>players take 3.5 hours to get through 4 rooms of a dungeon, the worst of which had 3 skeletonswhy are playoids like this
>>97983690I presume the issue wasn't the fight so, they're scared of traps?
>>97983859Not even, because there were no traps. The bulk of it is just them fucking around with OOC talk that didn't serve the game, including during fights
>>97983859>they're scared of traps?It's only gay if the balls touch.
>>97983876It seems like your players enjoy spending time together. The game may not be their highest priority, but a framing device that is being used to structure the free time they spend with one another.
>>97983939Op is married to his prep and cannot stand when players have fun. In short he's a storyshitter fag.
>>97983883Oh, my.
>>97983876Well, you should have said>players spend 90% fucking around instead of playing the gamethey probably do that because their GM doesn't communicate well.
>>97983939I guess so. Part of Me is happy for that but another part of Me wants to just do the game, especially since we only play every 2 weeks and I put a lot of effort into making the stuff they want to see.>>97983951Not really, it's a sandbox game. I wrote the dungeon because they said that's what they wanted to explore.>>97983992Maybe.
Why are you talking to us instead of them?
>>97984026>no no im not a storyshitterLol lmao keep seething shitter of story. Try writing a novel next time.
>>97983876>>97983690>>979839924D fixes this.
>>97983690
>>97983876Can you even call them "playoids" when they aren't even playing the fucking game?
>>97984076I don't want to.>>97984107Is this a game or a guide on how to play pretend better? Sincere question.
>>97984107big yikes
>>97984166Guide on better make believe. Take it or leave it. It works. Things like combat go fucking fast at my table. >>97984182Nah
LOL
I had 2 players during 3.5 and 4e who would constantly "try to be clever" instead of just using the games normal fucking mechanics. It was so annoying to DM. Combat already took long enough with 6 players. By the time we switch to 4e I had mostly beaten it out of them.
Why were you mad that the players wanted to interact with the game world? What's the point of playing otherwise?
>>97984226Raw DPS is always going to be more effective at dealing with enemies than "something clever". The other players are just using their spells and abilities to deal DPS. It's like they forgot that a round is supposed to represent 6 seconds. They come up with long winded elaborate actions that would realistically take multiple turns to carry out and those are turns they aren't doing DPS putting the party in danger because I do not pull punches as a DM. You will be attacked by flying invisable wizards at my table. You will get turned to stone from one bad save and left behind at my table.
>>97984299No, it's only more effective if the game is designed that way.Damage is the least effective mechanci in the game btw
>>97984299>You will be attacked by flying invisable wizards at my table.3.5 was insane. I preferred 4e.
>>97983690>>97984026Best tip I've seen when it comes to players getting distracted is showing that you are paying attention to them (laugh with that funny joke, quip back at their comment, etc.) and inmediately after ask lightly a "can we keep going?" since sometimes they just need a little nudge and a reminder that you are waiting for them, if there's no improvement you're on your own tho
>>97984312Damage is the only effective mechanic.Asking your personal DM for something not written in the book or a direct part of the agreed-upon houserules for your isolated table that only happens if he feels like it is not a mechanic, as "effective" as it may be.The situation as it begins, progresses, and is resolved will only come up once.If it happens again in the same campaign, it won't be handled the same way.If it happens again in a different campaign, it won't be handled the same way.If it happens at a different table, it won't be handled the same way.DM-may-I is not a mechanic. Mechanics have measurable and calculable functions, they demonstrate a logic based on a cause and effect established by those who applied the mechanic (either system designer(s) or designer(s) of the houserule), not based on whims in the moment.
>>97984526No, removing combatants from the fight is the only effective mechanic, other than bypassing the fight altogether. And damage is the least effective method of doing either.
>>97984529What do you even talking about? Ectoplasmic Wall to box out combatants?
Jesus, he really hasn't thought about the game's design for even a second
>>97984529Mechanically-speaking, there are only a few spells, high-level ones at that, which will remove combatants from a fight.And there is the Orb of Destruction that can literally mechanically remove anything, but whether or not you even find it is up to the DM, let alone if you get anything allowing any one of the party members to handle it.So sure, they're effective in terms of how well they work, but availability hurts practical effectiveness.
Let's see if you can be educated. A mature gold dragon, CR 19 has an armor class of 33, 325 average hitpoints, and damage reduction 10.Let's suppose we have 26 Strength thanks to DM pity magic items. A fighter 19, after our STR +8, has an attack routine of +27 / +22 / +17 / +12. So our attacks have average accuracy of 75% / 50% / 25% / 5%.A medium greatsword deals 2d6. So with our strength bonus of +8, it deals 10 to 20 damage, for an average of 15. This gives us expected damage of 11.25 + 7.5 + 3.75 + 0.75, for a total of 23.25 damage per turn. (Remember, we're assuming a magic weapon, so damage reduction is bypassed.)That means that the fighter will, on average, take about 14 turns to kill the dragon. Meanwhile, the gold dragon can use its breath weapon about every 2nd turn, for 14d10, or 14 to 140 damage, with a save DC of 29.A mature gold dragon has a Dexterity of 10.Shivering Touch deals 3d6 Dexterity damage, an average of 10.5, before metamagic, thus paralyzing the dragon in a single action, on average.Shivering Touch is a third level spell.Would you like more examples?
Yep, run away, as per usual.
>>97984610OP's problem seems to be more the players aren't actually dungeon crawling, not that they're killing enemies in an inefficient way.Also your example should take into account the spell resistance. Though maybe with Spell pen feats it's less of a factor than I think.
>>97984610The statement of raw dps was colloquial. The point I was trying to make was that 2 of my 6 players wasted everyones time coming up with "clever" 2-4 turn solutions to problems that would be more easily answered by doing damage to the enemy's directly using the games established mechanics.
>>97984891Sure, let's take that into account. SR 25, CR 19 creature. With a caster level of 19, that's a 75% chance of success. Or we could just use assay spell resistance and automatically succeed.
>>97984895No, making decisions isn't wasting time.If your game has dominant strategies, your game is bad. Play something else.
>>97984895Honestly you'd think players would learn that their clever solutions aren't actually that clever. Had a couple of situations like that.I had a player try to tie a rope to a dagger to use it as a 'reaching weapon' when they couldn't reach an enemy.Another time I had a player throw ale onto a table mimic and light it on fire. They were kind of irritated that I said "You can't do that in the same turn you throw the ale"Though sometimes the clever solution is the right one. Like they once used a bag of tricks to get some phase spiders to attack the creature it produced so they could hit them first.If only they could all be like that last one. I like clever solutions like that. It's simple and effective.
Damn, must suck to be playing a game where you can't do anything cool. Thank god I'm not you.
>>97984979There's genuinely clever solutions that give you an advantage and ones that are just dealing damage just inefficiently.
And all of the examples you posted aren't dealing damage inefficiently. Thank god I'm not you.
>>97984299>Raw DPS is always going to be more effective at dealing with enemies than "something clever"Your encounters are bad, I won't even read the rest
>>97984299Pro /tg/ tip: If you ever see anon posting using MMORPG terms like "DPS" in their argument, their frame of reference is to video game logic. They think vidya represent good examples of roleplaying games. They think MMORPG language makes sense when describing roleplaying. They think in terms of "stats", "DPS", "proc", "tanks", etc. You can safely ignore what these people have to say because they aren't actually playing roleplaying games at their tables (assuming any play is happening at all).
>>97984299I like the creative solutions that aren't about damage. That take away some advantage the enemies have that can't be taken away by a spell either because you're ill prepared or something.A way I'd put it is creative ideas work best when they change the situation, not just replace your attack.
>>97984107post the pdf or buy an ad
>>97984217if the players are constantly "trying to be clever" then make a campaign that rewards thatjust structure the game based on the players you have, not the players you want
>>97984965So why shouldn't you be able to tie a dagger to a rope?
>>97985430just use a bow
>>97985301>DPS only exists in video gamessure
>>97985378It's free on DTRPGfiles.catbox.moe/xsqomc.pdf
Thank god I am not forced to play D&D to have games.
>>97985455cool, I'll give it a read
>>97985455>>97984205>>97984107I like what it's putting down so far but I feel like it breaks down as soon as you hit the essentials of making this approach work.To summarize the "High Trust" requirement, players should:>act in good faith>be proactive with their character goals>attempt to improve their roleplay>know the rules>provide feedback for themselves and others>not cheat>not take in-character disagreements personallyI can't think of a single player I've had that could check these boxes.
>>97985444>>97985527>>97985893a bot?
>>97984526You've never DMed for a party with a Mass Shutdown Caster and it shows.
>>97984965Well here's a first. Until tonight I've never stopped reading a post out of sheer boredom.
>>97985453Tabletop analogue would be DPR or DPT. Or GTD.
>>97985894No, he said "bow."
>>97985791I roleplay with these people multiple times a week. Both online and in person. Part of it is explaining these concepts to in person people and vetting players. It's not too hard to find likeminded adults that want something more than "beer and pretzel" RPG
>>97985894It's a low-functioning autist who tends to get stuck in a loop when people don't give him attention. Just report and ignore.
>>97984205I see. I watched a video about it, seems interesting. I always prefer players to describe what they're doing over asking to roll - and I'll often give out a free success if they can give a good description.>>97984226The problem is quite the opposite; they weren't spending most of that time interacting with the game world, it's a lot of OOC pissing around and spending way too long to decide what to do on their turns.>>97984512That's a good suggestion, I'm actually gonna try this.>>97984610What are you talking about?>>97984891>OP's problem seems to be more the players aren't actually dungeon crawling, not that they're killing enemies in an inefficient wayIt's a bit of both. They had effective means of dealing with skeletons (despite the many resistances skeletons have) that they simply chose not to use.>>97985455Thanks for sharing Anon.>>97985523We play Pathfinder 2e.
>>97983690I was in a group where we heard rumors of undead in a ruined castle so the other players wanted to buy as much holy water as possible even though we were level 5 and had magical attacks. The local temple had 6 vials on offer which the others decided wasn't enough. So we spent 2 hours looking for temples in other towns and then grinding down silver once someone realized we could make our own. Anyways, I think when making groups you have to strive for at least 50% people who will be really proactive. Extroverts, forever DMs who want to make the most of their time as a player, etc. If the slowpokes are the majority they'll drag everyone down.
>>97983876This is how Commander was created destroying Magic The Gathering.
>>97985391I eventually stopped playing with them. I just wanted as large a group as possible because it worked out that every week at least one person couldn't make it and still wanted to be able to go through with the sessions. At peak I had 7 players and that mastered for about 6 months.
>>97985443Did he have a bow?
>>97985951No, it would be DPS. A round is six seconds, so the damage you deal in a round divided by six is your DPS. Dumbass.
>>97988875You just described players being proactive. What's the problem?
>>97989033Not that poster but as the forever DM of my group I don't like it when the players go too far out into the weeds. I don't like having to improv material I didn't plan for and I don't like it when players come up with plans that don't utilize the mechanics of the game that I have to somehow consistently and fairly arbitrate. I have to remind them that around only last six seconds at least once a session once they get "creative". Thankfully we've stopped playing D&D and started playing Deathwatch so this has become much less of a problem because they are role playing soldiers following orders instead of for-profit tomb robbers.
>>97989091You sound miserable.
>>97989091Improv? They purchased holy water. What is there to improv?If you don't want them to make decisions, why did you invite them?
>>97989103My RPG group was an outgrowth of my 40k group and it is very evident over the last 2 decades of playing with these guys that no one wants the same thing out of the game. I have 6 players. 2 of them like RPing, 2 of them are min/makers and 2 of them just wanna get stoned and make jokes. I don't live in a city, I live in rural Canada so they are the players I have. If I wasn't willing to shoulder the work of DMing literally no one else in town would do it. It got better when we started playing FFG rpgs instead of D&D 3.5 though, it is a lot easier to GM.
>>97989140>3.5There's your problem. It was a massive pain in the ass giving each character something to do when your dealing with casters over level 7. Glad you moved onto a system you like better.
>>97988875I think I have a mix. 2 of My players are IRL friends of mine, the others strangers we met on discord. One of My friends is brand new but the other is experienced enough that he sort of tries to tard wrangle them into doing the obvious, but he knows he can't be too pushy about it at risk of coming across as an asshole trying to be the main character. Before they got to the dungeon they spent 1.5 hours fucking about in the town.>>97989033Quite the opposite, I think. Proactive behaviour would be grabbing your holy water and getting a move on, not wasting literal HOURS pissing around and that's generously assuming at least 90% of those 2 hours were spent actually roleplaying (not necessarily talking in character but describing what they're doing/want to do to move forward) instead of the very likely reality that at least 45 minutes of those 2 hours were just OOC banter that didn't push anything forward.>>97989091>I don't like having to improv material I didn't plan forI don't mind a little improvising and it's a necessary component of the game no matter what, but there is a fine line to be walked. At My table I ask everyone what they want to do the next game and I prepare accordingly, so when they tell Me "we want to explore this dungeon on the map", I'll write the dungeon, and I can find Myself bored if they spend a bunch of time not doing literally what they said they wanted to do.
>>97989369I always try to cater to what my players want but the group all want something different out of the game. It got better when we stopped playing 3.5 because I didnt have to bend over backwards to make a fighter or rogue relevant in a party with level 10 casters. We played 4e for around a year before we moved over to the FFG 40k rags. My job became a lot easier.
>>97989428RPG is a common enough term that it shouldnt have been autocorrected to rags. Stupid fucking phone.
>>97989428>the group all want something different out of the gameI see. That'd be really hard to reconcile. I assume you're stuck with them because of some awkward external uncontrollable factors - otherwise you'd have just found a new group by now.
>>97989539I live in rural Canada. I was lucky to find a group at all.
>>97989369No, proactive is making whatever decisions you think will serve your goals. Not doing what you think they should be doing.
>>97989551Why don't you play online?
>>97989574I have but its just not the same.
>>97989551Goddamn dude. I'd like to say you could maybe move soon but I know how fucked we are when it comes to cost of living. But maybe there's still hope.>>97989556I disagree. By necessity, you will be doing what you *think* will serve you, but there comes a point where you're just pissing around and you (along with the rest of the group) should be able to tell you're wasting time.Getting the 6 holy waters from the temple? Proactive.Spending 2 fucking hours dicking around to get EVEN MORE holy water? Unnecessary.Getting the 6 holy waters and going to the dungeon? Perfect.
>>97983876>>97988895And will be the creation of whatever comfygame comes to eat D&D's lunch with all these former tumblr OC rpers that got into D&D via critical role.But we're not quite there yet. WotC saw it down the pipe but never had a chance with that Strixhaven module. Mercer tried to make it Daggerheart, but he whiffed because it's not quite cottagecore romcom coffeeshop AU enough, it still expects adventure and combatBut it's coming.
>>97989580Indeed, it's far superior.
>>97989755Then you're wrong, and an idiot. Whatever you think serves you, is what serves you, by definition. You don't get to decide what's necessary. If he thinks it is, then it is. If you want to go to the dungeon immediately, you can. No one's stopping you.
>>97989102How?
>>97990249He's talking about DMing like its a chore. Based on other things he said in the thread it sounds like he was just frustrated DMing a party of casters in 3.5.
>>97989033I have a job and other hobbies and didn't want to fuck around for two hours to get an anti-undead weapon we didn't even use because we already had ways to hurt ethereal monsters.
>>97990181I think most of all I hate the co-opting of the word "kind"
>>97990266No it doesnt. He even stopped playing DnDogshit which solved the issue.
>>97983690Maybe if you promised not to hide every piece of treasure without forcing them to state "i search the bed, I search the walls"Or just make them roll to find traps once a room each.If they are side tracked with side conversations just tell them to either play tbe game or fire up a nintendo and play next week if they dont want to pay attention >>97984026Also, 4 or 5 grown men getting together every 2 weeks means they want to talk about their friends lives.They care whats happening with their buddies man. Likely this is their social entertainment for whole 2 week time.Maybe you're taking it vastly more seriously than them
>>97990181The very concept of "cozy fantasy" irritates Me to no end. I want to see vicious monsters ripping people's organs out, bandits being hanged for their crimes, genocides against monstrous humanoid species, the usual fare.>>97990242Not really. You can do stuff you think will advance your goals but is ultimately a waste of time.>>97990320This guy gets it.>>97990511>Maybe if you promised not to hide every piece of treasure without forcing them to state "i search the bed, I search the walls"This never happened.>roll to find traps once a roomAlready do that.>If they are side tracked with side conversations just tell them to either play tbe game or fire up a nintendo and play next week if they dont want to pay attentionMight try this.>Also, 4 or 5 grown men getting together every 2 weeks means they want to talk about their friends livesI guess so. It's not even "wrong", in that sense, but it's still frustrating to Me considering the effort I put in to try and get us all to have a fun game and it's burned on what feels like frivolous banter - especially considering we take time before the game just for that, and we have a whole discord channel if anyone wants to generally talk.
>>97983876even if there are no traps, how do the players know there are no traps without checking?
>>97990653Players should check for traps three to five times for every trap they find, and some should be hidden so well it would take a miracle to find them. But miracles do happen, adding to the epicness of the trap.
>>97990653The issue isn't that they took too much time looking for traps, because it only ever consisted of:>"I want to search for traps.">"Roll Perception.">"18.">"There are no traps."And then they moved on and did the next thing.
>>97990608>I guess so. It's not even "wrong", in that sense, but it's still frustrating to Me considering the effort I put in to try and get us all to have a fun game and it's burned on what feels like frivolous banter - especially considering we take time before the game just for that, and we have a whole discord channel if anyone wants to generally talk.In person is totally diffrent than discord by leaps and bounds, my table meets once a week...in theory. It works out to be once a month, then no misses for a few months then all of December, etc.2 of of our table get out of the house once a week at most and never with the table. 2 are single and go out all the time, me personally this is it for seeing non work related dudes.Maybe schedule dinner before game, show up 1 hour early everyone brings some non-slop food and sit and talk and joke to get it out your systems, then play.Or in-between game weeks meet up and play some multi-player games or go bowling, something.You dont want to be the guy at the end of the table "dude can you stop asking about his kids medical issue or this other dudes job promotion and tell me what the fuck you are gonna do about these orc minstrel's, get it together man"
>>97990801>In person is totally diffrent than discord by leaps and boundsAgreed, haven't gotten to play in person for a good few years now because all the usual gang moved away (Myself included). Now we have 1 of My older guys, 1 of My close friends who's brand new, and 3 people we found on discord.>Maybe schedule dinner before game, show up 1 hour early everyone brings some non-slop food and sit and talk and joke to get it out your systems, then playOne of the things I miss was sitting around the table eating and talking shit. We usually breaked mid-game for it. Good times.>Or in-between game weeks meet up and play some multi-player games or go bowling, somethingMe and My new player friend still live close enough to hang out regularly, but our other guy is 4 hours away by car. It would be nice though.
>>97990608Yep, you don't get it.
