File: Get On Loser, We're Gonna(...).jpg (115 KB, 873x627)

115 KB JPG

Stormwind Rider can travel 100 miles per hour in a world where the main form of transportation is horses that can do about 30mph for the same time, or about 2-4mph a day average for long distance travel

In a Modern setting with cars, which can do triple the speed of a horse for much longer durations, would it make sense to triple the speed a Stormwind Rider can do as well? Or even more since its for short bursts?

Also in my head Ride would cover personal transportation (everything from a skateboard/segway to a motorbike and a car) and Sail would cover larger mass transit options. Does that sound about right?

>>97904202
I made a Starmetal and Soulsteel Umbrella (Thunderbolt Shield) with Evocations focused on battlefield movement and protecting children. The starmetal frame was forged from the corpse of a God who was based on Mary Poppins, and she would speak to the attuned bearer through the Soulsteel bird's head at the pommel end of the Starmetal frame.

>>97904202
It was an Orichalcum full plate armor for my Dawn dating back to the closing days of the Divine Rebellion, just prior to the beginning of the First Age. It had Starmetal filigree all over the helm's interior and three Hearthstone sockets framing the wearer's forehead. Its main gimmick was replaying past battles through a sort of AR with phantom opponents that can hurt the wearer for real ST admitted he stole it from Baki in order to understand their fighting style, counter it, and incorporate it into the wearer's own. Its Evocations were all about anticipating the enemy's attacks, disrupting attempts at Sorcery, hard countering Martial Artists and so on. Also counted as a Mentor despite not being sentient. My Dawn also had Past Lives so he began hallucinating his past incarnations' battles more and more as time went on (many Evocations had Limit as part of the price too). It was well worth the five dots but ended up driving my Solar insane, just like it did every past wearer.

>>97904447
Lol, did it fuck with your apperance when you used it? sounds like a neat gimmick.
>>97904448
BASED

>>97904420
>In a Modern setting with cars, which can do triple the speed of a horse for much longer durations, would it make sense to triple the speed a Stormwind Rider can do as well? Or even more since its for short bursts?
I think a 3x speed would be more than enough, what are writting for tho?

>>97904677
Basic reverse isekai where exaltations come to earth, with rules adapted accordingly. I've been trying to convert the space ships in Shards (which are insanely slow to match the rest of the setting) to modern jets as a comparator but that ends up with Stormwind going over 1000 mpg which I think is a bit much

>>97904686
Ok, that seems reasonable. iirc shards or ExWoD should have a more thought out version of the spell for that tipe of game.

If the problem with martial arts is that it's overcosted I would think you could just put in a rule where the more of a martial arts charm tree you learn the less XP the same charms in that tree cost, to represent it being easier to learn a style you're experienced with. You see it a lot of time in those japanese cartoons.

You could base the reduction on the highest essence charm/number of charms you have learned, with some sort of BP discount written in if you take it at character creation.

>>97904202
Why the fuck is my brother d3rLord here?

>>97905274
Ever since the art direction went to shit, people are grappling random art or fanarts for these threads.

>>97905184
Just make styles into Merit chains. CofD did it, a little plagiarism can't hurt. But really, the problem with Martial Arts is that they are BORING. They are shittier combat Charms more or less, and why waste your hard-earned XP in that stuff when you can buy more Sorcerous spells or Attribute/Ability dots, or that Merit you were eyeing a while back instead? It's asinine.

>>97905346
>But really, the problem with Martial Arts is that they are BORING. They are shittier combat Charms more or less.
To fix it you would have to do a ground up rework of the setting, specially how it approaches powers, and turn it in a proper wuxia game, instead of "WoD with an asiatic coat of paint".

>>97905346
I suspect that the devs are still wrapped up in having to balance the game around SMAs because, let’s face it, Sidereal favouritism remains strong throughout all editions. When they’re winning, they get toys that are objectively cooler than anything Lunars are allowed to hold and the prestige of being able to teach Solars. When they’re losing, they get the moral high ground.

>>97905760
>When they’re losing, they get the moral high ground.
They never had it, despite what the devs tried to do.

Exalted morality grayness is more to protect the devs' favorites from criticism.

>>97904420
>In a Modern setting with cars, which can do triple the speed of a horse for much longer durations, would it make sense to triple the speed a Stormwind Rider can do as well? Or even more since its for short bursts?
No. There is absolutely zero reason for Exalted magic to scale to technology or setting. Stormwind Rider will still have niche utility. What would make sense is that sorcerers in that setting develop new spells that take advantage of the setting elements available to them. If people are moving fast because of cars, and someone develops a spell called the Car That Travels Earth and Water, it makes sense that the car it summons would travel faster than the similar spell The Horse That Travels Earth and Water. If someone develops a super fast plane, there's no reason for Conjuring the Azure Chariot to get faster unless someone develops a Conjuring the Azure Jetliner spell - as we see in the Exalted base setting, where incredibly fast transportation did exist in the First Age, but spells did not automatically creep up to match them, and yet there did also (in lore) exist spells of that era based on the infrastructure and commonly available devices of that Age which were considered far beyond what's possible in the Age of Sorrows. Some spells just become niche or outdated and that's okay.

>Also in my head Ride would cover personal transportation (everything from a skateboard/segway to a motorbike and a car) and Sail would cover larger mass transit options. Does that sound about right?
My rule of thumb is that Ride covers everything you can effect by throwing your body weight around. Driving a Guild caravan is Sail, sailing a Haslanti air glider is Ride. The big edge case is the car-to-carriage space, but in modern era I would almost certainly make driving cars Sail.

>>97905346
>why waste your hard-earned XP in that stuff when you can buy more Sorcerous spells or Attribute/Ability dots, or that Merit you were eyeing a while back instead? It's asinine.
Because they're the only combat charms available with splat xp, duh. You do something other than combat, like social or whatever, with your main xp, then fight with your splat xp.

>>97905978
If cars are Sail, doesn't that make Ride too niche?

>>97905778
>despite what the devs tried to do
I don't know, that Solar who turned her household into agonised living glass and Bright Shattered Ice going full 1984 and the massacre of Heartwind Isle and the shattering of time during the Solar civil war and the fact that the Lunars didn't even know how much freedom they had seems like fairly compelling points against the First Age Solars. Especially the part where they actively ignored their own Charms saying they themselves were the problem.

>>97905987
...splat xp existing purely to put more into the combat slots feels like a bandaid on a fundamental game design flaw

>>97906040
You say that like they aren't both too niche to start with. Ride should be part of Athletics and Sail should be part of Survival, this isn't new.

That said, even if you accept Sail/Ride as valid Abilities to begin with, it's still fine like this. Cars being Sail doesn't significantly reduce Ride's use cases, but it does make Sail significant to modern settings where it would ordinarily be relegated to the back of the barn and never taken ever. Sail charms are also typically more applicable to cars than Ride charms are.

>>97906374
There's a reason martial arts and native combat charms aren't compatible, and it's precisely because using all of your xp on combat would be a design flaw. It's 90% of the reason the rule existed in the first place.

>>97906504
In modern settings, people give ride motorcycles to compensate.

>There's a reason martial arts and native combat charms aren't compatible
This was the devs learning the lesson from Eclipse charmshare, and somehow simultaneously forgetting it by allowing attribute exalted to combo.

>and it's precisely because using all of your xp on combat would be a design flaw. It's 90% of the reason the rule existed in the first place
The splat exp rules? It is because originally the devs wanted to give players several different exps to incentive them in not focusing entirely on native charms, than they decided to just create a single exp type that cannot be used to buy native charms.

>>97906368
There being an obvious case against FA Solars doesn't really give Sidereals a moral high ground in regards to anything that's happened after the Usurpation. Not that the devs have ever tried to give Siddies that kind of moral high ground, either.

>>97907120
Oh right, you mean the reincarnations. Yeah not going to argue there on either point, the point has been made pretty clear that Chejop Kejak is a bitter old man neck deep in sunk cost fallacy who by default isn't doing anything sustainable or reasonable to deal with the Age of Sorrows' problems.

>>97906605
>The splat exp rules? It is because originally the devs wanted to give players several different exps to incentive them in not focusing entirely on native charms, than they decided to just create a single exp type that cannot be used to buy native charms.
Yes, but the martial arts and native combat incompatibility rule is because they didn't want to encourage people to just go straight back to spending 100% of their xp on combat. The splat xp rules and martial arts compatibility rules aim at different problems.

>>97907406
I just mean that even if the Usurpation was the best course of action, which can definitely be argued for, Age of Sorrows kind of sucks and Sidereals aren't really doing anything to make it better. Granted, they have a job to do and they're focused on that, but since a lot of what's currently wrong with Creation is a consequence of the Usurpation, I think the people behind Usurpation have a moral responsibility to not leave things a complete mess. My view is that Bronze Faction at some point just gave up, shrugged and went "eh, at least Creation still exists, that's good enough".

>>97907496
Totally fair, and I agree with that. My bad if I read into anything more.

>>97907520
>My bad if I read into anything more.
No worries, I should've just explained my whole view on Sidereals and their moral high ground or lack thereof to begin with instead of making a vague, short post.

>>97907496
nta, I think I'm probably just disagreeing with your moral framework here and we will end up just agreeing to disagree, but under that reading aren't the modern Solars just as culpable as the modern Sidereals if not more? I mean, the modern Solars are still to some extent the same people as the Solars of the First Age thanks to the whole reincarnation thing, and the First Age Solars are way the hell more culpable for the things leading up to and happening during and immediately after the Usurpation compared to the Sidereals.

On the other hand you've got the fact that yes the modern Solars are less culpable because they've reincarnated and had this great big change that's turned their life around as literally as possible (though they still have all the same flaws long-term that lead to the horrible things they did...), but at the same time there was the whole purge of non-Bronze Sidereals that happened and a lot of intimidating people to step into line, and the fact that the Usurpation is at least 50% at the hands of the Dragonblooded - it was happening whether the Sidereals were on side or not, after all, they just backed it and took advantage. It's also just been a hell of a long time which the Sidereals have actually been using to do their jobs and prove good intentions with good actions, on top of setting up a lot of watchdog type instruments to keep Sidereal overreach and arrogance in check which the Solars never did, and it's not like the Sidereals needed to do any of that. It's not like the Solars are the only ones with mitigating factors.

You could argue that the Sidereals should've done more, but it's stressed throughout the books that they're already overworked. Mechanically they could've, but narratively - and it is narrative we're arguing let's be clear - doing more for Creation is both something they get censured for and something they can't do without giving up on something else that's probably more important.

>>97905274
OP here, I really can't be bothered to go to the Exalted Art Archives and find enough pictures to rotate through.

>>97904420

Ran into the amusing situation that at chargen my Scourge, who admittedly is also a rabbit beastman with mutations leading to a high base speed, could run fast enough that using Running To Forever to run at a constant speed of dash per round could scout ahead by a week and a half of travel time in a single afternoon.

>>97907496
According to the subtext from 1e Sidereals, it was the worst option.
But you cannot say it without somebody throwing a bitchfit defending it

>Heavenly Guardian Defense allows also the Solar to guard against damage deemed impossible to parry, such as un-expected attacks, hurled bolts of acid or lightning, the burning curses of Kimbery and so on, for just four motes.
Hurled bolts of lightning are impossible to parry.

>Elemental Bolt Attack: The Dragon-Blood channels elemental Essence into a deadly blast. Air manifests as crackling lightning;
Elemental Bolt Attack channels elemental Essence into a bolt of lightning, which you throw.

I posit that Elemental Bolt Attack (Air) is impossible to parry, though this is not made explicit in it's own charm text.

>>97908052
>According to the subtext from 1e Sidereals
Which you're sooooo good at reading. You've never been wrong. They call you the subtext master. You've never asserted invisible subtext to get out of having to prove your points.

>>97908090
it's not lightning, it's just weirdly shaped essence goop

>>97908110
>it's not lightning, it's just weirdly shaped essence goop
Everything in Exalted is weirdly shaped essence goop. Something being made of essence doesn't make it not real.

>>97908096

According to 1e Sidereals, they will act exactly like you did; if Sidereals join together for a prophesy, the worse their ability to see the future will be, and they will be incapable of taking or understanding another option.
This big sidebar was in the same pages where they talked about how all Sidereals joined together for a big prophesy (the 3 visions)

The book even sets up the irony of the sword of Creation (a twilight super weapon) saving and putting the world under the Scarlet Empress mercy earlier on.

>The vision of bronze didn't work as expected*, but it is better than living under the mercy of a twilight's super weapon**

*because of all reasons mentioned in the blind prophets sider bar
** the world was saved, and is under the mercy of one of such weapons

>>97908134
>if Sidereals join together for a prophesy, the worse their ability to see the future will be
That's actually flat out wrong. Sidereal's ability to see and especially to plan out the future gets better as more Sidereals join together, and this is the main incentive that keeps bringing them back together despite taco cart shenanigans happening every goddamn time. The Sidereal charmset has more than a handful of effects that work best in synergy with large groups of Sidereals, and in 1e Sidereal terms a handful of charms is a lot.

What does happen is that large groups naturally narrow down discussion to fewer options and polarizes the Sidereal gathering around those options as strong personalities loggerhead. This is pretty standard political theatre stuff, just happening faster and more consistently and with more drastic outcomes (see: dissenters to the final mainstream Bronze decision being purged). The actual prophecies are very very good, in that they are accurate and precise, they're just politicized and their flaws get glossed over because of it.

The subtext is American politics.

>>97908161
>That's actually flat out wrong. Sidereal's ability to see and especially to plan out the future gets better as more Sidereals join together
Did you miss their 1e great curse?

>>97908161
>The subtext is American politics.
What I posted isn't incompatible with it, specially with the war on Iraq, and how America keeps repeating the same mistakes despite what Europe tells.

>>97908052
You can't say it without assuming the kind of certain knowledge about potential alyernative futures that doesn't exist in the setting.

>>97908090
If it doesn't day it's unblockable, I wouldn't assume it's unblockable.

>>97908134
All of that is to make clear that despite all their abilities Siddies are fully capable of fucking up colossaly. That's all.

>>97908090
I see no reason to disagree, it says it manifests as crackling damn lightning, I would assume it behaves as such. To do otherwise is to enter the realm of 3e Charm madness where what a Charm can or cannot do is as subjective and up for interpretation as Raksha Shaping Combat in 2e.

>>97908243
Nah, the way to avoid Charms being up to interpretation is just to assume that they're unblockable if and only if they say they are.

>>97907703
>aren't the modern Solars
Consider that the modern Solars, being deprived of unbiased and objective accounts of the First Age, have no reasonable way to be informed of the true nature and magnitude of their powers as well as the legacy they inherited; the Sun probably does not stick around long enough for most Zeniths to patiently explain all of history. Whatever your interpretation of Exaltations and reincarnations, unlike the Sidereals they don't have convenient records to form an informed decision from. As far as they know they just saved a village from a yeddim stampede by carving a small valley with their bare hands, they're glowing gold, and if they were of the Immaculate Faith they now think they're a demon and are horrified.

>they're already overworked
A point against the Sidereals is that /they themselves/ are at fault for a significant portion of the overwork, due to philosophical disagreements of varying personal investment and extremity between the leaders of the Bronze and Gold Factions between editions (I think it was at it's worst in 2e, where Chejop was actually banging the Gold Faction's reincarnation until she remembered she used to have opposing views on Solars with him and parted ways to get back on-mission). It doesn't help that at least one of the responses to emergent Solars, the Cult of the Illuminated, is...sketchy as hell, despite amusingly not even saying anything incorrect.

I wonder if part of the reason they made Getimians a thing in 3e is to try to take the heat off Sidereals for being blamed for the continuing state of the Age of Sorrows (even if despite attempts to walk back how much the specific event mattered, Getimians themselves happened because of a furious gay incel willing to declare war on Heaven for cockblocking him)

>>97908211
>You can't say it without assuming the kind of certain knowledge about potential alyernative futures that doesn't exist in the setting.
By this logic, Sidereals cannot divinate at all.

>All of that is to make clear that despite all their abilities Siddies are fully capable of fucking up colossaly
It outright said exactly how the vision of bronze would fail, down to the Deathlords.

>>97908313
>By this logic, Sidereals cannot divinate at all
That does not follow from what I said by any reasonable logic.

>It outright said exactly how the vision of bronze would fail, down to the Deathlords.
And yet Creation still existed, and a likely alternative - not a certain alternative, because, again, no certain knowledge of all potential futures - to Usurpation would be that just no longer being the case.

>>97908330
>And yet Creation still existed,
Not because of Sidereals, but because of the "mercy" of a Solar super weapon... the reason for why the Usurpation happened in the first place.

>>97908330
>and a likely alternative - not a certain alternative, because, again, no certain knowledge of all potential futures
>Sidereals joined together to see possibly futures isn't seeing alternate possibilities.
Are you basing your judgment on 3e? I heard that it removed the visions.

>>97908342
Are you somehow unclear on what the word "certain" means?

>>97908362
Since there's no "certainty" to it, Sidereals doomed the world based on vibes.
Which makes their situation worse.

>>97908394
No, they doomed (or saved?) the world based on the best information they had available, which was not perfect but still pretty good and, more impirtantly, what they actually had to work on. The actual point of pointing out the lack of certain knowledge about alternative possible timelines was that there's no guarantee that any other course of action would've led to a better outcome.

>>97908417
The only reason for why the world still exists, is because of the Empress and a Solar super weapon.
Otherwise the vision of bronze would have ended up as a second vision of black.

Just as Grabowski envisioned in his epic tragedy, "everybody pointed fingers at each other until the world went caput".

>>97908436
One reason why the world exists is also because FA Solars were stopped before they could do anything to irreversibly damage it, though.

>>97908444
So the visions are certain now?

>>97908467
I genuinely don't know if you're being obtuse on purpose or if you're legitimately misunderstanding something. Saying that there's no certain knowledge of alternative timelines isn't saying anything new or non-canon. Visions have an obvious source of uncertainty in the influence of things outside Fate, but beyond that the Vision of Gold is inherently, explicitly an uncertain thing. The most certain thing about the Visions is that things were going to shit if nothing was done, though.

>>97908489
Thanks for hindsight, we know that the vision of bronze was also the same as the vision of black.

>>97908507
Nah, Creation's currently nowhere near Vision of Black levels of horror. It's a shithole but no more than ancient world IRL was, with some of the supernatural bullshit that makes Creation different from the real world making things wprse and some of it making things better. It still exists, people live lives worth living, there's potential for things to get better, and none of the threats facing Creation is literally or even figuratively impossible to deal with.

>>97908528
Because of the Empress, and a Solar super weapon, otherwise it would have been destroyed as talked in the blind prophets sidebar.

>>97908540
So? It's not Vision of Black - tier, was what I said. That the unforeseen disaster of Balorian Crusade could be stopped by Empress and the Sword of Creation shows that Creation's not defenseless without Solars - not safe either, because it was a close call, but not defenseless. That RGD is a Solar relic - except in those bits of lore that attribute it to Autochthon, of course - doesn't really matter much, because stuff Solars would leave behind was a kmown quantity part of the equation when Sidereals were pondering whether to usurp or to not usurp. The main point that I'll reiterate, though, is just that so far Creation has avoided Vision of Black level horrors, even if narrowly, and that the current state of things isn't even close to the worst case scenario.

>>97908540
>the Empress
Who was a Sidereal pawn.

>and a Solar super weapon
If we're going to say that leftovers from a previous age shouldn't count then anything that a demon helped with shouldn't count, which means sorcery doesn't count. Taken to the extreme we could point out that Exaltations are Autochthon's superweapons, so if they save the world it's Autochthon who saved the world not the Exalted, right? That's the kind of shit you're arguing right now.

>>97908565
>1e!Sidereals: We did the Usurpation so the fate of creation wouldn't be decided by a Solar weapon.
>The fate of creation was decided by a Solar weapon.

>>97908582
>Who was a Sidereal pawn.
Ketchup was drunken during it.

>>97908834
No, anon, Sidereals did the Usurpation because they got worried about Solars getting increasingly deranged, and when they got together to use their prophetic abilities to figute out how bad things really were going to get, everything they saw pointed toeards "really fucking bad unless something's done about Solars".

In 1/2e there was an approximate ratio of how many talents of gold or silver were needed to make a talent of orichalcum or moonsilver. Does anyone know it off the top of their head?

>>97908582
>Who was a Sidereal pawn.
She became a Pawn later on after gaining her title.

File: money.png (925 KB, 610x1303)

925 KB PNG

>>97908944
From 2e.

File: exalted money.jpg (621 KB, 3700x1701)

621 KB JPG

>>97909310
This should also help.

Pretty sure the whole "A bunch of sidereals getting together whilst viewing the result of fate" are just them picking something and it becoming true, a self fulfilling prophecy basically. It doesn't 'force reality to be this way' like some shitty Yozi, it's them 'making reality this way through paperwork and adventuring'. It doesn't auto win against solars or anyone really. The sidereals still have to do all the work because that's what they are.

The Age of Darkness was a certainty, if they did nothing Creation was fucked. Especially if the sidereals all agreed with doing nothing.

The Age of Bronze was certain, it's outcome described as solid and easy. The Solars were so fractured at this point that I don't think I've seen any reference to the sidereals possibly losing when trying to bring it about. The solars are mighty but can't face everyone alone and are very insane. The way they were wrong about the Age of Bronze as far as I can tell is that they DRASTICALLY underestimated the reduction to Creation. Things outside of fate and all that.

The Age of Gold is the only one that wasn't a certainty, Sidereals had no idea what was going to happen. They also wouldn't be 'in charge' and if they failed then Creation was doomed. The multiple futures they saw was a good thing but they misinterpreted that part, you want a Creation with multiple futures. What they were right about was that they had no idea if they could win and if they lost everything was fucked.

Grapple is a great gambit for use against adults, but Distract is by far the best gambit for use vs children

Anyone running?

>>97908944
>how many talents of gold or silver were needed to make a talent of orichalcum or moonsilver
You're talking about via alchemy, right? Oadenol's Codex pg23, it was a Resources 3 purchase of the required material to get a pound of the desired magical material. So, according to >>97909315 it'd be around five talents of silver to one pound of moonsilver. The amount of gold is much more flexible, both because we don't really know how much gold costs in Exalted. It could be much less than IRL since it's not a valuable currency or associated with wealth / value, and it's associated with the hated Solars, but it could be much more because nobody's mining it and the legacy supplies got turned into orichalcum.

>>97909633
Consider that outside of extremely controlled circumstances, springing grapple gambits on children is a good way to give everyone nearby a Major Tie of disgust to you

>>97910626
Shoat of the Mire comes at you with a rusty poop knife hidden up her sleeve on a crowded street, what do

>>97910634
Kill the Dowager

>>97904202
>Have you ever created custom armor artefacts for your games?
Yes

>Lore
The armour was made as a supercomputer to let me pull entertaining retroactive abilities while in combat.

>>97910634
Celestial Bliss Trick.

>>97909352
This.

You are trapped in a room with two buttons. One button gets you out of the room. The other button has a 50/50 chance of getting you out of the room with a million bucks, or making both buttons disappear forever. If you don't get out you die of dehydration.

>>97910954
Unknown to you the "100% sure" button was jury rigged to a nuclear bomb, luckily for you some else had some potassium iodide

>>97911021
>Unknown to you the "100% sure" button was jury rigged to a nuclear bomb, luckily for you some else had some potassium iodide
The more accurate 'vision of bronze can fail' that I was considering adding as a second paragraph was:

You don't know this, but it's possible that later on you might go into poverty and get stuck in a crime-ridden neighborhood. You might get stabbed on the street.

>>97911086
It would make more sense if it was:
A real state agent gave you three housing options.
A) a house in a really violent neighborhood.
B) a beautiful house with several problems, but if you work hard maybe you will fix it.
C) a comfortable house more plain to above, but the real state agent didn't tell you about the indigenous burial grounds.

>>97910634
Well that's Join Battle, at which point the social system is irrelevant when you can just shut up everyone with a punch until the scene is over. IMMEDIATELY winny WIN the comically easy grapple gambit check after flurrying with an Awareness Charm to negate the surprise attack, SAVAGE her until she drops the knife and spend any remaining rounds of control on a good hard SLAM straight into the sharpest object in the room.

>>97911156
The big problem with the Gold Vision is that it falls directly into the Black Vision, while still having all the unseen flaws of Bronze. So, your options can very easily be reduced to two:
>A) A beautiful house in a really violent neighborhood, built on indigenous burial grounds
>B) A comfortable house in a nice neighborhood, built on indigenous burial grounds

>>97910586
>>97909310
>>97909315
Grazie

>>97909352
>just them picking something and it becoming true, a self fulfilling prophecy basically
God King's Shrike?

In my opinion the real problem with the Vision of Gold was that it was made based on prophecies that can't factor the Great Curse into the predictions. They worked out that they only had a small chance of making it work even if you only consider that the Solars were assholes, not considering that they were being driven crazy by external factors. There was only a small chance of the Sidereals making a convincing enough argument even if they weren't locked into arrogance and self-centric logic, to say nothing of the effects of the 2e curse that could've gone 'you're going to sabotage the whole thing and nobody can talk you out of it' to any of the Sidereals who'd ever limit broken ever, since the future actions their GC dictated could lie in wait to become relevant way later if it wanted.

If the chances of success were small even in the prophecies that didn't take into account the fact that everybody involved was being driven to self-sabotage by an ancient death curse, there's no real reason to believe that the Vision of Gold would for sure have been more than a mirage in the first place.

>>97911883
This is also true of the Bronze though because the Siddies were also suffering the GC

>>97911886
That's rather my point. If there's a hidden extra 10% chance of failure, and the Vision of Gold had a 10% chance of success while the Vision of Bronze had a 100% chance of success, then the Vision of Gold is impossible, while the Vision of Bronze is only flawed.

>>97910586
>>97911837
A Jade talent is roughly 68 pounds, and is 4 feet by 2 feet in size.
Are silver/gold talents measured by weight or size?

>>97912027
>is 4 feet by 2 feet in size
also 1/2 to 1 inch in thickness

File: 82e032a93e7d51523ed01b27f(...).jpg (943 KB, 4096x2896)

943 KB JPG

>>97912031
>also 1/2 to 1 inch in thickness
A mina is a quarter inch, and while it goes through scorings as it gets cut down from a talent, I don't think they get scored that deep, so they're likely closer to half inch in thickness than a full inch.

File: 1e talents.jpg (53 KB, 358x356)

53 KB JPG

>>97912027
>Are silver/gold talents measured by weight or size?
Talent is a standardized measurement of value. A silver talent is 64 pounds. Ref: Manacle and Coin.

5 talents (320lb) of silver to get 1 lb of moonsilver
Need 5 talents of moonsilver to make a daiklaive
Need 102,400 lb of silver to make a moonsilver daiklaive

damn

>>97912077
What the Guild doesn't you to know is not that the return of the Solars has irrevocably broken the economy, but that it has been broken ever since the Silver Pact gained a proper foothold in Creation and every financier and banker is working to keep the populace ignorant of that.