"What's this?""Your tabletop game, sir.""No no, that can't be right. Where's the railroad? The plot? The story?""It's all up to you sir. You just tell the GM what you wanna do next session, and the story is all up to you."
Tabletop games don't have railroads (unless they're about trains), and they have the plot and story built in do as to be as unobtrusive as possible.Anything else is simply a collaborative writing activity or improv theater exercise.
>>97923437I wish that you killed yourself and stopped bothering me with inane threads where you spam the same tired nonsense every single day.Also I pity the poor fucker who has you as a player
>>97923437I don't get the joke.
>>97923568About 2 weeks ago someone lost an internet argument and >railroad has been the bait-de-jour for this cycle. Its been diminishing returns for them so it will likely drop out after a few more and just be part of the regular seasonal rotation.
>>97923568the joke is that somebody got butthurt.
>>97923605Oh, no, I get that.I don't get the reference OP is trying to McDonald's, though.
>>97923627https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TzbHOU758k
>>97923627No real idea what the image is from but I suspect we're suppose to put together >angry but dumb customer is whoever their imaginary frenemy is >smug but passive aggressive servant is OP or someone simulating butthurt OP >joke is servant befuddles and frustrates angry man No idea what movie its.
>>97923679>>97923683Oh my bad. Its not what I thought it was at all. joke is >thing big and popular is different than initial design and initial designer is befuddled Looks interesting, thanks anon.
>>97923437>still going on
>>97923437kek
>>97923568the joke can be whatever you want
>>97923437Weren’t you that guy who got revealed to run a play by post game on Discord and never have played an actual ttrpg in his life? And not even run, considering all of the “sandbox” elements were done by just rolling on random encounter charts the entire time?
>>97923683>I suspect we're suppose to put togetherYou're retarded
>>97923437>just tell the GM what you wanna do next session, and the story is all up to youIceberg ahead, captain!
>>97923568.... So what do I do, just laugh at the joke? And then what?
>>97923437It's been almost two weeks and I've still never got a clean answer on how a "true" sandbox campaign is meant to play out. And I mean this in the realistic, week-to-week sense. GMs are still very human and likely unable to conjure memorable encounters within the five seconds it took for PCs to decide they're going to wander into a mysterious cave. Like, between the VTT and filling in the statblock sheets that would take at least 20-30 minutes of full focus.Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the idea of sandboxes - I've always wanted to play a Living World, for example, or run one for me and eight other friends - but I hear too many people yearning for what is clearly a fantasy rendition of how campaigns actually function. GMs aren't Go Into Games Machines.
>>97923568They expect you to do the DM's work.
>>97923498>Anything else is simply a collaborative writing activity or improv theater exercise.That's what sandbox is though. It's just mother may I.
>>97924435They prepare in between sessions. Sometimes that might mean "reskinning" the bandits they were going to fight into "hobgoblins" since they're now in a place that has a lot of goblinoids
>>97924435>too many people yearning for what is clearly a fantasy rendition of how campaigns actually function >After posting an entirely fabricated poor understanding of how sandbox cpaigns function You dumb.
>>97924561Then how do they function?! Is it like >>97924450 says? Because this seems like railroading with extra steps. If the PCs ask for rumors then that means I'm drawing from prepared material.
>>97924586Ask nicer.
If a player demanded something happen next session I'd be stunlocked for a bit. Then wonder why they aren't just running the game themselves if they're gonna treat me like their personal chef.
>>97924607Why do you assume they're "demanding" anything and not simply asking for something they think would be cool and, better, trying to check if YOU, the DM, would also be cool with that sort of development?
>>97924435Usually you prepare the starting part of an area, like what they will encounter if they first enter the strange forest, or the deep cavern, or the abandoned town. You would do well already knowing what the general gist of said area is so you can narrate as they start checking the location. Once they choose one location you run the first encounters, and then you know that's the are you need to prep. You can expand the area depending on their interest. You also need to have a table of random encounter by are in case they suddenly decide to quit and go somewhere else.
>>97924435>>97924630That said, my main issue as someone who has run and play sandbox is the lack of an end point and a narrative thread. Is more like a bunch of one shots, works well for something like West Marches, and even better with a rotating cast of players, but for a single group it doesn't work unless the players have very clear character goals and work towards it. Otherwise, is better just to make a game with a clear endpoint (wander this map, your starting objective is to gather resources and kill this bad guy) and just let them get there when they feel like it.
>>979244352 weeks and you still haven't noticed these threads are just bait and the faggots making them are talking out of their ass?
>>97923437You're so desperate that you're using garbage-tier alphazoomer memes now.
>>97924435I will sell you the answers to your questions.
>>97924435Most of what makes something memorable is the core concept. The concept of something is less mutable in the moment than the mechanics of it. Most people aren't necessarily going to instantly engage with something in a way that necessitates having concrete mechanics for it in the moment. And if they do, you can always take a glace at some appropriate tables or similar encounters to quickly derive some statistical information for whatever you had planned.You paint in broad strokes and fill in as it becomes necessary. If you know the players are heading to Port Flounder at the end of session 5, then you have until session 6 to put down all the important particulars of Port Flounder.
>>97924624When you "tell the GM what you want to do next session" and there's no discussion or accepting that they might say no? Yeah, that's making a demand.
>>97923437Eventually AI DMs are going to be a thing that doesn't suck, and it's going to crush tabletop
>>97925771/tg/ tries not to assume the worse interpretation in the most obtuse way: challenge impossible!>yeah you look good today>IMPLYING I DONT LOOK GOOD EVERY DAY?!
>>97924607If you're running the game you are the personal chef. Cook the players what they want to eat.
>>97925791It’d still be a novelty at best, since ttrpgs are still a social activity. Otherwise you’d just play a video game for a more fulfilling experience.
>>97925798>>97925807Ironic
>>97925807Nah. Or rather that is one way of being a GM. Another is to go "I'm running a game about x, anyone interested?" and then run that game for people who are interested. It's important to remember that the GM's also a player who's there to have fun, not someone who's there doing a job or providing a service.
>>97924441More like you're empowered to narrate the outcomeImprovlets need not apply
>>97924435You get little pieces of paper and you write ideas on them to use later. You can use a pencil to write words on paper. There are a number of different pencils you can get and also you can use different words.
>>97924435If you haven't figured it out instinctively as a child then you're never going to. Just give up on this hobby.
>>97925771I think the example in the OP is spposed to be more like>"Hey dm, you remember those rumors about the creepy house? We were planning on checking it out session.The player's come up with a plan/goals and then forewarn the dm so that he can prepare.
>>97924450So a quantum ogre situation, ergo railroading. Got it.
>>97924607>What nogames faggots on /tg/ think happens"GM I DEMAND MY CHARACTER GETS ELEVENDY BILLION GOLD NEXT SESSION AND ALSO BECOMES BFFS WITH THE KING">What actually happens"Y'know GM since we're going to be heading into a larger city it'd be nice if we could have some downtime, maybe craft some items with all this gold we have?"Speaking from experience, I've put forth suggestions in two games I'm in between sessions via DMs and both GMs have responded positively to what I presented. You pathetic losers are so detached from reality and so misanthropic that you can't fathom friends playing games together, players wanting cool shit to happen to the party, and the GM wanting to have cool shit happen to the party. You insufferable, miserable cunts think that every game is the GM versus the Players, that a TTRPG is just a string of randomly rolled combat encounters with no endpoint. It's not. Those of us with actual games play with our friends, and sure, sometimes shit just happens due to spur of the moment thinking, but sometimes, and I know this is going to send OP and his brigade of gay lovers into a tizzy, the game is actually better when the players and GM work together to guide the game towards certain story beats. Does this mean things will always go as planned? No, of course not, that's where the dice come in. Does it mean that things are more personal and interesting to the people involved in the game? Absolutely.
>>97926087>I know you want spaghetti, but we're having pizza again. DONT LIKE IT JUST STARVE.weeeeeee, rpgs so much fun boys
>>97924435Read AD&D 1E dmg. It will clear things up about anything rpg related. Really its required reading if you want to briswe this board but illiterate retards will oppose this sentiment.
>>97926224You can cook by yourself, son, you're not a child.
>>97926224Again, the GM's there to have fun, not to provide a service. If you absolutely insist on a food metaphor, he's not your personal chef, he's just someone who likes cooking and sharing what he cooks with other people. If he feels like making some pizza and asks if you want to come over to have some, you obviously don't have to say yes, but it'd be a dick move to demand him to make spaghetti instead. If you don't like pizza, don't agree on a pizza night with friends. Of course food metaphor doesn't actually work, because the GM's not offering a fully prepared meal. Campaign's not something prewritten but something that takes it shape during play, and that's the case whether we're talking about sandbox campaigns or more plot-oriented ones.
>>97926434why cook at all? I like my games RAW
>>97923437>another fucking railroad threadMods are desperate, huh?
>>97924435In my experience, sandbox play inevitably bottlenecks down to a singular plot. Start with a wide open, very vague setting. Have a handful of plothooks and potential threats or inciting incidents in your back pocket in case things drag on. Or source some ideas from the player characters. Point is, you let the players find trouble, even if it's just realizing that they have finite funds and need money, or that they need to get the fuck out of town, but need enough rations to get them to the next town. Eventually, they'll cause enough trouble for the story to become self-perpetuating.The kind of faggots beating the chests about the pure euphoria of sandbox play are almost exclusively talking in fake smug guy quips and unsubtly letting on that they don't know shit about shit, and just assume that a TTRPG GM is like the computer for a video game. The players sit down every session and the GM just waits for them to say what they're doing, because the world is just full of activities and dungeons waiting for the players. Then the GM tells them what dice to roll and when they encounter some monster or a dungeon. They play for a few hours until they get bored and that's the sandbox, based entirely on their retarded misunderstanding of TTRPGs.
>>97924443A sandbox allows you to go anywhere you want in a "living world".That "living world" still has its own internal logic, and that logic is portrayed through the game's rules; established character options (abilities/equipment/powers/tools), enemy behaviors/abilities.Just because you can go wherever you want doesn't mean you can suddenly go against the rules of the game. Player characters won't (nor should) be able to declare flight in a sandbox game that doesn't establish rules for player character flight.
>>97926482>he's not your personal chefthen someone else can cook tonight instead
>>97926482>Campaign's not something prewritten but something that takes it shape during playthat's why the metaphor was that he's a personal chef to begin with, who do you think is going to be doing a lot of the shaping of the campaign during play? the players, and if they want the adventure to cater to them, like it's kind of going to be doing naturally, it's best to lean more into it as well
>>97926574you dont seem to get sandbox play, with your talk of brow beating, and of the sandbox devolving into railroads
>>97923437It really is like this. Its how I do cyberpunk. Just build the story off of whatever their interested in doing in the city. If a particular NPC catches their interest, we'll expand on that. Same with plot threads. Now and again ambush them with unexpected problems to keep things lively. You don't need to keep a big list of prepared statblocks. You can just steal them or do guesswork. Or if a thread ends up building towards something, then I start hashing out enemy builds.
>>97926734Are you playing RED?How do you get maps if they decide to fight in an area you didn't expect you to?
>>97926694Wow, that's one hell of an entitlement complex. Maybe you should cook?
>>97926918I took my favorite elements from 2020 and melted that into REDs more streamlined gameplay.I almost never prepare maps unless they're on some convoluted gig where they're busting into a place. And if its that setious, they typically do a session of prep beforehand, giving me time to get it ready. If I don't get that time, I just use the drawing tools available to me and scribble it down as they explore.
>>97926973Yeah I don't think I have the skill to make a good looking map in the time they wanna start a fight I'll stick with having vague locations and the areas where they fight looking exactly like the ones I prepared beforehand.
>>97926204OP absolutely destroyed. (Again)
>>97924435not OP, here is a non-troll reply from my personal experiencefirst of all>worldsandboxes are not about scope, they are about player freedomThe village of Hommlet has only 3 mapped locations and no wilderness but it's still a sandboxThe key is to create a location and put some shit the players can interact with such as >NPCs and factions, services and money-sinks, dangers and rewards, conflicts and problems, occasional eerie WTF thing etc.not focusing on how scenes will play out in advancenow if you are specifically thinking about a hexcrawl sandbox then the steps are- start with a single sandbox style location, like a village- have a map ready of about a day's travel away from the village, maybe one or two small points of interest to explore- present activities opportunities>info and or rumors about rewards, conflicts, problems etcsome might be solved here others might require travel (you don't need to have the place ready in advance, just have a rough idea why travel is required)- at the end of a session or in between sessions ask what the players want to do for the next session- if they want to investigate something local, work on finer details and flesh it out- if they want to travel somewhere, you prep another sandbox location relevant to the thing they are trying to investigate- you are actually free to introduce an overarching meta-plot about some major conflict like a war or something, and progress it from time to time. The players can get involved, or it can just be a background thing the NPCs are talking about, either is fine, and in the latter case you don't have to make it super fleshed out>Army A has taken city of N so now there are refugees and army B retreating through location Mis plenty fine- you are free to include hooks to players backstories here and there as well>hey see that criminal being lead to the gallows? that's your childhood friend Bob!
>>97925791what will happen is that autistic players will stop coming to my tablefor the rest of us who want to have a fun-time screen-off activity with their friends nothing will changeeveryone wins
>>97926087if that's what you mean there is an easy fix of setting up common expectations of what the game is going to be abouton every session zero I openly state that I want to play a game about swashbuckling adventuring, getting into dungeons and castles, killing monsters and getting lootand if someone wants to play a game about falling in love with a tavern wench, settling down to have a home, and running a dung-farm or whatever they can leave and save everyone the timeand if someone would try that shit nonetheless,the first time I would polity remind that it's not the game we've gathered to play, the second time I'm saying fine, and then I'm making their old character into a dung-farmer the NPC, and they are rolling a new character
>>97926482>If you absolutely insist on a food metaphorIt's like a barbecue partyI'm going to grill some meat and drink some beer, wanna come join, bring some more meat and beer?
Imagine how hard one must be seething to make a thread like this.
>>97927147Considering how anons have been making threads to extol sandbox games while seething about the thought that the game master is in fact a human being they have to interact with and not a mindless adventure dispenser, I don’t have to imagine.
>>97927158I'd be fine with people extolling the virtues of sandbox games if they could do so without shitting on every other way of playing RPGs. A lot of fa/tg/uys seem pathologically incapable of just liking and enjoying something without simultaneously hating on and seething about something else.
>>97927241I don't think these threads made by someone who actually experienced a TTRPG.
>>97926164It's up to the OP to not write like a faggot, not our job to give a good faith interpretation of what's blatantly bait.
>>97926204>the game is actually better when the players and GM work together to guide the game towards certain story beatsThat was the point of the post. I like it this way too.>t. OP (asexual)
>>97926705Because it genuinely doesn't work long term. If the players are going to stay invested to play for more than a couple sessions, they need something to invest in. Characters and stories and unfolding plots. If you're just randomly generating dungeons and random encounters every week, players will get bored and the game will fall apart. A thing you'd understand if you ever actually played a TTRPG in your life.
>>97923498No, they don't have any plot or story built in.
>>97923605yeah, you lost the argument lol
>>97924226still mad about losing and running bad games? lol
>>97924435the players do things, and the GM adjudicates rules as needed. have you never been in a game?
>>97924435VTT? Statblock sheets? What are you talking about?
>>97923498>>97927711It's true; the DM might have a frame, but the story itself tends to be emergent within that frame.And the broader the frame, the less directed the growth.It is an organic process.The DM is less the storyteller and more the referee/narrator
>>97924607who said that this is what happens at any point? are you having a stroke?
>>97924657the narrative is whatever you do in the game. why do you need an end point determined ahead of time?
>>97924435>Play session>Players say what they want to do next session>Prepare that thing for next session>Always have a few rough ideas for minor things they could stumble on or other major things they might want to pursueIt's a little more work, but ultimately you're still preparing one path, but keeping a lot of rough ideas for other paths on standby.
>>97925771who said that there's no discussion? who said that he can't say no? can you point out the post for me?
>>97926067Nope.
>>97927696It works fine. The players invest in their own goals and the things that happen during the game and the people they meet.
>>97926204No, it works better when the GM does his job, which is referee, and nothing else.
>>97927715>>97927720>>97927725>>97927731>>97927736>>97927739Damn girl u thursty.
>>97926574You haven't experienced a sandbox, then.
>>97924443Not at all.
>>97927764Concession accepted.
>>97927759And then, as described, it stops being a sandbox. Do you even know how these things work? Have you ever run a game?>>97927765>almost exclusively talking in fake smug guy quips
>>97927787nou
>>97926705>you don't seem to get sandbox playDo you? GMs aren't computers and tabletop is not video games. Even something as vague as, "let's become Sky Pirates!" Will inevitably command the PCs (or a fraying GM) to come up with a "grand arc" where the PCs hear the One Piece is real. What I consider to be the ultimate expression of Sandbox: Tales of an Industrious Rogue (aka, Sandspit) was not so much a "Do Anything" as it was the PCs deciding they're going to fixate on one particular aspect of the setting, and the GM modifies their narrative accordingly.That, in my opinion, is not just the true expression of sandbox play but the true magic behind collaborative storytelling. The man across the table isn't your slave, nor is he an overlord; he's a friend that's just as interested as you are in seeing everyone smile and share in the moment. The best campaigns I've ever ran involved me throwing out my notes after the first three sessions - not because they were ruined, but because the players showed more fascination in, say, slice-of-life than epic mysteries, or in plane hopping than fighting robots. I guess what this means is that the GM isn't a "master," he's a "curator" that slowly remodels the campaign into something he sees gets more investment. Apologies if that rambled away from the original point - it's early and I've got the coffee buzz - but the point I'm making is that the ideal Sandbox is not about dumping the PCs into a vague world and telling them to figure it out, but to set them on an adventure with the understanding that at any point they might diverge to something they find more interesting, and thus the adventure will adjust itself accordingly. People don't wake up and decide to become Sky Pirates, they chance upon the opportunity and seize it.
>>97924435>Like, between the VTT and filling in the statblock sheets that would take at least 20-30 minutes of full focus.Sandbox campaigns have issue when attempted with systems with more modern and complex monster stat blocks and terrain assumptions. Compare the simplified stat blocks of a 1e/2e D&D orc to the stat blocks of an orc in 3e and later editions. A simplified 1e stat block is 2 lines where as even "simple" monsters in later editions are much longer.
>>97927800No, it doesn't stop being a sandbox. Do you? Have you?>projecting.
>>97924435lol, stat block.Threat Level : determined by regional averageAttacks and powers TL +1Active def TL +0Passive def TL -1Psychic def TL -2Special def TL -3Heavy armor : +3 passive defMindless : immune to mental effectsDangerous : +3 attacksAlert : +3 special defMentalist : +3 psychic defAgile : +3 active defThis base stat card with tag combinations can generate 99% of beings in the world. All else an actor's note card needs is whatever powers they have. Villains can have specific modifiers applied for further differentiation.
>>97927858Well, I guess that answers it? "True" sandboxes can only be experienced in primitive states, just like how communism works really well in tiny tribal units. As the system becomes more advanced, so too must your participation within it. As I said here >>97927811, I think ToaIR is the gold standard for a "modern sandbox" and that's heavily reliant on the GM building roads for routes the PCs want to travel.
>>97927929Just lie and hope no one notices lol
>>97927696>If you're just randomly generating dungeons and random encounters every weekagain not OP effort anon herewho told you a sandbox is just randomly generating dungeons and encounters?
>>97927800>players choosing what they want to do>game stops being a sandboxwhere the fuck are you getting this?
>>97927929I disagree that sandboxes are only viable in "primitive" systems. My point is more that monsters and opponents have become much more complex to build and deploy and sandboxes need them to be quickly built and deployed. A "modern" system designed for sandbox campaigns would have much simpler rules for quick generation of opponents rather than the complex rules that most popular modern systems use.
>>97928074Oh! Like uhh, Shadow of the Weird Wizard? I ran the “Rage of the Goblin King” adventures for my friends and I was blown away how quick and intuitive the dungeon/encounter generation is. Sorry for putting the blinders on and thinking only in DnD, you’re absolutely right that “modern” systems can be made for sandbox.
>>97927997The kind of people that make retarded posts like OP are the ones telling /tg/ that.And they’re also the ones who basically refuse to actually discuss sandbox games beyond making smug loser quips and trolling because they’re allowed to. Look at this very thread.
>>97928122No, no one has ever told you that. Quote a specific post or admit that you lied.
>>97927000I don't the skill either. I just let my words and their heads fill in the empty spaces.
>>97927764And all those posts were made as soon as the timer allowed.He's really desperate.
>>97928122if you know this why engage with such posters?why not instead engage with effort posters who are also present in the thread?(you) are the problem anonstop feeding>>97928368lmao it do be leik that
>>97923437
>>97928368concession accepted.
>>97928463cause he's a seething railcuck lmao
>>97928463Cause I just want to call OP a retard, frankly. >>97927811 said almost everything worth saying on the subject , frankly, anything I’d have to say would be redundant beyond relaying my own poor experiences with trying pure sandbox games. Imo most don’t work out because they end up as aimless affairs, and most tables I’ve played at have players who prefer to have a unified goal with few reasonable restrictions on how to reach it. After all, they don’t have all the time in the world to play and the session can only run so long, so they’d like to inch closer to their goal every session even if they take some time to joke around about something pointless for ten minutes or so.But that’s been my experience. Also, OP is a seething cuck.
>>97925791This will just replace solo-play people, like >>97925798 said. The only difference in our interpretations of the future on that is that as that type of solo-play gets better as the AI DM's capabilities increases, more and more people will probably find out they like solo-play stuff. But, for the majority of people who enjoy TTRPGs, it is a screen-off, social activity, so that will not affect the driving force of the hobby.
>>97928992(you)'d wrong guy, whoops.
>>97923437>You just tell the GM what you wanna do next session, and the story is all up to you.If you tell me what you want to do next session I am going to indulge you but be ready for some serious monkey paw shit to happen.
>>97924435That's the trouble with a sandbox: It's wide but not deep. You are not going to be playing a grand fantasy narrative, but rather a fantasy slice of life. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, unless the players are trying to expect the GM to do both at the same time which is not going to happen.
Far too many people think a sandbox just means you bump between random encounters until you get bored. Don't you create factions in your setting that have goals and take actions to achieve them? That's where plots should come from, and the campaign is the story of how the players learn of the world around them and how they choose to interact with it.For example I've been running a Star Wars game set right after Episode 6. Initially the players were a grab bag of mercenaries and colonists just trying to find work and survive in a galaxy gone mad.They took missions from criminal syndicates, the empire, local planetary governments, wealthy corrupt politicians, the rebels, each other, etc. Eventually after about 30 or so sessions of exploring the galaxy and seeing what it had to offer they decided on their own to join the rebellion.From that point onward I prepared a rebel campaign. I threw hooks at them of intelligence on the empire, battles they may want to join, and of course anything from their past they had yet to resolve. They made a lot of enemies in those 20 sessions, including the entire Pyke Syndicate!Of course I have a rough idea of how each session may progress but they commonly circumvent my plans with their own, which causes me to change how things work out. But on a larger scale every ignored hook resolved itself "off screen" and changed the setting in a way that may impact them.For example I gave them the hook of a treasure map, but they never took it. So later a great pirate found the treasure and became very wealthy, causing an increase in pirates across the galaxy that he funded. The players fought one of these pirates and knew that the setting changed as much from their inaction as it did their action.Originally I did have a BBEG and everything but they always ignored the hooks related to him. I've had a lot more fun this way just seeing where they go next. Their goal is to destroy the Empire of course, I'll see if they can.
>>97923437And then there's no game because playoids can't think for themselves and won't do anything without the GM's "railroading" them to some village with a kidnapped child yet again.
>>97929244Wide and deep.
>>97929470Nah.
>>97927811>I've never understood this thing so I'll decide my bad interpretations of it are what it is You and many other's next complaint will be>well then explain it for real! but you're clearly incapable of getting over your own preconceived notions, its pointless. You can[t even get to >well, its not a thing I get but that's okay, other people can do a thing which removes the possibility of you having reasonable conversations.
>>97929504Maybe you should provide some examples of play to explain the “right way” to do it then
>>97929482>Wide and deep.You can try, but if you write up a nuanced plot the players are going to skirt around it more often than not. You will also have a hard time relying on worldbuilding because then you'll end up doing one of several things:1) Explaining to your group that what they are doing is retarded.2) Trying to tardwrangle them into not being retarded.3) Allowing them to be retarded and bending the world around them.Each option sucks for you or for your players in varying ways. If you railroad them they'll get annoyed and won't want to play. If you let them do whatever they want you might as well have a chatbot do your job.
>>97929517>reads the post >still responds in the predicted way lol you're hopeless
>>97929566>won’t because he can’t because he doesn’t play games and lies about it on the internet for reddit goldGot it.
>>97929596nou
>>97929380This seems like the exact sort thing that this anon >>97926574 was talking about. Where a sandbox starts out with a lot of freedom, but eventually the players get bored of just doing random jobs, and so they either create a big objective for themselves or they join a major faction that already has a clear objective, and then the remainder of the campaign is 'about' that thing.Very few players are the type who want to just be an aimless wanderer forever. Which is why you get the people who realize that instead of making an entire sandbox for the players to dick around in for 30 sessions, they can just ask everyone which faction they like the most before the game begins, and then you're just playing a Rebel Alliance campaign.The disconnect is when you have some people who praise sandboxes say that the PCs being Rebels makes the game a railroad (even if the players all agreed to the starting premise), and that a sandbox game requires little to no work or prep to get started. That's what causes the misconception that spending time fleshing out the details of a setting or the PCs joining a faction causes the game to cease to be a sandbox.
>>97928122Why aren't you "actually discussing" sandboxes then? There's lots of good posts in this thread about the topic, and the other half dozen threads made about the same topic. If they work so well, why the fuck can't you faggots actually articulate how and why?
>>97928014>>97927874>players are dropped into a world and given various hooks to chase>they latch onto one>GM now starts almost exclusively preparing material built around that hook>Players see that through to the end, either as a long-form campaign, or as a shorter series of adventures>afterwords, if play continues, the process starts over. At a certain point, the story is self-perpetuating and now based entirely on the whims of the players. Even if you truly believe a 100% player driven game is possible, you will eventually stumble your way into a game where the GM is directing the story. The players are not in charge. They do not decide what NPCs do or what events happen. They don't direct the monsters, the factions, the kingdoms, or anything else. Just because there's not a railroad plot laid beneath their feet does not mean they are in control.
>>97929659NTA, but I think the best function of a sandbox is to just let new tabletop players find out what they want to do in the first place. You set them up in a world where they're not particularly special, let them dick around and face consequences for their dickery, and then find a niche in that world that they find interesting. It makes a good way to feel out what a group of people want to do long-term, but as a one-off its utility and narrative potential is less than good.
>>97929659I did. But if you did genuinely want my opinion rather than just bitch me out for lack of effort (which, fair cop if that were the case), I think most people like the idea of a sandbox more than the execution of it. Most of the “ideal” sandboxes described by no-games resemble Skyrim more than an actual ttrpg, and most actual instances of honest attempts I’ve seen described are basically most computer rpgs that ignore the supposed big overarching plot in favor of doing the side quests and advancing the small factions’ dotting the area to see how their influence actually affects the world in a tangible way.So I don’t think there is much else I can add. I’m bad at articulating my thoughts for topics like these.
>>97929555I can try and succeed, and I do, frequently.
>>97929600Who told you that a sandbox is aimless wandering?Why is your imagination so poor?Real life doesn't have a goal other than those you set for yourself. Do you spend all day in real life aimlessly wandering? (If you post a flippantly sarcastic response to this last question, you automatically concede the point.)
>>97929659Do you think your betters feel some pressing need to explain themselves to petulant, dishonest trolls such as yourself? You aren't interested in a discussion. DO NOT pretend otherwise. You aren't subtle or clever in the least.
>>97929600>Very few players are the type who want to just be an aimless wanderer forever.Which is why you get the people who realize that instead of making an entire sandbox for the players to dick around in for 30 sessions, they can just ask everyone which faction they like the most before the game begins, and then you're just playing a Rebel Alliance campaign.That is one possibility. Another underutilized one is building and managing a stronghold in that sandbox. So many players try to play sandboxes as if they were open world videgames like the Elder Scroll and Fallout series. They wander around the world for a while looking at points of interest, gradually get board and then start looking for the "main story" to progress at which point the game shifts from sandbox to adventure path.To actually do a sandbox well you need the players to first explore the sandbox and then build or claim a base of operations that they can then expanding from. Once they have claimed and developed the entire sandbox that is when the sandbox campaign ends.
>>97929766Look man, your standards aren't my standards. If whatever you're doing works for you and your group then that's great. I'm not going to go on a tirade telling you how to facilitate fun.
>>97929752Yeah this is about where I land after skimming these threads. I can't help but feel that these sandbox threads are largely made by dumb cunts who think they can play GTA in a RPG, but don't actually know enough about RPGs to understand that 100% player directed games don't actually work. Even if they still requires that the GM either painstakingly model and simulate an entire living world, or spontaneously generate a living world that organically interacts with itself on the fly. Anything less, like the GM preparing a loose adventure ahead of time, is railroading, which they've decided is the worst kind of play and inferior to their imaginary ideal of an open world vidya in pen and paper form.
>>97929788You seem upset and unable to articulate any substantial thoughts on the subject that you claim to have such strong opinions about.
>>97929695The players create monsters, factions, kingdoms, and far more.
>>97929804Correct. My standards for fun are far higher than yours, and my games are better than your games, and my players are more intelligent, more attractive, more creative, funnier, and more charismatic than your players.
>>97929814You can play GTA in an RPG, and 100% player directed games work.
>>97929824Personally I think you're just a low effort troll, but whatever floats your boat.
>>97929820>>97929828Is this what passes as witty and clever in your third world country?
>>97929845That's ironic, coming from you.
>>97929846Even more ironic. lol
>>97929846It's some kind of brain damaged tourist that thinks it's going to ragebait with vagueness and vanity.
>>97929864Yep, that's you.
>>97929600>Which is why you get the people who realize that instead of making an entire sandbox for the players to dick around in for 30 sessions, they can just ask everyone which faction they like the most before the game begins, and then you're just playing a Rebel Alliance campaign.You don't need to "make" an entire sandbox, it takes the same amount of work as a railroad. Instead of fleshing out the culinary taste of your favorite NPCs spend that time fleshing out extra plots and factions. The opening phase of the campaign was really fun, with many players still looking on it fondly and hoping they can break away and roam a bit.There was a large stint of the campaign where they got kicked out of the rebellion. They spent a long time trying to redeem themselves but the sandbox design once again was very helpful. There was a long list of different people they could go to for help and work for if they needed to. There is no linear, pre-planned list of events in a sandbox game.Hell, even though they joined the rebellion and made that their main goal "how" they pursued the goal still varied wildly. I gave them many different war fronts to look into each with its own unique character. The Empire after episode 6 fractures into many warlords after all.Just because a Major faction is chosen doesn't mean the sandbox disappears. All those places and people are still around, it's a living setting. Something they are wary of is the growing influence of the criminal syndicates. They regularly find time to sneak off and beat up the Pykes before rejoining the war.Even a war campaign, which could easily become a railroad as you fight mission to mission, can be a sandbox. You just need to respect player initiative and wishes, it isn't hard.
>>97929874I think I'm starting to see the problem here. You are presenting something that is, in my experience at least, a fairly normal game. Which is something that is a some sandbox, an occasional short railroad, and a dash or improv and random tables when needed. It's actually extremely common for players to choose how they approach a problem and who they can talk to. Even in modules and pre-written adventures, which are most likely to be railroad-heavy, there is usually built in breathing room where players can pick different paths and approaches, choose not to pursue things, or divert themselves to optional adventures.
>>97929780Yes, you have to remember that no every player is the type to set a clear goal for himself. Also, the issue with sandbox is that many events are unconnected and are just "random shit that happens" that's fine in real life but is less rewarding than "everything we do put us closer to our collective goal" in a game.
>>97930197If you haven't created goals, you're not done creating your character.
>>97929780>Why is your imagination so poor?Holy shit. God dammit. You're bothering me even if I can see your points. Stop treating tabletop gaming like it's some sort of collab imagination session where you input commands to the wetware GM and he spits out a fully-fleshed encounter. This is how people daydream what tabletop is about. This is how people fantasize about tabletop. This is not the reality of tabletop. As someone who's sat on both sides of the table, game prep requires a very rigorous understanding of where and what the PCs are doing. This can't be done in any sort of satisfying way without at least some minutes dedicated to thinking on the matter.Let me give you an example of what true sandbox, at least how I envision it, works. Take "Tales of an Industrious Rogue." Again, I consider this the gold standard for what tabletop sandbox actually entails; the PCs were tasked with eliminating some nasties in a dungeon and, after doing so, discover a stable portal to the demiplane of salt. Rather than destroy the portal and go on their way, the Players looked up how much a bag of salt is worth, and realized they could make a business harvesting the salt and selling it. The GM rolls with this, and quietly shelves whatever plot they had planned after the dungeon to focus on writing up merchant companies, saboteurs, wandering monsters and employee issues that could come up with their new business. The PCs even get into the business of selling dreams, after the GM randomly rolls a Night Hag embedding itself among the staff. That is sandbox. That is collaboration. It's a story from over a decade ago and it still rings true to my old grognardian ears. The Players get an idea, and the GM realizes it.
>>97930200Most people just want to sit and play, and a simple task like "you guys go and kill that thing, you'll get pay" is sometimes more satisfying than "here's an entire map, here's a bunch of information about the nearest locations on said map, c'mon, go and do something now". Sure, it depends, but in my decades of experience, the type of player exclusively for that second style of play is a very particular one nd not the norm.
>>97930232It is a collaborative imagination session.
>>97930237Playing the game is setting goals and making decisions in the service of those goals. If you don't want to play, don't show up. You will receive no further replies.
>>97930247I mean, they wont show up to you sandbox. They will surely show up to my small campaign with a clear finish line.
>finish lineEmbarrassing, for you.
>>97929874>There is no linear, pre-planned list of events in a sandbox game.Gygax is rolling in his grave. If you're asking for a sandbox then the world should continue to move without player input. That is how time works, or as Gygax called it, time management. More specifically, you're describing a hex crawl; the PCs are masters of their own business, but every action they take causes the clock to tick just a little closer to riches or ruin. As somebody that's ran a Hexcrawl before, you kinda have to roll (or outright fabricate) events ahead of time simply to have them on-hand during session. Sure, I might not know where the PCs want to go that day, but I do know in three weeks the Emperor is going to die and cause a succession crisis.
>>97926924I will if you're going to cook what no one wants to eat. What makes you think you're fit to DM at that point. Get out of the kitchen.
>>97927811TL;DR you should just check this anon's post instead of replying to me.>>97927081
So then the customer steals their idea, franchises it and copyrights it while suing them so they can't keep their freeform GM system right?
>>97929874>it takes the same amount of work as a railroadit actually takes significantly less, it's one of the benefits of sandbox play
>>97927696It's the only thing that works long term. Railroading will inevitably be more sequels of railroading, whereas the sandbox remains consistent throughout. What happens when a railroad adventure ends, you put in a massive prep to form the next one, and railroad the players into and through it all over again. Railroading is a failure state of RPGs. Some DMs are just so bad at the practice that they rely on these training wheels forever.
>>97930534Spoken like someone who doesn't play, let alone run, any games at all.
>>97929780>Who told you that a sandbox is aimless wandering?I just said it wasn't. Pay attention.
>>97930501Jesus, man. That’s a little sharp? What are you cooking, then? What’s anon going to prepare for his players.
>>97930536Not him, but it feels like this entire thread has been people either describing the *fantasy* of TTRPGs or their belief that GMs exist as unfeeling robots who must cater to their every demand.
>>97930564Or otherwise screwing around taking what they think sandbox games are like it while never actually describing those games, outside of a coupe lost souls who actually answered sincerely.
>>97929874>Just because a Major faction is chosen doesn't mean the sandbox disappears.And likewise, just because the campaign starts with the premise that the PCs are working with a major faction doesn't make the game a railroad. That's the part of the pro-sandbox argument that gets retarded, where people like you can perfectly understand that giving the players a string of specific missions to complete still qualifies as a sandbox seemingly act all confused when somebody states that they are running neither a railroad nor a sandbox.
>>97930523>>97930534That's only because you don't even know what railroad is. If you start in A and you need to go to point B but you're free to get there in whatever way you want is not a railroad.
>>97923700but Keatons charecter doesn't even own McDonald's at this point, this is his first interaction with it.
>>97930277Gygax didn't have any special knowledge about game design or fun. No one cares what he thinks of their games. He's not important or interesting.
>>97930564If you're just doing whatever you want during the campaigns as an individual, then you are dog ass at DMing.
>>97930607I don’t know about that, I’ve got players who bring their friends to session because they think I’m one of the good ones. I’m just not interested in putting in tons of work realizing a dozen plot hooks that might never be bitten. I’ve got a job, chores and a house to maintain.
>>97930552Whatever they're in the mood for, I am a 5 star restaurant.
>>97930581Pot calling the kettle black
>>97930613no players no friends lol
>>97930606Literally one of the two most pivotal figures in RPG history.
>>97930623Yeah, because tasteless retards like you worship him for no reason. Retard.
>>97930613>I’m just not interested in putting in tons of work realizing a dozen plot hooks that might never be bitten.Feels ironic if you're actually a railroading DM, that requires way too much effort to keep everything on the tracks.
>>97930626>For no reasonis it summer already
>>97930632Yeah, for no reason. Dumbfuck. I'm older than you btw.
>>97930083At no point is there a railroad, you keep inserting that as a definite thing despite me never saying it. The players are always free to pursue a solution to a problem how they want. I never invent fake obstacles to force a certain direction, nor do I copy and paste things that were avoided.>>97930277I do plenty of time keeping, there are many events and scenarios that occur at a time when I plan them to. The only caveat being if the players caused some change that would make preplanned events no longer make sense. How the players solve a problem, and if they consider it theirs to solve is always up to them.>>97930523This is true, the more you flesh out the people and places, and less the events, the easier prep becomes>>97930579
>>97930622Pic related is the map for next session, the PCs are on their way to eradicate an Ankheg Hive and need to pass through a dangerous canyon. There are Workers keeping lookout, and if the PCs don't eliminate them quickly or quietly than they'll get attacked by Ankheg Warriors (the tokens shaded, on the GM Layer.) I'm pretty happy for this one because it gives PCs an excuse to play around with verticality, and killing monsters in ways they might normally not get the chance to.After that, they're heading to the Hive Entrance, where they'll be attacked by several Ankheg Warriors and a Hive Guard (reskinned Chuul with pheromonal rage ability taken from the Hive Mother) I plan to let the PCs know that if they carefully extract the pheromone sacks, they'll be able to enter the Hive without alerting the swarm - like Freeman in HL-2 with the antlion sacks. I'm going to post the Hive itself because I'm really proud of that one.
>>97930647The Hive is large, claustrophobic and illuminated purely through bioluminescent fungus. I'm quite proud of the effort I put into giving the glowing mushrooms their own light sources. I haven't actually added any monsters to the map because I doubt my players will get to this map before session end (we only run for 4 hours every Friday.)
>>97930689>>97930647Anyway, last post I'm making. I was going to include this in the Hive post but I was having trouble comfortably splicing the two images together. Oh well! This is what the map looks like with 100% Darkness enabled - aka, it's illuminated purely by light sources. I'm very happy with this, I've got some ambient music to set the mood.
>>97930647nice fake game kek
>op is STILL mad he lost an argument online
>>97930647>>97930689>>97930698Cool stuff Anon. What system are you playing?
>>97930689>>97930698It does look very atmospheric.
>>97930755>What system are you playing?Pathfinder 2e, though in a custom setting based around the 7th century Byzantine Empire immediately after a devastating war against the Sassanid equivalent. The PCs are operating in what is effectively Antioch and have just finished reporting to the Aghias Makarion, a monastery in the style of Meteora which beseeched them to quell the Ankheg infestation. The campaign name is "There Will Come Soft Rains," after the poem written immediately after World War 1 where life will continue even if an apocalypse destroyed Humanity.
>>97930749you lost :)
>>97930755>>97930765>>97930780REPLYING TO HIMSELF LMAOOOO
It's been a month of you seething.A whole goddamn month.Just because you got btfo on 4chan.What a sad life.
Feels good to be a sandbox CHAD
>>97923437>"But I don't know how to cook! I've never done it before, all I've ever done is eat other people's food and took it for granted! Oh this food is sandy, much too handy for me. Here OP, make a pearl."
>>97930816you're the one seething loser :)
>>97930793No...
You already made this thread.
>>97931032Yep :)
>>97931087And honestly has made me think lesser of sandbox games with how much people have spammed threads about them with nothing intelligent to say
>>97931101>>97931087cope :)
When this faggot inevitably makes another thread, I want the whole lot of you to drill this pattern into your head.>(You) engage with good faith, experience, and insight about TTRPGs that challenges this faggot's obnoxious routine>Others chime in and agree, add their two cents, discuss the matter, call into question this repeated spam>retarded faggot responds to as many posts as possible with low effort, one sentence NUH UH posts.>repeat until thread hits bump limit>new thread is made
>>97931137What makes you think it's the same anon. I believe that there's several anons on this board who think sandbox to be pure D&D, and then there's just the one word replier who flocks to the threads.
>>97931148I don't doubt that some anons have strong opinions on sandboxes and I'm not talking about them. The people making actual posts and actually talking to each other aren't the problem, even if there is a fundamental disagreement caused by a lack of understanding. The rest of this shit, like the dozen posts directly above this one, are retarded shitspam that only exists to stir up more bickering to keep this pathetic board from going completely stagnant.
>>97931137You didn't engage in good faith, you have no experience and no insight. Everything you said was wrong, and everything I said was right. I'm more attractive and popular than you.
>>97931203>NUH UHRethink your life, retard.
>>97931204Ironic.
>>97925791You misunderstand what AI is. It's just regurgitating what you want to hear back at you. It is incapable of creating original content or thoughts, and it is incapable of true randomness. It's literally a yes-man machine that does only what it is told and always seeks to benefit the person feeding it information.
>>97930780I see. Have you modified PF2e's base rules to accommodate this in any way? Like are you going balls to the wall autistic historical accuracy and cutting out plate armour and rapiers, or is the 7th century just a baseline for the inspiration and there's still all the usual goodies you can find in the books?>life will continue even if an apocalypse destroyed humanityAnon... are you preparing to spring an apocalypse on your players?
>>97931576>Have you modified PF2e's base rules to accommodate this in any way? Like are you going balls to the wall autistic historical accuracy and cutting out plate armour and rapiers, or is the 7th century just a baseline for the inspiration and there's still all the usual goodies you can find in the books?Baseline for the inspiration. I haven't modified anything, but the players modified themselves to better reflect the lore. I wrote a whole compendium on Galamethe and the Samothraki hinterlands (Antioch and Syrian Interior respectively) so they feel comfortable with it. >Anon... are you preparing to spring an apocalypse on your players?Magic is very new in the setting; it came about 250 years ago with the birth of a star called Revelation, and was responsible for the collapse of the Pythian Dominate (The Roman Empire analogue.) Monsters flowed into the world, and things were shit for 20-30 years. Most modern religions came about at this point, as divinity seems also directly correlated with Revelation. I could gab and goof about the details, but the big baddies are a Cabal drawn from all echelons of society unified in the belief that magic has done nothing but harm the world, and they're thus out to Kill God. So yes, I'm eager to spring an apocalypse on my players. Did I mention that Necromancy has not been invented yet? I want it to be a critical moment in the plot where the PCs witness the creation of the "first" undead. I used quotations because the "first" undead was already made, an ancient Pharaoh that ripped himself out of the waking dream of the afterlife known as Amon, though the Cabal knows him as the Twice-Dead King. He has no interest in killing god, he simply wants to "bleach" god so spirits can freely pass between the spirit world and reality.Here's the map I made of the setting, btw.
>>97930780Oh yea, I remember you posting about it a few months ago.Glad to see the campaign's launched.
