I refuse to accept that Bretonnia and the Empire inhabit the same setting simultaneouslyHaving Arthurian knights fight battles against volley guns and literal tanks is retarded and not cool. Bretonnia should be completely axed or given a subsetting that precedes the Empire. Bretonnia has great potential as a core faction for the setting, and I think theyre arguably a more interesting candidate as "The Human Faction" for a setting since theres a ton of customization for chivalric orders, or noble houses. This could all fit into a more OSR/Retro-fantasy feeling, but instead Bretonnia sits has the autistic red-haired stepchild of the setting which is outclassed on every level including actual gameplay as well as the depth of their lore.Bretonnia is one of the biggest missed opportunities for the old world and warhammer as a whole.
Bretonia should have just been a subfaction of the empire or whatever. Anyways stick to your containment thread.
>Poland: hold my tatra
>>97976002Doesnt address the core issue I haveThis whole board is for my containment!
>>97976010That shit DID NOT happen, and also proves my point completely
>>97975988Bretts actually used to very early on, be based more on a corrupt French pre-revolutionary aristocracy; they were always somewhat lagging behind The Empire technologically.However, somebody in marketing probably figured that they were too similar to The Empire, being two non-Chaotic human factions, and sharing a land border.So, they decided to insert more of the Chivalric high medieval theme, probably because Knights and the high middle ages, were are , and probably will remain a popular subject for miniatures.Back in the day, they were probably still half considering their models as a "Complete range" despite the branding and fluff; Bretts are functionally the "High middle ages" part of their catalog, whereas the Empire is late medieval to renneisance.
>>97975988Post models
>>97976024Probably not exactly like in the painting.My understanding is that the Poles actually used their horses to flank the tanks and cripple them with bombs; and the lances tended to be used against infantry and baggage trains caught in open ground by cover they could emerge from.The purpose of the horsemen in the Polish army was to get behind enemy lines and sow chaos, rather than to frontally charge machinegun nests and armored cars.On the Eastern front of World War Two, cavalry continued to be used.Horses can go places and do things without a supply train.That will never not be useful.Hell, the Americans used horses in Afghanistan, which were supplied by local tribes to provide access to mountainous areas where geeps couldn't go.
>>97976024That event technically did happen but nowhere near in the way described or shown in that picture. Cavalry had AT rifles and performed hit and run attacks on the tanks, dismounting to ambush then retreating once the tanks figured out where they were.
>>97976066Aye, I forgot about the Polish use of AT rifles.Good catch.
>>97976037I remember being a kid at a GW store looking at the fantasy minis. I was really obsessed with knights as a kid and so seeing badass chivalric knights was really cool, but even when I was in first grade I saw the empire's minis that were packing line infantry and was like "So what's the point of the knights?" and I dont think bretonnia had heavy infantry back then either, so even as a wide-eyed kid, the whole premise of Bretonnia was stupid.I can respect the distinction from a marketing perspective, but now the Horus Heresy has its own section on the GW store because the "bygone era" is a cool way to explore the aesthetic and lore rather than the AoS "World ended so none of that old shit mattered and there's space marines" method. The space marines were already there! They had the blessed and dutiful supersoldier knights already in the fantasy setting but just ignored them and tanked the whole setting.
>>97976066Of course cavalry was used on the same battlefield as tanks, but they didn't charge the tanks with lances. But maybe that painting is of something else entirely and I'm just assuming shitanyway, here's that painting in warhammer fantasy
Wait this one's better
>>lore lore setting lore setting lore
>>97976449Yes, and?
>>97975988But none of the evil guy factions use gunpowder or tanks either? Except Chaos Dwarfs I guess if we are counting them. Elves are still relying on bows and crossbows too, so I don't see how "human faction that relies on knights" is out of place, especially when some of those knights have supernatural powers. Knights existed side-by-side with firearms for several centuries, the thing out of place is Empire's gatling guns and tanks. Those things should theoretically completely dominate the setting.
>>97975988Imagine coming on to a public forum and announcing, even anonymously, that you're a retard with zero imagination. Does op have a humiliation kink?
>>97976544I think they should push the "graal knights are superhuman" more, both in fluff and crunch. Yes their stats are nice, but they are a unit of knights in an army of knights, they don't really stand out, especially when you have several other strong cavalry units in other factions.Another thing that is often forgotten is the lady's protection from firearms, that would be the basic levelling agent.
>>97976180Slopkino
>>97975988>Bretonnia should be completely axedHave I got good news for you
>>97975988Yeah I dunno. I think it's cool. I guess I can just ignore your opinion and my life doesn't change and I'm still happy.
>>97976544The old world model range is totally gutted but Skaven and Vampire counts have access to guns in the lore.Chaos warriors have a cannon and daemons also have a cannon.>knights existed side by side with gunsyea, but the bretonnians dont use them. And guns clash with their whole aesthetic
>>97976754FAIR ENOUGHI want them to be even more gone then
>>97976797>Chaos warriors have a cannonIt's a rental from Chaos Dwarfs. Also pretty sure it fires using Daemonic energy and not gunpowder, and that goes double for the Daemon one.>Skaven and Vampire counts have access to guns in the lore.Skaven have guns sure, but they don't really use gunpowder as best as I can remember. It's mostly warpstone-powered, isn't it? As for Vampire Counts, that's where the line between tabletop rules and what's actually happening in the world sort of blur. Yeah, there are living people using gunpowder fighting along certain Vampire Count armies, but the undead don't use gunpowder themselves. No reason has ever been given for this, and we know it's possible because of the Vampire Coast, so I guess the Counts just couldn't be bothered with trying to supply their troops with ammunition and figured swords and spears were easier.>yea, but the bretonnians dont use them. And guns clash with their whole aestheticThe point was that knights existed alongside guns for several hundred years, early blackpowder didn't instantly invalidate them, so I don't see why it should invalidate them in a fantasy world either. It's only the more advanced guns that made the knight obsolete in the battlefield, which is why I specified it's the super-advanced Empire-specific tech that's the real outlier that doesn't fit into the setting.
Bretonnian Knights are protected by their sacred vows
>>97976989I don't want to get into an argument that switches between in-world technical pedantry and conceptual arguments about the underlying nature/purpose of the fiction, so I'll try and be direct.In warhammer, factions need to be distinct and attractive for people to play them. The model way back then was to draw inspiration from popular established fantasy (LOTR, heavy metal album covers) and historical martial aesthetics to make people want to buy and play a tabletop wargame. The Empire was able to take on their own identity with ridiculous and fun stuff like the steam tank, along with strong artillery and the more expected knights and soldier units. This meant they had a well-rounded and versatile roster. Meanwhile Bretonnia's identity being based on this "cultural rejection of guns" is retarded because the whole thing about the warhammer universe is that there are countless evil forces beating down the gates of every faction trying to destroy them, so the whole premise of a faction that's choosing to kneecap themselves by "honorably rejecting the use of cannons and volleyguns" is already weird and unbelievable from a lore perspective, then you add onto the fact that their low tech idea basically pigeonholes everyone who wants to play that faction into a playstyle where they have garbage infantry, subpar artillery, no monsters, and all you do is charge the enemy with your knights. Its a total failure of fiction and a gimmicky aesthetic that doesnt even make sense in its own setting
I think knights and cavalry charges are based.
>>97977295and IM MAD because I think it COULD be cool, and even cooler than the old world ever was, if it was given the proper space to breath. We could have had something like 40k, with something akin to space marines but knights with one side being chivalric and the other being chaotic, one side with peasants, the other with cultists. I think thats actually a more compelling dichotomy than Empire vs Chaos Warriors but they blew it. They decided to do AoS which felt DOA to me, but its been a LONG time since I played.
>>97977364>because I think it COULD be coolIt couldn’t. Honestly this whole thread really reminds me how dogshit Bret’s are. You especially, wanting it to be like 40k for some reason. It’s sickening how fucking devoid the skull of people who like the idea of Bret’s are.
>>97977709>HOW DARE YOU suggest merging a proven concept with a classic formatNigga fuck u. at least im having fun hating
Genuine question, why are threads about warhammer fantasy somehow always about 50 IQ points below /wfg/ itself? And /wfg/ isn't some sort of bastion of intellectual discussion to begin with. Half of the posts here seem to have been written by people who are functionally illiterate and/or suffering from a brain hemorrhage.
>>97975988you know there was a massive overlap period where bullet proof heavily armoured cavalry went up against guns. Like the 1600s and earlierIt's completely historically accurate.
>>97976024what did happen is winged Hussar charged into gunlines in the 1600sAnd 1600s is about the tech level of the Empire.
>>97977348the greatest last cavalry charge in history was done by ANGLOS.They took Beersheba and Jerusalem in under 1 hr.Unarmoured.With bayonetsCharging into machine gun firehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsWQRI6VuzQ
>>97976037Don’t forget as editions dragged on they decided that 90% of Bretonnia was peasants who lived in increasingly cartoonish and horrid squaller that got worse with every codex.Would you want to give any of those peasants access to firearms if you were a Bretonnian lord?
>>97976086imagine being a stupid ignorant kid then growing up and still being stupid and ignorant. lmao.assuming you are actually an adult and not a teen still. People like you never grow and learn as human beings, sad!
>>97979969Tbqh empire was often also 90% peasants living in mud and squalor from the very beginning, depending who was writing.
>>97979969>>97980013maybe its my headcanon but i always like the idea Bretonnia was an ideal fantasy kingdom sitting in the middle of the grim derp mudcore old world, juxatposed with the Empire being madness and suffering. Because its funny.
>>97976037I came here to mention the early editions thing too, nice. Back in the day, Bretonnia was the slimiest, most British depiction of Sun King France you could depict. Snooty accents, honhonhon, powdered wigs and pompous titles. It was a whole thing.Honestly? I miss it. I thought it was more compelling.
>>97975988>he's just finding out that Warhammer has always been retarded and operates on rule of cool, and has never been the epic Tolkien-tier pseudohistorical setting some newfriends make it out to belol
>>97980044so it was completely accurate France>>97980063please dont be a low effort retard on here just because you can post.
>people think Bretonnia is Frenchits a pastiche of Arthurian, Britain and France
>>979760024chan is not a website for generals, zoomer faggot.
>>97979718There was a British cavalry charge in Irak, 1942 as well, not to mention the Italians on the Eastern Front
>>97979718more epic with two steps from Hellhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_udGcKMhbtc
>>97975988>I refuse to accept that Russia and the Ukraine inhabit the same setting simultaneously
>>97975988during the 1600s Europe was divided in half by warfare, technologically.The West used pike and shot. The east still had god damn cataphracts and armoured heavy cavalry
>>97978969Jesus christ, fuckin sue me for making a thread about shit that doesnt matter. Is it not up to your incredibly high standards of /tg/ posts?>>97979655I know there's overlap but the developed metallurgy required for firearms and the more Gothic knights is leagues ahead of the arthurian era. The only time these were against eachother was a very brief period of transition as one was clearly being phased out.>>97981114This is the best point against me so far
>>97981725there werent even knights in the arthurian time periodThey retroactively gave arthurian "knights" medieval armour
>>97981725oh and if you go back really early to the type of armour Bretonian knights wear. They used guns back then.
>>97981733Youre right. Misuse of the term on my part. Still, there is an obvious anachronistic disparity of over a century between the factions overall, which I understand is the intended appeal of bretonnia. My point is that this is fundamentally stupid and does a disservice to both the faction and the setting.
>>97975988>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_IslandFuck off retard.
>>97981750there isn't. It's a misconception from pop culture like D&D
>>97981766Yes there is. This is intentional and obvious. Bretonnia is high medieval with feudal knights adorned in great Helms without any massed firearm units. The empire is early modern pike and shot, with landsknect and bombards. Real life overlap here is an edge case
>>97981755Ah yes. One of the great human factions of our world. An army to rival the empires of our time
>>97981781But knights and guns and canons existed at the same time
>>97981787Thats not what im arguing. The point is the aesthetic and logical scope of these elements within each factions lore and how this communicates with their tabletop roster/gameplay
>>97979682Do the winged hussars aesthetically fit with the empire or bretonnia?
>>97981803they exist in the same setting in Kislev>>97981797but you have knights with the same armour as Bretonnians. In battles with handgunners and volley guns and stuff like that.It happened. Also a steam tank is another retroactively added thing, they didnt exist.
>>97981811Not the point of my question but actually makes bretonnia look even worse because the other human faction does actually have units that historically match with the empire making bretonnia look even more outdated and anachronistic.I know that these elements existed at the same time. This actually makes the whole premise of no-guns bretonnia even more ridiculous.
>>97976086>The space marines were already there! They had the blessed and dutiful supersoldier knights already in the fantasy setting but just ignored them and tanked the whole setting.Gw didn't create stormcast because they were lacking magical supersoldiers, they created stormcast because they were lacking baby's first miniature easy to paint marine-equivalent. The entire purpose of stormies is to be the starter box faction.
>>97981811Youre not really engaging with the question Im asking. Just asserting the existence of a Technology at a point in time doesnt address the scale of adoption or its contribution to an aesthetic. Like we have fusion reactors right now, and some can even produce power, but we arent in the fusion age yet. It would be weird to portray as much. Also it would be weird to have napoleonic troops up against a ww1 trench. Of course theres a lot of overlap in their tech, and you could even say that napoleonic troops used "air power" with blimps, but they are still very clearly contrasting eras
>>97981845I think youre just being uncreative. I have faith GW could design a knight that could be baby's first mini.I think they went with AoS because Warhammer fantasy wasnt selling and they had written the whole setting into a corner
>>97981784Remind me how the Vietnam War ended for the US?
>>97981858there was entire gunlines and volley gun artillery at the same times as knights and medieval castles.You are just ignorant.>>97981840https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UIHkHllVKA
>>97981908You think we were fighting north Sentinel island?>>97981916I dont think you're really understanding what im saying at all. I think you recently learned that history has much more whacky overlap than people initially think, but I dont think youre able to engage with my criticism. Lets do this tho, lets agree to disagree
>>97981934The Empire doesn't have aircraft carriers either. Also, how Cuba doing? Already under US control?
>>97981934anon, i'll just be frank. You are a fucking retard. You are totally ignorant of history.You are a d&d faggot unaware black powder guns, volley guns, repeating guns, cannons etc existed in warfare at the same time as Bretonnian style knights.
>>97981951Is it because they choose not to use aircraft carriers? Bretonnia doesnt have guns because they choose not to.You are making an insane comparison in a very hostile way.The north Vietnamese forces had a fully diversified order of battle. I assume Cuba is in a similar situation. The only reason that the US possesses weapons that our enemies dont isnt due to cultural reasons but material constraints.
>>97981967Well I was trying to be respectful but you are such a faggot that you couldnt keep it together while talking about literal toys. You've completely ignored anything ive said to reassert a core claim ive addressed from multiple angles but you clearly arent mentally equipped to talk about this topic. I hope you at least kill yourself after you shoot up your high school
>>97981971>Bretonnia doesnt have guns because they choose not to.Yes, because they have an alternative in the form of magic. Also early firearms sucked against heavily armored cavalry, it took almost 5 centuries to develop into a weapon that really dominated the battlefield, before that, firearms were more of a support gimmick than a real force. So shut up and learn history.
>>97981967Behold! A feared weapon of the high medieval battlefield according to the one true history knower in the thread!
>>97981976your entire premise is guns like the Empire has are unrealistic at the same time as Bretonnia. It's not.Also archers and trebuchet existed. The Empire has archers too, why not just guns.Your entire pov is some d&d thing about no guns in fantasy.>>97981971thats was a real thing too in chivalry they thought using ranged weapons was unchivalrous.
>>97981991Do you know what we're even talking about?
knights thought it was impractical for a knight to use a gun, a bit ineffective and it was also dishonourable.Running a peasant down mounted on war horse with full barding was much more honourable (they really thought this)
>>97981996No. You've misunderstood me. You've projected an opinion onto me and argued against that. I am pro guns in fantasy. Im making a critique of their aesthetic and lore relative to the other factions of the setting and how that effects their gameplay on the tabletop. Im not making a "there shouldnt be guns in fantasy argument" and never was
>>97982018I mean they were totally right at the time. Early guns were completely impractical to use on horseback.
>>97982025I think you should argue with this guy >>97981991I think youd enjoy that more
>>97982017Yes, you retard. Bretonnian knights just slaughter musketeers like pigs. As for tanks, first - magic exists in the setting, second - according to lore, tanks are so rare that the Empire only saves them for the most important battles, so no one would send them to conquer bumfuck nowhere without any important resources for the Empire. So it's clear from the thread that you're either a retard with a superficial knowledge of the setting and history or a retarded troll with a superficial knowledge of the setting and history. In any case, we've realized that there's no point in talking to you because you're an idiot.
>>97982025but your argument makes no sense as i said earlier and you ignored Europe at certain tines was divided by military strategy and technology.Like in the 1600s you had very medieval style warfare in the east and the west had pike and shot
>>97982045You are actually the most retarded person ive ever seen on /tg/. How are you this mad? First, calm down, then i want you to read about the Vietnam war. We weren't fighting north Sentinel island. Its important for you know that if youre going to talk to people on the internet about history. Second, history and fiction are different topics. We are talking about fiction here. Bretonnia and the Empire arent real. Thats also really important to know when talking about history with other people. Im sorry you dont see any value in an exchange you initiated with me and now youre so mad you need to leave. I hope you feel better
>>97982047I just learned from this fine historian >>97981991 that guns were a total support gimmick on the battlefield, so take it up with him. Hes my new source for all my history
>>97982076the main issue with guns up until the modern period is they lacked penetrating power.And armour smithing was so advanced they could make bullet proof armour. Thats where the term comes from. They used to shoot armour with a handgun to see if it was bullet proofed.When guns started penetrating armour, armour gradually was phased out completely.
>>97982098Are you stupid? Why are you wasting your time on a troll?
>>97982168yea man, I set up this whole thread and went back and forth with people having a good time for a while all just to fuck with you specifically. Its not that your incapable of having someone disagree with you after you make a ton of obtuse and really hostile arguments for no reason, its that I'm trolling.
>>97982205i don't think you are trolling i just think you are dumb
>>97982216That's fine
>>97980080Bretonnia *used* to be slimy stereotypical honhon France. Bretonnia then became Arthurian England with a Norman flair; the knights are aggressively French, the peasantry is aggressively English.
>>97982269>https://youtu.be/Jl3K63RbygwSo normal England?
>>97982276>So normal England?Yes!
>>97982276off the bat the title of this video marks it as retarded,The English language didnt change because if the Normans. they only changed the court language to French.English stayed Old English for centuries after the last Norman king fucked off.The English language became more frenchy because monks were using french way after the Normans.
>>97975988You sound like a fag.
>>97982289>video literally explained how the Norman nobility changed the English language>rreeeeee, that's not trueAs I say you are either a retard, or a troll, or a mentally ill who contradicts for the sake of contradicting.
>>97982315The norman nobility never changed the language you dumb yank.The video is wrong. You seriously just believe every half assed youtube video like a faggot retard?jfc moron.The Anglo-saxon chronicle the oldest continuous recording of a peoples history in their own language was written in Old English the entire time the Normans were around and after.Please educated yourself you fucking stupid american swine pig
>>97982315That's not me, brother
>>97982315t. retard You can literally look up when middle English comes about and it's after the Normans.This weird REDDIT mick fantasy of how the Anglosaxon were wiped out by Normans is bs.
>>97982359Dont botherThis guy is having a meltdown so he's just attacking everyone in the thread
>>97981750Youre overthinking it. Bretonnia is a matriarchy and chicks dont like guns much. How will ze ladies find out who is the best, most gallant knight if everybody is using firearms. Even archers are barely tolerated.
>>97982388>>97982018knights let peasants use ranged weapons because it was unchivalrous.They then used that to justify running peasants down on giant fully armoured horses, also cutting off their ears and other chivalrous things
>>97982401Thats in our world but in Warhammer Fantasy World things are sometmes different
>>97982377>English is a mix of the Norman nobles language and the Anglo-Saxon peasants languagesNo one ever claimed that Normans completely wiped out Anglo-Saxons, the idea that anyone ever said that is purely your sick imagination, retard.
You know the wild variety of time periods, aesthetics and technology is one of the reasons most of us like the setting right
>>97983353Like?
>>97976063Electronic Warfare Donkey is ready for action, Comrade!
>>97976163>>97976180Fuck off, slopspamming faggot.>>97975988Retard.
>>97983765Suck my dick, faggot>WAAAH DONT USE AIpussy
