>>98056103
honestly I don't know any underground stuff
Basic Fantasy is not really popular
Dragonslayer?

Y'all should look though the OSRchive, it's got some near stuff that is not very well known. I found 2 in there recently Ambition & Avarice. Which is an interesting and fault extensive neo clone and a game called Crypts and Tunnels. This one looks to be a one man job based off 2e, but using the S&P point buy class option of all things. It uses AI art but he is up front with it and I can't find a damned thing about it outside the archive.

>>98056132
I had a friend that sent me pics a few years ago where a library had printed out BFRPG and a bunch of paper minis, a few maps and an adventure and had them in little boxes you could check out

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>>98056103
Its an oldie but Beyond The Wall has an interesting take on group character and starting village generation. It was initially designed to do convention play but I found its design a lot of fun. The Threats and Fronts stuff is some of the better inspired by pbta into osr material I've seen and the Further Afield campaign threats work quite well as domain play tools.
The character expansion for race-as-class give variety without too much fucking around.
All around well made.
Haven't run the sword & sorcery version more geared for connan and elric sort of stuff but it seemed like it would work when I was reading it although perhaps less required given that's already the tone a lot of OSR goes with compared to comfy village mystery with young adult fantasy tones Beyond the Wall goes for.

>>98056181
Fuck I loved beyond the wall, just ran it once as a pick up game but group character gen was so fun.

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>>98056103
One I've discovered recently that I really liked the look of is Old Dragon 2e, a BR retroclone of all things. It uses an B/X chassis, but then it includes a lot of common quality of life house rules like ascending AC, separate race and class, D6 Thief skills, Read and Detect Magic as inherent abilities for the Wizard, the ability for Clerics to convert any spell slot to Cure Wounds, that sort of stuff. It also has four subclasses for each of the main four classes if you're into more character options. It's apparently pretty popular in Brazil, but, unfortunately, there's no English versions of the actual books. Closest we have is a guy converted the main book to a text only PDF and translated that to English. Rules are still solid, but unfortunately that book only covers up to level 10, so we don't have higher level class information or stronghold rules in English yet.

>>98056199
>>98056199
I got 2 good campaigns out of it as a starter. Both groups picked the Barrow starter but ended up being fairly different which was neat to see. I do want to try some of the other ones, although I think having the right group for the Fey one is necessary and it doesn't work in my head nearly as well.
The domain play threats I've used in a bunch of other stuff not BtW specific.

>>98056264
There used to be a notable huehue contingent here, might be able to get one to translate if they're still around.

>>98056294
I really would like to do something more long term out of it. But do many game, do little time.

>>98056264
Okay this sounds up my alley

>>98056264
>BR retroclone
I miss when BR OSR meant a cool thing.

>>98056377
Brazil has all these odd quirks with video games and table top games and mikus that I'm 100% behind.

Fuck, did just saying BR OSR trigger him somehow?

Not related to the thread topic, but what do folks feel about cantrips?

>>98056442
It's in the OP dumbass

>>98056449

Bloody mary rules man

>>98056439
NTA, but yeah the more I hear the more I like. Old dragon sounds fantastic.

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>>98056450
Always think of him first.

>>98056460
The OP mentions that it's a schizo hijack thread? Dang, I missed that but props for honesty ig

>What's your favorite lesser known OSR game?
Definitely ACKS II

>>98056469
Ya know, I have no idea who that is. Looks like adventure time art, but never got into that show.

I like cantrips and want to add them to OSR games I run. I may crib the rules from OSE

As always all, hide the troll comments, do not engage.

>>98056491
For sure ACKS II, it's a lot less well known than ACKS but has all the same good features and more.

>>98056494
That's Abracadaniel.
https://youtu.be/UWMfQ6qDPKQ?si=1EDktEkLJguGHsKA

I think the cantrips from Unearthed Arcana are fine, though anyone used to having Prestidigitation in Pathfinder or 5e is definitely gonna think they're pretty underwhelming.
https://archive.org/details/tsr02017addunearthedarcana/page/n45/mode/2up

>>98056567
I had never looked at the UA cantrips, but yes along those lines. I don't think combat cantrips are much line with the OSR spirit, but Info think wizards should have cantrips

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>>98056103
I generally prefer better known OSR games.

>give me the underground stuff.
Really underground?

Like, borderline heretical?

I like Mazes. Or at least 50% of it. It uses a pretty cool dice system I've never encountered before that's light and easy to use. The mechanics are incredibly limited to the point where it can only theoretically even have 4 classes total, and is abstract to a degree where the DM gets to build up "Fuck You" points or something like that.

It''s a dungeon-crawl focused game deliberately designed to take OSR modules and turn them into much lighter adventures, and the best way I think I can describe it is if you pussiefied the fuck out of Shadowdark and than pussiefied it two more times. Still pretty good, because the dice system works much better than it has any right to.

>>98056199
>but group character gen was so fun.
Low-prep games are the kind of innovation I'm down for.

>>98056716
It was fun, it's a nice break from normal games. Really wouldn't mind running it longer.

>>98056156
>Ambition & Avarice
I was at a party about two months ago and wound up discussing that game with the biggest grognard I've ever met.
Probably over 300lbs of pure, sweaty grog. Completely unprompted, he explained to me why the guy who made that game is going to Hell, and it was because every character was set up to be a rapist.
Apparently, every character gets a bunch of dungeon skills that lets them be very good at breaking into places and spying on people and sneaking about and generally being a creep, and the game actively encourages everyone to be greedy and selfish and to take whatever they want.
I asked him if it actually encouraged raping, and he explained that giving everyone that set of skills, including one just called "FORCE", was practically telling them to play as a literal gangbangers. He asked if, given those set of skills, what would anyone reasonably be expected to do with them.
I have no idea if he was being serious.

>>98056156
>reposting the same shit from before
Kek, can't even be bothered to proompt an LLM for some new sloppa

>>98056753
If you're being serious, that dude was on some shit. A&A has a small, broad skills list that works like 5e. Everyone can try them but some classes are just better at them. They are Breakage,Climbing, Direction, Dominance,Examination, Foraging,Knowledge,Leadership, Mechanics and Stealth.

>>98056818
Looks pretty suspicious to me

>Breakage lets you break down windows and doors, so you can rape.
>Climbing lets you get into second story windows, so you can rape.
>Direction lets you determine the location of your next victim, so you can rape.
>Dominance actually sounds pretty innocent, no issue with that one.
>Examination lets you notice the traits of someone who can't defend themselves, so you can rape.
>Foraging -> Foraping -> FOR RAPING. I rest my case.
>Knowledge, of the best techniques to rape.
>Leadership lets you set whisper networks and ingratiate yourself into positions of influence and lack of accountability to take advantage of in-group bias. So you can rape.
>Mechanics lets you hotwire someone's car and drive to someone else's house, so you can rape.
>Stealth is probably fine too, don't really see how this one could be used to rape.

I think the grog might have had a point anon

>>98056818
>Breakage,, Dominance, Examination, and Stealth.
To be fair, those do sound a little rapey.

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>>98056818
He was probably talking about 1st edition A&A, which has only six skills: Climb, Force, Locks, Notice, Sneaks, and Traps.

>>98056850
>>Foraging -> Foraping -> FOR RAPING. I rest my case.
Bulletproof. Someone needs to find... oh my god, the guy who made the game is called Chubby Funster.

>>98056881
>Traps
So he saw names and never actually looked at it. Makes sense, I am not sure what kinda shit you are into that "oh yeah so much rape" is your first instinct

>>98056851
Sounds more like BDSM at best. Not sure how y'all get rapy out of it, unless cnc is your thing but safe words people, safe words

Just done FYI though Dominance is for summoning. It's how good the magic types are at with controlling summoned critters. Because once you let em out, if your control slips they are not unsummoned. In which case you likely wish Thier was a safe word

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>>98056915
>Dominance is for summoning
I've been on /x/ enough times to know where that leads to.

>>98056892
Ugly Bastard Games Inc.

>>98056892
Somehow I doubt that's his Christian name.

>>98056818
Speaking as a degen my eyes did go right to Breakage, Dominance and Examination. Greybeard the Greasy may be onto something.

>>98056973
Well, gamers tend to be kinky so, there is that

>>98056818
Some people just can't keep their mind out of the gutter.
https://youtu.be/EzgUGY36gqM?si=p6xp_IW5C9HpFaP_

>>98056264
you got a link to the text pdf?

>>98057011
Here you go anon. It's not free, but it is cheap. Don't know any other links, but I admittedly haven't look too hard.
https://arcsntdev.itch.io/old-dragon-2e-srd-en

>>98056181
>Its an oldie but Beyond The Wall
It can't be that ol-
>2013
AHHHHHHHHH.

>>98056892
>Chubby Funster
Oh, that's the guy who called ACKS the best OSR game! Or rather, a guy – one of many.

>>98056915
>Thier

>>98057157
I felt this in my soul dude

>>98057177
That's cool anon. Between his work on stuff for Shadowdark, ACKS II, and his own system, it's nice to see someone release stuff for a wide range of OSR games. Too many designers get anchored to just one game, experimenting with multiple really helps make you a better designer. a>>98057177
That's cool anon. Between his work on stuff for Shadowdark, ACKS II, and his own system, it's nice to see someone release stuff for a wide range of OSR games. Too many designers get anchored to just one game, experimenting with multiple really helps make you a better designer. Have you checked out his Dark Sun hack for Shadowdark? I've been eyeing at wondering how it is.

>>98057221
Damn, what the fuck happened here lol, my bad.

>>98056450
So speaking from the OSR justification.

People think having more spells makes casters more relevant or fun. Imo it pulls away from using magic items to fill in that gap and leans towards the thought process of making people more roll reliant.

Cantrips also feel like they were meant to be small things but people keep trying to game them. So you get stuff like party tricks and eldritch blast in the same category.
I also don't think they're too necessary with the amount of downtime most OSR games have where things are done over a matter of days outside of dungeons.

Only seeing his own game and shadowdark stuff

>>98057237
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/467718/warlords-of-gavardia

>>98057232
I think casters shouldn't have 1 spell and then they are done. I do agree cantrips should not approach 1st level damage, if they damage at all.

I have been looking at S&W, let's use that as an example. In the book you have one damaging spell at level one, magic missle. As it can do 1d4 or 1d6 damage, you can't have a cantrips do 1d4 damage. So to me that means 1 HP or at best 1d2 HP damage.

>>98057247
Ah missed that one. It's nice to see folks working across different systems. Which is not odd in the RPG world

>>98057255
You gotta remember the average dungeon had about 3 fights per floor. Which means you've got like one fight you guarantee as a win with some goofy spell like sleep.
Of course this is assuming the referee allows you to take sleep.

I get the logic, but I also think magic feels more magical when it's OP and rare

>>98057311
That's fair, I just think wizards should feel like wizards and to me that includes small magics as well.

it's quiet. Did the trolls finally get clapped?
>>98056892
No way, did he make that?

>>98057255
>I do agree cantrips should not approach 1st level damage, if they damage at all.
I'm reminded of thoughts I've had about making the "magic crossbow" explanation of that niche extremely literal, where the cantrips' damage is balanced against theirs and their re-preparation time is balanced against re-loading one, ultimately just saving you encumbrance from any components/foci being lighter than the bolts and crossbows themselves.

Still damages the "magic should be powerful and rare" thematic aspect, but the "just use a crossbow" answer to "what do when out of spells?" gets axed for The Magic Man indeed having magic as his mainstay instead of a "Spotlight On Me Now" button.

>>98057311
>You gotta remember the average dungeon had about 3 fights per floor.
What? Where are you getting that from?

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>DMing 5e for years
>Started looking at other systems
>PF2e has too strict math and once you optimize your character every turn is the same
>PF1e is bloated
>More narrative games like PbtA feel too floaty and more like improv prompts than actual games
>Realized I had adopted a somewhat "rulings over rules" attitude over time because 5e has shit rules
>Look into OSR stuff
>Generally like what I see
>Enjoy rules written like a person with no nonsense instead of stilted video game logic rules
>But also enjoy the tactical combat and builds other systems provide
I'm at a weird conflict of liking OSR's openess and fluidity while craving the structure, tactility, and builds of newer conventional systems. Which is inherently at odds with each other.

>>98057464
I don't know how to solve your predicament anon, i can reccommend games from either camp but they're not cross compatible playstyle wise. If you want better newschool, play nimble. If you want OSR, play BX or some clone of it (shadowdark might work.)

>>98057221
That's cool anon. Between his work on stuff for Shadowdark, ACKS II, and his own system, it's nice to see someone release stuff for a wide range of OSR games. Too many designers get anchoThat's cool anon. Between his work on stuff for Shadowdark, ACKS II, and his own system, it's nice to see someone release stuff for a wide range of OSR games. Too many designers get anchoThat's cool anon. Between his work on stuff for Shadowdark, ACKS II, and his own system, it's nice to see someone release stuff for a wide range of OSR games. Too many designers get anchow it is.

>>98057255
>>98057311
LMAO these are the retards pretending to be "broad OSR"
No wonder you had torouble posting in the actual /osrg/

>>98057311
>the average dungeon had about 3 fights per floor.
which dungeon is that exactly?
c'mon anon
>>98056450
>cantrips
related to the thread topic absolutely categorically no
spells are paper buttons and handing out limitless paper buttons is the opposite of what OSR is
low level magic users have plenty of useful shit to do in a fight at the very least because they have a pair of hands

if your players want cantrips they are playing the wrong game and there is no point in making them do what they dislike, just switch to 5e/PF/Draw Steel/Forbidden Lands/Dragonbane/Nimble or whatever

>>98057354
>it's quiet.
the previous thread also had what appears to be just a single dedicated schizo
basically in one of the previous threads a couple days ago
their flood-posts accidentally revealed that the guy they are all simping for ... let's put it this way "made a blunder" IMO probably actually knowingly and with ulterior motives, and he wouldn't want that to go widespread

I'm purposefully being vague and not linking any posts
because I respect their newfound restraint and I think an unjust peace is better than a just war in this hobby

>>98057464
>Which is inherently at odds with each other.
Yes it is, anon, sorry
though you might want to look at some games that while not being OSR are going for oldschool vibes
I would specifically recommend looking into Dragonbane or Forbidden Lands
DB is a d20 roll under with stacking advantages/disadvantages
FL is Y0 engine with dicepools and a heavy emphasis on travel and survival mechanics
unlike most other modern systems characters can get maimed or die, and carelessly using magic can lead to deadly consequences

>>98057955
>muh leftists
>>>/pol/

also you are fighting windmills
would you actually be against leftist that little blunder of your prophet would be all over the internet by now
no, we are just extremely annoyed at you acting like total cunts

>>98058012
Of all the bait he's been dumping in this thread, you bite at the most obvious? Leave him be.

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The next ACKS II class is the Nobiran Wonderworker. This similar to an AD&D Cleric/Magic User, but with Magic-User fighting capabilities, and several cool special class powers like immunity to diseases, Paladin-like Laying on Hands, extra henchmen, +2 to all saving throws, longevity, and one extra HP at first level.

Look at that spell progression! At 11th level, it has access to 6th level Arcane AND Divine spells. And it also has full magical research abilities, including high-level ritual spells (the equivalent of spells of levels 7-9 in AD&D), magic items, crossbreeds, constructs, undead... and the ability to become undead himself!

This class really kicks ass, Macris is a fucking genius, but it's hard to qualify for: you need 11 or better in all six ability scores.

If I ever roll high enough, I'm definitely going to play a Wonderworker.

>>98057955
>Its not coincidence that ACKs is considered the greatest OSR of all time and is made by a conservative Christian.
Macris is a libertarian atheist, not a conservative Christian.

ACKS is the greatest OSR game of all time, though.

>>98057232
Cantrips really should be primarily for flavor, ie. you meet a mage and he lights his pipe with magic and no one has to stare at him like he just wasted a spell slot just to save a match.

>>98058111
>flavor
>you meet a mage and he lights his pipe with magic
revolting

>>98058121
Half of Gygax's modules were long-winded "flavor."

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>>98058122
Here's a blurb from Keep on the Borderlands for an example of Gygax-Approved™ amounts of flavor.

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>>98058122
>half
>>98058149
>one paragraph out of 36 pages
lmao kill yourself fishfag

>>98058122
When in doubt, ignore.

>>98058198
kek
It's hilarious because that's exactly how fishfag "proves" that 2e is OSR. He's autistically scoured through every single comment on /osrg/, sixteen years of stuff, found a handful individual comments about 2e that weren't shouted at and another handful OPs that were foegyggy, ambiguous, or didn't bother spelling out that 2e isn't OSR because it wasn't necessary at the time, and parades them around as if they were representative of the whole general for the whole sixteen years.

That behavior and thought process are literally insane.

>>98058212
>Gets proven wrong
>Y-you're a troll! I'm ignoring you!

>>98058122
Name one.

>>98058068
This is a very interesting class! Explain something to me, though: I thought the Auran Empire was Roman/Byzantine-flavored, but the names in this seem to be Sumerian or maybe Akkadian or some shit? Mesopotamian, anyway.

>>98058247
>He's autistically scoured through every single comment on /osrg/
Please understand, Anon: he literally doesn't have any other recourse. His only other option is to just cave and admit he's in the wrong.

>>98057464
Honestly, check out ad&d 2e, it has weapon proficiencies and secondary skills. Combat & Tactics adds more tactical combat to the game along with fighting styles and armor proficiencies. Then there’s also all the splat books. I’d never say use all of them. Personally I only use Total Barbarian just to add the base Barbarian class. You can make a short list of what kits you allow. The end result is core rules of ad&d but with more modern character build options

>>98058149
>the forest you have been passing through has been getting more dense, tangled, and gloomier than before
Ok, got it.

>the sunlight is dim, the air dank, there is an oppressive feeling here - as if something evil is watch and waiting to pounce upon you
Ok, thanks.

>There are bare, dead trees here and there, and upon one a vulture perches and gazes hungrily at you.
Ok can we go into the dungeon I think you mentioned one about six minutes ago...

>A flock of ravens rise croaking from the ground, the beat of their wings and their cries magnified by the terrain to sound loud and horrible.
*looking over character sheet. Yep, identical to what it was since the last time it was checked.*

>Amongst the litter of rubble, boulders, and dead wood scattered about on the ravine floor, you can see bits of gleaming ivory and white - closer inspection reveals that these are bones and skulls of men, animals, and other things,...
*playing footsy with the DM's girlfriend. She grins deviously....*

>You know that you have certainly discovered the...
>*pause for dramatic effect*
>...CAVES OF CHAOS
*light applause*

>>98056103
>TQ
I like White Box Cyclopedia. I don’t think I’d run it just as it is. I’d probably use it to steal things from and tack them onto another system like S&W

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>>98058413
That's actually not too far off from advice given in the /osrg/ seven years ago.

>>98058068
great more AI main art to my collection

>>98058433
Ignore.

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>>98058364
>I thought the Auran Empire was Roman/Byzantine-flavored, but the names in this seem to be Sumerian or maybe Akkadian or some shit? Mesopotamian, anyway.

Alexander Macris's Auran Empire is an East-West reversed Mediterranean. You have Gibraltar in the East (Pillars of Dawn), the Black Sea in the Northwest (Comean Sea), and a "Suez Strait" in the Soutwest.

So the Auran Empire itself is a not-Rome, but wider the setting as a whole has its own not-Sumer, not-Gaul, not-Germania, not-Akkadia, and so on.

1/2

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>>98058364
>>98058453
2/2
He's even mapped the setting's languages to those of the Ancient Mediterranean and Near East. Not sure what I'm supposed to do with these, but it's a fun read.

>>98058433
>Only criticising the art.
I accept your admission that the rules are perfect and your concession that ACKS II is the best RPG since 1981.

>>98057464
It's offtopic for the thread, but you want savage worlds.

>>98058413
>Honestly, check out ad&d 2e, it has weapon proficiencies and secondary skills.
Yeah, but the proficiencies in AD&D 2e are really, really bad. The ACKS II proficiencies are unironically much better, better designed, and better integrated with the rest of the system. You get
1. the proficiencies,
2. the rules for how NPC specialists work, and
3. "templates", the equivalent of AD&D 2e kits
in just one single package, self-contained, carefully balanced package.

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>>98058437
lmao
You've been so thoroughly defeated by the superiority of ACKS II that all you can do is cower before it.

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>>98058425
>white hack
>white box
>black hack

brb. making the black box in order to appease my autism.

>>98057378
I would have no issue with wizards being allowed crossbows, honestly they should be allowed them. But we are getting distracted by the 5e approach to combat cantrips.

Cantrips are not really for combat, they are small magics. Sure "spark" might do 1 HP of damage, but it's not for combat, it's for making fires like a flint and steel. It's basic apprentice magic stuff.

>>98057871
Dude, cantrips go back to ad&d. It's not a modern thing. They need not be combat cantrips, but to me a wizard should have magic. It simply does not need be powful magic.

>>98058111
This is the kinda stuff I mean. It does not need to be a combat thing. But a wizard should have magic. They spent years practicing, they gotta have something other than 1st level stuff.

>>98057464
What games have you tried? You might not be looking for a pure clone.

>>98058425
I was looking over than one last night. Lots of things to steal for games in that.

>>98058423
k

>>98057464
That ad&d 2e and savage worlds are both great advice that may scratch that ich you have.

>>98058111
>cantrips
I prefer MANtrips, cantrips for fighters/thieves. Non-magical but still impressive tricks and techniques that expand utility and creativity.

Stuff like:
>swallow an object smaller than an egg and spit it back up on command
>shout loud enough to deal 1 point of damage
>sneeze and fart at the same time without shitting yourself

If you let casters can pick up UA cantrips, mantrips should be available for everyone else.

>>98057955
Arguing about elfgames on the internet won't arrest the decline of the West, sorry anon.

Remove cleric

>>98057464
Check out ACKS or AD&D 2e, they're the OSR games with the most buildfaggotry.

Kill jester.

>>98058550
>sneeze and fart at the same time without shitting yourself
let's not venture into capeshit supes territory anon
keep it grounded in reality pls

>>98058530
I honestly think wizards should get crossbows instead of slings or darts, like a lot systems give them. Darts and slings are both very difficult weapons to learn to use effectively, whereas the the biggest advantage of a crossbow historically was how piss easy it was to teach a non-combatant to just point and shoot. Makes way more sense to have that as the ranged weapon of choice for a guy who's spent most of his life up to the beginning of the campaign in towers studying arcane lore and practicing spells.

>>98058429
>the same retarded screencap again
KEK

>>98058460
>Leftists truly can't get OSR because it's not kosher within Marxianism to kill monsters and take their stuff
Anon. Come on now. Haven't you heard of redistribution of wealth?

>>98058594
Should we tell him, folks?

>>98058453
>>98058455
Ah, that explains it! So these known wonderworkers are to be found in the far west, outside the Empire proper but known to them as powerful sorcerers? Very flavorful, another piece of evidence that ACKS is the greatest game since 1981.

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>>98058455
>the Assyrians map to evil goblinoids
Lmao, accurate

>>98058610
Honestly, an OSR game would work pretty well for a Robin Hood sort of campaign. Just replace dungeons in the gameplay loop with castles and manors full of ill-gotten gains that you're looting. Then you get XP by going back into town and giving it to the peasants.

>>98058464
That's because ACKS proficiencies are (loosely) based on the Gazetteer/Rules Cyclopedia proficiencies, RC being a real old-school game rather than the storyshitting trash of "AD&D" 2e. Just like in real life, you can't become a superior individual with inferior genetics.

>>98058614
ignore, that's the most petty deranged schizo who literally has nothing more in his life
you can report his posts if you like though

>>98058485
You should also make
>white black
and let's not forget
>hack box

>>98058595
I agree and will likely swap that the next game I run. Crossbows were used because of the ease. I have a RL anecdote here about slings

When I was 9 or 10 the Sunday school teacher was telling us of david and Goliath and in her infinite wisdom of trying to keep us interested, she let us make out own slings with rawhide and a bit of leather string. Which we took with great enthusiasm. And then ended up slinging rocks at random tings, often hitting ourself and each other all damned day.

Classic slings are a bitch

>>98058595
>whereas the the biggest advantage of a crossbow historically was how piss easy it was to teach a non-combatant to just point and shoot.
It's nowhere that easy. You're thinking of guns. And those revolutionized the battlefield not because they didn't take skill to learn how to use effectively, but because they allowed soldiers to ignore considerable amount of physicality required, using stored chemical energy rather than their own.

Crossbowmen were some of the highest paid mercenaries because, while technologically superior to a bow, the crossbow still required considerable strength and skill to employ in a practical (ie., not spending 1+ minute between shots) manner. Prepping a crossbow for firing either took considerable strength (typically with belthooks) or a significant amount of time (with a cranequin).

>>98058550
>sneeze and fart at the same time without shitting yourself
This is at least equivalent to a level 2 spell, hardly cantrip territory

>>98058556
That doesn't really contradict anything Anon said though.

>>98058655
>strength
there is nothing in the rules that says that wizards are inherently weaker than a fighter
>skill
no, not really to the same extent as everything else

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>>98058429
Oh wow, you've got a screencap of one post? That's very impressive, anon, how cute!

>>9805865
>>It's nowhere that easy. You're thinking of guns.
NTA but no> Cross iws are a little more physical work with the crank and all, but with less reloading complexity than pre modern guns. I have shot black powder, flintlocks in my case and they have more steps than crossbows.

And with the crank you don't need more strength than the average pesent had. Sure you have highly skilled mercs using them, but you also had levies using them.

>>98058675
>Tfw rolled 18/00 STR but dual classed into Wizard

>>98058631
>a Robin Hood sort of campaign
You mean a displaced nobleman establishing a furtive domain in the woods while fighting a low-intensity war with plenty of party-scale adventuring opportunities agaisnt his liege's entrenched enemies? Sure, ACKS would be great for running a game like that, but what's that got to do with Marxist redistribution?

>>98058655
My understanding was much of the reason they were so highly paid was because actually maintaining a crossbow long term was unusually expensive.

>>98058695
>no> Cross iws
Hey ChatGPT, your OCR has broken down.

>>98058707
>Displaced noble who has thrown in his lot with the peasants as a means of taking his enemies' resources and acquiring legitimacy for rule
Yep, sounds like a lot Marxist leaders

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>>98058698

>>98058530
>cantrips go back to ad&d
Not first decade, so not OSR

>>98058720
You're confusing Bolshevist realpolitik with Marxist doctrine here. Yes, the bolshies were nothing but power-hungry sociopaths who only used Marxist principles for their propaganda value, and yes, in real life this is the invariable nature of communism, but that doesn't mean that Marxist fiction would reflect the dystopian hellscapes their doctrines lead to in real life. You'd expect the main character not to be an earl stealing from his enemies to weaken them economically and distributing the loot among his own men while attempting to restore the true monarch by divine right.

>>98058672
Sorry you can't enjoy a hobby without convincing yourself it will anger your political outgroup

>>98058708
Looking this up, it looks like they require upkeep like a firearm. Maybe with more honesty as the bow and the crank needed oiling and the string needed pretty common replacement

>>98058595
>wizards should get crossbows
WotC tourist detected
Opinion discarded

>>98058742
>Fiction
Sounds like some storygame bullshit anon, we're here to play OSR.

>>98058675
>there is nothing in the rules that says that wizards are inherently weaker than a fighter
Did you not check the rules in the C's and D's?

>>98058695
The average peasant couldn't crank out one shot a minute for five minutes. Even the average soldier couldn't. Just like anyone in reasonable shape could run a mile in 14 minutes but only athletes can do it under 7, there's a pretty big premium cost to getting something done quick.

>>98058708
Initial purchase of all their gear and its maintenance was a part of their high pay, but the value of their skill/labor was considerably higher, particularly because it was so specialized.

>>98058743
I'm not the same guy, I'm just pointing out your argument was a non-sequitur.

>>98058649
I accept your concession

>>98058720
Dude, just ignore the troll. He's going to be at it all day.

>>98058687
>shit resolution
>illegible
Grab a good quality version next time, bro

>>98057464
>Which is inherently at odds with each other.
This is incorrect for the first two parts
>structure, tactility
Which I take for you to mean combat tactical choices. Both the exploration turn and combat round in most OSR, particularity if they're closer to b/x or ad&d are very structured into phases like a wargame and present a wide variety of both strategic choices in party composition, approach to encounters and exploration, marching order, equipment, etc. before you even get to the combat round where any DM should be making use of a combat map of some sort to detail terrain and monster actions, running the OpFor like they're intelligent monsters instead of arena fights and otherwise creating what I find to be a much richer and more engaging combat than what's found in 3E and its derivatives where much of the choice is predetermined by build and balanced around pretending there's a challenge.

>>98058743
Based

>>98058760
>retreating
ANOTHER
BROSR
VICTORY

>>98058765
Lmao you retard, it's just too huge to fit in the image box due to the number of posts, open it in a separate tab you dumb nigger

>>98058753
This is d&d dude, men couldn't fight hours non stop either. Combat in d&d isn't realistic, so why hold this one thing (firing rate) higher than everything else?

>>98058790
>open it in a separate tab
I have. It's low resolution and illegible for me

>>98058856
I'm not saying wizards shouldn't have crossbows, I'm just saying crossbows ain't easy.

>>98058876
Note are slings and darts. I think a min str requirement would be fine honestly.

On cantrips, I am looking over the 1e cantrips and these are rather good. Kinda what I am looking for in many ways. I'll have to change the casting time, but I can totally see where OSE got it's cantrips from. They are not the same but it's clear inspiration

>>98056450
Everyone has engaged you as if you discussed 5e / PathfinderX cantrips- endless use spells that are minor in effect but substantial as unlimited. I actually think that 5e style cantrips are fine, but you'd need to fix the damage ones. 5e is built with some ideas of "units" of damage, where a unit is around a d6 or so- basically 4 damage. Cantrips are supposed to deal around one unit of damage and weapon attacks are supposed to deal around two. Basically the cantrip guy is maybe at 60% of a character using a realistic weapon, but tends to get the range of the attack and possibly a secondary effect for free. To make those work with an OSR game, you'd want to make them much more like a thrown dagger.

Part of OSR is that you don't have unlimited amounts of magic, that you are supposed to be throwing a dagger or just doing some full defense thing where you hide on rounds where low level you is not casting a spell. In this sense, cantrips, while mechanically fine, disrupt the story and sense of the game. They represent minor super powers in a game where you aren't supposed to have those.

But... why didn't anyone assume you were talking about cantrips as they existed in Dragon Magazine and I think some other places? These cantrips allowed you to dump a 1st level spell slot for a small handfull of them, each of limited use. They could add flavor (and were really valuable for that at high level, when you didn't have a great use for 1st level spell slots), but they weren't there to stand in for throwing a dagger or to keep you feeling like a Magical Girl in combat.

Those cantrips I actually never allowed back in the day, because they seemed fiddly and I figured I'd have it rules lawyered against me. If I were running AD&D today, I'd probably allow them because they are pretty cool.

>>98058996
>But... why didn't anyone assume you were talking about cantrips as they existed in Dragon Magazine and I think some other places?
Eh, those are also shit.

>>98058996
>But... why didn't anyone assume you were talking about cantrips as they existed in Dragon Magazine and I think some other places?
A few people mentioned the ones in Unearthed Arcana.

>>98058996
>Part of OSR is that you don't have unlimited amounts of magic

Magic items say what?

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>>98056850
This is the type of quality analysis you can't find in /r/osr. This is what keeps me coming back to the 4 chins.

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>>98059035
I'm sure I'll need this again sometime too.

>>98058996
Yeah, I never approved it was the 5e combat cantrips angle. I have tried to make that clear that at best you would have something you might use for 1 HP, but it's not really a combat spell. It would be something that was moment to make a small flame you hurled out of desperation or something

Combat cantrips are not the point. Having magic because you are a gods damned wizard is the point. As pointed out in this thread 1e introduced cantrips. They may not be popular but they are in the OSR sphere.

I like what I am seeing of the UA cantrips, no clue about dragon magazine stuff. Necromantic gnome puts out a magazine called carcass crawler, issue 5 has cantrips. Which I use as a player in my current OSE game. BFRPG introduced them in a supplement and I ran into them from beyond the wall about a decade ago.

They may not be super common in OSR games, but they are around. To me, I think they fit in fine with the feel of OSR

>>98058996
I'd remove damage cantrips entirely. Cantrips as puzzle solving and creative interesting things for magic users to use encourages osr playstyle.
Free damage becomes overpowered stone rock very quickly and shifts magic users back to blaster mage stuff.

>>98059003
>>98059005
What issue of Dragon are these in?

>>98059028
Magic items say
>not at low level without wand charges

>>98057255
In swords and wizardry it looks like magic missile offers either a +1 to hit for 1d6+1 damage or an automatic 1d4+1. And then starting at 5th level it gets two extra dice.
So if this was your template for cantrip damage, you'd want a to-hit roll that deals 1d4 damage, much like a thrown dagger, and you'd gain space to increase its power at level 5.

>>98057464
>>PF1e is bloated

AD&D 1e is arguably bloated if you accept everything ever written for it (it definitely is if you're importing all of dragon magazine). AD&D 2e is definitely bloated too.

Is OD&D? B/X? Well, if you include dragon magazine stuff, I think so.

If you want to run PF1 and that's your only issue, just carve out what parts you consider valid. Go with core only, or whitelist certain books you don't feel make a bloated system. PF1 has some rule where every level you can claim either an extra hit point or an extra skill point- either stick to that rule or throw it out. Definitely don't include stuff like "+1/4 to some vital resource if you are a half-elf", as these options take up like dozens of pages and are very complex to note and remember past about level five.

Anyway, it's not an OSR game regardless, but if its bloated just define it sharply and it won't be- and you'll need to do this for any game that has gotten really successful as its own brand.

>>98059080
As ai sad, I was looking at the d4. To me if a level 1 spell does a d4, a cantrips should never do a d4. I can see your argument for it, but I don't wanna go the route of cantrips improving with level. They are a cantrips, to be they are low power magic and not spells that gain power with level

>>98059075
There's a good amount of low level unlimited magic sources.

Like the Amulet of Caterpillar Control, which allows the wearer to control the actions of 4 to 24 garden caterpillars, worth 25gp.

>>98059495
>Why are there flower gardens surrounding the Hold?
>Brightens the place up.

>>98059495

>>Like the Amulet of Caterpillar Control, which allows the wearer to control the actions of 4 to 24 garden caterpillars, worth 25gp.

One of my groups is an all female group, the shenanigans that group could do with such a thing is worrisome. They already get very inventive as is. Sadly that group isn't really an OSR group but still.

>>98059265
Learn to spell, holy shit

>>98058413
>>98058548
>>98058565
>>98059093
I probably should've said so, but yeah I've been looking at AD&D 2e and that's generally what I've been leaning towards trying next. I might wind up making some bastardized mix that lands somewhere between 2e, 3e, and 5e

>>98059692
You might wanna check out for gold and Glory. It's a modern retroclone that is a little more readable. 2e is a pretty nice base though.

>>98059692
>I've been looking at AD&D 2e
You might want to not do that, it's not an OSR game so it won't get you good results at all for OSR play. It's also pretty shit just in general, a broken, incoherent mess.

>>98059495
Is there a list of magic items by price?

>>98059755
>it's not an OSR game
That's not necessarily an issue, perhaps the Anon is not interested in OSR play, and that's fine.

The bigger issue with AD&D 2e is that it's the worst of all D&D-branded editions, and the proof is that almost nobody plays it, it's popular among people who only like to read the rulebooks and looking at the pictures.

If Anon is interested in non-OSR play, he'll be much better off playing 3e, 5e, or PathFinder.

>>98059805
That's insightful, and very true. 5e especially I think is a strong contender for the non-OSR storybased play that 2e also promotes – not as crunchy as 3e and Pathfinder and far less broken than either 3e or 2e.

>>98059853
5e is very well designed. I have issues with the goals of the design, but the execution is pretty good.

3e/pf have their strengths as well, for someone who wants more crunch. All 3e needs is for the DM to put his foot down against excessive buildfagging.

AD&D 2e, on the other hand... what's the point? It's neither fish nor fowl. They botched most of what was good about AD&D 1e, and they replaced with... well, whatever it was they replaced with. The team behind it wasn't exactly talented. They were riding Gygax's coattails, but they didn't even really like his approach to gaming.

>>98059495
>Amulet of Caterpillar Control
>huh?
>Encyclopedia Magica, the four volume set
>Osarchive is down for maintenance
Well fuck.

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>>98059933
I'd mark 1e as worse, 2e smooths out most of 1e's sticking points, and takes on a design philosophy much closer to the rest of the D&D line: Each DM is the captain of his table, no weird effort to try and establish uniformity of play.

I think something like 90%+ of the AD&D players switched from 1e to 2e without much friction, which is actually something Gygax complained about on a few Dragonsfoot posts because he said they did it because people would always just be jumping to whatever was the newest edition. I think it was part that, but mostly because 2e was not just close enough but did improve the general QoL for DMs.

> They were riding Gygax's coattails, but they didn't even really like his approach to gaming.
I don't think Gygax's coattails had much value at that point. Gygax came out with his own games, and nobody bought them. At that point, nobody really liked his approach to gaming.

Even in the OSR, there was a strong start with 1e because Dragonsfoot started out as a 1e-focused forum and it was one of the major gathering spots for OSR discussion, but now B/X is much more popular because 1e is this weird dated game and that really makes it an odd duck that sticks out from the rest of the line.

>>98060004
>I'd mark 1e as worse, 2e smooths out most of 1e's sticking points
This seems to imply that you've never read either edition. It's a common take for people to repeat to seem initiated, but it isn't a very good one. 2e, above all, gutted the DMG and derailed the gameplay procedures and play style of 1e, which is why it's alien to the OSR.

>no weird effort to try and establish uniformity of play.
This is a bizarre myth being pushed by one autist on /tg/, it bears no relation to reality. The 1e DMG is full of admonishments to referees to make the game their own.

>Dragonsfoot started out as a 1e-focused forum
Dragonsfoot is still a 1e-focused forum and it's more popular than B/X there. B/X was ascendant in the circa-2012-2015 blogosphere because it's simpler, and it went from there. But many of the actual long term OSR players who championed it back then have left it behind for 1e, in fact; the B/X Blackraxor guy is one example. His blog is named for B/X, he's best known for doing a take of hs own on the promised Companion rules for B/X, but he doesn't actually play B/X anymore, just 1e.

>>98060004
>2e smooths out most of 1e's sticking points, and takes on a design philosophy much closer to the rest of the D&D line
On the contrary, it botches AD&D's strong points, but isn't able to deploy what's necessary for the style of play that it wants to enable. Just look at all the splatbooks for character options and kits, that are all invariably utter dogshit.

If you don't like OSR play then sure, AD&D 2e might be better than AD&D for you. But at that point you have literally zero reasons to stick to AD&D 2e when there's very well designed editions that deliver what AD&D 2e never could, because it's an extremely mediocre game at best.

If you do like OSR play, however, AD&D 2e is utterly unsuitable.

So either way you should be playing something else than AD&D 2e: OD&D, B/X, or AD&D if you're into the OSR style; or 3e, 5e, or pf if you're into the non-OSR style.

>I don't think Gygax's coattails had much value at that point.
No shit, what Gygax produced after 1983ish was generally bad, pretty much everybody agrees on that. I was talking about taking advantage of what Gygax had produced during until 1983ish.

Reposting >>98060171 because too many typos.

>>98060072
>This seems to imply that you've never read either edition.
That's the case with most AD&D 2e fans: 99% of them don't understand OSR play or AD&D 1e.

Now, granted, it's entirely possible that 99% of that 99% still wouldn't like AD&D even if they did understand it, so they're probably not missing out.

But that's what makes communication virtually impossible: 2e fans can't understand the OSR, they can't understand why they don't like it, and they can't understand why OSR fans do. As a result, 2e fans come up with all kinds of weird theories about why OSR fans have such strong feelings against 2e.

>>98060072
>But many of the actual long term OSR players who championed it back then have left it behind for 1e, in fact; the B/X Blackraxor guy is one example. His blog is named for B/X, he's best known for doing a take of hs own on the promised Companion rules for B/X, but he doesn't actually play B/X anymore, just 1e.
That's actually a very natural trajectory: If you play regularly, eventually B/X shows its limits.

>>98060072
I'm just going to treat you as a weird guy.

I've met plenty of weird 1e die-hards like you before, and all I can say is that you've got opinions you really need to cling to hard in order to have.

>Dragonsfoot is still a 1e-focused forum
Aye, but it used to be almost exclusively 1e. That changed and changed pretty significantly, with both OD&D(and friends) and 2e having about a 1/3 of the posts that 1e does.

>>98060195
Why you trying to pretend you belong in this thread?
You've got insane ideas about what OSR is, all while trying to tell everyone you're the expert and everyone who disagrees with you has never played and doesn't understand.

If you're just going to be a weird grognard, there's another thread for people like you.

>>98060004
>I think something like 90%+ of the AD&D players switched from 1e to 2e

>>98060237
>2e having about a 1/3 of the posts that 1e does
You can't really have it both ways.

>>98060252
>Why you trying to pretend you belong in this thread?
This is an OSR thread, it says so right at the top. If somebody doesn't belong, it's definitely not me.

>You've got insane ideas about what OSR is, all while trying to tell everyone you're the expert and everyone who disagrees with you has never played and doesn't understand.
Not an argument.

>>98060195
>2e fans come up with all kinds of weird theories about why OSR fans have such strong feelings against 2e.

>>98060252
>You've got insane ideas about what OSR is
>a weird grognard
Thanks for proving my point.

>>98060253
The majority of players went from 1e to 2e and then to 3e (and then to 4e, and then to 5e). The only weird hiccup is that from 3e to 4e, a bunch ended up going back to 3e/PF so there was a time where it was a near 50/50 split. Otherwise, it was a 80-90% adoption rate, in part thanks to the older edition just losing support from TSR/WotC.

Dragonsfoot was just a special interest forum dedicated to 1e. Other OSR forums had all the other editions from the start, but Dragonsfoot started out with 1e and then added in the others later.

>>98060237
>>98060252
The troll got tired of being ignored so now he's just right back to sowing his BrOSR ideology in a more sinister fashion.
Ignore him.

>>98060278
I had a feeling.

He really can't hide his weird... aggression. Peevishness?

>>98060278
>>98060286
Still no arguments. I accept your concessions.

>>98059061
>They may not be super common in OSR games, but they are around. To me, I think they fit in fine with the feel of OSR
I think that they're player friendly. Ask any player, and most would agree that adding certain cantrips would make the game more fun, rather than less.
Problem comes when there's people who just think OSR means holding onto all the stuff that players hate and justifying it by appeals to tradition.

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>>98060278
>BrOSR ideology

>>98060195
>2e fans can't understand the OSR, they can't understand why they don't like it, and they can't understand why OSR fans do. As a result, 2e fans come up with all kinds of weird theories about why OSR fans have such strong feelings against 2e.


>>98060315
>there's people who just think OSR means holding onto all the stuff that players hate and justifying it by appeals to tradition
Case in point. Literally nobody has made any "appeal to tradition" in favour of OSR.

Wow, it WAS just the troll.

>>98060332
Fucking duh.

>>98060004
>I don't think Gygax's coattails had much value at that point. Gygax came out with his own games, and nobody bought them.
Gygax's name always had value.

Cyborg Commander and Dangerous Journeys were just really bad games. I think Mentzer can be blamed for CC, and TSR interfered heavily with DJ, but either way, bad games.

If Gygax's name wasn't on them, they would have sold even worse than they did.

>>98060273
So your theory is:

1. Over 90% of players switched from AD&D to AD&D 2e. (Source: your ass, but let's assume that it's true for the sake of discussion.)


2. Then, when 3e came out, practically all of them switched to 3e; So many that now there's many more AD&D fans than AD&D 2e fans, despite AD&D being 20 years older than AD&D 2e, and despite your (highly debatable) claim that 90% of AD&D fans switched to AD&D 2e.

So your theory confirms was said here >>98060117, that people who like the OSR stick with AD&D, and people who don't like OSR have zero reasons to play AD&D 2e, and they just switch to 3e or 5e.

>>98060206
>That's actually a very natural trajectory: If you play regularly, eventually B/X shows its limits.
Exactly. I'm not saying this to criticize B/X or anything, it's just the obvious direction of expansion (as indeed it was intended to be).

>>98060237
>I've met plenty of weird 1e die-hards like you before
You're the weird diehard, clinging to a broken edition with few fans and trying to contrive good reasons to do so. 1e is beloved in the old-school revival for good reason; 2e is reviled in the old-school revival for good reason.

>Aye, but it used to be almost exclusively 1e. That changed and changed pretty significantly, with both OD&D(and friends) and 2e having about a 1/3 of the posts that 1e does.
This is a completely irrelevant remark. Even if we accept it as absolutely true, it doesn't change one bit that Dragonsfoot is a 1e-focused forum, just as it always was.

>>98060252
>Why you trying to pretend you belong in this thread?
What's this about pretending? 2e is explicitly on topic here, it's been stated repeatedly. Do you think that means an echo chamber hagiographizing 2e? That's not what discussion means to normal people. Criticism is part of any healthy discussion, and there is indeed a great deal of well-founded criticism to level against 2e.

>>98060278
You know that the BrOSR doesn't meaningfully exist and doesn't have an ideology, right? It's like four guys on Youtube talking about a campaign style they like to run. It's like saying West Marches is gangstalking you, it doesn't make sense.

>>98060391
Gygax in the late-80's and 90's had lost a lot of his credibility and marketability. Getting dropped from TSR was a big blow, but he had also stopped working on the game long before that and this actually meant there was a backlog of high concept books that were not being written because Gary had reserved them for himself because they would be important to the core of the game, with a manual of the planes being one that he actually had started but didn't complete before he lost control of the company.
Once Gygax left the picture, that removed a big creative bottleneck, so while Gygax went off to try and rebuild his reputation with his new games, TSR saw an explosion of new material that would make it essentially impossible for Gary to compete (even if his games weren't critically panned), and no one was missing Gary being at TSR.
Gygax's name might have been recognizable, but it wasn't worth much, and had never really been a sign of quality to begin with. Aside from D&D, his other games had only ever been modest successes or total failures.

>>98060428
>it doesn't change one bit that Dragonsfoot is a 1e-focused forum, just as it always was
Also worth noting that there's multiple forums dedicated mostly or exclusively to OD&D and/or AD&D 1e (Dragonsfoot, K&KA, odd74), but literally ZERO dedicated to AD&D 2e. It only gets some discussion because it's lumped together with AD&D 1e on some forums, or because Dragonsfoot created a separate subforum for AD&D 2e as containment.

And when you look at published modules on the OSR scene, there's

* Tons for AD&D or nominally for its retroclones (Khosura, Castle Xyntillan, Barrowmaze, Archaia, Highfell, Dwarrowdeep, Arden Vul, Carcosa, Gunderholfen, Rappan Athuk, ...),

* Tons others for B/X or nominally for its retroclones (Stonehell, Gardens of Ynn, Stygian Library, Dwimmermount, all the Necrotic Gnome ones, Illmire, ...)

But there's practically NOTING published for AD&D 2e. It's really a dead edition when it comes to actual gameplay and discussion.

>>98060506
>TSR saw an explosion of new material
All of it unplayable and unplaytested dogshit that drove TSR to failure.

>>98059759
I'm not sure. I just found that on
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_2nd_Edition_Wiki

>>98060531
Failed so hard it took 17 years. Or 16 in "general" years?

>>98060538
Sometimes I forget how big 2e actually was. I found a list online of all the official books (not adventures), and it was like 100 books or something. No wonder it has its own wiki.

Nothing compared to the Forgotten Realms wiki though. That thing is fucking massive, and it might never stop growing.

>>98060591
>No wonder it has its own wiki.
But zero dedicated forums and zero modules for it since the internet started. The only people interested in AD&D 2e are depressed Millennials with nostalgia, who like to reread the old books and reminisce.

>the /osrg/ trolls came here because they're so lonely because they poisoned there own thread with their propaganda
LoL, dumb retards.

>>98060506
EGG's coke problem was also well-known back then. It had gotten so bad the FBI investigated him for being a dealer.

>>98060587
>It took 17 years, so it didn't fail.
Given the fucking gold egg TSR was sitting on, it's amazing that it managed to fail at all. The time it took is a measure of how good the intellectual property they inherited was, not of any supposed quality of the stuff it was selling.

>>98060591
Greenwood actually posts on that wiki and helps edit it.

Never loved his stuff, but I'm glad the old pervert is still around,

>>98060591
>the Forgotten Realms wiki
Oh man, I remember spending way too much time on that thing back in college.

I ran a Faerun campaign for my friends, and I really wanted to be lore accurate back then with the history/geography/etc.

Ah... how naive I was...

>>98060315
This is true to a point. Some really don't get why so many moved away from 1e or focus on the wrong things and think that makes something OSR.

Cantrips can work fine with OSR games as it's been done before and it's not an issue. You just need to adjust them to the game and system you are using

>>98060506
An absolutely bizarre fable.

>Gygax's name might have been recognizable, but it wasn't worth much, and had never really been a sign of quality to begin with.
LMAO

>>98060692
Were you on the wiki when 4e came out? It has never fully recovered from that war

>>98060519
>But there's practically NOTHING published for AD&D 2e. It's really a dead edition when it comes to actual gameplay and discussion.
Well, that's understandable since it's not actually an OSR game.

But yes, you're absolutely right of course, the proliferation of great content for AD&D and B/X (much of which, by my lights, is equal or superior to much classic material) is proof of the longevity and appeal of those editions, and the absence of any content for 2e (as well as the anemic state of its one sad clone) demonstrates its obsolescence and persistently unattractive gameplay.

>>98060587
It took eight years from the launch of 2e for TSR to fail. The massive bloat of products was a strictly 2e phenomenon; there was no set of "Complete X" brown splatbooks, no continuous pump of settings, in 1e. 2e was simply a litany of mistakes that drove TSR into the ground, and the first and perhaps gravest of those mistakes was publishing the edition itself.

>>98060692
I've done a bunch of FR campaigns, and while I've read tons of the books and the novels, I had a really bad habit of just misremembering something, everyone just latching onto the idea almost immediately, and it being too late for me to retcon it once I realized I had messed up.

I remember completely fucking up Sharess's lore. I needed an evil god for some rumor, and I just had Sharess be an even more evil, even more secretive Shar. I kinda wanna blame pokemon on this.

None of the players knew anything about Sharess so they just took me at my word, and being the more evil version of one of the most powerful and evil Goddesses essentially pushed Sharess into the source of all evil for the campaign. The players treated anything to do with Sharess as their #1 priority, and they were really motivated to destroy her super-super-secret cult.

I just had to keep inventing more Sharess lore, like how she was the one that created Shar by splitting her from Selune and molding her in her own image to act as her proxy. With so much other Faerun lore tied up in the battle between Shar/Selune, I was basically stuck creating a Mega-Satan Supreme Evil that nearly rivaled Ao.

After the campaign ended, my players were incredibly confused when they discovered Sharess was actually a CG minor demigoddess of dancing and feasthalls,

>>98060806
I think it's actually recovered quite a bit thanks to 5e placing it near its center and also Baldur's Gate 3 acting as a gateway.

4e was a really dark time for Faerun. I'm still mad about what they did to Thay.

>>98060644
As long as you remember 2e is OSR and ACKS is somewhere between mediocre and bad, it's pretty easy to spot them and ignore them.

>>98060820
>demonstrates its obsolescence and persistently unattractive gameplay
So why do you think these 2e fans are so fixated on this objectively bad game, and so insistent that it MUST be talked about? What gives? It makes no sense. The game has basically been forgotten by everyone except for this couple of newfags that have shown up all of a sudden on /tg/. They obviously don't even play it. It makes no sense.

>>98060850
You should have had an even more evil goddess behind her named Sharizard.

>>98060873
>2e is OSR
2e is dead, and has been for almost 30 years. Nobody plays it. Nobody publishes for it. A game with zero published stuff for it is definitionally not part of a revival movement, because it's never been revived. It's a rotting corpse.

>>98060873
>ACKS is somewhere between mediocre and bad
ACKS is the best RPG since 1981. Hands down. Cope and seethe.

>>98060880
We know that one of them has been trying to force 2e into /osrg/ for years, and he's legitimately mentally ill; we've seen ample proof of that. Beyond that, I can genuinely only speculate. The others seem to me to be nostalgics: people who fixate on the settings and think of those as the game. You saw how furious one of them became yesterday when told that the game is its rules more than its setting supplements; this anon just now waxing nostalgic about the Forgotten Realms is another excellent example. Not one word about a rule, or system, or mode of gameplay. Just an anecdote about how his lore diverged from the usual lore.

Even the Spelljammer anons, who very respectably made their own thread for it, clearly care more about Spelljammer than anything to do with any edition of D&D as such; their thread had barely any mention of any rules, mechanics, or systems.

This is apparently a common type of subcreation activity among people who don't have the opportunity or perhaps even desire to actually play; I think it's directly comparable to the NuSR types who only buy books to read, fantasize about and then shelve.

>>98060873
Why are you so angry? This persistent outrage about ACKS, a game you haven't even played and evidently aren't in the target audience for, seems not to make any sense, especially not here in its own dedicated general.

>>98060906
This is very likely. Do you run they are aware, though? Or are they in denial? If they were aware of their condition they would just own it and admit, wouldn't they? That's what makes me think that they're in denial.

>>98060864
4 left stupid scares. I never run FR post the 3e era

>>98060820
>the anemic state of its one sad clone
I just checked that. For Gold and Glory, the only AD&D 2e clone, is a Gold best seller; meanwhile, the first edition of ACKS is an Adamantine best seller. Adamantine is three steps above Gold on the DTRPG sales badge scale:
Gold < Platinum < Mithral < Adamantine

And ACKS has to compete with all other B/X-based games, notably Labyrinth Lord and Old School Essentials.

This is the definitive proof that 2e is not part of the OSR, because nobody publishes anything for it.

>B-but the original 2e PHB is an Adamantine seller as well.
Case in point: it sells because of the nostalgia factor, but it's worship of the corpse of a game. There's virtually zero "revival" activity for AD&D 2e.

No revival, no Old School Revival.

It's that simple.

>>98060933
>Do you *THINK* they are aware?

>>98060933
I don't think it's really a question of "awareness" versus "denial"; I think it's simply a case of the game looking different if you come at it from a non-playing perspective. I.e. if you primarily interact with D&D through Forgotten Realms novels, I sure the FR roleplaying game supplements look similar to FR novels, and the game and its rules are a sort of trivial appendage. Of course then it will seem like differences between editions, which someone who plays knows from experience are crucial and make all the difference, are even more trivial; tiny changes to something you don't care about in the first place. And what are these people doing trying to gatekeep your oldschool fantasy from their movement or subculture or whatever it is? They even say it's about old D&D and this is D&D, and old!

All of that makes a kind of sense if you approach it from the perspective of someone who has no interest, or only a theoretical interest, in playing a game.

>>98060873
You mean ACKS is shit and its discord is trying to poison the last place they haven't been banned from.
What a bunch of retarded windbags.

>>98060976
>For Gold and Glory, the only AD&D 2e clone, is a Gold best seller; meanwhile, the first edition of ACKS is an Adamantine best seller. Adamantine is three steps above Gold on the DTRPG sales badge scale:
>Gold < Platinum < Mithral < Adamantine
Hmmm. According to this:
>https://help.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en-us/articles/33369972615319-Bestseller-Metals-and-How-to-Earn-Badges
Adamantium means (at minimum) literally ten times as many copies sold as Gold tier. There doesn't seem to be a time component either, so these are based on all-time sales.

Considering how long FG&G has existed, this is a truly depressing performance.

Incidentally, this:
>https://www.graycastlepress.com/drivethrurpg-metal-tiers/
claims that there are *over 20x* as many gold sellers as there are adamantium. ACKS belings to a very exclusive elite category!

What are folks thoughts on removing race class restrictions and level limit?Back in the day that seemed to be one of the most common house rules and I have never ran a game using them personally

>>98060997
it's nice that they realized they can no longer flood as blatantly as they did before and how they now have to try something new, with today being trying to troll by pushing their propaganda with these embarrassing try-hard posts.

Overall, minus their efforts to mislead people with their bizarre hatred for 2e and their ever-present promotion of ACKS, there's been lot of good discussion in this thread, probably due to the amount of extra effort that the trolls have to put into these try-hard posts (just to get ignored all the harder for it), and people taking the OP's "Please do not engage with trolls" to heart. It's incredibly heartening to see how easily everyone's been stepping between the trolls' posts, with just the slightest missteps here and there.

I'm genuinely kind of surprised how just how easy it is to see through them by remembering that 2e is OSR and ACKS is mediocre-bad. It's almost funny how hard they've been trying to bait an argument by professing they believe the opposite.

>>98061017
I've rarely run/played in a game where level limits mattered. As for race/class restrictions, that always felt like something tied intrinsically to lore, which means it makes sense to hold onto them for some settings, not ignore them for others.

>>98061060
>there's been lot of good discussion in this thread
kek

>>98061017
I don't like dwarf mages as a concept, but not enough to enforce race level caps if someone really wants to give one a go.

If someone can sell me on a dwarf mage without just saying "he uses runes", they deserve the chance to play one.

I don't play with people who play halflings.

>>98061069
I can't personally think of any reason they would make sense in setting, but we all tend to set things up as our brains need them.

>>98061120
Cultural taboos?

>>98061105
I don't mind dwarf mages, what that looks like really depends on the setting. I can see it more down to fluff and spell selection than anything. I could see earth based stuff being a core part of dwarven magic traditions.

8 never got the halfing love. And no setting except dark suns and maybe Eberron does anything with em. They are just "there"

>>98061132
I don't see who that would be level limits, but it could make set classes rare. Honestly I would more approach it as this culture handles this class this way. Not that it doesn't have them, more like it has its own cultural take on it.

>>98061105
>I don't like dwarf mages as a concept
You should check out the ACKS Dwarf race class, the Runecaster. It's a brilliant take.

>>98061135
I don't think people give Tolkien enough credit for making both the main characters of his most popular books some dumpy potato people with furry feet.

Not a good reason to include them as a D&D race though.

>>98061207
Honestly making the man character just a guy, nothing special really, was a stroke of brilliance. I honestly think that is one reason it still resonates so strongly

>>98061017
Never really got why they were a rule from the start.
Always just felt like "that's just the way it is."

>>98060237
>>98060252
>weird guy
>insane ideas
>weird grognard
Go the fuck back, redditor

>>98061060
Taje solace that their faggotry is confined to /tg/, nobody outside of this space would take them seriously.

>>98061280
Yeah we removed them from the start when I started playing 2e. I came into d&d from other games, so never had the "it just is" mind set. I looked at it went "that's stupid" and promptly ignored it.

Off hand we ignored class limits, class restrictions and everyone could multiclass. Never had an issue

I'm joining a B/X Greyhawk game tomorrow with 3 other players.
How important is it to have a full party?
I think there's a chance no one wants to play a caster.
I don't want to either, but I'll play a magic-user if I have to.

>>98061494
What level you talking here? Low level a caster isn't a huge deal

>>98061531
Phew. We're starting with 0xp, and it really looks like casters just suck.

>>98060519
>but literally ZERO dedicated to AD&D 2e
Since you don't play 2e, I'll let you in on a secret- most 2e players consider AD&D to be one game. So when they read stuff about 1e, it's often relevant to their interests. But everyone knows the reverse isn't true.

>>98061635
Caster suck at low level sure. Later on they get a lot of bang

>>98061656
Not invoked in this argument, but yes. It's the same basic system. 2e players just use whatever, it's not hard and 1e doesn't even require a conversion

>>98060846
You know what they say, the brightest flames burn out the quickest. It was kind of glorious imo. Absolutely no regard for money. Just printing as much product as possible, spamming splat books. The bottom line be damned

>>98059692
One other option if you want to go down the “2e, 3e, 5e” road. Google ad&d 3e by scruffy grognard, it’s literally his pet project to do just that. I think he recently changed its name to Heroes & Hexes

>>98061867
NTA, but 2e was a boon for TSR, but they were crap at management. They had two competing games Ad&D 2e and BX) three if you count the RC as its own thing. They had like 11 competing product lines and every print of a set size for the same print run size with no attention paid to how many where selling then they got involved in costly aide projects and novels and management killed them as it sounded like a fucking free for all.

2e sold great, it outsold 1e. But then they split the market to much. It's who Wotc and Paizo did not churn our endless setting books. It is also why they targeted players, not GMs as the main target of products.

No product can survive poor management

>>98061002
>>98060976
So then, Sales is what makes a game OSR?

Feats / Builds create their own problem. They take away options and abilities from the players, then give them back under the guise of building their character. If a player wants to dual wield weapons, then they HAVE to take the dual wield weapons feat. How is that interesting? A feat should add depth to a character instead of being a tax.
An ideal feat should therefore
>NOT be an ability that was taken from the player then sold back to them
>NOT be a generic bonus to attacks, damage, etc.
>NOT be a "must pick" option
>SHOULD feel meaningful
>SHOULD open up different avenues of play to the players that would normally be unavailable to them
Feats should basically be very simplified kits from 2e. Some feats I'd suggest in this vein
>Allow MU to learn INT bonus CLR spells (and vice versa for CLR/WIS)
>Allow CLR to turn an additional enemy type of their choice
>Allow FM / Thf to track like a ranger (unless you already have rangers in your game)

>>98061494
Magic Users are more than just their spells. Play smart, be the mapper, take notes on dungeon monsters like how much dmg kills then,anything ecology wise that could be useful, rooms, features, etc.

>>98061002
>ACKS belings to a very exclusive elite category!
It was obvious to begin with that ACKS is a game with an active fan base who play and buy games. It's a niche product, not for everyone, but it's healthy and alive. We already knew that.

What I'm a bit surprised at is how poorly For Gold and Glory performs. There's many, many B/X and AD&D retroclones that are Adamantine best sellers. But there's only ONE 2e retroclone, and it's only a Gold best seller.

It's really a measure of how nobody plays AD&D 2e and it's a dead edition.

>>98060980
>if you primarily interact with D&D through Forgotten Realms novels
That's the thing I can't wrap my head around, probably: I've never read a D&D novel. The idea itself strikes me as idiotic, why would you read a novel by a Z-list author trying to emulate a game when I can read real books or play real games? It just doesn't make any sense.

>>98061656
>most 2e players consider AD&D to be one game
LMAO most desperate cope ever

>>98061926
>Sales is what makes a game OSR?
No, having actual retroclones and modules that people use is what makes a game revived (as in Old School Revival) as opposed to a rotting corpse.

>>98062096
It doesn’t help that it looks like shit. It’s one thing to be very minimal in art. It’s a whole other thing to fill your pages with royalty free renaissance paintings you got off google images. I like the way it lays out its rules. Makes it so you’re not flipping through 3 different books. But it just puts out the wrong vibes for a DnD game. Here I am wanting to play a game of high adventure and Gold and Glory is shoving the Birth of Venus down my throat

>>98060393
>So your theory confirms was said here >>98060117, that people who like the OSR stick with AD&D, and people who don't like OSR have zero reasons to play AD&D 2e, and they just switch to 3e or 5e.
No reply.
Means you know I'm right, but you're not man enough to admit it.

>>98062118
>It doesn’t help that it looks like shit.
I couldn't disagree more, the art of the AD&D 2e MM is the one that's really abysmal, but 2e fans seem to like it for god knows what odd reason. At least For Gold and Glory has good art.

The reason it doesn't sell is that it's a retroclone for an edition that has no reason to exist anymore.

>wrong vibes
That's one of the most nogames crap that people bring up all the time. The rulebook's "vibes" are completely irrelevant to the quality of a game that you play. If you're put off by that, you're just not interested in playing. Admit it to yourself and move on with your life, get a better hobby.