>Platoon/company-level wargame>Designed around infantry combat from the beginning...>Players hate infantry, resent having to use basic infantry. Only want to field implausible menageries of vehicles, monsters, and superhero charactersWhy does this happen?
>>97989554>Players hate infantry, resent having to use basic infantryI think it is the tediousness of painting a lot of infantry constantly.>Only want to field implausible menageries of vehicles, monsters, and superhero charactersProbably because of lore wanking them off to sell toys and not having to paint them that much.
>>97989554The issue is having to paint 20+ mostly identical infantrymen when most people resent the painting part entirely, and many who are decent painters resent the tediousness of it.Solvable by making the platoon (reinforced platoon in actuality) game 15mm scale and leaving 28mm (32mm in actuality) scale games to skirmish only. With smaller, less detailed models painting them all becomes trivial and these complaints go away. Or people self-select into playing skirmish modes because they hate the scale of something platoon-focused or larger (like Epic) and its tiny models.
>>97989572Painting is one issue, but I think it's also that gaymers are deeply emotionally stunted people, and need to invest their ego into their games. By having a low-model-count "elite" army, they can convince themselves "Heh, I'm an elite-kinda guy." For them, the purpose of the game is not to create an immersive experience, but to have a superior kill/loss ratio to your opponent. It doesn't matter if you lose the game, or if your army makes no sense narratively; you've succeeded if you lose fewer models than your opponent. Infantry die too easily, and that's for losers.
>>97989554The real explanation relative to 40k, which is what you posted, is that the game rules are shit and basic infantry most of the times doesn't do shit except standing still on a circle for points and dying. They don't kill anything, they are barely survivable, they are simply not enjoyable to play. They are, literally, a waste of effort. Which is why the few times when basic infantry escape this trap then you see it played a lot. See for example Necron Warriors.
>>97989554I mean it works fine in Chain of Command when your basic infantry are actually useful. It’s mainly a game design problem that the game wants you to take 20+ soldiers who are both boring and largely useless to your game plan on the field.
>>97989554The setting is full of cool toys that the basic infantry don't have. More importantly, the rules have never made basic infantry all that useful, even discounting the extra painting needed.WD battle reports probably didn't help, since they used the studio models which basically meant one of each model or set and thus using a lot of anything was impossible.
>>97989554Oh and more infantry means more models which makes cover far harder to use, and makes moving a pain in the arse.
>>97989686Necron Warriors are an exception, because they were SMEQ + extra bs, which makes them superior to some faction's elites and you can just black undercoat, drybrush them all silver, oil wash the things whole and call them done.
>>97989554>Only want to field implausible menageries of vehicles, monsters, and superhero charactersyou just said the reasonwhile grunt-fantasy is real, enough for stuff like the imperial guard to have their own models, its not the only, or even main, reason want to play their dice rolling game
It’s because infantry fucking suck compared to vehicles in nu-40K>every wound to an infantry unit decreases its performance>vehicles are basically at 100% until that last few wounds, then they get a whopping -1 to hit>infantry are no longer the only units who can hold objectives, now your fat ass tank can secure an area just as well>in 10e they nerfed every single infantry portable anti tank weapon and buffed every single vehicle mounted anti tank weapon>only way to beat vehicles now is to take even more vehicles or to have a gimmick named character + support character + stratagem + infantry unit combo to maybe kill a vehicle
>>97989554Meanwhile Napoleonics are several units of 24 men(and many players like to do 36 men) of dudes in marching poses and that's the biggest genre as a whole.You guys are just lazy.
>>97989554from pic I would say terrain gets more hate than infantry
I just want to field the guys too stupid to get in college, okay?
>>97989634this, if you game has more than a tank sized vehicle and two ten man squads on each side then you should be playing 15mm at most
>>97992104Just go back to playing 7th if you don't like Nu40k. Thats my stance.
>>97993410Out of all the editions you would pick, fucking 7th?
>>97993433It's was the edition my armies were the best in.
>>97993459Same here, it still sucked
>>97989554It does feel like a disease of nerds where they don't want to play anything "normal". And they want to feel like they've outwitted the game designers and their opponents. So you get DnD campaigns where no one's a human or there's no cleric/healer but someone insists on making a bard. It's common even in GW specialist games, I've seen Necromunda campaigns without a single house gang and Mordheim campaigns without a single empire/mercenaries player.
>>97989554They make a lot of money off large expensive kits/toys and people want to buy them. In the 3rd/4th flyers, super heavies, large monsters and the most powerful characters were limited to higher points games. But that didn't make enough money for James, so they had to be shoe-horned into the standard game, no matter how retarded.
>>97993681literally happened at the last open necromunda campaign i played in a store2 enforcers, then just hordes of outcasts and venerators. I appreciated the malstrain at least, since we were in secondus. 1 house gang in 12 players, and that was me. >>97989554the hobby changed from war gamers to fags who wants to win at a boardgame. obviously no love for the hobby
>>97989635>Heh, I'm an elite-kinda guy.I still have a couple of salty players that consider Genestealer Cult over power because I insta killed girlyman with a rock cutter (due to shit 9th rules interaction) and auto mind rape a couple of titans using picture related. Something that was easily counter if you simply played the game as a wargame with some infantry squad instead of the capeshit simulator.
>>97993749I blame it partially on GW.Enforcers have more shit being made for them than any other house. While Venator and outcast mechanically has more fun things to do from the start than other houses. With the added plus that you can use random models from an existing collection. Not that you can't do that with other houses, but it is way easier with thoseThen Nu Necromunda has a tone problem it claims to be gang warfare, but in reality it is closer to proxy battle between nations. Gangs having fucking mech suits even in 40k kind of removes them from simple gang fights and move them into paramilitary territory.
>>97993749Venatortards be all "my gang is an inquisition's retinue".
>>97993806i 100% blame GW. its becoming more and more about just selling bigger more expensive kits. nobody i know gives a shit about vehicles. 100% might be a bit rough, gangs aren't as cool anymore so the theme ing has to pivot in the eyes of an investor. I really don't mind out/vens from brand new players, trying out the game. Its an easy way to grab what you got and just play. But shit, necro is one of the cheapest GW lines to get into. Never heard it described as paramilitary territory, but damn it really is. especially with the new lore set up.>>97993917lmao legit, 50% of the time. we did have one player use a bash of voidsmen and make a rogue trader gang. Blackstone style, with the trader being a broke dynasty. Which is kinda neat story wise, but fuck man, the houses are cool, play a house.
>>97993806I mean I think paramilitary is a better fit for Necromunda even with the OG fluff, but a munda campaign where only 1 person in 11 is playing a House gang does sound absolutely miserable.
>>97994224I mean Houses are basically just nations states within Necromunda. With their own borders, culture and even subraces.Of the main houses only Cawdor and Orlocks have "regular" humans everyone else is a technically not Abhuman. Van Saar are stable cancer, Escher are Amazon, Goliath are Bootleg Marines and Delaque are totally not alien hybrids. GW still is trying to pretend the game is played by super low class gangers, but the equipment and characters clearly has moved away from the underhive. On a side note my outcast and venator gangs usually are just meme ideas, like a gang based around status effects (flash, blaze, insane) so I need someway to access the market at the start to make it.I could maybe pull it with Escher but not at the start and that is kind of the issue I see with house gangs. They seem to be created at the time when GW still pretend Necro was just gangs shooting each other for scraps while today we are clearly past that.
>>97993749>hordes of outcasts and veneratorsTo be fair, these are the only gangs that actually feel like low life scum. The House gangs are quite flanderized in Nucromunda.
Meanwhile me and the lads playing our grog games
>>97994309You're right in theory, and it takes some heavy handed arbiter to keep things in line with gangers fighting over scraps. easy enough in a personal game but definitely tricky with a wider crew. But it doesnt have to be. it doesn't take much effort to just heavily limit special weapons, make sure no one of actual importance shows up, and we don't go too hard on the gear. that is a choice by the players though. >>97994351they /can/ feel like low life scum. which is fun if they do. i feel this wider trend is every where. modern players want to feel special like above. custom marine legions are always "loyalist legion but traitor primarch" or something similar. Vens are the inquisition's retinue, or something along those lines. same with outcasts always seeming to be important. the "a group of idiots scabbing together to stay alive" becomes rarer and rarer imo
People seem to have forgotten that you need a baseline for exceptional things to feel exceptional. There's the focus on named characters, and if someone's making their own fluff, it reads like Sanic the Edgehog-fanfic OC written by a 12 yo with power fantasies. The scale of 40k has been focusing on galaxy wide threats for a decade, and people mostly expect every game to reflect this. However, none of these threats are actually real. Nothing ever happens with these plotlines, because too much is at stake. The Maelstrom supplement had the right idea, it's just petty pirates doing pirate things and trying to become the most infamous pirate. That's enough, really
>>97989554Players don't take infantry when infantry don't serve a practical purpose, seeing this the rules writers attempt to make infantry useful, but fail because infantry cant meaninfully interact with half the unit types in the game, subsequently rules requiring infantry units get removed because they aren't desirable game pieces so players will try to circumvent or minimize their inclusion in army lists if forced.So minimum sized squads for scoring and elite infantry that actually do damage tend to be all you get.
>>97993396Good luck coming up with a way to balance that when one side could be 20 guardsmen and the other wise is 20 space marines. Or worse, shit like Tyranids where they are both qualitatively worse AND don't do shit like squads.What do you even want? One side gets their squad and 20 points and they can spend those points on upgrades or buying some armor or light vehicles to accompany them, and then the side with lower quality troops gets a point multiplier so they can take more shit like another squad or more upgrades or more armor and light vehicles? Seriously, how would this even work?
>>97996744Anon means 2-ten-man squads as an average, anon.
>>97996744>What do you even want?I want you to think critically and not to assume the most obviously retarded shit from my post and wonder why your assumed shit is retarded.
>>97996762I always have trouble believing that people can so retarded when discussing game design.40k does have overly large squad sizes for infantry, though. 10 should be closer towards the upper end. (some anon will misunderstand this as me saying infantry squad sizes should be reduced uniformly, and without any commensurate increase in the capabilities of individual infantry troopers).
>>97989554I will never play anything but mechanized ultramarines with a generic commander just to ragebait fags.
>>97996762>repeat exactly what you said and point out how it's stupid>hurr you retardTakes one to know one I suppose.
>>97996744>>97996760>>97996762Literally what Chain of Command does. So what's the issue? Who is trolling who here?
>>97996866It doesn't HAVE to be exactly 20-vs-20, anon. That's only an approximation.
>>97996877Yeah? No shit? But this is still two squads + HQ with a support asset vs two squads + HQ with support asset. So the answer to the sarcastic gotcha question should have been "yeah you could do it like that" and not "obviously this would never work, you're too autistic for my giant brain".This board is hopeless.
>>97993681>So you get DnD campaigns where no one's a human or there's no cleric/healer but someone insists on making a bard. It'sthat doesnt sound like it happens nearly as much as people think?humans are, by far, the most picked class in DnDelves are second place, and they are just about the most human-like non-humanin 40k, factions are mostly just determined by whats available rather than an outright desire to be strangespace marines and chaos space marines are the most played because they are the largest and most well developed factions and also the de-facto "vanilla" style armies
>>97989572>>97989634Man I can't imagine that. Building and painting your dudes is the best part! I'm absolute shit at painting but it's just so fun giving each little dude their own color and stuff.
>>97996851No, anon, what I said is that if you have a game with more than >this example of army sizethen you should be playing with smaller scale miniatures.I didn't really mean to say that there should be a limit on 20v20 infantry for playing, that was only an approx for army size example from which point you should use smaller miniatures (To be able to fit more on your table or use more realistic firing ranges, actually). The two things are totally unrelated and >>97996744 makes no sense regarding my post. It pretty much talks about something I did not even write.You fucking idiot.
>>97989634>15mm scaleToo small. 28-32mm is the perfect size for a miniature. People play because they like the miniatures, not because they like the rules.
>>97994560Yeah the independent characters used to be memes and you wouldn't see them often. Dumbasses changed this and decided to just keep a rotation going to cash as much nerdbucks as possible. Personally I liked the force org chart and how it limited you and a bunch of other rules which make it so troops are actually the only scoring units.
>>97994560in 40k space marines are the baseline, always have been and always willdespite being the epitome of average in the sense of rules, everyone always talks about them in the same way the fluff does, which is as unstoppable one-man killing machines rather than above-average cannon fodder who have a 1-in-4 chance to get murked by a normal human with a plasma gun, which is nowhere near as rare on the table as the fluff suggestseven bringing up the crunch of spacemarines being the baseline rather than exceptional is either met with a chuckle or outrage without really changing anyones opinion that they are, in fact, exceptional
>>97989554RETVRN! And all your complaints will wash away.
>>97999622I think my ideal 40K would be basically this. Hell, even up to like 1K as long as it had interesting scenarios, a strict vehicle limit, and non-symmetrical tables. Stick in some stuff competitive faggots would hate like a random wargear/artifact deck and NPC aliens/monsters and voila.
