>>97973350
>>97973388
(This is Ventrue propaganda)

>>97973425
(This is Lasombra propaganda)

>>97973425
It's really not. I was approaching the word count limit so I'll expand on the Lasombra's internal clan culture.

Lasombra do generally torture their future childer, the idea is simple. Drag them down to rock bottom, to prove that they're resilient enough to handle whatever unlife throws at them. They also want to utterly destroy their mortal attachments, so no such sentiment holds them back. This means they usually kill off family members, cause their financial ruination, knock them down from a position of power. One example PC in clanbook Lasombra Revised is an undead paraplegic because his sire decided to make him suffer a horrible car accident before his embrace.

Lasombra clan structure is far less centralized, with many factions, but chief among them is the Amici Noctis. This informal fraternity is comprised entirely of Lasombra of at least one century of age, and it's invite only. They serve as the closest thing to a regulatory body as the Lasombra have/

The aforementioned Courts of Blood are a real thing. Rather than absolute, lawless teamkilling, the Lasombra decided to regulate it. They place great emphasis on strength, and thus, unless you're in very poor standings with the Amici Noctis, you can usually justify yourself with "but I won", provided you can prove it was by your own might and/or guile, rather than a fluke or outside intervention. Fail to do so, and a member of the Amici Noctis will reclaim the blood themselves. By diablerizing you.

They're not reasonable guys. You can argue their system is excellent at shitting out effective psychopaths, but that's about it. Just look at the Sabbat. You call that a win?

Isn't the worst clan to be embraced list is like...
Lasombra
Gangrel
Followers of Set

Lasombra because they ruin your life and make you miserable to test you before embracing you if you don't kill yourself.
Gangrel because they embrace and abandon you.
Followers of Set because they also ruin you like Lasombra but only if you have already fallen into their clutches and not before.

>>97973421
Early bake

>TQ
Sidhe

>>97973421
Jim made the perfect ecstatic untill the NWO got him. I wonder who John Kay would be.

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>bottom BF got shovelheaded and wound up becoming a lasombra

>>97973466
> You can argue their system is excellent at shitting out effective psychopaths, but that's about it. Just look at the Sabbat. You call that a win?
Arguably, yes it is. The fact that the Lasombra continue to exist into the modern nights, and continue to hold positions of power at that, indicates that something in the clan culture works, and works well at that. Entire clans have been (mostly) wiped out and replaced, and yet the cartoonishly evil Lasombra survive - thrive even! It means they must be doing something right.

>>97973421
>Satyr, Ecstatic, Toreador, or Fianna; what sort of of supernatural creatures are your favorite celebrities/musicians? (You dont need to restrict yourself to the prior examples)
Sons of Discord

>>97973623
Now you are the bottom bf.

>>97973623
>>97973801
Could be worse, he could have awakened or become a Tzimisce

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>>97973853
>Tzimisce

>>97973450
If a man is a miserable pile of secrets, then are clan Lasombra not the epitome of mankind?

>>97973882
Kek, I was thinking a little bit of that scene but also of getting turned into a dildo chair. Goddamn what a weird scene this was

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>>97973900
>Goddamn what a weird scene this was
You can't argue with the results.

>>97973882
>>97973900
>>97973904
wtf is this?

>>97973933
It's the Promethean Clay merit in action.
From, season 4 episode 1

>>97973886
It's one of those worder order things. Mankind is a miserable little pile of secrets. The Lasombra are a little pile of miserable secrets.

>>97973709
I agree, but I don't consider just surviving to be that high of a threshold. Only 2-3 clans, depending on what you think the truth of the Trujah is, have actually been usurped and destroyed. Most clans have survived and thrived without relying on the dumpster fire that is the Sabbat.

Both the Lasombra and Tzimisce saw that the times were changing, and rather than change like most clans did, they vehemently put their feet down and forced into existence a sect that would allow them to keep getting up to their usual tricks.

The big problem is that the Sabbat itself is honestly kind of a joke. It claims to dedicate itself entirely to an existential war with the Antediluvians but can't beat the effete, cosmopolitan, preening Camarilla. The only claimed Ante kills it has to its name are from before it was even a sect. (and it's 0-2 not 2-0, but they don't know that.) More pressingly for the Lasombra, they don't actually have much real institutional control, precisely because it's so decentralized. Between the Black Hand, Inquisition, Nomad Packs, the various political factions, and the many Lilith worshippers and Infernalists, it's a building constructed entirely of fifth columns. Perhaps this is all by design, after all the Lasombra are highly individualistic so who cares about having clan-wide rulership, make an environment where each Lasombra can be their own petty king. Fine enough, but less impressive when the sect as a whole is entirely unfit for its stated purpose.

>>97973933
From is a Lost-esque horror mystery thriller series where a bunch of guys get stranded in a village outside of reality essentially. It's pretty good, season 1 is quite kino. I'm not a huge fan of 2 and 3 but they drive the mystery pretty well. Unlike Lost which went on forever it seems From actually has somewhat of an idea for where to place the ending as main cast members actually die and people learn tangible things about the situation

>>97973970
>and the many Lilith worshippers
Ahi hay lilitu

>>97973950
from what?

>>97974037
I can't answer your question now. I gotta go.

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>>97974082
Belial's Brood did nothing wrong.

>>97974114
>Belial's Brood did nothing wrong.
They commited the greatest sin of all: being boring as fuck.

>>97974114
The Strix did nothing wrong.

>>97974137
They somehow became the "main antagonist" in modern nights in 2e rather than staying mostly in Requiem for Rome. That's plenty wrong.

>>97974347
The Julii fucked everything up by calling the Strix into being, and died off to leave them as every other Clan's problem.

>>97974370
>calling the Strix into being
Bold of you to assume...

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>>97974370
>died off

>>97974370
more likely the otherway around. the julli probably got vampirism from the strix and couldn't keep up their end of the bargin (whatever that was) but because of the whole clan turning kindred thing in vtr the strix don't get that the other kindred had nothing to do with that

is what i would say if they didn't later reveal that the strix don't know their own backstory as well and are just hedonistic fucks

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I tire of reminding people here that Tzimisce don't have to look monstrous and Path of Metamorphosis Tzimisce are actually a minority in the clan
They can make themselves and others look as beautiful as they want and can even work as a supernatural surgeon
This is just like fishmalk situation

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>>97974494
>even work as a supernatural surgeon

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>>97974494
>I tire of reminding people here that Tzimisce don't have to look monstrous and Path of Metamorphosis Tzimisce are actually a minority in the clan
yes, but there stereotype of the clan is still evil as fuck in way most other vampires stereotypes rarely are
>The Tzimisce clan is renowned for its evil. Among the most renowned of this line Vlad Tepes, the Impaler, who split from the clan and the sect. Tepes is especially infamous for his cruelty, but this trait is common among the members of the clan.
>Tzimisce, indeed, affect a cold contempt for the lesser creatures who provide them with food and fodder, and even other vampires are at best second-rate beings
>Eldritch and alien, the Tzimisce are a senescent clan of rotting prominence.
> Mystics of the Clan study a philosophy of metamorphosis, seeking to discover what lies beyond the state of vampirism. An alien attitude of spiritual secularism characterizes many Tzimisce. Young members of the Clan often find themselves detached from the historical role of the Fiends as terrifying landed lords, and throw themselves wholly into a cause of their own choice, whether as Sabbat zealots, fleshcrafted horrors, or transcendental koldun sorcerers.
>They can make themselves and others look as beautiful as they want
yes but inhuman beauty takes more skill than being Monstrous and it's still inhuman
>and can even work as a supernatural surgeon
here however you are wrong because fleshcrafting can not heal! the books have stated that several times and every edition features at least one statment about how the discipline itself is evil and fucks with your head. now the reason as to why it's evil changes every edition but vtm never really dropped the fact that it's inherently evil

putting the last quotes in a picture because i ran out of space

like i get that people might want there to be more depth to the tzimisce because they are unique in this space, but white wolf never cared to make them more than evil mcevil guys

why does paradox keep pushing thinbloods as if anyone gives a shit about them? are they like a writers pet group?

>>97974578
Most oppressed type of vampire, therefore the best. 100% chance that was the thought process.

I do like thinbloods, though not the V5 version. They're also just not PC material, unless you've got a table masochistic enough for an all-thinnie game. They're an interesting thing to exist out there, and I'm even fine with some having reduced weaknesses giving them edge advantages against normal vampires. The wankery with special blood magic though? Nah, miss me with that shit.

>>97974573
I was wondering why you are talking about healing, then I realized I wrote just surgeon instead of plastic surgeon. That was meant to be about modifying others' looks not about healing
IIRC yeah Tzimisce that work like that are very rare but so are Metamorphosis ones, there aren't that many that walk around looking like Andrei. And using Vicissitude for manipulation isn't a good act either

>>97974599
>I was wondering why you are talking about healing, then I realized I wrote just surgeon instead of plastic surgeon. That was meant to be about modifying others' looks not about healing
yeah that's fair given that this is pretty much the entire black hand's use for the clan

but i also seen a shit ton of trannies who talk about actually using Vicissitude for playing a supernatural doctor and how the clan get's a bad rep only because of transphobia as if white wolf didn't had a actual trans vampire in the inconnu who was presented in a positive light with the text not even misgendering the girl once which is more respect than what white wolf given to a lot of other things

so you kinda triggered my ptsd and to be honest i wanted to make a collection of "this shit is inherntly evil" quotes for a while

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>>97974494
Ah yes, behold, all these beautiful and completely normal tziggers! Each of them runs an ethical plastic surgery business and would NEVER have a bunch of human furniture back in their haven.

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>>97974624
kek

Is there such a thing as “too far” for a tzimisce?

>>97974693
Considering their Antediluvian currently has more in common with a fungus than a normal vampire... I'm going to say no.

Maybe the real Azi Dahaka was the gargoyles we made along the way.

>>97974624
Reminder Beckett became a Bride of Dracula, the skilled plastic surgeon Kindred of the Anarch Clan Tzimisce who became infamous exclusively for his misunderstood progressive views.

>>97974796
>Reminder Beckett became a Bride of Dracula
Oh, fuck, even Beckett's trans now?

>>97974804
nah they made dracula Bi just like strahd in dnd 5e

>>97974804
Men can be Brides too, chud!

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>>97974804
>>97974807
>>97974808

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>>97974808

>>97974578
Because their ass is hard locked into the street level angst side of things.

>>97974693
no that's actually the difference between lasombra and tzimisce

lasombra can actually DIE if they fuck up a court scandal while the tzimisce can turn still living orphans into dresses or fuse with their childe against their will

I've been meaning to ask but what is the official reason the Camarilla suppresses anything Golconda related rather than just not giving a shit about it or rolling their eyes at it?

>>97975191
don't want people to have false hope, salubri connection making people believe that it's actually infernal, if your pawns are looking into golconda they aren't spending less time being your pawns

and if golconda turns out to be real then the vampire in question might be dangerous (the no vampire weaknesses being called out in at least one book as the reason why it's supressed) or you will be seen as lesser for not having looked for it

>>97975202
>dangerous (the no vampire weaknesses being called out in at least one book as the reason why it's supressed)
I mean I figured it was something like not wanting rivals to get a leg up that you can't match but what's the source for this quote?

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>>97974578
>are they like a writers pet group?
Unironically yes. Remember that the OG V5 writers were all part of the same Swedish VtM LARP group whose motto was "Play to Lose" (where having hunters bust down your PC's doors and kill them all was the "ideal" end to a campaign), and thus made the book suit their playstyle and no one else's. Even after the Chechen Gay Genocide book incident that caused employee heads to roll, one of them (Karim Muammar) stayed on and was promoted to Lead Developer of WoD5 as a whole.

You can blame a lot of what went wrong with W5 (that wasn't on Achili) on him.

>>97975202
>or you will be seen as lesser for not having looked for it
Considering you are literally cursed by God otherwise, is that really the wrong assessment?

>>97974578
>>97975283
I do get the feeling that if they thought they could have gotten away with it, they would have destroyed the concept of clans entirely, or vilified them.

>>97975283
Who can I blame for HtR being a shittier version of HH?

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What klan would they be

>>97975283
>he thinks the Get Of Fenris are fundamentally white supremist because of their foundation in Norse paganism, despite their existence being one of redemption and honor culture
Hell of a rock for someone in his position to pitch.

>>97975283
I feel like there’s a significant portion of WoD writers who are obsessed with the concept that the players should always be oppressed. Which leads to weird situations where Hunters are hopelessly out matched by the creatures they’re hunting, but the Second Inquisition is killing vampires left and right.

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>>97975283
Get got done dirty in W5.

>>97974833
Baki is a quintessential sleeper Mage anime.

>>97975453
Alternatively, imagine Tzimisce keeping toadline revenant bloodlines and gradually fucking with them generationally to use them in ghoul dog fighting rings.

>>97975347
also Achili and Muammar those two been 100% in charge between the camarilla book and werewolf 5 at which point achili jumped ship

>>97975532
Alternatively, he was forced to leave the company after his slip-up of declaring that "Fianna is just a word," after vehemently defending the expunction of all culturally important words that come from non-European cultures from W5.

>>97975589
didn't he stay for nearly a year after that?

>>97975290
It's the age old problem where one guy in the same situation improving his lot in a way everyone else can do forces everyone to look inwards and ask if their problem is just that they suck. Usually people resolve that by going full crabs in a bucket even without a beast egging them on.

>>97975606
No, he left the company within a few months. I'm not saying that he was on-the-spot fired, but he was likely pushed out after it was feared that he had become toxic for the brand with his slip-up.

I am bored, so lets play mix-and-match with the different game lines. For example, what would the Sabbat be like if it were run by changelings? Or, if Mummy: the Resurrection had been more popular/influential, which Tribes would there be?

>>97975373
They tried to get rid of every single link to ethnicity when they remade the tribes as they considered the ethnic dimension to the game offensive. Except for the Get, the only tribe who is still linked to an ethnicity (somehow since werewolves don't reproduce anymore). So the tribe linked to white North Germanics are literally all irredeemable Nazis. They managed to make possibly the most offensive ethnic stereotype in the entire history of WoD in their effort to remove every element of that. Well done Paradox.

W5 has bombed so hard I think they might not touch the rest of the splats. You hear that magefags and fairyfags? W5 was so shit and sold so poorly that it saved you from the hands of the Vampire larpers. You're welcome.

Looking at the guy asking for shifter regen last thread, that makes me think that technically my Berserker has a greater regen than a fera. With the Spark of Life she can treat lethal wounds as bashing for the sake of healing, and with the Trollhide and Garou's Heart she can heal 4 bashing (thus 4 lethal) in a single combat turn compared to a garou's single box.

>>97975356
Ventrue ghouls because they're all feds.

>>97975870
>You hear that magefags and fairyfags? W5 was so shit and sold so poorly that it saved you from the hands of the Vampire larpers. You're welcome.
That would be the only W woofs ever got

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>>97975945

>>97975870
I was never a big WtA fan but when i was going through W5 i couldnt help but notice how utterly gutted the system was compared to older editions. Really what i hated was the fact Harano is now a tracker that pretty much kills your character by making them too depressed to keep playing.

Was Hauglosk a thing in older editions or is that some tacked on bullshit as another way to inevitably kill your character in W5?

>>97976079
Both Harano and Hauglosk (as well if I recall) were a thing briefly referenced in the background of older editions. As a kind of way of showing that Garou don't quite think like most of humanity and have 'Big Emotions'. It was never a tracker and it most certainly was never an inevitable character death track with no way to reduce it. So I guess W5 also got the worst implementation of a morality system in WoD as well. Well done paradox.

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>>97976136
Honestly, what were they thinking?

>>97976079
>>97976136
Hauglosk is brand new. The consequences of being a retarded rage-filled zealot who killed everyone who smells of the Wyrm were entirely narrative, as a character like that was extremely short-lived in WtA. As the people who worked on that game had a very hard time understanding how people play WtA and disliked the game a lot, they didn't seem to realise that WtA already punished retarded rage-monsters and added the Hauglosk counter as a mechanical incentive to not be an angry retard.

>>97976227
But the game is about being an angry retard in the first place... A woof doesn't have a Beast, he IS a Beast

>>97976267
Depends on how your ST wants to run it.
Some chronicles can feature werewolves solving every problem by killing everyone involved, but that just ends up attracting Pentex and creating more problems, leading to an endless cycle of carnage until the PCs end the chronicle on top of a mountain of corpses, having killed hundreds of people and scored a Pyrrhic victory for Gaia.
Other chronicles go in the direction of fighting the urge to be an angry retard and convincing the rest of the Nation to not be angry retards, so that werewolves can find a better way of fighting the Wyrm without retarded amounts of death and violence. This is what Jonas Albrecht's story is all about.

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I really do think W5 bombed so hard that it killed future projects for WoD5. They haven't released any main line games since and there is nothing announced in the pipeline. Here are the review figures for werewolf on Drivthrurpg the biggest independent ttrpg pdf and print on demand retailer. The figures speak for themselves.

W5 has harmed the tabletop side of WoD in the same way that Bloodlines 2 ruined their ambitions of having a hit video game franchise.

>>97976423
They keep insisting M5 is in the works though. Enjoy your paradox dice, it sounds like they're committed to at least ruining the Big Three. Hunter was a rushed, sloppy effort to undercut Vigil.

>>97976492
H5 is fucking hilarious. They want to kill CofD but even they had to admit HtV was better than HtR. So they just turned it into HtV but shittier.

>>97975283
>Werewolf died a horrible death so that the other splats wouldn't be corrupted and fouled by abject evil
Just like in the game.

>>97976492
More like an extremely rushed attempt to capitalise on the release of Hunter the Parenting and the Hololive HtV actual play.

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>>97975460
>Maximum SMASHED Schlatza

>>97976503
If nothing else, they realized Vigil had a far more broad appeal, and as it was one of the more popular CofD lines, I think they were concerned about its 2nd edition further stymying WoD5. The whole thing is very corporate-brained. Only a suit would look at an IP already suffering from balkanization and decide to split it again.

>>97976539
Both can be true, this was all happening at around the same time. Shilling V5 in the chat of the Hololive HtV stream was so shameless, it made my blood boil.

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If we ever get another reboot of the World of Darkness, I want Demon to be the flagship line.

>>97976680
You're definitely talking about Fallen style but Descent is underrated

>>97976707
Honestly, I feel that neither of them quite make satisfying portrayals of demons. Demon: the Fallen felt like an edgy version of Changeling: the Dreaming while Demon: the Descent felt like a Mage: the Awakening spin-off.

>>97976707
Not that guy, but I would like to see demons that are just evil spirits, not fallen angels. Although I guess Beast was kinda supposed to be that.

>>97976732
You are put in charge of the Demon: the X reboot/reimagining. What do you do to make it fun, engaging and most of all profitable?

>>97976732
I go to World of Darkness: Inferno for all my vanilla demon needs.

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>>97976741
While a lot of people deride Beast: the Primordial, it really is a game by, for, and about monsters.

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>>97976750
>What do you do to make it fun, engaging
Go full force on playing the role of diabolical "mustache-twirling" villains, spanning the gamut from Miltonian fallen angels to sadomasochistic Cenobites. Whether by nature or by choice, you exist to make the world a worse place.
It should include playstyle options for both mindless violence and long-term strategic politicking. Like Changeling: the Lost and Deviant: the Renegade, characters should be customized to fit the specific demonic archetype that a player desires.
Yet, how do we solve the issue of the Masquerade/Veil? If demons are a nigh-omnipresent force of evil, why aren't the streets filled with "Balrogs"?
>and most of all profitable?
Get someone to make an anime for it. It worked for Pokemon!

>>97976922
>If demons are a nigh-omnipresent force of evil, why aren't the streets filled with "Balrogs"?
Ever been to Detroit?

>>97976680
>>97976741
Like Beasts, demons should be compatible with other game lines, especially Mage (if it exists in this hypothetical reboot).
>>97976922
>Yet, how do we solve the issue of the Masquerade/Veil? If demons are a nigh-omnipresent force of evil, why aren't the streets filled with "Balrogs"?
Perhaps powerful demons must retreat to Hell the way that powerful vampires must torpor. On the subject of Hell, I would prefer mortal damnation not to be eternal but rather just unfathomably long, like Buddhist Naraka.

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Do you think the writers from Mage the Ascension were truly into occultism or real world cults? This is a fragment from the paradigms page in Liber Null
>To be able to operate in all spheres, the magician must master the art of either acting without belief or being able to temporarily invest belief in anything. The magician should be equally at home with a crozier, a paintbrush, a test tube, or a wand.

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>>97974573
>Vicissitudeitselfisevil.jpg
well, fortunately, Tzimisce dont give a shite about what others tell them, so your quotes wont stop the Tzimisce medic from existing.

>>97977124
That looks like the kind of book an hermetic or dreamspeaker would have a sleeper read to awaken

>>97976539
Hunter the Parenting came out way after H5 right? It was the hololive HtV popularity that got it rushed out the door. Honestly for what it is, outside of being soulless and jobber-coded, H5 is really not awful. Just pretty mediocre in comparison. It at least didn't do any lore raping or invalidate (or try to) vigil and reckoning. Unlike Werewolf

>>97973527
>John Kay
Anon... they were called Steppenwolf. I think it's obvious

>>97977296
HtP came out roughly a year before. HtP and the Hololive actual play both came out in '21. H5 came out in '22.

>>97976656
>Shilling V5 in the chat of the Hololive HtV stream was so shameless, it made my blood boil.
Oh yeah, that was a thing. It was funny as fuck seeing how desperate they were. Especially because they can't really shill Vigil because they killed it alongside CofD and can't shill H20 because they cancelled it before Onyx Path can make it happen.

>>97977124
Yes lol several of them are occultists and mention of one even makes a guy go berserk here
Also hallowed ones have some Chaos magic references

>>97976267
Werewolf is mostly a game a out picking when to be the angry murderous retard, you can't exist as that 24/7 without consequence. Hauglosk is an enforced consequence (that has no mechanical way to reverse it) that serves as a cheap morality system for retards. It's like the health and psyche bars for Disco Elysium only that it's permanent and with no ways of changing it
>Act like a depressed clown
+1 Harano
>Act like a might makes right retard
+1 Hauglosk
Etc

>>97977312
Holy shit HtP has really been out for 5 years? Damn, the more you know. Leave it to paradox I guess

>>97977074
>>97976922
>Yet, how do we solve the issue of the Masquerade/Veil?
I have an idea. The more humans (wielders of the creation power of God) know and understand, the less bullshittery demons can pull off. Thus, one of the goals of demons would be to make everyone illiterate stupid idiotic retards through degrading education systems, hunting down scientists and mages (especially those, who teach others), instigate keeping existing knowledge arcane et cetera. Thus on humanity knowledge level Zero demons can rule as gods themselves.
Varioys factions will have different opinions on how to do it - isolating humans or throwing them together into a chaotic retarded crowd, hunt down clever people or corrupt them into hyper-elitists, spread sex-drugs-&-rock'n'roll or give boost to hyperconservative religious movements, make Savonarola cults or intentionally help scientists to advance too fast so uncontrollable virus-weapon-maximum clonage will harm the world mightily because arriving too early for the world to be ready.
This will satisfy "do evil", "be powerhungry" and "social commentary on elites-corporations-modern education-other social problems" angles just perfectly.

>>97977124
On a scale of 1 (sheeple without a single conspiratorial thought in their heads) to 10 (crackpots whose entire lives are ruled by the occult), White Wolf were around 4 or 5, with Brucato as a 6.
They were more educated about some systems of magic than others. They had a decent handle on New Age mysticism, Thelema and chaos magic, but they knew sweet fuck all about genuine Eastern mysticism beyond martial art movie shit, and just as little about African-derived folk magic.
And while one or two of them might have dabbled in the occult like Brucato did, in the end, they still lived in the real world and had mortgages and shit and lived normal lives. They didn't submerge themselves in that shit.

>>97977399
>White Wolf were around 4 or 5
Seems like a balanced and nuanced take on the world in general. Did it go more extreme in CofD? I didn't enjoy Awakening nearly as much as Ascension.
>but they knew sweet fuck all about genuine Eastern mysticism beyond martial art movie shit, and just as little about African-derived folk magic.
I also felt they hated the Verbena paradigm but not sure why.
It would have been neat to get a book on Eastern magical systems and traditions. I don't remember one being released at least besides the Akashic one.
>>97977331
>hallowed ones have some Chaos magic references
Neat! Of that I had no idea, I will have to read it then.

>>97977399
>but they knew sweet fuck all about genuine Eastern mysticism beyond martial art movie shit
Honestly, as someone who read thousands of chapters of bullshit about Dao, Cultivation, Alchemy and Formations. They are probably more respectful of Asian Esotericism than most young asians.

>>97977340
>Tequila Sunset is a garou deep in harano
never thought of it like that

>>97977349
says 4 years on their channel, but it might've come out late in 21.

>>97977587
Disco: The Elysium was full of characters that could belong to a few splats

>>97977510
Do you think they could have made a tradition that represented eastern occultism better? And as someone interested in that, what is the best place to start with Eastern mysticism?

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I know it's not strictly WoD but does anyone here have any experience with Scion? How is it?

>>97977454
>Did it go more extreme in CofD?
Not really. nWoD was a lot more interested in providing a superior system that groups could use as a springboard for their own stuff, than it was in providing weird lore. At most, Awakening is a lot more focused on gnosticism, though it doesn't directly reference any Gnostic theurgy like the Books of Jeu.
>I also felt they hated the Verbena paradigm but not sure why.
It's mostly because it was Brucato's personal pet splat and little more than a vessel for his sexual fixations. Whenever he wrote the Verbena, he attributed far too much power and importance to them and made them all about anachronistic sex magic. Whenever other people wrote the Verbena, they tore down the self-aggrandising bullshit he wrote about them and turned them into amoral blood mages. The Verbena served as an attack vector for anyone who had beef with Brucato.

>>97977806
I think the Akashics are pretty respectful, if you wanted a full foray into Asian mysticism and occultism you'd read up a lot of shit about the 5 elements and other stuff that I think would better fit a paradigm than a tradition. It's hard to tell in the modern world anyway since a lot of the more historical asian culture died with communism and the murdered academics, so everything left is hearsay and exaggerated nonsense

>>97977913
Huh guess that makes sense, which is sad.
>>97977910
Read it and its pretty fun but the system is hopelessly broken. Nonetheless I've fantasized about running a Percy Jackson chronicle

>>97977806
They could have but it depends what you consider better.
Like, Eastern Mysticsm is like our Knights and Mages. You have your cliches which dominate 99% of the fiction and literature and then actual stuff. 90% are inspired by a few popular, dominating works. Like say Journey to the West, Investiture of the Gods and Dream of the Red Chamber

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>>97977910
I can talk about my experiences of the 1st Edition and as someone who loves rolling dice and large numbers, it is the best.

It is like Exalted's older brother. Instead of singular charms and excellencies, it is all about large dicepools and even larger auto-successes.
And unlike Exalted, you aren't likely to die because you didn't practice paranoia combat.

Best of all, authors know it and approve it. See pic.

>>97975283
>Swedish VtM LARP group whose motto was "Play to Lose" (where having hunters bust down your PC's doors and kill them all was the "ideal" end to a campaign),
Sweden was a mistake.

>>97976561
Sometimes, it's not enough to have a dog with down syndrome.
It must be a midget too.

>>97978278
>It is like Exalted's older brother.
>Exalted 2E release: March 2006
>Scion 1E release date: April 2007
>Exalted's older brother.
>older brother.
>older
I'm just teasing, of course. I love both games.

>>97976561
>Average Bone Gnawer's gathering in the ghetto

>>97978564
The average lifespan of those fucking things is like a year.

>>97978919
So that's why the local brujah/c*itiff are always with new ones.

>>97976561
But how good are they at mauling toddlers?

>>97976561
I'm convinced pibbles are a Tzimisce project to make stronger ghoul dogs for both attack and haven defense. Toadlines are just castoffs they sell to dumb mortals as a side hustle for additional resources to pour into the research. It's all hiding in plain sight.

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>>97979350
How fast, exactly, can said toddler crawl?

>>97976561
I have this crazy idea, hear me out. What kind of spheres would I need to breed pitbulls that could detect whether a child will awaken their avatar in the future and take them out before that can happen?

>>97979424
Tzitrash are behind another abomination.
Every. Fucking. Time.

>>97977241
>Write lore that gimps a lot of character concepts
>People ignore it to make those characters work at their table
... What did they expect?

>>97979424
Pitbulls are shit in terms of dog strength. You have dogs bred to actually fight wolves that can straight one-shot pitbulls with a neck bite.

>>97976172
>Honestly, what were they thinking?
They wanted to copy and paste the Forsaken dual morality gauge but when they fused it with the "sanity as health boxes" it resulted in character that really don't handle long term play.
The short lifespan might be intentional but that's probably giving them way too much credit.
Also thanks for reminding me of W5, I honestly forgot that edition exists and I need to steal some more shit from it.

>>97979454
Certainly Prime, Spirit, and Life

>>97979520
Has all of 5th edition been some retarded fusion of CofD and WoD that has no thought behind it along with confusing lore changes meant to get rid of all of the chuddier elements of the games? That's kind of sad

>>97979520
>I honestly forgot that edition exists and I need to steal some more shit from it.
Legitimately, what is worth stealing from?
I can't even steal their villain ideas. They made Pentex boring.

>>97979582
Some of the scenarios and characters in the book aren't half-bad, book of hungry names (one of the only good things to come out of that edition) is pretty good, etc. It's not all irredeemable dogshit, but what can you do
>This dog swallowed gold and pooped out poop that has a few pieces of gold in it, shocking!
It's a sad reality but whatever.

>>97979515
Clearly we must condct more experiments.

>>97979705
Stop making the world a worse place, mr tzitrash.

>>97979572
Wouldn't you also need Time?

>>97979712
No.

>>97979736
I don't think anon is trying to really see when the child would awaken, rather just see a simple tick mark of whether the child fated to awaken or has the potential to awaken, then go murder mode. I suppose you can make an argument for replacing Prime with Time?

>>97979454
The shit Progenitors get up to instead of curing cancer.

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>>97979788

>>97979582
>Legitimately, what is worth stealing from?
Low power items and shitty powers. Most of their stuff would be better used as free powers.

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>>97979885
Funny enough, Dracomorphs are popular (and can understand condescension and sarcasm)

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>tfw you match with a cute kindred on tender and she's a tzitrash

>>97977383
>I have an idea. The more humans (wielders of the creation power of God) know and understand, the less bullshittery demons can pull off. Thus, one of the goals of demons would be to make everyone illiterate stupid idiotic retards through degrading education systems, hunting down scientists and mages (especially those, who teach others), instigate keeping existing knowledge arcane et cetera. Thus on humanity knowledge level Zero demons can rule as gods themselves.
While this is a unique take (and an opinion that I agree with), I'm not sure that it would attract much of an audience. And if it did, they'd probably be insufferable , much like me .

>>97980020
Why would a Gangrel ever turn into a panther?

>>97980119
Why not?

>>97979788
Timetable says the masses aren't ready for it yet...and the Syndicate would give them the VE treatment

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>>97977074
>Like Beasts, demons should be compatible with other game lines, especially Mage (if it exists in this hypothetical reboot).
For example, they might be able to boost, synergize, or provide powers for other monsters. Perhaps with some sort of pledge/contract system, they may even be able to remove or dampen weaknesses.

>>97976922
>Go full force on playing the role of diabolical "mustache-twirling" villains
Or if you want a less cartoonishly evil game, you could say that demons are primordial forces of chaos. Like Werewolf: the Apocalypse, they may be inhuman but ultimately the serve as a counterbalance to the destructiveness of mankind's civilization.

I've been toying with the idea that schizophrenics can sense demons/demonic shenanigans. And I've been pondering the concepts of ritual impurity and ritual purification, even outside the context of any violations of morality.

Which Revenant family has the best waifus? :3

>>97980539
Ducheski

>>97975283
>Even after the Chechen Gay Genocide book incident
The what incident?

>>97975356
Brujah.

What VtM vampires would you say are the right balance of powerful/influential and good/reasonable/sane that you could reasonably ask them for help in stopping Gehenna/Apocalypse/Pentex/Nephandi/some other doomsday?

Both the Beast and the nature of vampire society mean that old and powerful vampires tend to also be some of the worst ones out there, but there's got to be at least a few canon ones that are reasonable-ish, right?

>>97980697
Tremere. Just find your friendly neighbourhood Chantry and ask for help.

>>97975356
Canonically, mostly Tremere and renegade Ventrue. The Council of Seven supported the CSA behind closed doors despite the Camarilla's official pro-Union stance, and also Sherman's army tramping through their plantations was the moment that made a number of soon-to-be-antitribu Ventrue elders decide that the whole pretending to care about the rights of kine thing had outlived its usefulness.

>>97980697
Menele's humanity 10 ass is probably a good pick. Even comes with a ready-made antagonist.

>>97980697
Most Ventrue honestly. They're the clan where even the neonates are pretty wealthy and influential and they play to the biggest strengths of vampires (social powers and logistics). More pressingly, they'd want to stop the apocalypse for their own sake if nothing else. Who wants to rule a smoldering crater?

Your biggest hurdle would be convincing one the threat is valid, which would be the hardest to do for their in-splat apocalypse, since the Sabbat have made Gehenna something of a toxic topic. But Gehenna in general is something of a GG for all vampires, since pretty much every scenario is caused by some nth degree plot device power that no vampire has the counter to.

>>97980697
let's first say that vampires are kinda bad at stopping doomsdays because theirs used to be hardcoded into their gameline as something that has to happen

that's said a lot of the revised metaplot is Tremere and his cronies trying to stop the coming of gehenna because they don't want the consequences of their actions to catch up on them.. they are just really out of their depth when it comes to it which is also why during gehenna all of tremere's plans explode in his face which to be fair happens to everyone during gehenna including several actual antediluvians

another option is Jan Pieterzoon who is also trying to stop gehenna cults because he considers them self-destructive and during one gehenna scenario ends his character arc by finally cutting ties with his sire and create a new sect to manage the end of the masquarade, sponsor the player characters and try to find a way to save both vampire and humankind

and a potentially interesting but really out there pic would be the 4th gen gangrel Odin high priest guy who would have to build up a nextwork as he been in topor for a while but the mythology of his group is that they became vampires to stop ragnarök from happening and ragnarök is what the get of fenrir also call the apocalypse and the norse nephanti are also very ragnarök coded

>>97980654
TL:DR, in traditional White Wolf fashion, one of the V5 books used the Chechnya putting their gays in camps sometime during the 2010s as a set-piece and stated that it was all one big smokescreen to cover Kindred feeding. This pissed off both fags online and the Chechen government itself in an actual international incident. Paradox gutted White Wolf as a result, making it a skeleton publishing crew while doing all its books since then in-house at Paradox Interactive (but recently created another company bearing White Wolf's name after Bloodlines 2 flopped).

>>97979695
The best part of the Book of Hungry Names is that it did it's utter best to work around W5 stupidity and try to write as closely to oWoD as it could get away with. The writer even snuck in kin-folk and prolonged umbral adventures and got away with it.

>>97980820
>Book of Hungry Names
Fuck, I actually liked the way it dealt with spirits. Good little game.

>>97980539
Grimaldi. Their only real downside is being tied to a sabbat bishop.

>>97980539
hear me out: Rossellini
goth girls who don't judge your looks because of their whole deathsight thing

>>97980904
>the whole world is samedi now

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How would you use Greek or Norse gods? Would you make them changelings, mages, or maybe demons?

>>97980820
>W5 book directly says you can't into the Umbra anymore
>first 5 mins has you going into the umbra a little bit
It's nice. It's good in spite of being W5, definitely tries to do what it can despite the author's clear leftist leanings. The Cult is pretty racist for instance but they're portrayed to be roughly honorable enough to respect the litany. Author is a big magefag though, Giselle basically got away scot free.
>>97980835
My favorite part might have been the Lasombra vamp, despite being clearly a result of Obtenebration being combined with Necromancy it incorporated Umbra shenanigans and the whole man out of time thing very well when he just straight up complains about retards to you very blatantly. Also, good incorporation of all the crazy shit and legwork you need to be pulling to track down kindred individually, as well as kinfolk-turned-kindred. Disappointing ending though, the DLC. Not the game though, honestly a very cool set piece and MUCH better than Night Road's ending.

>>97981007
>norse
They're actually just vampires that the Get have been beefing with for millennia
>greek
All of the above I assume? Charon was literally some guy who got turned into a super Wraith or something, Persephone was real (and the first risen), all the big gods have their own afterlife with spiritual entities like Anubis and Zeus

>>97981007
norse gods do show up in dead magic and are spirits

greek gods as far as i know however are mostly something satyr made up

>>97981027
I want you to know that Giselle is the best depiction of a mage we are going to get from WoD5. She was a very fun and interesting part of tBoHN. Be glad it was written before M5, they would never allow Giselle's insane Christ rape fanfic to be a paradigm.

>>97981063
Man, what a problematic bitch in the best way possible
>Quotes uncle Ted
>talks about neopaganism
>Smokes and drinks all day
>basically calls your friends gay and jewish (derogatory)
>moderately hot
>ryona
>backstabs you at every opportunity
>tells you to your face she's using you and that you should be thankful
>her teacher friend implied to be a washed up mage calls her a lazy cunt for slacking off with dogs instead of trying to finish the great work

It's honestly such a good depiction of how another splat would interact with a Mage, she basically begs you for help and STILL backstabs you. I know outside of maybe the author working on one himself we'll probably never get something like that. Hell, I'm happy a Mage got depicted in a videogame at all

>>97981097
don't forget she also somehow got ghouled by a 10th gen tremere and only lost to the vampire pc because she tried to summon animals out of nowhere in a lab in front of a mortal

>>97981150
11th gen I believe, your character is up a gen because of the diablerie he committed. Either way, kind of funny that Giselle gets herself into all of these situations because she doesn't think things through

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M5's going to be awersome.

>>97981171
Hubris is a coward's word, contingency planning is no better.

>>97981150
I might have missed something but I struggled to work out what her actual plans were. Other than get access to dangerous spirit and or node. I'm not even sure she understood what she was trying to do herself with her backstabbing every single thing she came in contact with. She really did try to bite off more than she could chew at the end. Hope she pops up again in some future work of the author if he continues writing WoD text adventures.

>>97980804
Reminder that actual White Wolf is Onyx Path now. They gained independence from CCP a couple years before Paradox bought the IP package.

>>97981208
I won't forget Paradox from killing both CofD and WoD20 to prevent competition, fucking it all up and then donning the old White Wolf name like a skinsuit to try to regain legitimacy.

>>97981184
she wanted to take over a wyrmish umbra realm and bind a spirit but also recruit the neo albion cult into her militant neo pagan but also somehow christian neo nazi doomsday cult (which so far has a single member, herself)

personally i assume she has mental damage from her time as a ghoul, people often forget that she is half dead from mind manipulation, vitae addiction and overwork when we first meet her

>>97981184
>Night Road
She wanted to fuck up the Tremmy because she thought she was a Stacey and it would have been for the good of humanity
>Hungry Names
She was afraid of getting ghouled again so she hoped to enslave a SUPERBANE fun fact, the tiger is a bane from a nuclear factory operating on a conceptual level beyond that of normal spirits, it's nearly an avatar of the wyrm at that point considering it can actually shift reality in an umbral soul labyrinth made by mages in the area before her so that she can use it as collateral for greater deals in her quest to purify Wiccan culture (fucking Verbena am I right) and also because she's hoping that enslaving a spirit will help her avoid vampires without having to shack up with mangy mutts.

Honestly, putting it into context really sounds like she's impulsive and flying by the seat of her pants

>>97981220
Did her rant really have her be both a Christian Neo-Nazi and a Neo-Pagan Wiccan? I thought she was just using everyone?

>>97981223
she claims to be both at seperate points and given that she is a mage and uses nature magic i am not sure if she can be dishonest about it

>>97981220
>>97981221
God I love Giselle she was fucking nuts.

>>97981223
Yes to both.

>>97981225
>>97981226
What a funny nutjob lmfao, I hope the author works on more Mage shenanigans in the future

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>>97975870
>You hear that magefags and fairyfags? W5 was so shit and sold so poorly that it saved you from the hands of the Vampire larpers. You're welcome.
so you're saying...
paradox "killed" mage?

>>97981027
>first 5 mins has you going into the umbra a little bit
The Umbra is accessible to werewolves in W5, but it requires a ritual as stepping sideways no longer exists. Also, every scene spent in the Umbra requires a Willpower point to be spent, otherwise aggravated damage is received. Considering that almost everything a werewolf does requires Willpower due to that game getting rid of Gnosis, and that regenerating an Aggravated health level requires two Rage checks, and running out of rage and losing the wolf would leave them unable to perform the ritual to go home, and considering that almost all spirits are innately hostile to werewolves ever since the Howl of Gaia started, W5 characters are encouraged to spend as little time in the Umbra as possible. After all, the more time that you spend fucking about innawoods or in the Umbra, the less time that you spend doing the anthropocentric street level shenanigans that the game wants you to focus on.

>>97981310
My final whine about W5 today. Losing the wolf is a completely retarded mechanic, holy shit. Who possibly thought that it was a good idea? Being high rage requires you to engage in silly gamey scenes to get rage and also limits your ability to do anything but be a fuck up. Having low rage means that at any point you could just lose your ability to be a werewolf, on things that should not even require a roll, and be effectively useless for however many sessions it takes the story to the next day. Narratively it means that any Garou could just stop being a werewolf pretty much whenever they want and return to a normal life effectively indefinitely. It's so fucking stupid I can't believe none of the play testers or writers pushed back.

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Is there any faction in WoD that were bigger writers' pets than the Tremere?

>>97981343
>Narratively it means that any Garou could just stop being a werewolf pretty much whenever they want and return to a normal life effectively indefinitely.
That's why Harano exists as a mechanic, as a method of punishing werewolves who are too soft and give up on the fight for Gaia. But with Hauglosk also existing as a mechanic, werewolves can't be too rough and fight too hard for Gaia either. They need to find the perfect enlightened centrism approach of fighting for Gaia if they want to stay playable.

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>>97981348
Yes, consider pic

>>97981348
Tremere were really only Achilli's pets in Revised. I think hate for them is really overblown.

>>97981370
isn't exarch from awakening, after oracle it would be ascension aka escaping the chart altogether

>>97981377
the pic in general mixes cofd and wod and is like complete nonsense in several places

like angels don't belong near that high in either cofd or wod

>>97981363
It might make sense in the gamest PC centric point of view but for people suddenly having the life ruined and thrust into a war they can't possibly win which will certainly and inevitably cost them everything, most of them should just bail. It's the sensible choice. Even if seeing the truth and turning their back makes them too depressed to have an impact on a doomed world. And that is never recognised or approached in W5.

Having the lore allow and encourage the monster to just stop being a monster is silly. Imagine if vampires could just go cold turkey on blood and return to being human in VtM. With the game never examining the huge impact or implications that would have. That's what it feels like.

>>97981376
>I think hate for them is really overblown.
It's limited to one or two discussions a month about how they went from being a bunch of high-gen caitiffs struggling to adjust to no longer having magic with no familiarity with their new condition, to being the kingmaker clan that has won every fight they've ever gotten involved in. Tremiggers deserve the hate.

>>97979454
I'd say Prime, Life, Time, Entropy, and Mind or Spirit. Prime, Life and Mind/Spirit (DS for technos) is just to get the dog project started. You want Time and Entropy to expand things and then constrain that expansion.
Without Time, you're basically having to judge in the moment which basically means either too many positives or not enough. Without Entropy, you're having the dog look over too many potential futures regardless of how likely any actual future is in the long run. But even like that, the breed is going to be going after kids that could have been your own faction, so expect to eat a lot of flack or worse for this.

>>97981431
Would Prime really be necessary, if you're breeding the dog rather than making it out of nothing? At high dots, Spirit is the sphere that governs Avatars, while Prime is mostly limited to Quintessence.

>>97981438
It's basically wanting to breed in a very unusal supernatural sense with little if any resemblance to a physical sense. Prime sounds right for that because while there's a history of stories about dogs that can sense the supernatural in the moment, there's not really a similar body to go with for dogs that sense far future supernatural stuff.

>>97981421
I still think the Giovanni are far more egregious, but never get any flak because people typically forget they even exist. Most Independent clans are like that. The Assamites are explicit vampire teamkillers and Antediluvian worshippers that are actually secretly three clans in an overcoat, who haven't been wiped out. Instead, they got everyone else going along with their little assassination rigmarole. Most egregiously, they're actually three clans in an overcoat, basically a mini-sect, and their existence actively makes the middle east boring, since writers are content to write as if the Assamites are the only middle eastern vampires that matter.

Many vampire factions have bouts of stupid plot armor, I really don't see the Tremere as that bad when you stack them up against the indies. I think Tremere hate is 90% the result of a bad experience with a minmaxxer doing bullshit with Thaumaturgy in a game with a pushover ST. Also, come up with an original insult for them, surely you can do better than just unwieldily mimicking Tzigger.

>>97981376
Tremere before V5 had basically no weakness and the most versatile and arguably the strongest discipline of Camarilla clans
There's definitely a bias towards them in VtM, just like there's one toward Mage in general in WoD

>>97980697
No, anon, become a Lilim and join Lilith's garden instead.

>>97981456
Clan Tremerde.

>>97981456
yeah the independents like the giovanni and especially the setites have way more plot armor than the tremere but they have heavy downsides in gameplay while the tremere are also seen as possibly the single best clan rules wise and it's seen as way more acceptable to not feature independent clans or bloodlines than it's to not feature one of the camarilla 7

>>97981456
None of the indies had the same rags-to-riches arc as the Tremere, which became a clan during a period when Europe was bursting at the seams with vampires who had effectively dominated the entire continent. The idea that they were allowed to establish themselves and become one of the most prominent clans in the world in the hyper-competitive vampire world is far more of a stretch than the European clans deciding not to go on a crusade against the diablerist clan that has existed and accumulated power for just as long as them and is found in another continent. Tremere also created a bloodline in the form of Gargoyles, which can be considered a sub-faction of their clan, and they don't even have the excuse of being an independent clan urgently need of diversity. Indies have to be broader and contain multiple archetypes, as they have to stand alone and try to be as interesting as the big sects on their own. To make matters worse, Gargoyles were made out of stitched-together vampires from three other clans which were more established than the Tremere at the time, which never successfully made the Tremere suffer for that transgression. And no, Tremigger rolls off the tongue a lot better than Tzigger, sorry.

>>97981506
Better, might set the performative francophobes off though.

>>97981511
I agree, hence why I say Tremere hate is overblown, rather than invalid. I get why people hate them, I just really don't see them as being a cut above the other bullshit. Familiarity certainly can breed contempt, though. I basically reduce the 4 indies to glorified bloodlines at my table.

>>97981516
>Indies have to be broader and contain multiple archetypes

I have a hard time taking you seriously if you believe that.

>>97981456
The Tremere fuck over and rob the research of everybody that shakes their hand, including each other, and they're this close to stealing the Camarilla from under the Ventrue's feet.
Nobody in the setting likes either clan but no one forces you to act as if you like the Giovanni. For all their faults the Giovanni are a family, they give you what you pay them for, and they're not exactly everywhere you go.

>>97981534
But do Gios wear the slut glasses?

>>97981541
Their mamma dresses them.

>>97981533
Independents have to stand alone and be interesting on their own, and that's harder if they're just a single archetype. All of the clans of the Camarilla are able to bounce off of each other and the Sabbat has the Lasombra, Tzimisce and Antitribu. An independent clan just has itself, so it's more challenging to work with.
Oh, I also forgot to mention that on top of Gargoyles, Tremere also have several different houses that specialise in different forms of magic, not just Thaumaturgy. I thought you disliked it when clans have subgroups?

>>97981534
>and they're this close to stealing the Camarilla from under the Ventrue's feet.

To be fair this plotline comes and goes depending on how the writer is feeling at the time. Nobody really likes them in the Camarilla enough for them to pull it off, sometimes they're written as ambivalent towards political power and use the Camarilla for protection and resources to put energy towards hair-brained magical scheme #1001.

>>97981549
>Independents have to stand alone and be interesting on their own
Repeating a statement doesn't make it true. The independents aren't interesting, and if they were a part of a sect this wouldn't magically fix how one-note they are. I also don't think you're arguing in good faith if you're seriously conflating castes with a clan having factions within it. Every clan has factions, like the Toreador Poseur/Artiste distinction, or the MANY Lasombra subfactions. Castes are just multiple narrow concepts given mechanical distinction and it's not just an Assamite problem, they did it with Salubri too.

>>97981541
no the only two characters we seen in vtm with slut glasses are strauss and a unnamed setite

and i am just going to decide that this is the sole reason why the card game decides that these two clans should have a alliance plotline

>>97981569
>tremere
>allying with setites
and you fags say the writers refused to give them a canon loss.

>>97981565
And I struggle to think you're arguing in good faith if you refuse to acknowledge that the Tremere don't just have a binary distinction, but over a dozen societies and houses with Thaumaturgy paths to make them mechanically distinct from each other. That's perfectly acceptable, but three mechanically distinct castes are not? Curious.

It turns out that the only thing with a thinner skin with a werewolf fan is a Tremere fan.

>>97981581
The mechanical distinction is just the result of how thaumaturgy works. It's the only discipline that works like that. Obviously, if you had a bunch of vampire wizards, they'd start specializing in different things. The only reason this is abnormal is that blood magic is very rare. They're still the same Tremere. Whereas the Assamite/Salubri castes have different weaknesses, discipline spreads, and even different variants of their unique discipline. They're not even remotely comparable.

Hence my earlier statement, most Tremere hate is downwind from Thaumaturgy and the general mismanagement of blood magic by the writers. I'm not some Tremere shill, as I said earlier, Tremere hate is overblown. Not invalid, overblown.

>>97981580
the alliance even lost
the card was printed because a setite/tremere deck came second place in a tournament while a baali deck came first

and because the storyline of the tournament was about the baali (i think even nergal but don't quote me on that) they decided to make that canon to the card game

the card was total shit by the way and just made it so that thaum and serpentis could be used as each other but the entire reason why people ran tremere/setite decks was because there was only 1 blood sorcery discipline in the card game so setite sorcerer and tremere could be used interchangeably and non of these decks used serpentis

>>97981611
Neat. I find it fascinating that the card game sometimes has its own entirely separate canon from the RPG.

>>97981600
>Exclusively because the Tremere wizards, they should have access to almost exclusive access to Thaumaturgy, which is the equivalent of forty-one Disciplines that a Tremere character can pick and choose from, which is a number higher than the actual number of Disciplines. But the Assamites having three separate archetypes with access to different Disciplines is a step too far.
Wait, is that why you hate the Assamites so much? Because their sorcerer caste dares to cut a slice out of the Tremere's Thaumaturgy pie?

>>97981629
Now you're just getting mad at stuff you imagined I said. I called the way white wolf handled blood magic a mishandling. This is the last (you) you're getting from me.

>>97981611
>followers of set and tremere vs Baali
>the biggest vampire assholes of today vs the biggest vampire asshole in history

>>97981654
You're the guy getting mad about Tremere hate being overblown, when someone posts a single negative comment about the Tremere for the first time in over a week, on 4chan of all places.

You don't need to respond, that's evidence enough that you're an over-sensitive fanboy butt-hurt about someone saying something negative about your favourite clan.

>>97981611
I have no idea what the card game canon is but it is probably better than V5.

Any tldr about it?

I don't care if you're "male." You wear the Tremere slut glasses, you're getting fucked by me. Simple as.

>>97981668
toj never happened similairly to v20 (but unlike in v20 the imbued are around) and some tournaments have mini story lines about methuselah or signature characters doing stuff like Helena falling to infernalism and selling her soul to get rid of Menele only for the two of them to finally get that they actually want to fuck but oh no the demon does not want to call off the hit! or give back the soul

A third sabbat offense in both american and north and west europa

beside that several characters have different titles and ranks than in canon, new justicars get voted every 13 years

>https://vtesone.wordpress.com/category/storyline/
here are parts of it but even that is a decade old recounting of a at the time decade old collection of tournament storylines which are missing some parts and also missing the lore implied by some of the cards

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>>97981370
Come on, everyone knows THIS is the real pic

>>97979572
>>97981431
Thanks, I'll keep this in mind if I ever get the chance to turn my shitpost into a very real and scary threat to some kids.

>>97981663
He must be a Werewolf fan on the side. Thinskins, I swear.

>>97981363
It really shows off the divide between old woke and nuwoke. There was an anti-violence message in WtA by having the terrorism the Garou engage in be largely ineffective in the grand scheme of things, and their refusal to organize into something greater is what's losing the war against the Wyrm. Meanwhile W5 beats you over the head with a message of GIVE UP AND GO HOME, politely protest in a way that doesn't upset or challenge corporations such as me, Paradox Interactive.

>>97981395
That's the thing, Anon, they're suffering from terminal case of solipsistic thinking. No one can think about things they haven't, it's simply not possible!

>>97981395
W5 can be summed up like that. Every change they make, they make without thinking through.

Like, before W5 it was a really bad idea to leave the Garou Nation and become a Ronin. You would have a hostile Garou Nation, no access to higher Ranks or Gifts because no one cares about you enough to get Renown or Honor or Wisdom for you to Rank up (and yes, Ranks are a spiritual and physical changes to a Garou), plus most Spirits would hate you. Lastly, Pentex was way more...overt and insistent, to the point of killing of second cousins of garou through Facebook links if they could find you.

Now there is barely any Garou organization to talk about, let alone Garou Nation. Spirits are already hostile to you and Umbra is pain in the ass. Pentex isn't like in the previous editions.

So why not just bail on whole being a Garou thing?

(It is not just these of course. Lack of Kinfolk and lack of a Metis curse, random spawning of Garou etc. Like, why is War of Rage important when people consider a decade before ancient history and no Shapeshifter is ever in danger of dying out?)

>>97981695
...
I can't believe I am saying this but I prefer a card games story to V5. Why don't we have these?

>>97982081
Probably for the same reason that you like it better than V5. It was only partially planned, and so a lot had to be worked around or put where it could be.

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>>97981670

>>97981670
>>97982237
See >>97974833

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>>97981007
>>97981042
Kithbook Satyr claims the greek gods were Sidhe who got banished from Arcadia

>>97981177
I look forward to it doing horrible things to the powerlevel arguments crowd and the Technocracy fans.

>>97982304
I would be mad had it not been for all previous games lowering my expectations to bellow rock bottom. That and we've already seen the pussyfication of the union.

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>>97982285
To be fair, Changelings claim lots of things that are not true.

>>97981670
Trying to figure out if a lower clan member, degenerate Hunter, or God forbid, a Hermetic

>>97982329
i remember we had a convo on here how funny a wod crosssplat game would be to run with the assumption that changelings are right about everything

but i can't find it right now

>Be me, Tremere
>have Tzimisce fetish

My dumb ass is just begging for Final Death ain’t I?

>>97982010
Pretty much yeah, big difference between the themes
>Sure your violence will make a difference, but you'll die on a mountain of corpses and never see what that difference will be if you keep it up
Vs
>There is no hope, no future, your violence is pointless. Go back to your forest chud

>>97982564
You're going to get out into a Torment Nexus because your grandsire the Tzimisce's grandsire's friend into a Gargoyle 400 years ago, but at least you'll probably like being a weird flesh cube. At least you'll be fed, so maybe you can just pretend you're a Gangrel per instead

>>97982329
To be fair, that's not outlandish or overtly incorrect.

>>97981453
Honestly, all you need to do is give the dog the ability to perceive the future and to detect the future aura of someone it meets and condition them to attack children who will have mage auras in the future on sight. Detecting auras falls under Mind 1, Spirit 1, or Life 1 / Prime 1, so that's not the expensive part of the spell. In order to make the most effective future-mage-child-killer dog, I'd say that you need:
>Life 5
Making permanent alterations to a complex lifeform and permanently increasing its Perception.
>Mind 5
Permanently psychologically altering a lifeform in order to instil it with specific behaviour and permanently giving it dots in Awareness and the ability to perceive auras.
>Time 3
Granting another creature the ability to foresee the future, with Life 5 / Mind 5 making it permanent.
>Entropy 3
Making that creature's aforementioned foresight as accurate as possible, with Life 5 / Mind 5 making it permanent.

You could argue that Time 5 and Entropy 5 are required in order to make the effects associated with those Spheres permanent, but I don't think Spirit and Prime necessary at all.

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>>97982607
I am struggling to find where it is actually correct. Only that shapeshifter have multiple forms I guess?

I like Changeling viewpoints though. It is fun seeing how they rationalize stuff. My favorite are Mummies.

>>97982777
Maybe correct in the way that you squint your eyes and imagine the umbra is also the dreaming and the dreaming is the umbra? Probably in a similar way for Greek gods, if you squint and think real hard it's an interpretation that makes sense to them. Does it make more sense than Werewolf/Vampires pretending to be gods or spirits walking on earth? Depends, it's fun to experiment and I think giving contradictory information during a chronicle can be kino

>>97982777
What about mages?

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Does the Old World of Darkness tend to appeal to comic book geeks? Just like comics, the World of Darkness has rule-of-cool fragmented storytelling, cross-overs, reboots, inconsistent worldbuilding, and the quality of the art and writing varies wildly over time.

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>>97982777
I really like their perspective on Demons, myself.

>>97982808
I don't think comic geeks are after deep lore and conspiracy kino per se, but the rule of cool stuff probably would appeal to them

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>>97982010
>woke and nuwoke
"Stay woke" used to be a way to remind people to distrust Yakubian tricknology, but it got co-opted by the Illuminazis.

>>97982777
I am unsure how Changeling typifies the Tuatha de Danaan, but given historic context you could compare them to archmages in how they carried themselves. So, in defiance of the decree (consensus), shapeshifters broke away for the sake of their battle against triatic madness.

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>>97979486
>>97974494
> ethical tzimisce surgeon
I bet you fucks want a pretty Nosferatu or a kind Lasombra too

>>97982916
being fair there's nosferatu merits that let them pass as people (if severely mangled or maimed)

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>>97982916
>a kind Lasombra too
I must spread the name of our lord and savior Vincente de las Navas de Tolosa!
(And other Faithful Lasombra)