>combat is a fail stateWhy do OSR boomers constantly repeat this meme as if they don't try the same 5 tactics every time, copied from Star Wars and similar movies. Nothing they do in OSR D&D games is clever or original. It's always "uhhh dude I bribed the guards I'm so much more clever than you and then when I did get in a fight and started losing I pulled out my OIL FLASK and poured it on the floor and no one could follow me because if you jump over burning oil you die instantly, it's like Greek fire AKA a nuclear weapon" do people actually fall for this shit?
>>97967404I think combat as a consequence isnt exactly exclusive to OSR. Generally its a pretty good philosophy because forced combat encounters feel more like a chore rather than something naturally taking place.But you don't care, you just want to act like a faggot on the internet for attention.
>>97967456>Generally its a pretty good philosophy because forced combat encounters feel more like a chore rather than something naturally taking place.If players want to find another way out of it, they're welcome to.But OSRfags act like it's badwrongfun for a group of Vikings to attack your town and if you can't move at 200x speed and 360-surround the town in burning oil and then bribe the Viking leader to surrender with fake gold you carved out of wood and painted with paint that doesn't exist, you're a shit DM. They're basically on par with the LE NAT20 I FLAP MY ARMS AND FLY wackadoos, who they ironically nurse a deep hatred for. I think Horseshoe Theory can honestly be applied to TTRPG player belief spectrum as well as politics.
>>97967404"Combat is a fail state" is historical revisionism by theatrefags of all ages to rewrite history. Don't believe their lies.
>>97967404>Why do OSR boomers constantly repeat this memeThey don't. Fake grognards say shit like this because they think it makes them sound wise and intelligent. As if they were scholars who studied the ancient art of roleplaying, under Gygax himself, the one man whom they believe had perfected game design and TTRPGs so completely that he is the only person who should ever be listened to when it comes to how to play games. They also conveniently ignore that Gygax tried creating more games after getting kicked out of TSR and that they all sucked, because they like to believe that he retired on top and that he went down in history as the greatest game designer to ever live, beloved and envied by all in the industry. Because they are retarded.
Combat IS the literal fail state...You don't have the 'epic' fight with the bbeg... you sneak into his war tent while disguise as prostitute and slit his Throat while sleeping!THAT'S How you end the war!
>>97967523>he needed to dress up as a prostitute to sneak into someone's tent to kill themGiven the rest of us can dress normally and achieve the same result I think you might just be trying to magical realm us, bro.
>>97967456Combat as a Consequence makes more sense if you're running a game like Call of Cthulhu, where the party is going to be a handful of detectives and academics digging into a mystery, and a lone cultist with a knife could reasonably just up and kill someone if they're not careful. It makes less sense in any game that has a dedicated class named 'Fighter', 'Warrior', or 'Fighting-man', because why would the game include a type of character whose sole purpose was to fight monsters if fighting monsters was considered a failure.The only time 'combat is a fail state' makes sense is if everyone in OSR games always played Thieves and Magic-Users, which would allow them to do all of their favorite tricks of bribing enemies or using the environment to their advantage, but also give them a bunch of other strict mechanical benefits for non-combat purposes. You know who's really good at killing sleeping enemies? The classes that can magically put people to sleep or Move Silently. And yet the same people who push combat as a fail state are also the type who sincerely believe that anything other than a male human fighter is special snowflake bullshit.
>>97967404>You have all these tools for combat from your class but if you end up in combat is a fail stateI saw the video recently and I think there is a difference between Level 1-2 Characters sneaking around because they can die to anything and level 3-4 being more bold. People liked combat back then and still like it now, being cautious is just up to the players. Even in Lost Mines of Phandelver you could have your party die to the first encounter due to lucky rolls from the GM and that was the introductory adventure to 5e.
>>97967549In real life, self-defense experts teach that de-escalation and avoiding fights is the ultimate tactic. Even if you can single-handedly win any fight that comes your way, one wrong move can mean you kill a guy. He stumbles and trips down a flight of stairs, he gets knocked out with a perfect punch and then falls and cracks his head open on a coffee table. He's a mental midget who reaches for a gun and starts firing blindly at you and everyone near or behind you. All of these things mean months, maybe years, of legal trouble, possible jail time, and worse.But that's real life, not D&D. Realistically, there would be no dungeons with hordes of gold awaiting some wandering murderhobo. Historically, a few weeks of trudging through the wilderness with soggy boots would have your hero dying of various poop diseases and boot rot. You'd be better off simply getting a job at a local farm or apprenticing under a tradesman instead of taking up a sword. But that's not the fucking game we're agreeing to play because we're not all pedantic faggots, are we? We're playing a game where knights and wizards and dickass thieves kill monsters in dungeons and take their loot.
>>97967404COPIED?!?! fucking RETARDRETARD ALERT CLASSyeah lucas invented the real asymmetrical warfare and everything that doesnt show up in star wars is simply a derivative of his teachings.anywaygo bait your hook with sumfin better
>>97967404"Combat as fail state" is a reflection of stakes and risk. If you are playing a system where risk mirrors combat in real life? Yeah, it's a fail state unless you've strongly adjusted the odds in your favor.
>>97967614>If you are playing a system where risk mirrors combat in real life?Like what?
>>97967617
>>97967648Genuinely impressed you had an answer and a correct one at that. Carry on, friend.
>>97967600I didn't say that was the origin of it, I said that that's where boomers learned it from.
>>97967404>words words wordsToo late, anon. I have already thrown a flask of burning oil at you. Now smoke is filling the room and you can't stop coughing for long enough to form a sentence. None of what you just said actually happened.
>>97967404>combat is a fail statewho are you quoting?
>>97967648I remember reading a forum post about this circa 2018 or so where a GM complained that his players were always targeting the enemies' heads. As if people wore helmets for no reason.
>>97967523If combat is a failstate, why do so many games work to make it fun? Why did OD&D work so hard to make it fun?
>>97967404>why do idiots say stupid things?Why the fuck wouldn't they?
>rules for fantastic medieval WARgames campaigns and shiet>Combat is le badRetard
>>97967404>Why do OSR boomers constantly repeat this memeBecause OSR combat is so bad that you want to avoid it at all cost.
>>97967912This guy >>97967523
>>97967404>yet another thread seething about OSRJust give in to your urges and suck some balding grey-haired nerd dick already, we get it.
>>97967404>Why do OSR boomers constantly repeat this memeOSR x-gen here. We don't. Combat is not a "fail state", D&D is literally a wargame, so combat is one of its two core mechanics, the other one being procedural exploration. See picrel.It's plebbit retards such as yourself who believe and repeat that bullshit.
>>97967404There's a certain type of neckbeard that likes to feel they've won by outwitting the DM. The DM devised a cool dwarven clockwork dungeon? Run the opposite way. There are some monsters ahead? Waste an hour going around them or negotiating. NPC is reasonable and friendly? Kill them. These guys also waste a bunch of time by interrogating every detail to try to catch the DM contradicting himself. It's honestly best to just not play with them. Game with people who just want to see interesting stuff happen.
>>97967404Who are you quoting?
>>97967474No one acts like this.
>>97967523boring
>>97967648nobody's gonna play your dead game
>>97967474Literally who are you quoting
>>97970007It's a good shock therapy term to people who are used to facing intentionally balanced encounters. It's a wargame where you are "the average Brettonian", and "the average Orc" is a deadly threat to you. If you slam your stack headlong into their stack apropos of nothing, you are taking a phenomenal risk. Thus, a successful raid is reliant on a solid plan to minimize risk, one of the largest parts thereof being to not get caught in encounters you haven't prepared for and secured the advantage beforehand.So, yes, "unplanned encounters are a fail state" would be more strictly accurate, but it doesn't have the same punch.
>>97967404Have you tried playing games?
>>97970237Your schizoid babbling is still nonsense. Players do not control what they encounter and it is thus not their fault (failure) if they are forced into combat.
>>97967537Look, dude. I don't make the rules. The banana hammock gives me a +4 on my sneak checks so this is just how we have to do it.
>>97970453>Players do not control what they encounter Are you going to the Tomb of Count Raculad or the Nilbog Mountains, anon?
>>97967523In a good game this is possible, and will involve a lot of gameplay or narrative building to accomplish.However, consider the following>BBEG is a boogeyman invented by the local state to rally a major escalation against their rival - like Hannibal was invented by the Romans >You entering Hannibal's tent you're just murdering a useful idiot and hindering the local state's plans>You're now secretly hunted by the state after claiming responsibility>You are not informed of this
>>97967404Because Gold = XP, so they were incentivized to maximize profit and minimize risk while in newer editions, you are encouraged to slaughter those walking xp bags beyond some vague guidelines for GMs to award some equivalent xp if they don’t just monkey mode every encounter
>>97970453No, he's correct and you are genuinely retarded and I assume you don't actually play games
>>97970453Sounds like someone didn't have an escape route prepared.
>sounds like someone doesn't have an escape route prepared
>>97972538>still doubling downSee, you're being a perfect exemplar of the mindset and why people go to so much effort to try and break it in prospective old school players. You implicitly assume that because the encounter exists, that it it is intended to be fought, there and then. This is not the case in the old school. Encounters are not placed for pacing, they are not balanced for the party to overcome, and the first objective of every encounter is to not suffer the end of your campaign. Consequently, a stand-up fight is very, very rarely the best solution to an encounter, especially one that arrives unexpectedly.
>>97967576All 5e modules ive seen start and end with an intentionally lethal crawl for some reason. Everything between is small potatoes but for some reason they just really like to try to punish you early
>>97971114>Because Gold = XPThat was far shorted lived than people like to pretend.
>>97972636Your attempts to be witty only paint you as a pedantic faggot. Being able to circumvent combat does not mean it is the only expected way to engage with the game.When you say shit like this?>Encounters are not placed for pacing, they are not balanced for the party to overcomeIt tells everyone that you are the kind of guy who thinks he can rules lawyer and weasel his way through every single obstacle and challenge. Meanwhile, your GM is wondering why he even invites you when you're such an annoying cunt about playing a game of pretend.
>>97972740Maybe so but it has origins from somewhere rather than appearing from thin air.
>>97972751>attempts to be wittyA truly impressive misreading.>Being able to circumvent combat does not mean it is the only expected way to engage with the game.When every single round of melee combat on even footing has a roughly 20% chance of character death, you learn very quickly to spend as few rounds as possible in that state.>thinks he can... weasel his way through every single obstacle and challengeWelcome to the fucking OSR. Get out of the box or get used to rolling new characters. You seem to be deeply upset that the key to a WARgame campaign is to treat it like a protracted WAR and not get into fights you might not win. In later editions, that is handled by the GM. In the OSR, it is up to the players to manufacture those conditions, or failing that, to decline that engagement.
>>97972912>I am better than you because I have never played a character past level 2
>>97972925It's precisely because of that attitude that people get past level 2. And players who didn't start at high level carry those lessons forward into the rest of their careers as they delve deeper and into greater challenges, because reckless overconfidence in your newfound abilities is the surest way to starting all over.
>>97972912You sound like somebody who hasn't actually ever read many OSR modules.
>>97973026And you sound like somebody who hasn't actually played OSR. Here's your hint: those modules aren't meant to be cleared in one delve.
>>97972969>Hey guys look at this great meme game that definitely happened, believe me it happened, I even wrote down a place it happened and it's where the special forces trained, it happened>My party got locked in a dungeon! Did they have a choice? No. >Could they go around this obstacle? Nope. DM wanted them to go through it, so there was no alternative route!>We got funneled down a hallway that was set on fire! Did we have a way to prevent this or deal with it? Nope!>Did we strategize like normal people did? Nope! We screamed and held our hands over our faces like normal people do and not like people trying to exaggerate in a story>Did we have any way to avoid injury, such as ways to find cover ourselves? Nope! But the Kobolds did! They fired at us through murder holes and launched molotovs at us with impunity!>Did we get a chance to retreat? Sort of! But when we retreated, sacrificing our shit so we can run, we just ended up in a second Kobold lair!>Oh and we talked like normal people, saying things like, "You want I should burn us all up instead of them?">So then what happened next? We were given a way out of the dungeon to a lower part of the dugeon where we fought flame demons that killed half of the party>Oh, well at least you got treasure and levels? Nope, we had to go back out the way we could so we died.Picrel is my response if this bullshit story were true.
>>97967750>>97967986Mythras+4D roleplaying solves pretty much everything at my table.
>>97967648This game is S-tier if you completely ignore the culture system and instead have players take career skill points twice. It doesn't make any sense even inside the milieu of the game.
>>97973490And this is why D&D turned into storygame bullshit. Turns out that the market of people ready to fight a war against an opponent with human intelligence that is just as dedicated to not playing fair as the PCs is pretty small.
In my old D&D group there we 2 players who just outright refused to do anything conventional and always tried hairbrained plans there we no mechanics to govern. It lasted all of 3.5. It was not until 4e that they learned to just stick with their mechanical abilities.
>>97967549And yet all the popular CoC modules have unavoidable combats that make you instalose the scenario if you lose or avoid them.
>>97970237All WFRP modules have unavoidable combats that make you instalose the scenario if you lose or avoid them.
>>97974852>tranime avatarfag>being incredibly smug about missing the point entirely to talk about a different system entirelyClassic
