>>98037619
>Most players expect GM to be their slave and cater to every whim?
All I expect is to be able to play the game we all agreed to play.

>>98037635
I don't remember agreeing to play with imbeciles who literally jump god while being level 10 with expectation to win. And if you leave the table after that, that's fine, I don't want to waste my time on idiots.

>>98037619
Is this just some weird passive-aggressive complaint about a specific person and situation that no one here but yourself knows anything about?

>>98037649
>games are about challenging player skill and luck
>agreed-upon game is about exploring dungeons and fighting monsters
>expectation is that exploration is doable with proper planning and average rolls, and combat is relatively scaled to the party's total power
>retard DM throws an immortal at the party
>gets mad when the players who are there for a combat and exploration game try to fight

>>98037672
Judging by >>98037649, it is.

>>98037619
Never happens. My players are overly cautious to the point of cowardice, they try to avoid fights and never risk anything. Honestly, they'd fit in well playing 2e.
The paladin's battlecry is
>There's too many of them! Run!

>>98037619
>And what's the reason for this?
Most often, this happens because the GM misrepresented the NPC's power. I had a party where some noble threatened to cause us trouble if we continued on our mission. None of our characters knew anything about him, other than that he was very influential. The meeting took place right in his estate, and there were only a couple of guards in the room, so we jumped him. It turned out he was some kind of dragon-blooded fighter-sorcerer; the armor rack behind him came to life, and the doors magically locked. We were all captured, except for one character, who orchestrated our escape.

>>98037694
>agreed-upon game is about exploring dungeons and fighting monsters
No, sounds more like your excuse for being retard who doesn't pay attention and wants to turn everything into a massacre. Even when you're literally told that this event should be resolved diplomatically. And for some reason, the most retards like this are among Barbarians and Paladins, well, with Barbarians it's expected, the whole archetype is created for braindead morons, but the fact that most Paladins are trigger happy maniacs was a surprise.

It's often assumed that the GM doesn't outright want to kill the players (unless it's one of these games) and if the GM presents an enemy, that the players have a fair chance of defeating said enemy.

>>98037726
One time, our party came back from a terribly botched quest to meet this merchant that hired us. He blamed us for fucking up, we told him that we'd like him to do better, one thing led to another, and suddenly he summons his guards (who were never described to be present at the scene) to attack us.
There were 30 of them, and each had a +10 attack bonus (a pit fiend has +14). Within a round, they've killed everyone who did not run.

Then the DM posted this thread.

>>98037619
Once saw a dude’s character punch a living void and nearly lose his arm. Then nearly lose his leg kicking at it.

To this day we still wonder if he’d have tried headbutting the thing in response if someone else didn’t outright pull and drag said character away from the living void to avoid further loss of life and limb.

>>98037747
Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration.
What I also wanted to say is that it's not always a disaster when players fight and lose. The part where we were held captive was quite interesting. Well, one of the characters died from torture, but the player didn't seem particularly upset about it.

>>98037619
do they know the NPC is undefeatable? did you make that clear in a non metagamey way? did you outright told them?

if I had a penny whenever a GM threw an unassuming never seen before monster/NPC and nobody at the table got the subtle hints that it was impossible to defeat because "it's tiny size while you fought large or huge size monsters in this dungeon, clearly that wombat looking creature is impossible for your current skills!!" I would have 5 pennies, which isn't much.

I also had my fare share of GMs getting mad at us for fleeing from an encounter thinking it wasn't doable and "ruining" the campaign for the GM because that monster was doable. Example a pack of T-Rexes

>>98037619
>How often your players jump NPCs that they clearly can't defeat?
rarely

>And what's the reason for this?
failure to communicate to the players that this is not someone they want to mess with
or introducing an extremely powerful being without considering the possibility someone might attack them

>Most players expect GM to be their slave and cater to every whim?
most players expect jack shit from the GM and just accept whatever the GM has prepared
the players only start caring when the GM plays obviously unfair to the point the game is not fun

>>98037747
Kek this reminds me a similar situation, we had been falsely accused of commiting a crime and had to flee the city. We went to the harbor to flee on a boat. My char has the ability to detect ill intent towards me in a 100meter radius (power directly given by the GM at char creation without me even asking or knowing it existed), the coast was clear, the sheriff appears out of the blue and summons the guard...then suddenly we're completely surrounded. The entire city guard (1000 men btw on a small city) was at 101meters away from us at all moment.

My power was never revealed in game btw, sure you could infer I can detect danger but distances and how it works never came out of my char's mouth...and yet.

what would even be the point of adding an enemy you know the players cant defeat and then just letting the players attack them without thinking about what happens next?

and if one player just yells out "i attack the guy", then obviously its his problem if he gets his ass kicked, but if the whole party is discussing OOC about attacking the guy, why wouldnt the DM adjust the NPCs actions to dissuade the party in some subtle way?

>>98037745
if you do include a super powerful enemy to subvert your player expectations, then why wouldnt you somehow signal to the players that just walking up to them and hitting them is a bad idea?

or if you know for a fact that the players will pick a fight with extremely powerful enemies regardless of how you describe them then why just deliberately set up an encounter that will kill them instead of just having the super powerful enemy just yamcha the strongest party member and then leave without bothering to fight everyone else because its obviously a waste of their time

>>98037726
>the GM misrepresented the NPC's power
I lost a monk in pf1e on a you can't run away encounter just like that, Gm thought I was several orders of magnitude more powerful than I really was. We even ran simulations after the fact where he was playing my monk against the same monster and after 5 attempts he realized how fucking wrong he was

>>98037902
>if you do include a super powerful enemy to subvert your player expectations
Nobody adds powerful enemies to subvert some expectations. Idiots.
GMs may make NPCs very powerful so that the players instead attempt diplomacy with them, gain them as an ally, work for him, or use other means like politicking and subterfuge to overcome him.
GMs may add a powerful monster so that the players are forced to sneak, take different routes, or trick it. Or come back with reinforcements, or when they are stronger.

>>98037920
>Nobody adds powerful enemies to subvert some expectations. Idiots.
the first post says that its in the context of a game where fights are assumed to be against relatively equal fights
both your examples are subverting the player expectation of having a fair fight by forcing a different approach

this is all contextual, because if your players have fought very little in previous sessions, then having an actual face to face fight would also be subverting expectations
but it is very rare to have a party who dont want to have a lot of combat

>>98037932
Don't make it this difficult.
GMs may add powerful enemies for the reasons that I explained, not to subvert any expectations. That the players have their assumptions proven wrong is not the goal of the GM. This is a logical fallacy.

>>98037875
Most GMs don't have the ice in their stomach to realise when the players are fleeing the adventure, and willing to bend reality to prevent it. Railroad a loss, cheat an encounter, become overly reticent to provide progress, etc. Instead of just accepting that the players are bailing and letting that be it.
>You can see the ship. You realise this is it, if you get on that boat you'll be able to sail to Fartistan and escape this crazy town, but you'll never figure out how the earl managed to steal your nose, or if you will ever get back.
Most people with a modicum of decency will then accept if they get on the boat that's the end of the campaign and you'll have to reroll for the next one, or they will have the wonderful opportunity to roleplay out a 'no, we can't run' moment. Shit, we all want to play, no one walks out of the game unless that's what they really want. Inexperienced GMs or controlling GMs don't accept that.

>>98037619
I have one player who does that a lot.
His characters almost invariably gets his ass beat and his fellow players' chacracters get caught in the mess as well.
His excuse, when they lick their wounds: "Now they know we don't back down!"
To which the other players reply: "We did back down! We ran away like whipped whore, with good reason!"
I've played with these guys since 1982. Risk-assessment is something that guy is literally incapable of.

>>98037619
>Most players expect GM to be their slave and cater to every whim?
That's because that's what GMs are. You exist to entertain us. Cope.

>>98037732
Yeah, it's literally >>98037672.
Yet another useless faggot crying about his retard players online instead of talking to them like adults.

>OP post is clearly talking about NPCs
>rrrreeee, GM make enemy too strong!!!!!!
I don't know. Maybe so you psychopaths would stop jump EVERY NPCs in your way? It can't be that simple, can it?

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>>98038260
>retard players
You say it like another type of player exists in nature.

>>98037619
Not super often. The biggest issue was my players suffering from main character syndrome and being snarky to powerful NPC. I was left with two choices, either punish the PC's by having them get their ass beat or cuck my NPC by not having them retaliate in anyway. Stupidly I usually chose the latter. I really hate when players do that kind of stuff.

>>98037726

I find these problems are usually worse with parties who have gained power and experience. For example, if you are new to cyberpunk mercenary shenanigans then a corporate goon squad is a real threat. Now take the same now badass party when a real threat to them would be say an elite spec ops team. Now when the GM tries to punish players for irritating a middle manager with an elite corporate asset the players are right to be pissed if there is not a damn good explanation as to why some lower level suit has that kind of pull. Same goes for fantasy. All the sudden the town guards are 8th level fighters and there is a level 14 wizard around for some inexplicable reason.

>>98037694
I've only ever had a GM throw an overleveled enemy at the party a few times, and it was always the same guy GMing, and he was always so smug about it. Like he'd snarkily insist that shouldn't have walked up on a hag who instantly decided to throw 9th level spells without warning or initiative rolls instead of getting hit for enough damage to kill our characters twice over the moment we saw the NPC. Or we should have just run away from the Vampire Lord on his flying horse, because the rules for running away sure work great when the enemy has greater base speed and ranged attacks, huh? It was clearly our fault that an ogre was able to sneak up on us and get an ambush round without anyone being asked to make any rolls from the ogre.

All that shit about it always being the player's fault when the GM bullshits his way into an unwinnable encounter is typically bullshit. There's never any chance to stop and painstakingly research the monster, it's lair, its attitude, and its power level because the indignant faggot tells the party that it was their fault they died when the first round, first turn breath weapon of the high level dragon covers the entire battle grid.

>>98038595
>a damn good explanation as to why some lower level suit has that kind of pull. Same goes for fantasy.
Because no authority figure likes to be openly challenged? In real life, no matter who a mass shooter kills, I guarantee you the government will send whatever it takes to restore control and order. The fact that you and your group don't understand this makes you wonder how antisocial you all are?
>All the sudden the town guards are 8th level fighters and there is a level 14 wizard around for some inexplicable reason.
Once again, society comes to the rescue. Has the party committed too many mass murders? Send bounty hunters, gallant knights seeking glory, or a fanatical order of paladins looking to make the party pay for everything. Of course, this requires GM to actually have balls.

>>98038633
>Or we should have just run away from the Vampire Lord on his flying horse, because the rules for running away sure work great when the enemy has greater base speed and ranged attacks, huh?
This is always the worst one from a GM. They throw out a high level enemy expecting the party to flee but then have him fly or teleport to chase them indicating that escape should be impossible.

>>98037910
I wish more GMs would be willing to do that sort of turnabout when the party has a complaint.