with 5e 2014 all over again. Looking at every edition of the game and starting from scratch.
Most people who play 5e don't even know other RPGs even exist, why would they discuss the game's positive and negative aspects in an RPG space if they're not aware of it in the first place?
>>97862578Most people who enjoy D&D, enjoy D&D. I find attempts to belittle people boring.
>>97862555I was homebrewing 4e when i was 10. I havent played it since then, but i keep a phb around and skimming it has never particularly impressed me. Maybe theres something in the DMG i dont know about though. >>97862568The current edition is 6e, I will not respect hasbro's pronouns. >what will 7e be like?Well they're haemorraging money and every few years or so WOTC try to launch another VTT experience, so my guess is a repeat of 6e>push for proprietary vtt/ video game again>microtransactions abound>eternally punished gamdevs make a shit game because hasbro has zero skilled worker retention>inoffensive "broader audience appeal" ai art>ai vtt integration>poorly implemented return of archaeic exploration mechanics or some other similar "we need a gimmick" sales tactic>sending more PMCs to youtuber's houses>another attempt at a more restrictive OGL that captures and monetizes fan content>>97862597>Most people who enjoy D&D, enjoy D&DWhat do you call this? Its a trueism thats not even logically true. A falseism? Crazy
>97862597What a weird reply.
>>97862715>What do you call this?It's literally true. People who play D&D mostly do it because they like it. It was in response to someone saying it was for belittling reasons instead.>I was homebrewing 4e when i was 10. It will result in unbalanced encounters and such. 5e allows for tweaks that land home better.>The current edition is 6eNegatory. They are currently working on 6th edition, then you will run into your "pronouns" problem.>>>what will 7e be like?
>>97861022>Now when you go look at 5e discussion you find people burning its strengths at the stake like a witch. People complaining about how hard it is on DMs, lacking in concise rulings for things, a lack of crunch they crave. I'm curious why the pendulum swung the other way. Fashion. DnD is the industry giant, not the industry leader. 3rd and 4th ed lead to a lot of rules light, story driven indi games. Those got popular for a while, wotc finally caught onto the idea and did light lip service to the concepts but didn't really implement much of it. OSR happened, the indi games have all been shifting back toward mechanical complexity for a while (although there is still and likely will continue on, an established microlight churn). WotC and the games stuck on the plantation are just catching up so they're trying more rules. Its a repeating cycle, happened to rpgs at least once already.
>>97862482>6 encounters per adventure day,No one plays like thatno one has ever played like thatthe core of the system is based on something absolutely retarded
I hated 4e because it felt like they were trying to make a video game into an ttrpg. I hate 5e because it's been made to be as dumb as possible while technically playable. PF is the true successor to what D&D used to be.
>>97861022I've always found it to be marginally less crunchy to run and prep than 3.x or 4e without either of those systems mechanical depth, but significantly more time consuming to prep than similarly simplistic OSR systems.I don't mind it, especially as a player, but it's not really a system I gravitate towards for running. Especially since I've always been more of a sci-fi and post-apocalyptic guy at heart.
I played 5e a few times, and every time the system just got in the way.Like we were all having fun, and then it was time to roll dice, do skill checks, get into combat, and the fun stopped.
>>97862396>ignoring feedbackKnowing which feedback to ignore is rule 1 of any kind of research.
>>97862941>>6 encounters per adventure day,>No one plays like that>no one has ever played like thatGood, then they've read the DMG. Because all it tells you is that maybe you shouldn't go over that number of encounters in a day because PCs lose their steam.
>>97862841You're making stuff up that isn't there.
>>97863285I feel like this as well. A lot of the fun stuff from the previous campaigns we've completely we're down to fun characters and a good GM. Rarely have their been notable "oh shit" moments that have arisen from the mechanics.
>>97862841No. You said>Most people who enjoy D&D, enjoy D&DWhich is the same as saying>a few people who enjoy D&D do not enjoy D&DYou see the issue here? All people who enjoy D&D enjoy D&D. its an irrational statement logically, and a tautology rhetorically.
>>97861022What worldbuilding?
>>97861022It attracted the troons and drama club kids to the hobby, it's extremely dumbed down and all subclasses more or less play the same.
>>97861022I said it was shit and a bunch of people got mad at me, now it's abundantly clear I was right but I never got the naked dogeza apology I deserve.
>>97864428Why do people even keep parroting that number then?>overbro most people barely have one encounter a day.
>>97861022>I was around 11 years ago for the launch of 5e and the sentiment was extremely positive.You had no frame of reference and you were fed the opinions of a handful of retards. You're literally incapable to speak of "the sentiment". You're unironically mentally stunted for not realizing this yourself.While 5e was considered better than 4e, it was still considered garbage by wide swathes of the existing fanbase at the time, and it still is. There was no pendulum swing, you just got old enough to start interacting with a meaningful number of adults with experience on what they speak of.You fucking idiot.
5e was always extremely flawed but now the honeymoon phase is over and its flaws have become public knowledge.
>>97864769such is the way. remember the star wars sequels?
>>97861487Best take in thread
>>97864769>>97864810>>97864866Look upon this troll.See his tactics and methods.Despise him.
>focus on roleplayingJust say 5e had backstories baked into vanilla instead of them coming out later. Backstories that are irrelevant for 99% of games.
>>97861022I played 5e some.Since 4e was my first D&D esperience, I liked it better than that, but I had already tried Runequest and Call of Ch'thulhu by then, so I never thought it was all that.And I was once sent a reprint of the 2e AD&D monster compendium by mistake (got to keep it) so I know how much shallower the game has gotten.
>>97865125Old editions just had the veneer of being deep by virtue of being convoluted. The 2e monster books are more concerned with "What do they eat?" than with "How do they behave?"
>>97864781An encounter isn't necessarily combat bwo. A rickety bridge counts as one.
>97865031Fuck off, troll.
>>97861022I find your entire premise flawed. The pendulum has not swung. More people are playing D&D than ever. 5e has been a wild success. Yes: people now know the specific rules and have lived with them longer and have more to say about them. But the notion that everyone is constantly down on it simply doesn't line up w/ reality. People are happily playing more games of it than they've ever played games of anything.
>>97865231Seriously though, you really have to give up on the whole "a game that has enjoyed more than a decade as the most played and best rated RPG in the entire world several times over is actually bad" thing. It's like if a 3-star Michelin Restaurant was as widespread as every fast food franchise combined. It's got popularity combined with critical appeal and proven longevity in a environment where most games are released and forgotten within a year or two.You might not like it, but it's a solid game and your contrarian shitposting is really nothing more than attention-seeking trolling born out of a decades-plus worth of butthurt.You're like a boxer who got his ass beat, watched his rival become the champion of the world and defend his title for a decade, and then when that rival started to show some signs of age while still being at the top of the world, that beat-up, washed-up boxer still holding onto that grudge would shout "See, I told you he ain't shit" at the empty bar he practically lives in.
>>97864810>the existing fanbasewhat fanbase? 3.5 players? lmao.
>>97865359>comparing D&D to a michellin restaurantD&D is mcdonalds, bozo
>>97865359>>It's popular so therefore it's goodNo. Fuck off.
>>97865359>sports analogy>D&D popular = goodKill yourself asap
>>97865648It's not just popular and widespread though, it's also a critical darling and has proven to have outlasted the initial hype to remain at the top.Comparing it to restaurants doesn't really work, because no restaurant has dominated 50%+ of the market like 5e has. It's like all the most enviable aspects of every kind of restaurant put together: the high praise from critics that starred restaurants have, the endless endorsements from influencers that little boutiques get, the convenience and widespread availability of fast food franchises, 5e is so firmly stapled to the top of the charts that all the other RPGs are fighting over a distant second place.
>>97865660>>97865690No, it's good for a lot of reasons that are largely subjective so people can argue about them endlessly.The thing you CAN'T argue against is its objective success and popularity, which is probably why those make you particularly mad.
>>97865708>It's not just popular and widespread though, its actually popular and widespread!??? Still doesnt make it good. >>97865715>It's good for a lot of reasons that are subjectiveSo, name some about the system specifically. also>its good for subjective reasons!i say: its bad for objective reasons
