seems like the osr arguments aren't over yet. here's another thread for all of you to play in so you hopefully don't shit up actual threads.Previous thread:>>97932852
>>97954917The "martial" vs caster debate has been going on for over 20 years, and not for lack of trying.You aren't going to curb anything by making a couple threads, but I admire your balls.
>>97954964thats uhh not why this thread exists. you are welcome to argue about that tho
>>97954971>seems like the osr arguments aren't over yet. here's another thread for all of you to play in so you hopefully don't shit up actual threads.>not meant to curb the OSR arguments...huh?
>>97955000have you seen the /osrg/ 2e debates?
WWN has great martials mechanics, he kind of fixed that issue for his games, feels great and is fun playing martials with those systems.
>>979550062e isnt /osrg/. Why would you bring it up?
>>97954917Hey nice, I made the first one and it actually seemed to help. >>97954964The first threads goal was to keep the troll arguments out of other threads. It worked and they argued in the thread that the damned argument was actually the topic of.It wasn't about stopping it, but moving those off topic arguments >>97955006 They they still throwing shit at each other in there?
>>97955238I have not played that one yet. But the without numbers stuff is soild
>>97954917>REEE STOOPID OSR TROLLS STOP RUINING MY THREADS ABOUT OSR DEFINITIONS BY ARGUING ABOUT OSR DEFINITIONSGenuinely retarded threads. Do (You) need (You)s that badly?
>>97955240The issue is we is OSR and the osrg was supposed to be a OSR thread. But seems it's not actually OSR, just 1e or BX
>>97955254
>>97955249>But the without numbers stuff is soildYes, if you had played any of the others, you know.For me, WWN had become the sweet spot for what I want and need in a fantasy ruleset, complex enough when needed, like domain and faction stuff, but streamlined enough if I just want to do simple dungeon crawling, not dumbed down like other OSR minimalist stuff, tho. And it is so modular, and so compatible with almost everything. I also appreciate the 2d6 skills check thing, very traveller, and the AAC. It also fixes many incongruousness in the economy, going for silver standard (you can convert most content into it with a simple /10 conversion)My son was asking me if melee was useful in it, because he plays CP2077 and he says melee martials are totally a waste of effort there. But in anything Without Number this is not an issue, I told him.
>>97955310I'm the newb anon getting into C&C from the other threadI have a very extensive and picky requirement list and every single time I ask LLMs for suggestions, the #1 is WWN, without fail.I think I'll have to check it out
>>97955329>picks C&C>uses LLMlol nice troll
>>97955334Eat a dick nigger
>>97955310I have played SWN and rip stuff out of it for my savage worlds game. The faction stuff and world gen is very useful. WWN I have but not gotten to read though yet.>>97955329Check out the O-S-RCHIVE from the PDF share thread. It's hot a ton of games worth looking though on it if you are into OSR stuff.
>>97955329>I think I'll have to check it outWell yes, you should man. Pick the free version and give it a try.I'm also saying it is a sweet spot because for me, it has all the modern stuff I want, with all the old-school stuff I need. I'm not going to lie, it is not as streamlined and rules-lite as shadowdark, but WWN is certainly way more balanced than Castles & Crusades while giving you options and not being overbearing. As an example, it always gives you the option to do things either in the OSR or NUSR way, like you can pick things by personalized by yourself, or just roll for them randomly; you can also ignore parts of it and the whole thing keeps working. In one podcast, Steve Winter from D&D fame told Crawford that his system is the Kalashnikov of ttrpg rulesets. If B/X or BECMI are the AK-47, Without Numbers stuff is the AK-74 family.
>>97955373>it is not as streamlined and rules-lite as shadowdarkAnd I'm not praising shadowdark, those rule-lite gimmicky ones aren't simply for me, I'm old. In my book, being rules-lite and streamlined is not good by itself.
>>97955341great rebuttal. youre a real gem.
>>97955347Indeed, and the thing is all WN mechanics are 95% the same, and very compatible, just tailored for each genre, but I have had characters from one rulebook playing in the other and just going back to the original when needed, for like when leveling up.For example, just from the top of my mind, WWN and SWN have classes, AWN and CWN don't have classes, they have edges, but when playing one with another these differences don't collide in the campaign.
>>97955256Wrong.OSR is not only AD&D (1e) and B/X, but also Holmes, BECMI, and their retroclones./osrg/ is about OD&D, AD&D (1e), B/X, Holmes, BECMI, and their retroclones.So they're the same thing.
Argue as much as you want, but I think everyone can agree that ACKS is the pinnacle of OSR-forward Gygaxian game design
>>97955329>I ask LLMs for suggestionslol you zoomers are fucked
>>97955006That (((debate)))) has been settled for over a decade. You're just seething because you lost it long before you were even old enough to post here.
>>97955583I am aware of how weird the osrg threads are.
>>97955593ACKS is great, but it can still be improved by streamlining it a bit, simplifying some mechanics, reducing and simplifying proficiencies, and so on. Also cleaves are nice, but individual initiative is a huge pain in the ass.But yeah, Macris has definitely made some very substantial headway, for the first time since the early 1980s arguably. It's very impressive.
>>97955606
>>97955601maybe for you it was settled but you have yet to prove the argument that 2e's, more permissive rules compared to 1e make it not osr given how they're mechanically identical and the other editions mentioned (BX, Holmes, and Becmi) also have more permissive rules compared to 1e, meaning you should be fine with some permissiveness.aand that ad hominem attack is irrelevent.
>/todd/ mork bort and shadowdank thread barely add up to one thread's autosage after days If you make this many public toilets eventually its all toilets everywhere all the time.
>>97955649Okay, kid. I'll bite.>Permissive RulesThe only thing more permissive about 2E is the lower reading level. I don't mean this as an insult either, it is an active improvement over Gary's coke-addled purple prose of 1E.
>>97955669thank you for your input. but how does this make it not osr? and my post was mostly a response to the argument that giving another option for XP other than gold made it not osr. Even if the xp system is usually minor depending on what your group wants and won't be a thing that gets the most attention compared to roleplay and combat.
>>97955697>Even if the xp system is usually minor depending on what your group wants>in osr lmao
>>97955697NTA but no XP for gold is the only argument they have, even if it's a bad one. They just don't have anything else
>>97955601>uhm, now excluding 2e from OSRG is a jewish conspiracy!nice new tactic, fishfag
>>97955626true I love ACKS but I hate individual initiative. it only works digital with good players. irl its a shitshow
>>97954917>here's another thread for all of you to play in so you hopefully don't shit up actual threads.Doesn't work. The /osrg/ has somehow gotten even worse since you started making these threads, and the trolls that hijacked it have been leaking everywhere with their weird propaganda.There's no way to contain them, and any time they're beaten in a debate, that just gets them fired up to shitpost ten times harder. Being humiliated is like some kind of viagra for them.Look how hard they're shitposting already in this thread.
>>97955772Nou
>>97955731OP is pro-2e, niglet, you're fucking retarded.
>>97955697OSR has been strictly defined by RELEASE DATE and COMMUNITY a decade before you ever even touched your first die.
>>97955782Yup.>>97933069
>>97955772I made the first thread, someone else made this one. Frankly don't care what the trolls do to the echo chamber. The point of the first thread was to let them fight and leave the other threads alone. And they did as they crave.
>>97955782OSR has always been about pre 3e games and game styles
>>97955870Nah gramps, it's about new exploration and getting away from all the problematic DND baggage.
>>97955857op here, kinda hoping for episode 3 desu. i enjoy this : )and im also happy todd isn't being screwed with.
>>97955782Under the first decade standards. i can discuss BE parts of BECMI, but not Rule Cyclopedia. Those rules are damned near Identical. Therefore we're treating two sets of near identical rules differently because one was released in 1991. This is absurd.
>>97955884Yeah, they can't stop themselves
>>97955881Nah son, mostly it's about rehashing old rules. When folks try to do something new ya get a bunch of trolls screaming how it's not OSR
>>97955870Welcome to the fishfag alternate history hour.
>>97955938Son, once more you need meds. Not everyone is one person. And y'all can try to create revisionist history all you want.Have you figured out the major mechanical differences between 1e and 2e yet? I know you struggle with that.
>>97955949Hi ya'll fishfag. This latest folksy posting attempt is very charming.
Reminder to the anons, these threads are purposefully made by the troll(s?) in /osrg/ who hijacked the OP in october of last year to gatekeep the thread and force his personal views upon the thread. They are made as an outlet/way of diverting people calling him out AWAY from the place it matters, the actual /osrg/, so he can go and say "look how healthy the thread is! I am right!"Go to the actual /osrg/ and complain/call him out there, where it hurts.>inb4 "the mods said"The mods told (you) to talk about the game, not the users. And you won't stop talking about users, and calling them your strawman.
/tg/ was bad before, but it went to total shit after the pdf hacks and being offline, when all those e-mails were exposed, nobody wanted to do moderation here anymore, the only thing we are left with is ignoring the trolls and only answering to meaningful threads and posts.
>>979559661: That was my thread and I do not post or view the osrg2: making a thread to talk about a set subject isn't trolling3: y'all are the ones who show up in every thread and post off topic trolling BS.
>>97955966Reminder to the anons that this is fishfag, the guy desperate to hijack /osrg to talk about off-topic games the general has chased out since it began. After spamming literally hundreds of hijack threads to try and take over the thread and having them all deleted or trolled into the ground, and running to the mods only to be told to fuck off, he now resorts to samefagging his merry way across the board with his fascinating totally 100% true he was there alt-history of the OSR, in the vain hope that suddenly everyone in /osrg will decide that he was right all along.Also, he's gay and this is a Wendys.
The Osrg is a weird place and I would leave em to the echo chamber. But they are the ones trying to revise history of the OSR movement. The OSR movement does not alone with the very strict and arbitrary ideology of the osrg. That is just reality.
LOL WotC is so desperate for money that they are already selling Moldvay B/X again, too little too late lmao.
>>97955779>OP is pro-2e, nigleteat my shit>>97955916>Under the first decade standards. i can discuss BE parts of BECMI, but not Rule Cyclopediacool>>97955949>yall>son>ah reckon>shuckskys fishfag
>>97956225 They are fine on money my guy. They have been selling older PDFs for over a decade. Recall those premium 1e and 2e core books? It's a corporation there is a dime to be had they will squeeze it.
>>97955966reminder to call the mods again if you hate it so much, BITCH NIGGA>>97955789this random convention runs /osrg/? wild
>>97956250Not fishfag, who is likely never been one person. But you are a dense motherfucker so can't tell
>>97956257>ESL retard babble kill yourself, fishfag
>>97954917OSR is still a useless relic when you can just play 1e with chainmail these days.
Shadowdark, OSR or not? Also give reasons for your opinion.
i know osrg doesnt care but today I ran into the guy who killed my best friend 9 years ago. I always thought I would kill him. I just ended up breaking down. fucking way she goes
>>97956272NTA but most of the pure up clones are better than trying to use the old 1e books
>>97956272>1e with chainmailwhich are OSR games. are you retarded or?
>>97956251They have been selling older PDFs for over a decade.There were theories about why they never ever sold Moldvay B/X nor BECMI in print, even when those where the top bestsellers ever, and if you saw those "older PDFs" they were awful amateurish scans that looked like shit, not exactly a mega-corp grade product, piracy had better copies of those. If you think about it, it is dumb not to sell something that will sell lots of copies for sure. Hasbro is desperate because profit had been dwindling at a constant rate.
>>97956302It's just another old PDF that costed them next to nothing to make money off of. I hate to tell you but 5e is the best selling D&D of all time. Which just makes sense as the hobby is much larger now.
>>97955966The osrg is not healthy, it's barrenThe latest discussion that has any traction not only paints a pretty clear picture of the hijack clique being oblivious to what "good" means in the most basic everyday sense, but that they also either failed to read or comprehend their sacred cow of 1e
>>97955242>It wasn't about stopping it, but moving those off topic argumentsAnd, as an example of why that's not going to work, I brought up the "martial" vs caster debate that has been going on for over 20 years and pops up in almost every thread in spite of there having been threads being dedicated to moving those arguments.
>>97955583>BECMILike hell /osrg/ is about that at present. When's the last time you saw a post in /osrg/ about Mentzer or BECM let alone BECMI that wasn't replied to with >off topic>nerfed thieves>pick a path/choose your own adventure waifu story teaches you bad habits>B box is useless as a reference manualeven though it wasn't intended as a reference manual but an instructional manual, and that sort of thing. I like BECMI but trolls in /osrg/ have a lot of bad things to say about it. It was in /osrg/ for a long time but the resident trolls shout it down now.
>>97956302>yes selling some thousands of b/x print copies surely will make a financial difference for wotcretard
>>97956257>I'm more than one personNo, you're less than one person because you're a subhuman, fishfag.2e is not OSR. Never has been. Never will be. Go cry to the mods again.
>>97956275Butter, carb or not? Also give reasons for your opinion.
>>979563645e is not D&D, it's a completely unrelated game that Hasbro has decided to market under the D&D brand name.As the trademark owners, Hasbro have a right to sell Risk and call it D&D. Doesn't make Risk D&D any more (or any less) than 5e is.Also, the 5th edition of D&D is BECMI.
>>97956602>When's the last time you saw a post in /osrg/ about Mentzer or BECM let alone BECMI that wasn't replied to with>off topicNever happens except possibly as an occasional joke, since it's on topic.>nerfed thieves>pick a path/choose your own adventure waifu story teaches you bad habitsThat's all very valid criticism, being on topic doesn't make a game immune to that.>B box is useless as a reference manualNever heard that one before. BECMI has its problems, but it's reasonably well organised. Arguably better than its predecessors, in fact.
>>97956364Mentzer Basic is by all accounts still the best selling D&D of all time.
>>97956019>t. seething about the truthIf your OSR history is not in line with the OSR Simulacrum post series you're the revisionist, it's that simple and straightforward.
>>97956857>if you don't accept the easily disproven lies of a tiny group that tried to take over the OSR but their limited ideas were rejected by the rest of the community, you're the revisionist!They can't even reconcile with C&C being part of the OSR because that completely undermines their attempt to establish premiere status, two years too late.
Well, you'll see anyway.
>>97956699none of the official editions are OSR, retardOSR is an indie scene that emerged with OGL to preserve the older non-printed contentwhat you are thinking of is "old-school D&D" itself, and yes, 2e is old-school, and yes, For Gold and Glory, a 2e retroclone, is an OSR gameseethe more
>>97956898>complain about it there>If you want to reclaim /osrg/, get in there and critique, call out & question, and don't leave.It's hilarious how you keep trying to raise a sperg army against /osrg/ despite1. Everybody having told you to fuck off, even on /2eg/ and /todd/2. Raids being explicitly against the rules. 3. Having been explicitly told by the mods to stop doing trolling /osrg/.All of this for a game you don't even play, as has been shown a bunch of times. You really need psychiatric help.>creating a seperate refugee thread does not workBecause 2e is a dogshit game that nobody plays and so you have absolutely nothing to talk about. Which is also why you'll never be able to raise your sperg army, fishfag. There's simply not enough people who give a shit about 2e.
>>97956922C&C is absolute dogshit. It's a shit system that nobody has any reason to play, ever. The only reason (You) constantly bring it up is because (You)'ve made it part of your schizo theory of why 2e is OSR. It isn't.
>>97956857>If your OSR history is not in line with the OSR Simulacrum post serieslinque pl0x?
These are the only criteria I have for whether something is osr or not:1.) Femoids have never heard of it2.) The orcs in it are literally, not figuratively or symbolically, just niggers3.) The table drinks and smokes
>>97956930>I'll get you and your little dog too! lol
>>97957211I don't particularly like C&C. But trying to pretend it's not OSR just so you can try to say OSRIC was the first OSR game is the part where you're being a revisionist alongside being a hypocrite, because OSRIC is a shit clone "that nobody had any reason to play, ever". That's particularly because when it was first released in 2006, it was only available as a PDF and by 2009 (when it first became available in a physical form but only as part of a Print-on-Demand service) there were plenty of other (and better) clones in physical formats. But, it's also because OSRIC just didn't bring anything to the table that a PDF of the original didn't, except a forgettable mess of amateur works made by people who thought OSRIC would be something more than a failed system that people were going to try to revive more than a decade later by exaggerating how important it was to the OSR.If you're not one of the con-men, you're essentially spreading the lies of a tiny group who have financial and egotistical incentives to pretend they were fare more important than they were, all in the face of some pretty clear evidence that they were late to the party they're trying to claim they started.C&C is a system that had some really bad luck (right before it's 2nd edition was going to be released, Gygax died and his widow locked TLG in a lengthy legal battle), but it proved that OSR systems could be financially viable and that WotC wouldn't smother the baby in its crib with legal challenges. While C&C is not a great, or honestly even that good, of a system, it's an important piece of OSR history and laid down the precedent that even someone who was working on OSRIC admitted they had followed.
>>97956699Once more I ask you to give me the major mechanical differences between 1e and 2e.
>>97956840No, it sold 1.2 million copies. 5e is at 1.7 only with the big box store data alone
>>97957211NTA , but son being good or not is irrelevant. C&C is factually the first OSR game but doesn't have to be good.Also y'all can never defend your cliam that 2e isn't OSR as OSR is pre 3e. If 2e isn't OSR 1e isn't as they are pretty much the same system with minior changes.
>>97957221https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/02/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-i.html
>>97956857 You are the revisionist here. Sure there was a small group across the Internet that opposed all the other OSR groups and what it to be ultra "pure" but they were a vast minority and ended up fleeing everywhere else as Thier BS wasn't popular and Thier trolling not tolerated OSR is and was about pre 3e gaming style and systems. The first OSR game was C&C and it's a neo clone, not a pure clone. Another early one still popular was Basic Fantasy Roleplay, also not a pure clone and used modern Ascending AC
>>97957575he absolutely is, but he doesn't care.>>97955347O-S-RCHIVE went down! it's not accessible at all right now.Did they get DMCA'd? Or worse, is 2e getting scrubbed because of trollcow's shenanigans?
>>97957518>If 2e isn't OSR 1e isn't as they are pretty much the same system with minior changes.you underestimate the double-think capabilities of emotional peopletruth or reasoning doesn't matter to them, it's all about how it makes them feel
>>97957575According to the guy who made BFRPG, it was partially released online before OSRIC, so even that on a technicality predates OSRIC as well. And to complicate things further there's games that were made not by people who were part of the OSR community but still used/discussed by the OSR community, like Hackmaster.
>>97957622You're genuine effort is wasted on these bad faith assholes. But i applaud you on this image anon, i'm saving it for later.
>>97957448Holy stramwan.Here's the actual history: People had high hopes in C&C until it came out. When they saw it's chock full of 2e-isms and 3e-isms, extremely poorly written and poorly thought out, it was deemed useless, and so they got to work on other systems. And this is how, in the span of a couple of years, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, and Swords and Wizardry were published, which are systems that actually enable people to play in the OSR style. Nobody is particularly attached to OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords and Wizardry, or any of the other excellent retroclones that have since come out. What matters is whether you can use those to play in the OSR style, and C&C does not meet the criteria.I guess you could call C&C pre-OSR or a failed attempt at OSR, it's irrelevant.And 2e remains not OSR.
>>97957518>If 2e isn't OSR 1e isn't as they are pretty much the same system with minior changes.That says everything about you and nothing about AD&D.
>>97957650C&C was the first OSR game, that is simply the facts.>>97957668Yet, you can't give mechanical examples of major system changes. 1e and 2e are mechanically the same system.
>>97957650>I guess you could call C&C pre-OSR or a failed attempt at OSR, it's irrelevant.lmao, you're doing >>97957622 to a T
>>97957495We've literally told you a hundred times. 4chan is not an autistic fixation support group, seek psychiatric help.
>>97957693>deflectionNo, you haven't, as he's not the same person as your strawman. Now, tell him.
>>97957681>Yet, you can't give mechanical examples of major system changes.We've literally told you a hundred times. 4chan is not an autistic fixation support group, seek psychiatric help, fishfag.>1e and 2e are mechanically the same system.lollmao even
>>97957699>I'm more than one personNo, you're not even one person because you're a subhuman, fishfag.
>>97957622Where does Zak "Did nothing wrong" S fit into this?
>>97957705>>97957700>More deflectionGo on, tell us. We are waiting. If you're so sure of yourself, explain.
>>97957693Incorrect I have never been told. The only argument I have seen y'all give us "gold isn't xp...seeeth rage!!!!" and that is a minor change that 2e even still allows you to use
>>97957700No don, once more you always refuse when I ask you as you have nothing.2e is the 1e system with patches. You can run 1e and 2e misters and classes in the same game with zero issue
>>97957727NTA, but they can't tell us as they have nothing. The hill they die on us "No XP for gold!" Even though that rule is in the 2e DMG and altering how XP works is a minor thing and games can offer multiple options on XP.
>>97956602>>nerfed thievesWhich is funny since the first time thieves were even made a workable class was in 2e.
>>97957638That’s because every version of D&D is potentially on-topic for every other version of D&D, for the same reason that books about caves and books about armor and various fantasy novels can be on-topic for every version of D&D, people around here are just silly.I mean, this is 4chan, you should be able to tell the difference between a productive conversation and a posturing shitshow, that’s just a basic function of using the website. The OSR threads have always had both and some people just never get used to it.
>>97957785NTA, I recall the first time I saw a 1e thief
>>97957747see that black arrow between 1e and 2e?
>>97957828Than explain these major changes. No one has so far.
>>97957828>An almost 10, at least 15 year old cherrypicked imageStill waiting on said "major changes"
>>97957880NTA, but yeah this image is laughable. Whoever made it had no idea what they were talking about
VERY Partial list of the reasons why 2e does not support my preferred style of play (but AD&D does), and why I don't want to share a discussion space with 2e players and DMs>The XP value of monsters in 2e is too highThis means that even if I try and ignore all the "default" rules for XP in 2e and only use the XP for gold optional rule (against strong advice not to "overuse it"), too many XP are awarded for monsters, which shifts the emphasis of the game in a direction I abhor.>The rules for running dungeons are often missing, defective, or botched. Dungeon exploration speeds have been increased tenfold. It's been years, so I can't remember if the rules for dungeon pursuits are completely absent or botched.Most characters cannot look for secret doors: only Thieves and Elves can.The times to search for secret doors was increased fivefold, from one round per 10' section to one turn per 20' section. This means that either I have to telegraph the presence of secret doors (which makes the whole search a pantomime) or the players won't be searching for them almost ever, because it takes too long. If I remember correctly, there's no rules for searching for traps for non-thieves and the time it takes to search for them.1/3
>>979579232/3>Wilderness exploration.The rules for wilderness exploration have similarly been in large part omitted or altered in 2e. E.g. there's no rules for wilderness evasion, which is an absolutely essential mechanics.>Downtime play and "strict time records"2e has practically no rules for downtime play, which means that the "strict time records" style of play, by which the world's calendar moves forward when no play is happening, which in turn forces rotation of PCs and empowers open table play, is basically unsupported. Additional unsupported downtime procedures: No rules for locating henchmen, how many are available, and the time and gold it takes to find and advertise for them because henchmen are friends of the PCs introduced by the DM, not employees that the PCs seek; no rules for spying, assassination, and manufacturing poisons; no diseases and parasites; no forced bed rest from reaching negative HP.>Random encountersNo tables for random encounters. Yeah, I could make my own, but the AD&D DMG has 20 pages of excellent tables for dungeon, wilderness, underwater, astral, ethereal, psionic, and urban encounters.>Additional semi-random stuff from AD&D that I use regularly and would miss sorely in 2e:Weaponless combat.Weapon space required.Simple 1:10 or 1:20 scaled mass combat.No procedural wilderness and dungeon generation tables.No tables for herbs and their properties.No armour bulk and no effect of armour and encumbrance on surprise.2/3
>>97957923>>979579313/3Anticipated Questions:>B-but you can just make those rules up in 2e.Yeah, but then I'd not be playing 2e anymore. And why would I do that, since AD&D already has those rules?>B-but I don't use those rules.Well, I do.>B-but a couple of those rules are in this or that 2e splatbook.Don't care.>B-but B/X doesn't have some of those rules either!B/X is the basic, introductory game for children, who are expected to eventually graduate to AD&D. It's an extremely valuable stepping stone towards the full game, and the core philosophy of 2e perfectly in line with that of AD&D. 2e, on the other hand, gives tons of DM advice that run directly counter the advice in the DMG.>B-but I play 2e in the same style as you do.This is obviously false, but let's asssume for the sake of discussion that you do: I don't want to share my discussion spaces with the average 2e player/DM, because 2e contains a huge amount of DM advice that I consider harmful, what with all the railroading and narrative style of DMing, and the recommendation against (over)using XP for gold. 2e promotes a philosophy and style of play that runs directly counter to mine, so we'd just be at loggerheads over everything.Last but not least, I want my discussion spaces to be places where the Gygax style of D&D is kept alive, so having railroading/narrativist players and DMs hanging out and giving bad advice to people would be detrimental.
>>97957923This is a goalpost shit. You are talking playstyle not system. Once more give me the major system changes that makes 2e an entirely new system
>>97957935>and the core philosophy of 2e perfectly in line with that of AD&DI meant the core philosophy of B/X, of course.
>>97957937>give me the major system changesIt's literally a list of rules changed or omitted. And they are all extremely major.
>>97957952No, it's a list of minior things and playstyle stuff you admitted you could still do in 2e. Not a single thing listed is a major change. At this point it's clear you know it's the same system but you admit it's the style shift that's the issue for you.You can run 1e monsters and classes in 2e and 2e in 1e
>>97957937>You are talking playstyle not system.NTAYRTThis is a ridiculous claim, Anon gave a list of system changes together with reasons why they are fundamental to the OSR/Gygaxian style of play.
>>97957961>it's a list of minior things and playstyle stuffThe fact that you think those fundamental things are minor is why I, and everybody else on /osrg/, don't want people like you in our discussion space. >playstyle stuff you admitted you could still do in 2e>it's clear you know it's the same systemHoly mother of bad faith responses.
>>97957963He gave a list of very minor changes. Not a single major change that alters the system in a big way. His issue is style change
>>97957979Nope. Those are all major fundamental changes.
>>97957974 They are factually minior with zero major system changes. It's the same fucking system with minior changes. That's like saying 3.5 is a totally brand new system from 3.0 when it's a bunch of changes on the same system. Hell 3.5 to 3.0 has more and bigger changes than 1e to 2e
>>97957979>His issue is style changeNo, it's how the RULES were botched and removed in order to promote a style of play that I loathe.
>>97957993Nope, those are minior changes. You can still use 1e stuff with 2e with zero conversion and vice versa.
>>97957650No, that's just K&KA lies. Hell, it's even more lies than what the K&KA came up with.No one cared about 2e-isms. The problem with C&C was that there were no guidelines on how far from the d20 system a game could be and still remain under the umbrella of the Open Game License, and C&C was essentially built as a d20 system that would allow older adventures to be ported into it, as well as be used as the spiritual successor to Greyhawk, with Gygax and Kuntz bringing old adventures along with new ones into the system.This proved surprisingly successful, though mostly thanks to Gygax's endorsement. And, the important thing to remember is that it actually sold, as in that it was offered for money and people were willing to pay for it.>And this is how, in the span of a couple of years, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, and Swords and Wizardry were published,Remember that most of these were barely published. Both Labyrinth Lord and OSRIC started out as free downloads for several years, and S&W was actually Matt Finch seeing the writing on the wall and moving on from OSRIC and trying to make a commercially viable product years later (2009).And please, shut the fuck up already about what you think the "OSR style" is. You're free to think what you want, but don't expect you have the power to make anyone agree with you, especially when your definition is simply "hating on 2e, and not with any real logic".
>>97957996>They are factually miniorWrong. They are factually major.
>>97957998Do a bunch of minior changes hurt your feelings. I am still waiting for a list of major system changes.
>>97957999Nope, those are major
>>97958005So you can't use 2e books in 1e, totally unable to use 1e monsters in 2e? We both know you canI'll wait for you to desperately try to think up a major change.
>>97957518>same system with minior changes>>97957961>it's a list of minior things>>97957996>They are factually minior>with minior changes>>97957999>those are minior changes>>97958008>Do a bunch of minior changesFishfag = autistically samefagging ESL retard confirmed once again. Totally more than one person!
>>97957937It's also just 90% bullshit.
>>97958030Those where in fact all me, not your boogieman. The other anon failed at showing major changes. The system is functionally the same with a large series of minior changes
>>97958041Yeah, it's a desperate list of his options not facts. It's all "I feel like this is bad!" And not actual major changes. There are a few, but they don't know that as they don't know the ruleset.
>>97957923>Dungeon exploration speeds have been increased tenfold. That's a good thing.>The times to search for secret doors was increased fivefold, from one round per 10' section to one turn per 20' section.I think you got your numbers wrong for 1e. Otherwise you'd be able to thoroughly check 100' of wall for secret doors in the same time it takes you to walk 120' (less when encumbered)>>97957931>No tables for random encounters. Yeah, I could make my ownNot could, should.>Weapon space required.I don't believe you this comes up more often than once every 10 sessions as a gotcha.>no effect of armour and encumbrance on surpriseDon't recall any effect of those on surprise in AD&D 1e. But the surprise rules immediately contradict themselves anyway.
>>97958030>Lists a bunch of optional rules and playstyle stuff>"YOU MUST PLAY THIS EXACT WAY DESPITE THE RULEBOOK SAYING IT'S GUIDELINES!">>97958043Yeah, he calls everyone (myself included) his strawman.
>>97958043>I'm more than one person.You're not even one person for that matter, since you're a subhuman, fishfag.
>>97958076> autistically samefagging ESL retard confirmed once again.
>>97958062This post a perfect example of why we don't want 2etards in /osrg/: You guys think you understand real AD&D, but you don't.>Increasing speed in dungeons tenfold is a good thing.For a storyshitting 2e game it probably is, but in real, Gygaxian AD&D it's harmful.>I think you got your numbers wrong for 1e. Nope, you're wrong, and you're proving you don't understand AD&D.>I don't believe you this comes up more often than once every 10 sessions as a gotcha.It comes up literally every time there's a fight in a corridor, and in mass combat, because it determines the size of the base. You're proving one again that you don't understand the real AD&D.>Don't recall any effect of those on surprise in AD&D 1e.Because you're a retard who doesn't understand the real AD&D.
>>97958069>IT'S GUIDELINESIf everything is guidelines, than 3e, 4e, 5e, GURPS, and Rolemaster are all OSR as well. You just have to ignore their "guidelines".
>>97958069Yeah, his newest is claiming I am taking my posting style as it doesn't line up with what he needs. Apparently he doesn't know anyone who uses y'all IRL, so clearly it must be fake
>>97958106NTA but y'all really don't understand what OSR is or you wouldn't try such stupid arguments
>>97958107>Apparently he doesn't know anyone who uses y'all IRLIt's about (You) spelling "minor" as "minior", you fucking ESL subhuman.
>>97958121>Ad hominem deflectionIrrelevant.>>97958097>but in real, Gygaxian AD&DYou mean a hyper cherrypicked rose tinted interpretation of 1e?>you don't understand the real AD&D.Tap tap >>97957622
>>97958069If there's so many of you, why are you utterly unable to create a thread and keep it alive, fishfag?
>>97958185NTA, but wasn't the last thread 500+ posts of you getting flogged for being such a retard?I'm actually surprised you're still so uppity when there's yet another thread of you embarrassing yourself for people to show how much of a cancerous little troll you are.Do you imagine this board has no memory or something?
>>97958121Dyslexia is a bitch son, those words look the same to me. Took me 3 readings to see the difference.Once more not everyone is your conspiracy boogieman
>>97958185Because it's literally only one troll with a hate boner for /osrg/. He doesn't actually care about games, or he would create his own general with his own distinct name.
>>97958299NO. this poster has called no less than 3 people fishfag on this thread alone. No matter how many times we tell you dumb motherfuckers we are not one person. Hell I get accused of it and don't go to the echo chamber.Pointing out the osrg is wrong on OSR isn't a big indicator as it's the majority opinion of the entire OSR movement.
I like Dolmenwood
>>97958270He acts like archives don't exists and just ignores/pretends like whenever he is called out it never happened. he is entirely "Fake it till you make it."The only way to genuinely affect change is to post in /osrg/ however, this is ultimately a distraction as he will act like this thread never happened and wont change.
>>97958345Dolmen wood looks solid. OSE is to light for me but the setting looks killer
>>97958345>The best part about making meatballs is knowing that Trollcow doesn’t know how to.>And it’s important to make meatballs, so that you can remind Trollfaggot that He can’t have anything good in life. He's allowed to have ACKS2 and 2e hate and gygax ritualposting. >Hey, that's a pretty good meatball... Not that Trollcow would know! HAHA HAHAHAHAHA
>>97957522LMAOosrg retards in thread A be leik>the mechanical fidelity is what makes OSR>the rules force the correct OSR gameplaymeanwhile the same osrg retards in thread B>here is a link to a blogpost of a retard's exercise in revisionism about why 1e rules actually didn't force any correct OSR gameplay and you need the correct VIBESactual lolman it's such a pity you have no intellectual capacity to appreciate the comedic effect of your arguments
>>97957693>anon tries to use deflection>it's not very effectivecan't give mechanical examples of major system changes. P e r i o d that's why you always handwave the questionfor fucks sake the blogpost one of you two retards posted to simulacrum literally goes into detail on how 1e and 2e are mechanically the same thing
>>97957828WOW!!A new high in arguments!An arrow is black everybody!please do refer to the diagram
>>97957518>son>Y'all It's really cute how desperately you are clinging on to these, as though people will somehow forget who you are
>These are all minor differences! They don't matter, they're-Minor differences that add up to a different playstyle and dynamic.If you disagree, explain where, in your eyes, the border of the OSR lies.Not in terms of time or systems, but from first principles. What makes an OSR game an OSR game exactly?Because you constantly piss blood over "Oh they're trying to promote a specific playstyle and that gives me the salty cunt" but you never explain why we're wrong to say that specific playstyle is what makes something OSR, or what OSR actually is.And if you say anything that translates to "OSR is basically vibes" then expect to be heckled into a fine paste.
>>97957575>Different places and groups have different definitions and group scopes >But I want osrg to have the same opinions as Reddit and rpgnet
>>97958525Honestly, even if that were the case that'd still be better than having the same opinions as the guys who somehow managed to get banned from those sites for being too gay even for them.
>>97958513>but you never explain why we're wrong to say that specific playstyle is what makes something OSRThat's been explained a million times already.It's because it's factually wrong.If I said "Western movies are a specfic genre about Cowboys killing Indians", it wouldn't matter if that's the kind of movie I though was best, it wouldn't even be worth debating if that kind of film is superior or inferior to what other people considered Westerns; I would simply be wrong. If I tried to say "Anyone who wants to talk about movies that don't involve Cowboys killing Indians, you need to get the fuck out of the /Western Movie General/", I would be very much in the wrong, regardless of how many other people agreed that Cowboys killing Indians is the best part of Western movies and that any Western movie that omitted that key feature was trash.
>>97957612>spoilerYou genuinely need meds you scum sucking loser.
>>97955240Yes it is.
>>97958613>It's factually wrong because I say it isYou're still not giving your definition retard, you're trying to slyly duck out of doing so by trying to knock together a shit metaphor while ignoring the question.If the definition is wrong then what's the right definition that you're so hell set on arguing for?What is it, from first principles, that makes an OSR game an OSR game?
>>97958576Then go to those places if you want those opinions. I'm sorry that 4chan isn't providing the user experience that you desire, but that isn't our problem, so just deal with it or go the fuck away
>>97958636>If the definition is wrong then what's the right definition that you're so hell set on arguing for?TSR/Pre-WotC/pre-2000/etc. era D&Ds and related/inspired systems?The definition everyone uses?Shit man, it's really that simple. >What is it, from first principles, that makes an OSR game an OSR game?That's a matter of personal opinion and is open to debate and discussion. You might have your answer, and I might have mine, and there's even a chance they will the same or near enough. But, the key thing, what separates you from any non-autistic person, is that you find it intolerable for people to have differences in opinion in a movement that can't even all agree on what the "R" stands for.
>>97958052Cool, you asked a question, you got the answer, and no matter what the answer is it's not changing your opinion, and it's not changing what osrg is and is not. This stalemate will continue forever until you decide to go back to where you came from and leave us be once more.
>>97958062>I don't believe you this comes up more often than once every 10 sessions as a gotcha.Just because you have a skill issue with using something in the game, doesn't mean other people do. Weapons space required illustrates how many people can hold a particular amount of space in defense from enemies. Do you not understand what the statistic is meant for?
>>97957522>https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/02/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-i.htmlThe issue with the argument this guy makes throughout this series is his claims are all based on the assumption that gold-for-XP is the core criteria for something being considered OSR. That's a justifiable position to take, but he never really argues why that should be the case, just takes it as a prior and goes off running.It's also really funny how you guys keep using this guys' posts to argue your excessively narrow definition of OSR stuff, since he says in the comments that (for good or for ill) the meaning of OSR has changed to something broader and he's against any claims being made of "one true way"/
>>97958636NTA but OSR has always been about recreation pre 3e game mechanicals or play style. It's a very simple and broad definition.The first OSR game was a neo clone using a heavily modified d20 system to capture the feel and style of 1e/2e
>>97958669No. I asked for major changes, the Anon started off talking about playstyle, which is not a rules change itself. Then he gave a list of minior changes he didn't like. Not good, not bad, he simply disliked
>>97958693>That's a justifiable position to take,I'd argue it isn't, and gold-for-XP is very much and overblown sacred cow, the kind that a game like Shadowdark would includes solely to be able to say "Look at me guys, aren't I OLD SCHOOL?"
>>97958718Minor. M I N O R. Fucking SPELL it correctly you're giving the retards ammo with your dogged illiteracy.
>>97957495No relevant to the debate, which was settled ages ago.
>>97958665>That's a matter of personal opinion and is open to debate and discussion.Alright so you're outright admitting you're just arguing for "Well it's vibes, there's no real definition."You're trying to tell people who have an actual, clear distinction for what they're interested in that no-no, that's not the definition, there is no definition, therefore anything is permissible and expecting them to respect your deconstructionist horseshit as if it's an actual, serious, legitimate argument.>the key thing, what separates you from any non-autistic person, is that you find it intolerable for people to have differences in opinion in a movement that can't even all agree on what the "R" stands for."Only autistic people know what football is, for the rest of us normal people it's just vibes and no one really knows or cares about the specifics. That's why my definition of football includes Hacky sack, because it has foots and it has balls in it. Why are you all telling me to fuck off and stay out of the Association football thread? Is it because you're autistic?"Terrible attempt, apply yourself, 0/10 effort.
>>97957935Here's a question then: why is discussion of retroclones as far removed from 1e and B/X as ACKS and LotFP allowed?
>>97958740They are on-topic retroclones of on-topic games.How is this not self-explanatory?
>>97958730They don't care how I talk or spell. If you don't agree with Thier weird revisionist history you are one guy
>>97958733Then you can easily point out the major system changes that make it incompatible with 1e. Go on, you claim you can do it
>>97958740It's flat earther like logic man. Facts and reason are not part of the echo chamber as it challenges the ideology so must be wrong. Just leave em to Thier safe space
>>97958740>Here's a question then: why is discussion of retroclones as far removed from 1e and B/X as ACKS and LotFP allowed?Because the people you're arguing with are consistently working from the point of "OSR games are games that fit this specific set of mechanical principles which enable this game style and these games fit those criteria"?Once you accept that it's not about time period, but about mechanical fidelity and game design then suddenly everything clicks into place.The 2e-autist is looking at a group of people who have a thread about the original Doom and going "But why do you allow Ashes 2063 to be talked about in this thread but not Doom 3. This is unfair, I'm going to throw a bitch-fit until you let me in."No the Survival Horror game Doom 3 is not the same game as the original Doom and we don't care if you write an entire thesis on how the "Boomer shooter" genre is totally a spooky scary revenant and doesn't exist, or how much time you spend on incrementalizing wordplay to try and redefine the boundaries of the genre.And we really, really don't give a fuck about you whine to Mummy-Mods about how we're not letting you play in our threads, or how we're great big meanies for saying it isn't the same game.You're not coming in, not welcome and if you don't like it? Well you can just shit your diaper harder and sit in it from here to eternity.
>>97955629>redefines the word "OSR" in a bespoke definition nobody else agrees with>complains people don't agree with him>calls them retarded for not agreeing with himYes, this is why people don't like you. Go check any website that sells RPGs and labels some "OSR", look at the top sellers in that category, and count the number of B/X clones (hint: it's approximately zero).
>>97958734>Alright so you're outright admitting you're just arguing for "Well it's vibes, there's no real definition."Are you illiterate?>TSR/Pre-WotC/pre-2000/etc. era D&Ds and related/inspired systemsThat's it. Look, I know you want "football" to mean solely "College football" because you personally think their rules are superior, and that anyone who includes the NFL or any other league or style of play is "just vibes", but you are simply being factually wrong. You're fine to enjoy College Football all you want, as long as you don't try to pretend that it's the only football.Notice how it works? Your false analogy was "You're trying to take something specific and make it meaninglessly broad", while the real analogy is that you are taking something that's actually already pretty narrow (TSR/Pre-WotC/pre-2000/etc. era D&Ds and related/inspired systems is really a small slice of the RPG pie) and thinking that it's nowhere near narrow enough.
>>97958805>Are you illiterateApparently you are given you ignored >If you disagree, explain where, in your eyes, the border of the OSR lies.>Not in terms of time or systems, but from first principles.>What makes an OSR game an OSR game exactly?Cope about it louder why don't you?
>>97958797NTA but at the very least ACK does not meet the "mechanical principles" of BX or 1e. He has spread modern mechanical principles all though it.It's just about being part of a set club. Which is fine but don't lie about it.
>>97958813Let's see if your brain damage is just that you need to read a reply twice before you actually can comprehend it. >>97958665
>>97958816It's such a weird little bit of hypocrisy.
>>97957923>The times to search for secret doors was increased fivefold, from one round per 10' section to one turn per 20' section.LOL this is hilarious because it's obvious you don't even play AD&D 1e or you didn't bother to proofread what the LLM had generatedI guess everyone else didn't even bother to read that shit when it was obvious it was AI generated
>>97958816Alright now that's an actually interesting argument and something we can discuss and have a conversation about.Why do you think it doesn't meet the mechanical principles of BX/1e/OSR? I'd say it hits the big, important points (XP for gold, most character advancement coming from soft power rather than hard, a heavy sandbox focused approach, the range of character power and abilities, race-as-class, more of a focus on building a consistent, natural world as oppose to later 'Setting as place the story is going on in' type design focus.)See the difference here, we're going to be talking principles and design concepts, you didn't just go "Nuh-uh, it's not an OSR game because only BroSR poo-poo-pee-pee head chuds think OSR games are those that follow a specific set of design concepts, in reality OSR is like art, anything can be OSR if I really want it to be."
>>97958729>gold-for-XP is very much and overblown sacred cowyou dont play OSR
>>97958802>Go check any website that sells RPGs and labels some "OSR", look at the top sellers in that category, and count the number of B/X clonescool? we dont care, thats exactly the point: we exclude the shit that you consider "OSR"
>>97957963anon copy/pasted an LLM's hallucinationbeing wrong not only on how 2e works but on how 1e works as well
>>97958870No, /osrg/ and the retards in this thread do not get to define what words mean. They are defined by their use. If /osrg/ started to use the term "very" to mean "not," insisted on it, screeched and cried and argued across threads, etc, the word "very" would STILL not be a synonym for "not," because nobody would use the word that way except you.
>>97958882By your own argument there's no set agreement on what OSR is.Therefore /osrg/ deciding on its own concrete definition is perfectly legit.Cope about it harder you worthless sack of shit.
>>97957622lol @ the remphan david star>OSRael
>>97958882>do not get to define what words meanYes, we do. And you can piss and moan for another five years, but it will change.Go to somewhere that is sympathetic to your retardation, stop bothering out small slice on he internet away from freaks like you.
>>97958816Fuck you, you've got his micro-penis erect because now he can spew about his favorite faggotry.
>>97958513>explain where the border of punk rock lies>explain where the border of art nouveau liesor here is something that hits a bit closer to home>explain where the border of heroic fantasy liesNo.this is futile labor for the retarded of mind who can't live in a world without everything put into a box.Moreover, what is the goal of such labor would be?
>>97958872NTA. It's all correct, you just don't know anything about AD&D, 2etard.
>>97958513>Lord SothWhat, now DL's OSR?
>>97958899>but it will change.will change nothing** of course
>>97958882>No, /osrg/ and the retards in this thread do not get to define what words mean.They factually have for over a decade. Cope and seethe
>>97958882Please don't act like the /osrg/ is defined by its current troll hijackers.
>>97958913lol see>>97958858it seems you don't even know anything about 1e eitherpwnd
>>97958858>LOL this is hilarious because it's obvious you don't even play AD&D 1eNTA. He's right it, it takes one minute per 10×10 section. You're the one who doesn't know how AD&D works.
>>97958926Let's see now... 2016...https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/48722805/#q48722805>Welcome to /osrg/ - the OSR General, devoted to pre-WotC D&D, retroclones, and all other related systems.
>>97958908>We've now reached the point where he outright admits to being a deconstructionist faggot who doesn't believe in boundariesThanks for playing, you can bitch about it loud and long as you like but the Mahna Mahna song will never be worked into the definition of punk rock.And no amount of work by a muppet such as yourself is going to get it there.
>>97958805>>TSR/Pre-WotC/pre-2000/etc. era D&Ds and related/inspired systems3e is OSR too, given how the OSR movement was born in opposition to the changes in 3.5e, and how C&C incorporated many elements of 3e into it.
>>97958893No, words are defined by their common use. Their common use is not at all /osrg/'s definition, and in fact that definition is basically designed to exclude the vast majority of works people consider OSR.>>97958926>>97958926No, they haven't? You only define what gets posted in /osrg/ without screeching. I just explained how you don't define what OSR means, because you can look at people using the term in the wild and it's pretty much never the way you want it used. You didn't "win" anything.
>>97958944no. that's just simple walk-by tapping lolyou actually have to search for means to open the door
>>97958718>I asked for major changesAnd you got them. Cope harder
>>97958957>No, words are defined by their common use. Their common use is not at all /osrg/'s definition, and in fact that definition is basically designed to exclude the vast majority of works people consider OSR.Alright so if everyone turned around tomorrow and went "FATAL, FATE and Apocalypse World are now OSR games" would that make them so?
>>97958708>OSR has always been about recreation pre 3eWrong. 3e is OSR, because the OSR was born in opposition to the changes in 3.5e
>>97958693>gold-for-XP is the core criteriaIt's the gold criteriON, illiterate subhuman.
>>97958708>NTA but OSR has always been about recreation pre 3e gamedont care.2e is off-topic for /osrg/.
>>97958962Yes, that's how words work. They work only because we all agree that these particular sequences of characters (or phonemes) have this particular meaning. If we agreed they had a different meaning, then they would have a different meaning. Duh.
>>97958665>TSR/Pre-WotC/pre-2000/etc. era D&Ds and related/inspired systems?No, 3e is OSR as well, since the OSR was born in opposition to 3.5e.
>>97958980Forget that man, he's just admitted that he's a "Words are a social construct" retard.Literally a "Words am magic spells, hurr" tier midwit.Him saying "All the cool kids say 2e is an OSR therefore it is" is the least of his problems.
>>97958330>I'm at least three people.Then go ahead and create your own general, separate from /osrg/ and with its own name, with the plebbit definition of OSR, and talk about games there instead of whinging for YEARS like a retarded bitch, fishfag.
>>97959016Why? You would just attempt to shit it up, like you do all threads that touch on this subject matter, because you think OSR = good and also 1e = good but 2e = bad.
>>97958270Not sure what thread you're talking about, but if that's the case, then just make your own general with its own name and talk about games there instead.
>>97958934>it seems you don't even know anything about 1e eitherThen you'll have no difficulty telling us how long it takes to find a secret door in AD&D and attaching a screenshot, fishfag.
>>97958957>I just explained how you don't define what OSR meansYou don't either. 3e is OSR.
>>97959035>You don't either. 3e is OSR.If I go to itch.io or DTRPG and search for "OSR," will I find 3e clones or 3e supplements?
>>97958959>that's just simple walk-by tapping lolJust because you call it "walk-by-tapping" doesn't mean it's the time it take to find a secret door.>you actually have to search for means to open the doorThat's searching for means to open, not searching for a secret door. You've already found it at that point.
>>97959017>You would just attempt to shit it up,Bullshit.>like you do all threads that touch on this subject matterYou're the one who's been made hating /osrg/ your whole personality, fishfag. Just create a normal separate thread with its own distinct name and watch it die because there's only one of you.>because you think OSR = good and also 1e = good but 2e = bad.That's correct.
>>97959039DTRPG doesn't get to decide what OSR means, it's just a label that they use for marketing convenience. They can't change the historical fact that the OSR was born in opposition to 3.5e to bring D&D back to 3e and earlier editions.
>>97959000>he's just admitted that he's a "Words are a social construct" retard.Unsurprisingly, given how he constantly cites reddit and rpg.net as his favourite places for the definition of OSR and politics.
>>97959065>fishfagSchizophrenia.>That's correct.Mental retardation.>>97959074No, they don't, but how the word is used is what determines its definition, and DTRPG makes for a good clean way to check how people actually use the word. People attempting to sell things based on genres are attempting to accurately represent what is the content of the work to others, so that others interested in the type of thing the product is will purchase it. People do not use the word OSR to include 3e, they do use it to include the term ItO, therefore OSR is a set of things which includes Into the Odd but not 3e.
>>97958987>3e is OSR as well, since the OSR was born in opposition to 3.5e.You're correct. Thanks for clearing that common misconception up, Anon.
>>97959000>>97959087Ah, right, the definitions of words are decided by /osrg/ faggots shitting up the board while sucking off ACKS. Not by how people actually use the words to describe things.
>>97959089>how the word is used is what determines its definitionAnd the way is it's used and has been used on /osrg/ for many years proves that 2e is not OSR. I accept your concession.
>>97959107>And the way is it's used and has been used on /osrg/ for many years proves that 2e is not OSR. I accept your concession.By this definition, "woman" includes "trans women" because that's how the Democrats have used the term for years. I assume you fully endorse this and have no issues with it?
>>97958954The OSR movement was not born in opposition to anything, except perhaps a fear that WotC had abandoned pre-2000 editions entirely. It wasn't an anti-3e movement, but a pro-Old School movement, and that meant earnestly looking at 3e mechanics (and later editions as time went on) and considering them on their own merits, not blindly rejecting them as an expression of opposition. It's why BFRP has ascending AC, and Blood & Treasure uses FRW saves.
>>97959105>Ah, right, the definitions of words are decided by /osrg/ faggots shitting up the board while sucking off ACKS.Did you know Macris is a literal Nazi who owns slaves? It's infuriating how these chuds have taken control of 4chan.Make 4chan rpg.net again!
>>97959112>By this definition, "woman" includes "trans women" because that's how the Democrats have used the term for years. I assume you fully endorse this and have no issues with it?LMAOThat's literally your argument, idiot.Thanks for proving my point.
>>97959119Correct. Which is why 3e is on topic for OSR threads. Thanks.
>>97959122You do understand everyone sees you acting like this, right?Going full dumbass mode after being beaten soundly in argument is basically just admission of defeat.
>>97959125No, it doesn't prove your point at all. You're literally too stupid to understand that "the broad use of a word" is different from "a specific subgroup's unusual definition of a word that conflicts with the majority," probably because you have a sub-90 IQ.>>97959122ACKS is an ass system, anybody who reads it can see as much. It wasn't invented before 1983, it's not good, it doesn't develop on AD&D in a good direction but instead in a bad one.You guys suck him off because he is right-wing, and you always come back to blaming anybody disliking his shit system on being left-wing.
>>97959135>fishfag declaring he's won the argument againYour utter inability to get rid of your autistic tics is hilarious, fishfag.
>>97958893NTA but the definition of OSR has been repeated at lest twice. You don't like that it's rather broad, but "pre 3e game mechanics and/or play style" is a pretty well defined definition
>>97958862It uses some modern mechanics. I have not looked back over it in years so it's vague but it's not a clone.
>>97959138>seething intensifieslmao you've been gang raped again and you're in full meltdown mode fishfag
>>97958901Eh let him do so. This thread is for those arguments.
>>97959149It's clear but it's wrong, because it doesn't include 3e.
>>97959160>seething>fishfagthe intellectual capacity of /osrg/ is obviously very limited but there's no need to waste our time with worthless posts like this.
>>97958954No, 3e isn't OSR. But you seem to think OSR is only retroclones and does not include Neo clones.3e isn't pre 3e so can't be OSR itself
>>97959039doesnt matter what they say. >>97959105yes, /osrg/ defines /osrg/, not you or reddit
>>97958961No, I got a list of minior changes, very minior changes at that. And it was mostly "I don't like this!" Mechanically the tings listed are very, very minior and often had no mechanical effect at all.
>>97958967No son, I was active on DF back then. E world and a few other places too. OSR was always about pre 3rd edition
>>97958980And you are not in osrg. It's not off topic in this thread or most OSR threads as ya know it's an OSR game
>>97959189>doesnt matter what they say. It does, actually, that's how words work. /osrg/ doesn't get to define what the word "OSR" means, as they did not create the term, and their definition is wildly at odds with the common use of the term./osrg/ can, of course, say that nobody can use the letter "e" in their thread, but that does not mean OSR means not using the letter "e."
>>97959172OSR never included 3e, it was to recreate pre 3e games styles and mechanics
>People who use the thread don't get to define what the thread is about>I, the autistic hyperfixated retard who doesn't even believe words have meaning, get to decide what the thread is really aboutAnd then you wonder why everyone from the locals to the moderation team tells you to fuck off?The complete lack of self-awareness. Christ.
>>97959138>ACKS is an ass system, anybody who reads it can see as muchI'm still amazed that a game that has one of the worst initiative systems ever has anyone who thinks they could defend it on mechanical grounds. The game is borderline unplayable even just thanks to that one rule change because it slows down combat so much. When compounded together with all the other slowdowns, and it really becomes a pain of a system to run, a pain made all the more frustrating when there's so many actually faithful clones that do the job so much better.
>>97959215>/osrg/ doesn't get to define what the word "OSR" meansagain, I dont give a fuck what anyone else defines OSR as. /osrg/ defines what /osrg/ is.Dont like it? Cry to the mods, bitch nigga
>>97959201Nope.
>>97959215you cant even produce a legible character sheet. why should we give a single solitary shit about your opinion on *our* club?
>>97959215The thing I don't get is why the dumbest trolls on this board are the ones who get to say what the /osrg/ is, when there's been nonstop complaints from people who used to use the /osrg/ about the troll hijacking.
>>97959231Yep you lying about it just makes you look either stupid or dishonest son
>>97959240Mods don't really give a shit about /tg/ anymore, especially since the hack. We don't get enough traffic to be worth bothering with.
>>97959240>I keep bitching and won't stop bitching until I get my wayWe don't care how long your tantrum lasts, you're not having your way. Get fucked.
>>97959240NTA, but I say just make a new thread, make bring up osrg or "fish fag" off topic and then flag every one of the other fuckers as trolling and off topic that bring that shit in.Leave the trolls to Thier echo chamber. You can't save it, the cancer is to deep.
>>97959263There is at least one that protects the trolls in osrg, but other than that. Yeah
>>97959273thats what todd is supposed to be
>>97959240Probably because "nonstop whining from fishfag and his samefag posts in between him spamming hijack threads and having schizo meltdowns about ACKS and Nightlands and Dying Earth and so on" isn't likely to prompt anyone to action.
>>97959227>People who use the thread don’t get to define what the thread is aboutWhat about the people who used the thread who rejected the October change, and who you still insist were all just one person just so you can say they don’t get to play any part in defining what the /osrg/ is?The /osrg/’s population is less than half of what it was just a few months ago. Whether that’s a rejection of your hijacking or just people fleeing your presence, it’s part of a concerning downward spiral that’s affecting the entire board, and saying “The only opinions that matter are those of a small clique that uses a definition alien to the rest of the world” is hardly a good precedent to try and set, especially when the archive shows considerable (and continued) opposition to the hijacking, and from clearly more than just a single person.
>>97959284Todd is a stupid name to be honest. But it gets slow but regular traffic
>>97959293>the people
>>97959302>you still insist were all just one person just so you can say they don’t get to play any part in defining what the /osrg/ is
>>97959293Funny how all these people are apparently totes out there and you've somehow managed to get a census of their numbers but you still don't have enough retards to do your own thread.>B-but it was more active-When there was a retard causing a ruckus every single thread?I don't care if the IHOP I'm having breakfast at is "Quieter than it was before" if it's because they kicked out the drunk retard that kept challenging everyone to a fight in the car park.You want to prove how there's totes loads of you and you're not just one monumentally retarded subhuman trying to Clark Kent it until he makes it? Fuck off and make your own thread where you can talk about whatever gay shit you think is worth talking about.Cunt.
>>97959258>sondarn tootin, pardner! you give them boys a lickin'!lmao kill yourself you pathetic third world freak
>>97959293>I've stopped samefgging and the population dropped by half! lolYou keep missing the point after being told by two mods. Post about games you play. That's how you make communities about games.
>>97959273cool, there's /todd/ and /2eg/, and any other you could make!Have fun!>>97959293>What about the people who used the thread who rejectedtoo late to do anything except make a new thread, so why dont you?
>>97959240It is amusing you don't get what you've done to yourself and run around blaming on anything else you can halucinate.
>>97958097>in real, Gygaxian AD&D it's harmful.How so?>Nope, you're wrongYou can probably point me to where it lays out the time it takes to search to be only a round.>>97958679>Do you not understand what the statistic is meant for?I understand it, that's why I say it would rarely come up. If you're fighting in a corridor to narrow to swing your two-handed sword, you've fucked up. And even then, the table it's in is far too clunky and useless to be referenced during the game.
>>97959342Those are not mine. Once more y'all think everyone is one guy. Let me repeat once more for you dense motherfuckersI.DO.Not.VIST.OR.POST.IN.THE.ECHO.CHAMBER.
>>97959042>That's searching for means to openlol you still have to spend a full turn to search for itAlso players can simply declare they are going to be tapping walls as they go in whichever edition, od&d, B/X or 2eof course both LLMs and no-games don't know that so they erroneously state bullshit like >I have to telegraph the presence of secret doors (which makes the whole search a pantomime) or the players won't be searching for them almost ever, because it takes too long)LMAOI'm actually growing tired of all the winning and proving how retarded you osrgtards arefrom not understanding Basic math (pun intended) to not knowing how the game actually works and thinking 2e players can't tap walls because the rules don't mention how long it takes lol
>>97959354because 10 times the speed means one tenth the gameplay.>>97959362>black woman clapping emoji speechuh-oh, fishfag melty
Can someone go inform the mods on IRC that this retard is still bitching about them telling him no already?If there totes are 4-5 of them and it's not just one subhuman doing his "Rootin'est tootenest cowboy in the wild wild west" impression then they'll be able to IP ID it and in that case fair enough.If it is all one retard though then they'll hopefully nuke him from orbit.
>>97959324>Where did all the people who lost faith in this board go? Why aren't they making more threads for me to flood with shitposts when it shows too much activity and I begin to consider it a threat? They've left. Most won't be coming back.The wild thing is there's still enough people here to fill up the OSR throwdown threads with posts explaining why you're objectively wrong, even after months of your hijacking/flooding/trolling/etc.
>>97959366great, so stay away since youre so tired?
>>97959354do not engage with that retard, he doesn't play games, and he most certainly used an AI to generate all that nonsense that doesn't hold even to slightest scrutiny from anyone actually playing gamessee >>97958858 and >>97959366
>>97959381Damn, what were those spikes in namefags in 2017 and 2020?
>>97959229We aren't in the /osrg/ so fuck off back to your hugbox retard.
>>97959401April Fool's events. Forced names. I think one was everyone was put on candy teams.
>>97959378Wait, you guys really do believe everybody who criticizes you is one guy, it's not just a rhetorical technique to annoy people? lmfao
>>97959404the entire discussion is centered on /osrg/ you absolutely buffoon.Are you really this stupid, or...?
Anyone got the 8th printing of Castles & Crusades?
>>97959404NTA, but those guys keep coming into non osrg threads to tell you what isn't allowed in the echo chamber. They are so desperate to make the new echo chamber definition the only one allowed anywhere on tg
>>97959415The mods can clear it up easily, since theyve already dealt with this person before.
>>97959417We aren't in /osrg/. We aren't talking about /osrg/. We're talking about the word "OSR." The fact that your walnut brain is so small you can't comprehend this is actually incredible.
>>97959420Is it in the archive?
>>97959415If you look in their threads, they constantly accuse anyone among them who slightly disagrees with the pre-approved set of opinions of being fishfag, it's really funny.
>>97959415They really do, and seem to think I am the same guy faking how I type, for reasons.
>>97959431Archive only goes to 7th printing.
>>97959429Mods don't want to do their jobs normally, and they want to do them even less when "their jobs" is "disprove inane conspiracy theories that everybody on the board is one guy."
>>97959430>im going to chime in on a discussion that im not involved in!...seriously, are you actually disabled? why are you replying to me??
>>97959436Not just Thier echo chamber, they do it in every fucking thread OSR comes up in. At this point it's gotta be over a dozen posters they think is one guy
>>97959447ah, so you wont go to them for help, gotcha. is it because last time you did, they btfo you?
>>97959448Go back up the reply chain to the start you gibbering moron.
>>97959452I'm not going to go ask the mod team to confirm that your psychosis is false, no. If you want them to, go do it yourself, you lazy retarded ape. They won't do it because they have literally anything else to do with their time, including jacking off to MLP fanfic.
>>97959446When the new PDF share thread goes up ask there
>>97959466thanks, will do.
>>97959459>im not going to go to the mods again because they BTFO me last timeLOL, lmao, even
>>97959450Sure, but it's especially ironic that they put all this effort into hijacking a thread, and they can't even enjoy their own little culture bubble because they're constantly interpretting any slight deviation in opinion as proof of the enemy in their midst.Reminds me a lot of what you saw happen with SJW entryism.
>>97959546>we hate /osrg/ so much that we will obsess over them!go away. we dont care about your opinions. stay out of our house.
>>97959556
>>97959566nice, well played. the next step in your master plan?
>>97959450Oh yeah, totally got to be, ya'lls got to be dozens and dozens of hornswaggled folkses just plum tuckered out over them thar osrgeerers.
>>97959546They are a dying group and need to lash out. Its an extinction spiral
>I intentionally started a thread called "OSR Throwdown" where the OP is "I want to have an argument about OSR because I know I'll be told to fuck off if I post in /osrg/">But they're here, challenging me, persecuting me, they're obsessed, how could they come here, I was just minding my own business, I am but a smol bean who did nuffin to them ;_;You're a cunt and deserve to be fucked like one.
>>97959593>But they're here, challenging meNot the guy who made this thread, and I don't think anyone is holding any illusions about you providing any sort of challenge.It seems like arguing about this stuff is off limits in the /osrg/, which is why it's not happening there, and not because anyone is intimidated at all by any of your antics.Look above, and you can see how badly whipped you've been, including crying for your mommy. Want me to link you to your crying for your mommy posts?
>>97959184>3e isn't pre 3e so can't be OSR itself3e is pre 3.5e. The cut-off is between 3e and 3.5e because the OSR was born in reaction to 3.5e, as the dates show. Another proof is that C&C, the first OSR game, has many mechanics directly from 3e.So 3e is OSR.>>97959211>And you are not in osrg. It's not off topic in this thread or most OSR threads as ya know it's an OSR gameCorrect. So 3e is OSR. Thanks, Anon.
>>97959593I didn't start this one, but started the first because you trolls can't stop going off topic to rant and argue in every thread OSR or 2e gets mentioned. Oh and shadowdark now it seems.>>97959572
The reality of the situation is simple.Pic related.
>>97959631I accept your concession.
>>97959624No, why lie about this? Are you that hard up to troll?
>>97959624You can give up already.I bet you think you're being either funny or clever but it's just adding to the whole "Wow these little trolls like to sink low".
>>97959293>the peopleYou're literally the only one seething over it, fishfag. And you're not even a person, you're a subhuman, so that makes zero people.
>>97959640Yes, yes he is. Feel free to ignore him.
>>97959640Huh? What lie? 3e has always been part of the OSR movement. That's why there's so much of it in C&C, the fist OSR book ever published.
>>97959646I think we should start flagging him for trolling
>>97959646You've got nothing, as expected.I accept your concession.
>>97959659I sincerely believe that Fishfag is too low IQ to realize the point you're trying to make.He's just going to get mad and bitchy over it same as anything he doesn't have the intelligence to understand.You know, basic maths, how long decades are, second step effects, game design, doors clearly labelled 'Pull', that sort of thing.
>>97959662You've been proven wrong so now you want to go cry to the mods.lol what a bitch
>>97959662How long is a decade btw?
Yikes, that's some embarrassing samefagging.
>>97957935>B-but you can just make those rules up in 2e.You can, sure, that’s part of any TTRPG (and part of the better war game scenes in general) but you can also just use the relevant material from 1e or from your favorite retroclone. I know that’s basically what you said, and what you said is perfectly fine as an explanation for why you play 1e, but it’s also a great argument for why an OSR thread is better than a 1e AD&D thread or a 2e AD&D thread.Also, let’s be honest here for a sec, you actually do want to share a thread with 2efags and other foes. If you didn’t then you actually would make a 1e thread. Because OSR is a marketing term.
>>97959674>>97959674>so now you want to go cry to the mods.again. after they already btfo him lmao
>>97959668What a marvel of nature.
>>97959688So by your logic 5e is OSR too, you just have to import the necessary parts from AD&D!
>>97959689I wonder how many times he tried that and didn't post the screenshot of him getting raped by the mods.What a self-own that was. Marvelous.
These kind of death throws after being BTFO are always a treat to watch.>>97959415No, he's just stuck. He's sunk-cost fallacy trapped himself into repeating it endlessly, because the whole moral justification for their hijacking essentially hinges on only one person disagreeing with it.No one believes it at this point, but it doesn't matter since nothing can force them to admit that, and its seems like you really can continue a campaign on a lie indefinitely.
>>97959724Hi fishfag.
>>97959747A mildly amusing cadaveric spasm.
>>97959700If you’re stealing something from 5e to use in your OSR game, sure, yea. If you’re using AD&D material in your 5e game then that’s relevant in /5eg/. Even though 5e isn’t 1e, and 5e isn’t 2e, and 1e isn’t 2e.
>>97959415Look, either it's one guy or all of your mothers had cravings for the same brand of lead paint chips when they were pregnant with you.We know for a fact there's one shitter that's willing to lie, cheat, falseflag, faggot about and act fucking retarded in order to get what he wants, a full throated "No bad tactics only bad targets" untermensch.So why shouldn't we be suspect when we see posts going>I'm totes a new person and I also agree with [THING RETARD SAID]>Wow, I too am new to this thread and I also think he is right :)>Y'all a hootenannyin' 'bout them /osrg/ chuds? Well I reckon they be a bunch of low down varmints son, now let me go back to wranglin' lil' dawgies. Rawhide.ect, ect.He's been up to this for about 18 months by this point at least, given that's give-or-take when he first earned his nickname.Either it's one retard, or one retard and his discord programmer socks brigade.And neither of them have, even once mind you, contributed to any thread they've been in in a constructive manner.
>>97959674Different guy son. I just suggested flagging trolls. The mod guy was someone else.Y'all are deep in your delusional ideology
>>97959724Fishfag = ESL subuman retard proven once again.>death throwsdeath THROES, subhuman>sunk-cost fallacyWe've already explained to you a million times how that doesn't mean what you think it means.>their hijackingNice projection. Even the mods told you /osrg/ has been the same for over ten years when you went to cry to them.>continue a campaign on a lieWhat fucking pidgin is that expression from?>only one person disagreeing with itIf you want to pass for more than one person you'll have to learn the English language, stop misusing the same words over and over again, stop repeating the same schizo theories, falling into the same verbal tics, and stop throwing sperg tantrums over the same autistic fixations (/osrg/ and the BrOSR and ACKS and Night Lands).
Ah we have come full circle to both sides now calling each other fishfag.
>>97959853I say I say I say boy, them osergers sure are sumthin else.
>>97959809lolsaving this for posterity
>>97959892If nothing else this entire saga has been a fine stream of endlessly entertaining insults directed towards a perfectly deserving target.You can really tell when something pisses fishfag off when he starts hooting and raving about how everyone who makes fun of him is an internet tough guy having a meltdown.Despite neither description being accurate.
>>97959853>son>ya'lli reckon ah'll have some cornbread and beans like peepaw used to make...Do you really think your fake hillbilly """accent""" is fooling anyone?btw..."flagging for trolling" is going to the mods, bozo
>>97959966lolKinda wonder how long we're going to have to wait this time around for you to be so embarrassed by your own posts that you try to claim it was a false flag because people keep reposting your cringey-ass meltdowns.>You can really tell when something pisses fishfag off when he starts hooting and raving about how everyone who makes fun of him is an internet tough guy having a meltdown.lolYou actually thought saying this would protect you? You're already feeling ashamed and you realized it's forever in the archive? You'd have to do much better than the baby's first desperate trick of saying your imaginary fishfag is the only entity that could find humor in watching you cringe at your own posts once you've sobered up from your meltodwn mode. Don't even know why you thought it'd work; It has never worked on anyone before, and frankly it's never gonna work ever. Looks like it's not gonna be a long wait at all.
>>97960553>You're already feeling ashamed and you realized it's forever in the archive?lmao you wrote that as one of your usual false flags and even admitted to it, fishfag
>Claims he's totes not fishfag>Always reverts back to manifesto posting about how everyone except him is having a meltdown any time he thinks his arch nemesis might be present because clearly only a single person could take the piss out of him>Thereby revealing himself to be fishfag.It's like poetry, it rhymes.
>>97960617>is so embarrassed by his past posting that he now claims it was a falseflag>continues to have near-identical meltdowns with the same level of cringeYou know that cringe feeling you're having now looking at your own post? That's what everyone else feels the first time they look at it.
>>97960665Fishfag, you're the laughing stock of the whole of /osrg/. Your attempt to claim that we're all just one person flies in the face of /osrg/ having real conversations, unlike your past hijack threads in which you talked to yourself in one-liners devoid of any actual content, in your signature broken English pidgin.
>>97960729You're talking to an actual retard subhuman who convinced himself that the ACKStec PDF was not a real play report, but a 200+ page hoax all written to get at him. He's far beyond the reach of reason.
>>97960745I know, but it still drives him mad that he got caught out. Like the other Anon said>>97960639fishfag is like poetry, it rhymes.
>97960729>97960745>97960772We'll see how you feel about these posts once you've cooled down.I do have to say, saying fishfag wrote >>97960553 is some truly beautiful irony, because you're at the point that you're calling yourself fishfag.
>I'm not mad, you're madIf you weren't mad you wouldn't have spent the last 18 months chasing after any (supposed) traces of AzteCKS GM while screaming incoherent ESL versions of lines cribbed from Captain Ahab.Fucker was gracious enough to not even reference you when posting his campaign write up.Instead of taking it on the chin and maybe earning a spoonful of respect in doing so, you chose the path of being a dogshit-smearing bastard and it's entirely your own fault that the stink has become directly associated with your presence rather than the things you try to smear it on.
>>97960519That is the wrong accent son, Peepaw and meemaw is deep south or Texas. We use papaw and mamaw. Your trolling aside cornbread or hoecakes and a mess of green beans is good eating though
>he's starting to rave at someone that only exists in his own brainThis thread is really gonna be a treasure trove for the future.
>>97959228My games have used it for years. Are you actually slow in the head, or?
>>97960832Fuck off, third worlder
>>97960985Son, you are the one who keeps getting details about an American accent and culture wrong.
>>97961064You're a literal third worlder pretending to be a hillbilly so you don't get called out. It's laughable and pathetic
>>97958693>gold-for-XPGold for xp? That's a little backwards isn't it.
>>97961064since you live in appalachia you should have no problem showing us a timestamped pic of some nature near you!
>>97961349Experienced adventurers get higher salaries, of course.
>>97962007Sure how about my creek
>>97961064>keeps going on I did that once you fuckwit. You do have a persecution complex. Any criticism and you hyperbolate it into everyone who is also somehow just the same anon. No amount of grass will unfuck your personality disorder.
Kinda unrelated but going though pics on my phone I found some of the time possums invaded my house. They were cute little fuckers though.
>>97963446Son, I replied to your direct comment to me. Which was a reply to a repose from another post. If you are gonna interject yourself into a reply chain you need to make it clear you are NTA or it's just one person with the same name responding
>>97963453Which posts do you think are me? Go find them in this thread.
>>97962988And yet you don't have a timestamp, curious
>>97963453>Son you aren't fooling anybody with this shit you dumb fuck
>>97963586The first image has a timestamp. The image loaded sideways. Make it larger the timestamp is in the upper right side. It reads APR 29,2026 7:18 AM
>>97963527Dude, you responded to me in a long reply chain. If you got confused that is not on me.
>>97963586You gotta zoom in.
>>97963608You can't identify who you think are all the same person but keep thinking it. Reflect on this and consider suicide for the betterment of everyone around you.
>>97963774Son, you responded to my comment that was to someone in a long reply chain. If you don't say NTA on here it looks like you were the OG poster.You can not be this dense.
