>how does something that can not only easily be edited but is encouraged to be edited hold up
Still easily edited, and it is encouraged to edit it.

>>97978274
Can be cool if the group actually commits to it (ir the GM enforces it), but your typical modern DnD party of completely different random ass wacky heroes doesn't really fit the vibe CoS is aiming for at all

>>97978274
Incredibly overrated and fundamentally flawed, like all the "good" d&d campaigns. It's saving grace is that it's a """sandbox""" (not really) so the good stuff in it can be stolen or tweaked.

>>97978274
Ravenloft peaked in 3e

>>97978274
>Shit story
>Shit puzzles
>Shit encounter design
>Shit pacing
>Shit writing
>Shit formatting
I genuinely do not understand how anyone can play all the way through it once, let alone go through it multiple times because of the taroka gimmick of randomizing certain locations.

Still fine, my group had a blast with it

>>97979909
>had a blast
uh oh

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Strahd is pages, pages, and pages of forgettable minutiae arranged in such a fashion as to be maximally hostile to the GM's time. The real vampires all along were the fucking time vampires at wotc who know their book needs to have hundreds of pages in order for people to feel good paying $60 for it

>>97978274
CoS is probably one of the weaker Ravenloft modules.

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>>97980010
I mean, who could ever forget this savory morsel of content:
>A table with four chairs is in one corner of the room, with a lantern hanging directly from a chain above. Two well-made cabinets stand against the east wall.
>The cabinets are packed with worthless items that Hendrik has collected over the years.

It's like a masterwork of bullshit: simultaneously time-wastingly specific, AND uselessly vague. The GM knows exactly how the room is lit and how much seating there is, and yet has not even one example of the things the named NPC finds important enough to collect.

>>97978274
It's a cool campaign but needs a competent DM. The book itself reads like a wikipedia article for each location.

>>97980121
If it needs a competent DM to be enjoyed, then it's not good and not well written. What you have described is a bad campaign book.

>>97980175
The potential is there between all the fluff. I've read much worse campaign books especially from the 2e era. The worst campaign books are a combination of railroading, someone who clearly just wanted to write their own novel, and poor formatting.

CoS has the latter but not the other two.

>>97980240
Being better than trash doesn't mean something is actually good. You can just say it's bad without having to make so many excuses for a weak macguffin hunt adventure.

>>97980175
Explain why you believe this.

>>97980175
>If it needs a competent DM to be enjoyed, then it's not good and not well written
total bullshit. different modules target different GM skill levels. Some celebrated modules are merely borderline-schizophrenic collections of scenes and ideas, because they provide an intense fuel for GMs who know what they're doing.

strahd does suck big ass though lol

>>97980268
>Being better than trash doesn't mean something is actually good
You're misrepresenting what I said. I said it is a decent campaign. However due to the poorly formatted book and bizarre descriptions especially for some rooms in Strahd's Castle it isn't something I'd recommend as baby DM's first adventure. You can run it as written and have a decent campaign but running it well requires someone who knows what they're doing.

Funnily enough a railroad campaign would be significantly easier to run and format. Just a series of dungeons and/or scenes. Presumably where the level 20 wizards crush the PC if they dare interrupt. (I literally saw that scenario in one 2e book)

>>97980272
>>97980274
Because "it's good with a competent DM" is like saying a game is "fun with friends" and other non-praise that admits that the base experience is bad, but if someone else puts in the work, or you have people you enjoy being around suffering with you, that those experiences, not the actual campaign, that is fun.

Saying shit like this
>because they provide an intense fuel for GMs who know what they're doing.
Is cope. Plain and simple. A great GM can usually run a great game, no matter what they are using for inspiration. If a module, adventure, or campaign is not well written enough for even bad GMs to be able to run a passable game with, then it's just fucking bad. Stop giving credit to the potential for a good game and just praise your GM for spinning shit into gold, because the professional writers whom you paid couldn't be bothered to do their job correctly.

>>97980291
>You can run it as written and have a decent campaign but running it well requires someone who knows what they're doing.
This is backhanded praise, at best.

>>97980300
>This is backhanded praise, at best.
It's not a perfect module, but it is among the best I've used. I'm trying to give a balanced view. I can't say the same for you.

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>>97980300
>Saying shit like this
>>because they provide an intense fuel for GMs who know what they're doing.
>Is cope. Plain and simple.
cope for what? Deep Carbon Observatory is one of the highest-rated things on DriveThruRPG and its cover looks like this:

it's a difficult campaign to run, it's a strange campaign to run. But I'm not here to yank my players' leashes through another Paint By Numbers generic orc dungeon, you know? What IS a good module, in your opinion?

>>97980308
>I can't say the same for you.
God forbid someone call a shitty campaign shitty. You complained about the formatting, the writing, and the need for someone to work to make it better than it is. You're not making sense. Like you think one of the campaign's writers is in this thread and you don't want to hurt their feelings.

>>97980334
>its cover looks like this
What does that have to do with anything? We're not discussing cover art.

>>97980356
>What does that have to do with anything? We're not discussing cover art.
it serves as a benchmark for how user-friendly the module isn't.

>What IS a good module, in your opinion?

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>>97980367
>it serves as a benchmark for how user-friendly the module isn't.
Are you illiterate? It's okay if you are, we're all here to support you. But you shouldn't let your condition define your view of things.

>>97980402
oh, you're just here to shitfling. have fun with your hot takes then

>>97980412
I'm just a random asshole who disagrees with your assertions regarding the formatting of Deep Carbon.

>>97980439
you haven't read it. you just looked up a table so you would have something to accompany your quip. DCO has huge swathes which require homework on the part of the GM.

>>97980450
I have read it cover to cover, but not run it. I cannot make a claim as to whether running it would require overly much back and forth flipping because of this. I did not see any passages during reading that tripped me up or had me doing a double take, but my standard for bad formatting is BORK BORK so I may have a somewhat higher personal tolerance for these things than you do.

Also, congratulations and successfully reading at least half of two posts. I'm glad to know your literation process is progressing at a rapid rate.

>>97980468
>but not run it.
I'm not surprised

>>97980490
Have you? Because if not we're on the same footing here when it comes to the legitimacy of complaints or lack thereof.

>>97980356
>God forbid someone call a shitty campaign shitty. You complained about the formatting, the writing, and the need for someone to work to make it better than it is. You're not making sense. Like you think one of the campaign's writers is in this thread and you don't want to hurt their feelings.
Black and white thinking is a sign of autism and mental illness. You can like something and still see it's flaws.

>>97980751
Limp-dicked comebacks are a sign of weak argumentation and cowardly bullshit. You can like something despite its flaws, but the flaws are still there.

>>97981099
I never said they weren’t…

>>97980240
>>97980291

Most of the "good" stuff originated in I6. When you actually go through the two side by side you realize that CoS is a 5e veneer put over I6 with low quality additions made to turn it into a "campaign." Even compared to House of Strahd (2nd Edition expanded version) and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (3.X version) you can get a sense that it is a lesser work done more for nostalgia baiting and nerd credit than actual love of the module.

>>97978312
fpbp

>sandbox but you cant go to certain areas without being instakilled so not really
>players have no reason to care about ireena or not immediately give her up to strahd if he asks nicely
>there is no reason given as to why strahd doesnt straight up kill the whole party whenever he wants beyond some flimsy "ireena would be mad (even though ireena just met the party)"
>everyone is canonically a soulless NPC for some reason
>castle ravenloft is a fucking amusement park haunted house complete with strahd dummy flying at players going bleh bleh bleh
>castle ravenloft is unironically one of the safest places for the players to explore
>random tarot reading can give the players the sunsword right off the bat (which is why most people fudge the reading)
>ireena has to be glued to the party 24/7 or strahd will kidnap her with few safe places to leave her
>strahd controls the land so monsters should know not to attack ireena
>lots of high level NPCs standing around doing nothing like van richten, mordenkainen is retarded for some reason

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I always play CoS as a long one shot where the players are a strike force of high level paladins or martials (I try to not have pure casters) barging in, SWAT style, to arrest/kill Strahd.
Its fun and it allows for a good crash and grab. I have never experienced CoS as anything else but the castle.

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Having run Rise of the Runelords (PF1), Kingmaker part 1 of 6 (PF1), and just now finished CoS (first foray into 5e due to new group full of casuals), I had to do a fuckton of changes to CoS:

> the combat encounters and system are ridiculously braindead, had to invent an environmental effect (building on fire, people trampling, floor breaking apart, etc) every time so that combat would not become "i roll attack and end my turn" for 10 rounds straight.
> the tone is abit too zany (like the Strahd dummy, the stupid Chucky doll, the Blinsky toys), so that shit got cut out.
> made up a friendly blacksmith where the party could dump Ireena safely in Vallaki
> made up a Fabius Bile ripoff that served Strahd and helped the evil elves create the evil walking tree to tie the vampires to it.
> created some vampire court intrigue between the brides just to give them some character
> made Ireena into a DMPC Paladin after Sergei's tomb (because my party was retarded and had no healer)
> set up a twist where she had to die together with Strahd in order to perma-kill him (moral choice for the party and respects traditional vampire literature and provides a more dramatic ending)
> had to revamp multiple dungeons completely, due to 60% of the rooms being empty in the rulebook (fucking Argyntvosthold worst offender, there's nothing there)
> had to buff Strahd's final fight immensely, split it into phase 1 (cast spells while flying) and phase 2 when he lets his inner beast out and starts melee-ing

the group all said they liked it, not sure if that was worth 3 hours prep-time before each session

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Strahd has great bones, but needs a fuckton of work to reach its full potential. The ireena problem is easily solved if you can turn her into a PC. Its a balancing act to not give that PC too much attention but if you can pull it off it helps get the party super invested. You have to treat strahd like he is in groundhog day. Every time Ireena dies she is reborn somewhere else and strahd has been doing this dance for a long time. He knows she will be back if she dies, and although he doesnt want her to perish, hes willing to let her die if it becomes impossible in this lifetime for her to love him. He can always try again, and he believes that if he can convince her to love him that it will break the curse and he will be free with her. The tragedy is that strahd COULD be free of the curse, but he would have to give her up, which he will never do.

>why doesnt strahd just kill the party
Hes bored and likes to play with his food
>why doesnt he just steal ireena and marry her
he has in previous lifetimes and she dies. Strahd is obsessed but not stupid, he knows that he must try out different strategies when previous ones fail
>Castle ravenloft too safe
youre the DM, you can easily change that

Based

>>97978274
Looks like slop.

>>97981280
>there is no reason given as to why strahd doesnt straight up kill the whole party
vampires are divas and are in it for the love of the game

>>97981099
Your responses aren’t strong, they’re pedantic and overeager like you’re manic.

>>97981740
>>97981334

Would you have any tips for how you structured the mcguffin search/exploration or did you just put things on a mostly straightforward pathway? I'm going to be running CoS in this coming campaign and any feedback on what went well/improvements would be useful.

>>97978274
My main problem with CoS is that it's written like a jrpg storyline. Nothing is going on and nothing actually happens until the players show up. There aren't really the kind of overarching big name characters or factions with goals moving around in the background that make a game an actual sandbox. It has interesting component parts, but it's obvious that the only structure the writers really understand is a railroad (or the work was so butchered in editing that it was turned into a railroad.)

Also, the fucking troika deck thing is stupid and pointless. It makes a little bit of sense when it was just a single dungeon crawl, but randomizing all that shit over the course of a huge campaign is just fucking stupid.

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>>97991976
So here is what you need to do. CoS is divided into 5 parts

>Part 1
Party arrives, meets ireena, saves the village of barovia from some plight befalling it, agrees to take her to vallaki for safety, gets their fortune told, and (maybe) defeats the hags at old bonegrinder before reaching Vallaki

>Part 2
All of the vallaki shit. Your party by this point should be level 4 so they can take hits and dish them out. This is the time to explore barovia and its politics, let the players get invested in the area, some characters, this is the main hub of the entire adventure so expect your players to put down some roots in either the blue water inn, watcherhaus, or somewhere else. This part ends when the festival of the blazing sun completes and the party receives the first of the three macguffins, the TOME OF STRAHD

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>>97992190
>TOME OF STRAHD
in the module the tome of strahd is a big exposition dump, and like most dumps, they reek of shit. The problem is the tome is actually two pages of backstory which would be better served by other characters rather than giving your players something to study.

"so what do i do oh wise faggot who writes essay's for anons?"

You ever seen harry potter? The second one? Remember when harry potter gets dragged into a book and has to watch voldemort accuse my nigga hagrid of being a murderer? Do that. The tome of strahd is actually an interactive novel, and you space out the events of strahd's life over the course of the entire adventure, drip feeding the party his story rather than blowing your load all at once like a teenager when he pops his cherry. Up to you how long you want to make it, but there are a ton of resources out there and even a novel called "I-STRAHD" that i was able to read for free on like flipit or something. Its only a few hundred pages but if you wanna DM a character story, you should know the character. Also as a side note, make it a wizard spellbook with a few choice spells in it that you think your party needs, again, drip feed it, each time your party finished a strahd diary entry, give the wizard an extra spell

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>>97992198
So great, you got part 2 done, got the party something they need to keep working on instead of a one and done. This means the party gives a shit about the book and has a reason to keep it, which gives you something to take. Part 3 bitches

>Part 3
So part 3 is about exploring barovia proper as well as strahd's effect on it. He is the land after all, so who strahd is should be reflected by his country. This is a good time to get out into the wilderness, meet some of our peripheral characters like the knights of Argynvostholt, the martikovs, and the people of Krezk. This is the part of the campaign where strahd will be the friendliest with the party. Dont overdo his interactions, hes cool because hes a mysterious edgelord vampire, not your new buddy. Now depending on where you want to put the holy symbol of ravenkind tells you which direction you want to take this. Personally i put it in Argynvostholt because there is little reason to go there otherwise. The whole place is crawling with revenants and if the party attempts to fight their way through, this is a good opportunity to haunt them for the rest of the campaign with jason fucking voorees. You could give it to the Krezk people as a reward for helping the town, or the martikovs for fixing their winery, but what i dont recommend you do is put it in the amber temple. That shit is the dungeon for the sunsword

>THE HOLY SYMBOL OF RAVENKIND
Ill be honest this is the least important of the artifacts from a story perspective. What it does is gives you turn undead and some sun damage. Basically if your party doesnt have a cleric or a paladin, you will need to deal some radiant damage to strahd to fuck his shit up.

>>97978274
The scale for Vallaki and Barovia looks.. off.

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>>97992260
So part 4 is where you start to put the hurt on your party. Strahd has started to tire of their shit and is now actively trying to get rid of them. Figure out which NPC's your party likes and have strahd start to kill them, have strahd make things more difficult, the villagers may grow frustrated with the party and ostracize them since strahd mostly left people alone before they arrived. Something i did was single out who i thought was the most selfish member of the party and had strahd secretly offer a deal. Give him ireena and the macguffins they have, and he will give that party member riches and let him leave barovia alive. Strahd is going to use unorthodox and ungentlemanly tactics to defeat the party. Sow division, mistrust, keep them sleep deprived and isolated from support. The big setpiece of this part is the dungeon crawl in the amber temple, which ends with the party getting the last of the three macguffins (the sunsword imo), but dont have it just turn on like its a lightsaber. Have it just be a useless hilt till they get close to Krezk, which causes it to vibrate like your mom's bedside dresser and pull in that direction. If the party puts the lightsaber in the magic pond dont take ireena away, give her back all her memories and power the sword up. This is the point of no return, once ireena has her memories and the party has the sword, strahd is no longer bargaining and figures he either wins or has to try again after he has finished turning your bodies into furniture.

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>>97992314

>THE SUNSWORD
So the deal with this is you can give it to your martial and they can go goblin mode on strahd, but what i would recommend is give it to ireena, then have ireena kidnapped and she takes the sword with her. When the party goes to rescue her, the stakes are dire because they have to enter the lion's den and they dont have what they need to win, which is another great objective once they are back in Castle Ravenloft for the final time. The sunsword and the holy symbol of ravenkind should be used in tandem as the only way you can really hurt strahd, otherwise your party will feel like they wasted their time. Why go through all that effort if i could just spam fireball and still win?

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>>97992322
>Part 5

So everything has been leading up to this point, part 5 is the darkest hour. Ireena should be captured, some friends are dead, the party has lost the best artifact for defeating strahd. All they have to do now is crash the wedding, get the sword, kill the bad guy, and save the girl. As to where to put the sword in strahd's castle? The most logical place is the vault, strahd might be ballsy enough to keep it on her person, though if i were strahd id actually put it back in the amber temple, since its already a difficult dungeon and the party would never think to check back there. Dont do that though, your party will be pissed at having to do that dungeon again. Ireena might be your best bet here to help you find it, ruin her wedding, use the holy symbol to do it.

>>97981280
>there is no reason given as to why strahd doesnt straight up kill the whole party whenever he wants
>castle ravenloft is a fucking amusement park haunted house complete with strahd dummy flying at players going bleh bleh bleh
>castle ravenloft is unironically one of the safest places for the players to explore
>strahd controls the land
he repurposed his entire plane into an amusement park, kidnapping random gypos to work as carnies

wouldn't you do the same?

>>97981740
>>97992190
>>97992198
>>97992260
>>97992314
>>97992322
>>97992348
based effortposter

>>97978274
Tarot cards determining where certain things are is kino but only if you do it with a Ms. Cleo impersonation, iykyk.