It's been 15 years, can we finally admit that Codex Grey Knights was a huge miss-step?
>>97952641Not only will I admit "Codex Grey Knights" was a huge misstep, but I'll go further to admit that the entirety of every product GW has ever produced was a huge misstep since the inception of each one.
>>97953517Daring today, aren't we?
The worst thing was the subhumans who defended Ward for bringing back mindwiping because it was "le old fluff"
>>97953603Nobody likes your worthless slop any more, Games Workshop, and everyone with a functioning brain never bothered to buy it in the first place.
>>97953603Thanks Squidward.
The Kelly SWolf dex was 5th too wasn't it? What a time.
>>97952641Nobody of taste and refinement ever thought anything else.Grey Knights should have remained a single unit of Terminators only available as Allies to other Imperial armies and then only using the kind of rules that were in the prior Daemonhunters codex that gave them a reason to be present by giving your opponent daemonic units. Sisters of Silence and Custodes should have been the same with psykers and a powerful character enemy respectively(each representing a threat to the Emperor or His Plans in some fashion).Also Matt Ward should have been beaten to death and crucified on the Space Marine statue outside GWHQ as a warning to all who came after to not be a massive faggot when writing fluff.
I genuinely think the baby carrier deserves a second chance with a new model, the concept behind it is really cool and I want to see if modern day GW is capable of doing it justice without all the terrible awkwardness of the original. Give it to the Forge World team if they have to, they have a pretty good track record with complex walker kits.
It was a key indicator of when 40k went from "older British stalwarts with interests in history and other sci-fi/fantasy settings and a good pinch of absurd humour" to "GW hired people who are now 40k fanboys who can do nothing but self-reference 40k and at worst have their own favourite characters they want to see as the best, or even vendettas"
gw hasnt been able to do a baby carrier mech for decades until they made the Votann exo suits. Finally after years of trying they succeeded
>>97956663They're called Paragon Warsuits and they still look retarded.
>>97956663Baby carrier, no.Giant mech to fight greater daemons 1 on 1, yes.The Nemesis Dreadknight is a cool concept that was utterly bungled in execution. There's no reason for the pilot to be visible at all, much less suspended from the front completely outside all of the protective elements. Saturnine Dreadnoughts are a common conversion and not only do they look way better, but they're also a much more reasonable design for what the Dreadknight is trying to accomplish. >>97956680Codex Daemonhunters was complete ass on the tabletop but remains my favourite codex of all time just for the vibes. The current state of Inquisitorial armies is a travesty and I miss Daemonhosts being cool, even if they were unplayably bad.
>>97956980>There's no reason for the pilot to be visible at all, much less suspended from the front completely outside all of the protective elements.Because it was really cool in Aliens and Matrix, that's the reason.
>>97956980>>97956980>Codex Daemonhunters was complete ass on the tabletop but remains my favourite codex of all time just for the vibes. The current state of Inquisitorial armies is a travesty and I miss Daemonhosts being cool, even if they were unplayably bad.3rd ed Inquisition Codexes were the finest ever published. Such a pity we never got Alien Hunters with Sanctioned Xenos and crazy ass DW killteams.
>>97956980>There's no reason for the pilot to be visible at all, much less suspended from the front completely outside all of the protective elements.The reason is it was 5th edition. If the pilot was enclosed it would be a walker (because it fuckin is), and the walker rules sucked dick. Can't sell 3 per player like that. With it all exposed as a suit it has the thinnest justification to be a monstrous creature instead, and those were way the fuck better than any walker at the time. Dreadknights were officially sanctioned modeling for advantage, and that's why they look stupid.
>>97956980>Codex Daemonhunters was complete ass on the tabletopWhy?
>>97957765The walker vs. monstrous creature classification was always incredibly arbitrary anyway, the Wraithlord is a walker by every technical definition you can throw at it (large bipedal 100% mechanical construct with an enclosed pilot) but somebody decided it was a monstrous creature for whatever reason. IIRC the Tau were getting some battlesuits that were definitely at least as large as dreadnoughts around the same time and while I can't remember whether or not they were MCs they sure as hell weren't walkers despite being the textbook definition of one in every way.
Codex: Space Monkeys was a perfectly good codex but the one after, the one that introduced the abomination in the OP, was the death knell of the Grey Knights
>>97958342NTA, but everything was overpriced. Grey Knights had a shitload of cool gear and special rules, but none that made them more durable. They died just as easy as any other tac/termie squad. They paid a premium for the anti-daemon stuff, which was really good against units nobody ran. This compounded per unit taken, and this was during the kill points days where you had to run units lean and killy or they'd bleed kill points and cause a loss. >>97958696The Riptide was also a monstrous creature for basically no reason. I blame the oval base making facing a nightmare (easy fix, make base round), there's no reason Riptide punches ignored armor and I say that as a Tau player. The only reason I can see is so it could fire all of its guns, which walkers could also do.>somebody decided it was a monstrous creature for whatever reason.It was Phil Kelly and it's because he played them. Wraithlords are "alive" in a necromancy kind of way, which is lame reasoning. It also made them impossible to 1-shot because you couldn't "Instant Death!" them outside of force weapons because lol T8. Force weapons which were S4 and couldn't would T8.I honestly think most of it was to prevent them from getting one tapped by antitank, instead you had to shoot a wraithlord a minimum of four times to put it down, and it functioned at 100% until it died. Can't lose weapons, can't be immobilized, can't get shaken/stunned, very privileged unit type.
>>97952641Custodes and Grey Knights should have never been armies.
>>97956980I'm so glad I got one of those before Ikarus got got.
>>97958983>Wraithlords are "alive" in a necromancy kind of way, which is lame reasoning.I wonder if Phil or anyone else involved in writing and/or playtesting ever experimented with making Wraithlords walkers but representing their ghost pilots by making them ignore stunned/shaken results, of if he just skipped straight to monstrous creature status. Might be interesting to play around with if I ever manage to get regular enough games of older editions going.>>97959364I saw some posts that seemed to be implying that he's still selling the stuff that got copyright nuked under the table if you contact him directly but I haven't investigated any further.
>>97952641Both Deathwatch Kill teams and Grey Knights terminators should’ve been fun stop gap units to help shore up imperial lists on the board. Maybe add the option for dreads and a transport. Whole lists made them feel contrived and… strange.
>>97957505It was a cargo loader not a purpose built war machine. It was what she had not what was most effective.
>>97959127Death Watch as well tbf.They really should roll Imperial Agents, Grey Knights and Deathwatch into Codex: Inquisition and just make them special unit types you can select if you have a Malleus or Xenos inquisitor.Still perfectly canon, doesn't invalidate lore or models and lets arguably the actual most important/powerful faction in the Imperium of Man have their own army.
>>97952641The one and only lasting damage that codex did was the Dreadknight.Paladins, purifiers and warp pack interceptors were all great ideas that added a lot more depth to the Grey Knights line-up without being stupid.The storm raven looks stupid but served a genuine purpose in game, and just needs an extension kit to make look good (everyone forgets Grey Knights got it first, vanilla marines only got it years later)The fluff that people actually liked from the Ward codex stayed, like Grey Knights being more autonomous from the Ordo Malleus. The fluff people got assblastedly mad over got retconned, like killing the Sisters for their blessed blood.The sole negative mark left from that codex is the dumb, stupid dreadknight. It doesn't even make sense from a use perspective, it does what a dreadnought should be doing. The best dreadknight conversions have all been suped up dreadnoughts, they should just make this canon.There's no reason the Grey Knights of all chapters wouldn't have access to Contemptors and Leviathans, or even a few Saturnines.You could split the Dreadknight into a few different chassis that do different things.
>>97958342It was an army of terminators with power weapons (daemon hammers were character/sergeants only)regular power armor grey knights were WS5 tacticals with storm bolters and true grit (So they got 2 attacks, but no charge bonus) but did not have power weapons (except the sergeant)Psycannons were ok but fast attack grey knights were identical to troops, except they could deep strike. Heavy support grey knights were the same but could take 4 heavy/special weapons instead of 1.The only tanks they could take were land raiders, rhinos and razorbacks. No predators, no flyers.They had no generic characters except a brother captain and grandmaster. No librarians, no chaplains, no champions, nothing. (Granted, grandmasters were halfway to being a librarian)You did get to take inquisitors and stormtroopers with rhinos/chimeras/valkyries (Forgeworld only back then, baby!) to fill in gaps, and even back then stormtroopers could have 4 plasma guns shooting out of the top of a rhino so they were pretty usefulBut overall it was a very anemic army that was clearly meant to be used with the ally rules, kind of like Agents today. The idea was much more about adding a squad of grey knights and an inquisitor to your space marine or imperial guard army.If you ran into enemy vehicles or non-daemonic monsters as a pure Grey Knights army, you had to hope your one land raider, dreadnought or your handful of daemon hammers in the army could take care of it, because everyone else would be swinging at S6 tops unless you used Hammerhand.It is still one of THE MOST soulful and customizable codexes ever made, and I dearly love the copy of it I still keep on my shelf.
>>97952641It's been 15 years, can we have in-depth discussion about a game other than Warhammer?
>>97960026We cannot.
Should be an Army, and Is:>Space Marines>Chaos Space Marines>Imperial Guard>Eldar>Dark Eldar>Orks>Necrons>TyranidsJustifies Existing:>Adepta Sororitas>Adeptus Mechanicus>TauCould be Cut without Losing Anything>Dark Angels>Space Wolves>Blood Angels>World Eaters>Death Guard>Thousand Sons>Leagues of VotannShould just be Detachments for Other Armies or Lore Things:>Adeptus Custodes>Grey Knights>Deathwatch>Chaos Daemons>Imperial/Chaos Knights>Genestealer Cults>Imperial Agents>Eldar Corsairs>Eldar HarlequinsShould not exist, and Doesn't:>Dark Mechanicus>Traitor GuardThings that could be added reasonably:>Emperor's Children
>>97960124I was with you until you name dropped at that end. Most armies should probably just be individual units for or just subfactions of a larger group probably should be. Including all the cult marines.
>>97960026You're on the warhammer board, bub
>>97960386that's just nonsense warhammer fans made up because they have an inflated sense of self importance. Like half the things warhammer fans say about warhammer is false.
>>97960026/hwg/ is dead and for the last 12 hours or more /awg/ has been nothing but intellectually dishonest retards and their enablers arguing over dumb shit, so instead of bitching how about you take some personal responsibility and actually start and contribute to non-GW conversations you useless hypocrite lump of shit
>>97960124>Could be Cut without Losing AnythingBut what about my wolf warriors riding on wolf bikes wielding mastercrafted wolf axes and shooting wolf cannons while lead by their wolf leader
>>97960124There should definitely be a Lost and the Damned army covering all the ragged hordes of Chaos that aren’t CSM.
>>97960124>Justifies Existing:>>Adepta Sororitasno, they're the biggest frauds in the fanbase, everyone pretends they matter but no one knows shit about their lore aside from existingthey are better off as being part of an inquisition faction
>>97960124This: >>97960935The disparate chaos aligned forces that collectively form from Dark Mechanicus, Traitor Guard, Chaos Daemons, etc. should have a list. Having all of it bundled under CSM is just GW being lazy especially now that the Mechanicus is an army in their own right.
>>97956662how you gonna crucify him if he's not on a cross? idiotyou're talking about astarting him you fucking chump
>>97958342Imagine if Grey Knights were 25pts per model, had no AP on their melee weapons, and the heaviest weapon they could carry was a S6 Heavy Bolter.Stormtroopers were absolutely essential for the army to function, along with some inducted Guard squads for firepower. But the Knights themselves were horribly expensive and extremely inflexible. >>97959722> daemon hammers were character/sergeants onlyOne of the most-missed options in the book was that Terminators could swap their wargear out for Thunder Hammers and Stormshields. But it still didn't fix the shooting obviously.
>>97959609It's not about what's most effective, it's about what's coolest.
>>97962944Using an improvised cargo loader is cool.Having "improvised cargo loader" as an actual vehicle of war looks retardedImagine if GW saw a movie with the classic "spray can+lighter = improvised flamethrower" and decided to have a gray knight unit holding a spray can and a lighter
>>97952641Not at all.It was a return to old GW lists where granularity and details mattered, after 4e stripped all options from the game.It expanded on the lore, added units to make them a viable army on the table.Shit, one of their best lists was one that was absolutely in line with their classic lore in how they deployed.
Fortunately I haven't had to see a dreadknight in 10 years. The entire Grey knights fanbase nearly instantly transitioned to custodes once they became the biggest coolest most special most super guys.
