Remember, folks. The more precise, the more usable in a game. Magic is a subsystem defined by rules. Objective and consistent.
Based, fuck the no-games.
>>98339525
>>98339525i can make one that isnt
>>98339525idgi >>98319131are you made about magic or something?
>>98339525Counterpoint: rigid rules-based magic systems fucking suck and Brandon Sanderson should be beat with hammers for the irreperable damage hes done to the fantasy genre.
>>98339608Do it here and now then
>>98339933its 2am so i wont, but ill tell you how to do it. create a magic system that functions as a chaotic system where the outcome of a given set of uncontrollable inputs is solveable, but unpredictable. use the in-game environment and at least one dice as inputs so as to prevent someone from "brute-forcing" an effective spell list. this system is extremely unprecise, but entirely useable in game. it is defined by rules, but despite the rules being known it is entirely incomprehensible by them. finally, it is subjective to chance, the environment, and is entirely inconsistent, despite meeting all your criteria for it's design
>>98339922No.
>>98340009so you can't do it then.
>>98340037>why arent you doing cryptography for free on 4chan at 2amokay sure, if it makes you happy then i cant do it. it makes no difference to me, i'd never share any work of value on /tg/ regardless
>>98340074>>98340009>ozo can't keep up with how much shit their mouth runs Oh lmao you're the one who keeps posting >my homebrew is so much better than anything but can never post it because you're soooooo much better Protip kid, if it made no difference to you, you wouldn't bother to lie this much to strangers on the internet about your amazing game no one can see.
Hey let’s talk magic systems. I personally am fond of the verb-noun system ars magica helped pioneer.
Damn. OP is a seething bitch. Lmao.
>>98339856Well he keeps seething about some “wonderfag” in other threads
>>98339525Reverse shitposting is still shitposting
>>98341202Look at the catalog. Most of the threads are for seethe.
>>98341157Owing to enjoying the 3.X kitchen sink and being decidedly on the complexity addiction side of that, I've given a little bit of thought to trying at a "default theurge" system where it has a bunch of different subsystems reflecting different common "single-source" explanations for magic only for the actual applications and access mechanics thereof to almost all use several of them because those in-universe have little to no knowledge of the "fundamental forces of magic" and aren't subject to rails forcing them into just one, so the traditions emerge from complementary low-hanging fruit rather than specialization in one "field".>>98341202>>98341227It comes across as a decent number of posters, myself included as at least one non-OP case. Got seared in my own head from like two months where loads of threads vaguely about magic degenerated into flinging bullshit over rejecting eachother's premises, with wonderfag seeming to genuinely not understand the issues his framing results in for considering anything outside one's current understanding of reality.
>>98339525I actually agreeAmbiguity in rules are a pain in the ass. Just make casting Fireball straightforward.Whatever 'mystery' and 'wonder' can just be fluffed as flavor text. It's like how no-one playing Mage *ever* agrees on how magic works.
>>98339525Based
>>98339525>Spell Target: 1 person you can see>"Hey GM can I use this spell to attack the wall and possibly break it down?"
>>98341653This. The board is plagued with lots of off-topic schizo posters. “Wonderfag” is one of them. He’s notable because he’ll start threads specifically saying magic should be full of wonder and mystery, and then have a meltdown when asked what game he’s talking about, since he’s trying to ramble about /x/ shit instead of traditional games.
>>98341653>>98341885You have autism
>>98342125>YouSorry, different posters. Stay mad, bro.
>>98341157Ars Magica is the best. It is a shame that you have to read a 500 page book to understand it all, and even then you're just scratching the surface. I wrote this little summary a while back to teach the basics. I am also of the unpopular opinion that Ars Magica's magic system is much more fun when you use it in a setting other than the no-fun-allowed medieval Europe it was designed for.
Barbarians of Lemuria has a loose magic system
>>98342329>no-fun-allowed medieval Europe>there's a mechanic for spells taking seasons to makeIt's an extremely grounded game considering, and that turns a lot of people away from it. I briefly looked into it but couldn't get any takers to put together a game.
>>98342373it requires a very special kind of autism to learn the system in the first place. It's difficult to learn, and extremely difficult to run properly. The setting basically makes doing anything fun with magic illegal, which ends up making players aimless as they realize they cant actually do much with the awesome power they wield.
>>98341202struck a nerve huh bitch? LMAO
>>98341233/tg/ is the shitposting board, retard.
>>98341880is the wall a person?
>>98342329all those words just to be less comprehensive and less elegant than other games lol
>>98342426All that information is scattered over several chapters in the actual rulebook. It's a tome.
Games about simulating tactical combat against adversaries controlled by the game master either need their rules clearly and consistently designed or to be played in extremely good faith by people who are actually mature adults. Games that aren't about trying to tactically wrangle an edge in a combat scenario can get away with more interpretive rules without it causing any issues. The reason nerds have been arguing abiut this for 50 years is that while there are plenty of people who want a game where the rules structure for enacting magic is flexible and interpretive because it allows for a different kind of game, there are also a great many nerds who simply want their wizard to be stronger for fighting beholders, as if wizards needed to be stronger.Frankly I don't like magic being a substitute gun anyway. It doesn't matter how locked in or freeform the system is if you are just using it to do something boring. D&D would be instantly improved by removing every single attack spell and making everything except minor illusions and mind controlling effects protracted rituals. I'd rather play a game where wizards destroy cities by building an elaborate model of it and then summoning a demon to destroy the model and give everyone a plague than a game where a wizard is a dude who shoots cold bolts from his fingers.
>>98342430ok. thanks for agreeing with me? lol
>>98342470lol boring loser
>>98342496Nogames poser
>>98339525I stopped caring at some point
Only legitimate autistic people don’t understand what mystery has to do with magic since they can only look at the rules and buttons and parameters not the actual perception or cultural impact such things will have on the world. This also implies that they don’t roleplay or actually value the narrative or setting. The person typing “no games” only wants to play games he doesn’t want to roleplay or immerse himself in the world. Typical autismo. Probably got laughed at because his player concept sucked.
>>98343404Hi wonderfag. Sorry you don’t still have a blog.
>>98343404>Only legitimate autistic people don’t understand what mystery has to do with magic since they can only look at the rules and buttons and parameters not the actual perception or cultural impact such things will have on the world.No, it's you being insufferably autistic by insisting one minor etymological quirk is grounds enough to synonymize a massive swath of different traditions to a fuzzy non-thing, no matter the basic syntax errors prescribing the adjective "magical" causes in Elfgame rules.>This also implies that they don’t roleplay or actually value the narrative or setting. No, that's you, because you keep rejecting out-of-hand that there is any valid separation between "magic" as an objective phenomenon inside the setting and "magic" as a descriptor of real-life superstitions.>The person typing “no games” only wants to play games he doesn’t want to roleplay or immerse himself in the world.Incorrect, I am goddamn OBSESSED with the soft-simulationism of ludonarrative resonance, wherein the rules all correspond to actual in-setting phenomena adulterated by ease of resolution and pressuring for desired play-patterns. I will come up with setting elements built off weird quirks of the rules, and design rules to represent previously-unmechanized corner-cases of the setting.
>>98343473I think you’re overreacting
>>98343473>"magic" as an objective phenomenon inside the settingMagic can be objective, but still not be perceived or interpreted as magic, is a previous point that was made. >"magic" as a descriptor of real-life superstitions.That’s magic, period. A label. A proxy. A placeholder. Isolation doesn’t work. It’s like insisting that fossil fuels be called magic, and nothing else.
>>98343404games are defined by rules, sorry.
>>98343613And uncovering the rules of nature is a prime component of mystery, religion, etc.
>>98343639So is that the objective of the game you’re playing, or just babble that couldn’t make it into your amazon book?
>>98343602>Magic can be objective, but still not be perceived or interpreted as magicThe lack of the perception or interpretation does not remove that the internal context of the setting does in fact have an objective phenomenon the best common use English word for is one of the non-subjective meanings of "magic".>That’s magic, period. A label. A proxy. A placeholder. Isolation doesn’t work. It’s like insisting that fossil fuels be called magic, and nothing else.It's YOU making the argument that "magic" can mean nothing else, by insisting on your reduction to this farce of a "common" meaning in refusal of any contextual variance and BASIC FUCKING SYNTAX. Unless you can explain to me how your definition of "magic" functions as a noun, you are Not Even Wrong because you insist on being lost up your own ass instead of engaging with anything about Traditional Games or the settings thereof.>>98343639How can you have a game about uncovering the BASIC rules of what you're using?
>>98343404>rules and buttons and parameters not the actual perception or cultural impact such things will have on the world.I do think nerds overdo the rules sometimes, but "it's a mystery" isn't necessarily always the answer. A magic spell is a tool and people want consistent results from tools. Oracles and divinations are about reducing uncertainty. If I ask a chicken a question, say the right formulae, and then poison it to get sn answer, why it works can be a complete mystery to me but the actual oracle is standardised rote operation (this is an actual well documented magical practice from a famous ethnography I'm not schizoposting here). The truth is that magic, religion, and science exist in a sort of uneasy triangular gamut in reality, but games often work to separate them in ways that are dissatisfying. In a corpus like the "book of the dead" the real difference between a hymn and a spell is that a spell harnesses a ritual process to create some sort of ritual-consequence. A hymn might praise and entreat a god for favour, but it can comfortably exist beside a spell that commands the same entity using some sort of ritual enactment that directly identifies the dead user as osiris and sort of harnesses his cosmic authority. If you've ever played TED it basically works like mantling. I'm Osiris now, behold my symbolic enacting of Osiris's deeds, with the logic being that ritual reenactment in the has a quantifiable result. Archaic akkadian (and sumerian) magic incantations are very formulaic and typically contain a series of "I have..." sentences that the professionals think were likely accompanied by actual physical actions, like a little 1 man drama.Point is that magic isn't easy to define and while I have a degree in more or less doing that it is important to remember that we are talking about games and personal taste for game style matters. Magic is about action and result, but the actual causal relationship is not physical. Hard to gamify that well.
>>98343718>>98343792I think you’re overreacting
>>98343639no, not rules of nature. rules in the rulebook.
>>98344166Real life is a rulesbook. God is the gamemaster.
>>98346260That’s stupid, and so are you by proxy of claiming so.
>>98343613>the game is defined by rules zero Yes, I'm glad we agree.
>>98343792I like extremely formulaic magic that may or may not actually matter. It’s just culturally systemized. How much of a ritual truly matters? Who cares. You’re still expected to do it.
>>98346859nope you lose
>>98339608Please, tell us how you intend to make a magic system that isn't a system...
>>98340009
>>98347944Its the core defining rule, you're right. Rule zero defines the game.
>>98348386Define rule zero then
>>98348440Helps if you read the whole book and actually run games but here.
>>98341653>Got seared in my own head from like two months where loads of threads vaguely about magic degenerated into flinging bullshit over rejecting eachother's premisesThere's three or four severely autistic posters on /tg/ fixated on the subject of magic. As soon as you get two or more in a thread together they just screetch at each other for hours because they all have very particular ideas about how magic should function. It might be the only thing keeping the board alive outside of general threads.
>>98348461Anon, all that does is just prove you have no will of your own and/or aren’t interested in engaging faithfully in a discus. All Rule Zero really exists to be is serving as an establishment of the social contract between players and GM where they’re agreeing that the GM and the party has the implicit trust and authority to serve as the final word on any disagreements or disputes regarding the rules. It has nothing to do with magic or the fluff, it’s just saying that two autists at loggerheads over how a fireball works still should trust their GM to make a fair judgement regarding how it does, or they should just leave the table. We have all the other rules after Rule Zero in order to actually have a functioning game. We have Rule Zero to basically agree to a functioning table. And a game where the game can’t actually define the intended outcome of a specific action nor has a game master willing to be the final definitive word might as well not exist.So piss off with your “rule zero “ crap. Fucking gormless retard.>>98348501And most of it’s not even entertaining autistic ramblings about magic either. It’s mostly the same people getting hung up on the word choice and definitions of shit. It’s rather sad, really.
>>98346260nope.
>>98348386nope you lose
>>98348543your definitions are wrong idiot
>>98348626I know you don’t have an original thought, you retard, you don’t have to remind me,
Frankly I think everyone should agree with me and like what I like and if you don't you are bad and wrong.
>>98343805He's just frustrated by an off-topic spammer shitting up the board for years.
>>98348543>wants to obey the rules >can't obey the rule of 'figure your shit out nigger' typical
>>98351820Congrats, you’ve said nothing of worth, you dumb fuck
>>98351830nou
Hmm....
>>98351860Every time it’s pointed out that magic is mysterious in essence there’s some idiot on this board who has a massive meltie.
>>98352385Yeah, and they keep making threads to whine how nobody else thinks that it’s mysterious or wonderful and call everyone atheists despite everyone telling them to fuck off
>>98339525>Magic is a subsystem defined by rules.Roll a d6 and if it entertains me, is a rule. >Discrete, Compact with clear play guidence and pass/fail states. I look forward to your games surely.
>>98352396I’m pretty sure most people think magic is “idk it’s magic I ain’t gotta explain shit” anon
>>98352720I’m pretty sure most people don’t think of magic at all
>>98339525The only requirement to have magic work in a game is that specific spells and specific effects do not deviate in how they work from time to time. It is in no way necessary for magic to conform to a system of rules or to be symmetric.
>>98339525Ok.
>>98339933here:i just tell my gm what my magic does every time i use it
>>98357682And then your GM tells you “No, it doesn’t do that.” What now?
>>98357682>mother may IYou don’t play games.
>>98358507Ok.
>>98351860Every time it’s pointed out that magic is a subsystem defined by rules there’s some idiot on this board who has a massive meltie.
>>98353012Yes it is.
>>98339573Based brapperoni poster
Bump
>>98339573Can you fuck off?
>>98339525>>98319131 You're both retarded.
>>98361905Only if you have a moderate to severe intellectual disability.
Ironic, LOL
What’s so funny
>>98339525But that’s wrong.
>>98339525Was this thread really necessary? It just looks like you’re a weak bitch.
>>98358507He plays Mage: the Ascension.
>>98339525Just make a general at this point, retard.
>>98339525The fuck are you smoking
Is this a duplicate thread?
>>98398421It's the same image with the opposite bait statement as the other thread.
>>98398421The guy who talks about the psychology of magic draws immense amounts of ire
?
>>98389791>THE WALL
>>98401865Mostly cause he’s an annoying faggot who spams these threads whenever he can and demands all games should be run with no rules for how magic work in games to preserve their “mystery”, with his ideal being a bunch of nerds spending an entire game night arguing whether a dragon should perceive itself being hit by a fireball or not.
>>98403717> demands all games should be run with no rules for how magic work in games to preserve their “mystery”He has never done that.It’s just the autist who assumes he is; he assumes you can’t keep have the player and the player’s character perceive things differently. Of course they can. Unless you think the player’s character is aware of the player playing as them? There’s also an autist who thinks this is all an attempt at sounding profound, when in reality this is all basic information to soulless atheists. Religion and magic aren’t complex or complicated concepts.
>>98404656>soulless atheistsOh, hey, you’re the wonderfag spammer himself. He always outs himself by referring to people who ask what this stuff has to do with traditional games as “atheists” as some kind of straw man. Trying to defend yourself via third person is pretty pathetic, you know.
>>98404677I can make fun of retarded theists who refuse to see the substance or mechanics in all things, if you’d like? I don’t like either. Tell them God is an alien and they’ll fucking lose it. Even though you’re 100% correct.
>>98404677Also, I brought up atheists as an example of people who see magic and religion as just some psychological frame of viewing the world. Those same people will, however, deny the association all the same.
>>98404684None of which matters in a tabletop game. The majority of human beings can separate their views on the supernatural from the way their game presents itself as a work of fiction and in terms of how the game’s rule set functions. You don’t have to be either a fedora tipper nor a god botherer to be capable of that. Most normal people can accept a fireball in d&d as simultaneously a fictional construct, an actualization of spontaneous combustion, and a particularly strong limited-use attack wirh particular properties and a area of effect without short circuiting their tiny minds.
>>98404695I see it as a pointed distraction from answering the question what usage this argument has for making one’s game of ttrpgs better, sorry.
>>98404705Ok. The tabletop matters. Yes. But these are also ROLEPLAYING games. The in-character perceptions DO matter, anon. Your character isn’t necessarily looking at it like the game it is. That would quite existentially shattering to them. Or maybe you’re only in it for the rules and don’t care for roleplay at all? Maybe a simple board game like shoots and ladders is more your style?
>>98404715>The in-character perceptions DO matter, anonSolely for fluff. That’s the issue here. Nobody has an issue when it comes to someone who doesn’t believe in magic getting into it with a bonafide magician. It’s all in good fun, like arguing whether smurfs are mammals or insects. The issue comes when insisting it should also apply to the rules themselves, as in make the actual game action of throwing a fireball just as vague and “mysterious” to the player as their player character. That is the point it just becomes self-indulgent and harmful, when it directly harms the game. If you’ve somehow built your game off that kind of “mother may I” framework it’s one thing, but I’d rather have less needless arguments on the semantics of certain things so I can argue on the semantics of other things. Which means for the purposes of play, I prefer the fluff doesn’t interfere with the crunch and that fireballs stay consistent on a mechanical level.
>>98404736>solely for fluffRoleplaying is just fluff to you? Man you don’t belong here. To a lot of people here, a game is a story first and foremost.
>>98404765Okay, let me reframe this in a way that even you can understand, dumbass;I don’t need my role playing games devolving into a Death Battle thread of nerds squabbling over vaguely misunderstood “fears” and attempts to quantify power level shit starting with no basis in anything but their own vibes. That’s the kind of shit wonderfag is proposing, and it is the worst damn way to play ever. I’d rather pretend to be a wizard slinging fireballs at goblins over getting into an evening long debate arguing out the properties of a fireball and its effects because the GM didn’t have a rule for it, thank you.> Man you don’t belong hereI think that describes you.
>>98404795I feel like this is bordering on an unhealthy obsession for you.
>>98404875You like to make random assumptions of people you’ve never met, considering you call people who don’t share your world view “atheists” at random.
>>98404881You’re justifying why it’s okay for an autistic rules based perspective to take precedence over a narrative based experience.
>>98404883Again, nice assumption. My preference is just to have less squabbling and rules lawyering in my games by having clear base rules so we can focus on actual roleplaying. You’re free to play how you want, though you’ve yet to show how an absence of rules and clarity makes a ttrpg game better.
>>98404897Ok.
>>98404934Go on, tell us good sir. Unless you can’t?
>>98404945Ok.
>>98410002Belated concession accepted. Have a good day.
>>98342329I'm going to out myself as a fool and admit I had only heard of it through the Minecraft mod, if this is as condensed as I think I aplaud your effort to summarize the basics, sounds like my type of game, I will have to look for someone else to play it with later this year
>>98410375>if this is as condensed as I thinkArs Magica is a game who's book is structures as such to make absolutely nothing make sense until you have read all of it. Which was EXTREMELY frustrating as I read the damn thing. Hence why I wrote that summary in the first place. It is however a fantastic magic system that has never been paralleled. The possibilities are unlimited. The creation of magic items in particular are ridiculously fun.
>>98339525>Mage the Ascension>Roll Arete and pray the Dm understands less Esoterica then you>Protip>He doesn't.
>>98339922Tell me your a midwit without telling me you're a midwit.
>>98410645Mage the Ascension is an awful (autistic) game for awful (autistic) people
>>98373513
>>98414851i bet you think you’re pretty funny
>>98414851That was pretty funny.
Remember, physics has laws, magic has whims :)
>>98340074I bet your dad works at Nintendo.
>>98417039That just means the observed law and theory of magic is that magic is whimsical, or akin to a living thing. There’s an intelligence to it. Imagine if causality, evolution, had an intentional course of action in regards to its various outcomes. Imagine if nature treated itself artificially. This could be fitting in regards to past concepts like animism (everything is alive - even rocks) and later concepts like the human existence being a microcosm of a larger macrocosmic existence. As above, so below. Made in God’s image. God being nature, or existence, itself. Etc.
>>98419258And his has that factored into the last game you played?
>>98421653happens every time someone casts wish, or uses wild magic, or perils of the warp, etc.
>>98421908I call bullshit. Go into detail on how it factored into the last game YOU played.
>>98422075i call you a retarded shitposter and ignore you until you spend equal effort on making posts as what you're demanding of others
>>98422138Ah, so you were indeed bullshitting. Thanks for confirming it.
>>98422491>no uno u
>>98422500It was a simple question. Not anyone else's problem you can't answer it, nogames.
>>98422530>just act like a monkey for me while i do nothing to reciprocate and laugh at younope, you need to put up or shut up
>>98422782You're the one who made the claim, it's your job to prove it, nogames. No one's going to do it for you.
>>98403025.
>>98422822i made no claim related to your shitpost challenge
>>98423051Concession accepted. Hope you find a real game some day, anon.
>>98423092your schizophrenia isn't a good argument, but i hope it's fun for you at least
Is the nogames guy the same guy who constantly cries wonderfag
>>98424709Well, I call wonderfag that only because he makes himself known by repetitively making threads and posts about how “mystery and wonder” are some kind of qualifier for something that exists entirely in people’s imagination. Otherwise he’d be just any average schizophrenic shitposter on this he’ll site.
>>98342470>well reasoned post in an engagement baiting autist's threadGot more patience and forgiveness than I do
Please kill yourself OP.
>>98424742He not exactly wrong, though. That’s kind of where the concept came from.
>>98427306His postings have him saying dumb shit like casting magic spells should be as obfuscating and confusing of a process to the players as it is to their player characters to "preserve the mystery and wonder", which would be more time-wasting and annoying than useful if it were ever actually done at a table. If he wanted just to solely talk about how hocus pocus crap relates to the game settings, the spammer and his copycats would say as much. But they want it to extend to the actual game rules too, which is the point where one has to ask what the merit of an undefined nebulous quantity such as "mystery and wonder" are if such a thing is actively interfering with the table's enjoyment of their pass-time.
While I'm capable of designing a high crunch magic system with rigid rules and codified effects,. High crunch results and calculations don't make a game a game. People who think you need this to have a game haven't made a game before. Its crab logic.I just got done with, and have started supporting, a superhero TTRPG, and I'd argue a power system is a magic system.The entire system is governed by a single die roll with added modifiers. It works a treat. More rules do not make a game objectively better.
>>98427397>His postings have him saying dumb shit like casting magic spells should be as obfuscating and confusing of a process to the players as it is to their player characters to "preserve the mystery and wonder"Lol. He’s actually just saying that the rules of the game shouldn’t be obvious to the characters of the player. The players, sure, but no one in-setting or in-character will say shit like “Oh wow that was a sweet roll”. Why should the characters be aware of the fourth wall?
>>98427943No, he's pretty consistently said he wants the rules themselves to be obfuscated to the players because of some "wonder and mystery" crap, and then starts calling people atheists when they say that sounds stupid. Nobody gives a shit about player characters in regards to how the rules function except stupid autists who pontificate over pointless shit.
>>98427961I think you might be a liiiiittle bit schizo. Just a little bit. A little pinch.
>>98427966>Rules being obfuscated for the players outside of what is necessary just wastes time for everyone>Y-y-y-ou must be schizo! It's the only explanation! I don't have to explain how I know this, you just are!If you're going to post like an NPC, then you probably shouldn't have hit post in the first place.
>>98427306He's never played a single TTRPG.
>>98427306>He
>>98427988Meds. Take them.
>>98431144>>98431157no u
>>98431157Touch a raw nerve, loser?
Fuck yourself
UGH
>>98341880>Target: 1 person>1 person>personThis spell clearly doesn't work on objects, animals or monsters. If it were intended to, the writers were god-awful at their jobs.
>>98434156That’s funny tho
>>98404684one could argue god is the only thing that can't be an alien , since he in theory is naturally connected to all things. he isn't "alien" , to any of them.
>>98339525can't you just both have mechanical magic and mistical more actual magic , by just having rules and conditions that the DM (and maybe even players sometimes) can use that change how the magic works.something as simple as having to roll for spells , could in theory give the spells some of that real life mistisim.like a divination spell that works on a coin toss , but your character is forced to belive its true.that is how it works irl I think. I feel like this is just a problem of wonderfag wanting to wax poetically about the true nature of magic , but he doesn't want to put that in a way that would fit games.even just the simple idea of the DM being able to change the spells slightly for roleplaying reasons (within reason) , could really make the wizard feel like a wizard.I feel like this is a problem that is very difficult to solve in something like a videogame , but for normal games this should really not be an issue , you just have to not be lazy about it.
>>98440490>can't you just both have mechanical magic and mistical more actual magicyou do in actual games, actual stories, etc., this argument is completely made up so that people can argue over nothing on the internet
>>98339573kek.
Ugh
>>98442701This. It’s just a bunch of losers who got booted from the worldbuilding general who want to pretend that this is some kind of great debate of theming over mechanics when you can have both just fine.
>>98442701>>98446393This was already pointed out. There’s a certain someone here who is obsessed with rules and mechanics and hates story and setting to the point where they rage at any mention of world building or magic being mystical or wondrous. They’re the same person that goes “games?” in so many thread. They’re a beep boop beep autismo or something.
>>98447940You're not fooling anyone.
>>98447940Sup, wonderfag?
>both sides pointing at each other and going "see!? he exists!!!"that doesn't mean either of you have a point
>>98448004There’s no sides, it’s a bunch of autists steamed that even the world building general laughed at them and making it everyone else’s problem. A lot of tables default to D&D out of convenience, but magic doesn’t have to be one thing or another in a tabletop game. It can be as hard or soft as befits the game and way the table likes and agrees upon.
>>98447940
>>98448035>but magic doesn’t have to be one thing or another in a tabletop gameMagic is magic. Don’t pretend a rock isn’t a rock.
>>98449106Magic is both an abstract concept and a mechanic in the game. Try again.
>>98449106>Magic is magic.fake news
>>98449219Wrong. An external mechanic isn’t immune to being seen as not magic. Glowing blue goo/energy is still a part of physics. Calling it mana or magic is like calling fossil fuels the black blood of the earth. >>98449258“How the fuck did you do that?” is magic. An alien could deconstruct a magic missile into its base particles and label it as various scientific things. In fact, the alien’s bar for magic is a lot higher and more impressive. Their geniuses back home are poking at things the humans of this world can barely comprehend.
>>98453692Anon, I’m talking about an actual tabletop game. You know. The kind you okay with humans. Are you not?
>>98453722That /x/ reject has never played an TTRPG in his life.
>>98449106if rock is rock, then why doesn't it sound like music
>>98453692>An alien could deconstruct a magic missile into its base particlesdoes magic missile have particles though.
>>98456850>is a wizard's fireball really made out of fire thoYES RETARD HOLY SHIT
>>98457076He said magic missile thing, retard. Maybe you need to get your eyes checked.
>>98339922based so tru.So tired of my friends constantly recommend chudan sandergoy books to me. I was working on writing a story and some friends in a writing discord I used to be in was like omg you have to watch his videos about magic systems. And liek idk it basically was like about how you need to follow his retarded rules or your book sucks. Dude just gets off on stifling creativity
>>98457076the thing is , from a scientific perstective is magical fire , fire?what if this fire doesn't have any scale past that point.I understand the premise of an alien being able to reduce magic missle to science , but to assume that science would not be alien in of itself is wierd.magic missile doesn't need to have particles , in the same way fireball doesn't obey some pretty important rules about fire.
>>98457869Does the “magical fire” burn you, anon? Is a burn from “magical fire” suddenly not considered a burn because it’s a different source of heat?Christ. All magic is physics. By default. It is not possible to avoid this fact.
>>98457869>but to assume that science would not be alien in of itself is wierdHe’s only ever said the opposite. There’s still mystery and wonder to science today. People just don’t call this essence magic anymore. The low iq masses think magic is literally separate from physics, which makes no sense to a physicist. The supernatural isn’t not natural from the supernatural’s point of view. What is magical, supernatural, etc, is relative. Calling something unnatural is closer to an opinion or a relative frame of mind for the time. A cellphone today will be seen as supernatural to someone from the past. It doesn’t matter if WE can explain it (this is also ignoring that most retarded low iq zoomers don’t even know how their phones work… they simply know how to use them…), since it’s just so out of the ordinary.See >>98414375 for more.
>>98460769Begging the claim
>>98460814And how has this affected the last game you were playing?
>>98460817??? Can you chug saltwater please ???
>>98460837>immediate ad hominem Typical And your statement of “All magic is physics” is a presupposition of the validity of its own claim, given that a) you have. It defined what magic is/isn’t, and b) have not included any of thr verified properties of “magic” that fall in line with physics as we understand it today. Someone could easily say “all magic doesn’t comply with physics” and it would be just as valid. Learn to logic sometime.
>>98460826It affected my game when some dumbass to my left had the actual audacity/balls to claim psionics and miracles are totally not magic, to me, ME, a bloody anthropologist who knows more this shit than he does, especially about this topic of all things. Leading to an absolutely useless argument because he cares more about labels than logic. “Let’s just drop it man.”. LMAO. Yeah let’s just let people be retarded amirite? Magic is a sensitive topic because it’s a lot like religion. When someone explains to aomeone the psychology behind magic and religion, they see it as a threat, challenge, an assault, etc. Humans deeply want magic or something wonderful to be real (despite the fact that we’re living in a literal 21st century utopia akin to Atlantis). Telling someone how magic works at its deepest level, or roots, despite the bloody simplicity of it, is seen as a spiritual assault. “No magic is this.”. They resort to the superficial shape and not the underlying lead-up. Hilarious!A lot of people have supplanted God with fiction. “An omnipotent God can’t exist? Well fiction is surely omnipotent and can be anything… better become an escapist loser…” (fiction is quite limited but these people are hopeless). God I hate escapist rotted dweebs. They hate real life so much they cannot into basic logic to save themselves the embarrassment. These same people exist in the form of transsexuals who hate the reality of biology. “Nooo, use the words and labels I want you to use, it makes me feel better!”. Um, okay, but to the average bloak on the side of the road, sex and gender mean the same fucking thing. John Money was a monster btw. >>98460862>And your statement of “All magic is physics” is a presuppositionLOL. No. It’s not. Does it exist? Is it real within the fiction? It’s physics. It’s reality. Deal with it. Fire isn’t suddenly not fire because a wizard conjured it. A burn is still a burn. Heat is still heat.
>>98460862>Someone could easily say “all magic doesn’t comply with physics” and it would be just as validNope. That’s a case of an author being retarded. “Well, in MY story, causality doesn’t even exist!”“Then how is it even a story, Timmy?”It’s as simple as that. You cannot take out the most basic of shit when the most basic of shit is REQUIRED FOR YOU TO EVEN HAVE A NARRATIVE TO BEGIN WITH. God damn you’re stupid. You should kill yourself. Fast. I consider cognitive walls like you a threat to the human race.
>>98460914Ah, so you’re just butthurt someone else said you were wrong in the context of the game’s ruleset and thought he meant in terms of real life folklore. Well, depending on the game you were playing, he could be right or wrong. If the rules allow counter-magic spells or actions like Dispel from D&D to affect psionic powers and clerical/Paladin powers, then you would be right. But if they don’t, then they’re different. Simple as. Unless you’re the kind of autist who can’t accept they’re wrong in any capacity, in which case I don’t know what to tell you beyond take your medication.> presupposition>LOL. No. It’s not. Yes, it is. > exist? Is it real within the fiction? It’s physics. It’s reality. Deal with it.Begging the claim again, lol.> Nope. That’s a case of an author being retarded. Or…maybe you’re the retarded one.
>>98460942>so you’re just butthurt someone else said you were wrong in the context of the game’s rulesetIf the context is wrong/flawed? Don’t care. I’m going to point it out. You can’t make a fiction without math, quantification. Full stop. If you argue otherwise you’re not a very intelligent individual. Sorry, not sorry. Cope, seethe and dilate.
>>98461036>You can’t make a fiction without math, quantificationBegging the claim. Again.>If the context is wrong/flawed? Don’t care. I’m going to point it out.So you admit he’s right, but you’re so angry yiu refuse to let it go. Okay. I guess that’s a way to live your life.>Cope, seethe and dilate.If it spergs like a duck, aka what you’ve been doing…
>>98460942Are you the type of person who would argue sincerely that Game of Thrones (George R R Martin’s) worldbuilding “actually makes total sense”, purely because that’s how the author wrote it? And the author can never be wrong? NO TAX POLICIES??? WHERE ARE THE TAXES??????
>>98461114>he’sCute samefag
>>98461120No, I’m the type of person who doesn’t let myself get obsessed with it to begin with. If I shat myself in fury when Phoenix Wright put a parrot on the stand or because the writers never spelled out who rotates the tires on the Batmobile, it’s not the writer’s fault I’m a pathetic autist who cannot let this shit go.
>>98460930What causes this level of brain damage?
>>98461176Being rational and surrounded by the irrational mostly
>>98461356I don’t think the autist who spends his spare time screaming at the book telling it that it’s wrong about some pointless detail rather than just chucking the book away and never giving it a second thought is the rational one
>>98461383I think it’s more the fact that the irrational seem to think that authors are infallible
>>98461391Ah, so you’re the kind of person I’m describing, git it.
>>98461399I guess the Bible is absolute canon then
>>98461438I’m not Christian, so beyond what the first council of Nicea decided that statement means nothing to me.
>>98461356Nothing about this thread is rational, you're just a sperg.
>>98453692This is the dumbest thing I have read in several hours, and I have spent almost all of that time on /b/.
>>98461356Can't be irrational, its all physics. :)
>>98460914If the rulebook says divine miracles and arcane magic are different then they're different. Die mad about it.
>>98460769>Does the “magical fire” burn you, anon?some magical fire doesn't burn me. >Christ. All magic is physics. By default. It is not possible to avoid this fact.that doesn't contradict my point , do you know how much scifi bulshit mobojobo exists , an arrow that has no particle that comes out of your finger is not really that high concept.it doesn't matter if magic and sci-fi are the same , you can't assume the alien will think magic arrow has particles.
>>98460814science discovers and changes its paradimes every day.why can't the alien discover something without particules (magic missle).the relativeness of magic doesn't affect the fact that you can't assume magic missle has particles.
>>98460914>Magic is a sensitive topic because it’s a lot like religion. When someone explains to aomeone the psychology behind magic and religion, they see it as a threat, challenge, an assault, etc. Humans deeply want magic or something wonderful to be real (despite the fact that we’re living in a literal 21st century utopia akin to Atlantis). Telling someone how magic works at its deepest level, or roots, despite the bloody simplicity of it, is seen as a spiritual assault. “No magic is this.”. They resort to the superficial shape and not the underlying lead-up. Hilarious!but magic is real anon , and I run a table with a bunch of wizards.why can't we not just believe in the truth.I think their is something interesting in your ideas , I call ideas that are in some way shape of form trully imposible to explain "super fictional".but magic clearly isn't fully fictional , people get the base concept.I strugle to see your enlightenment in the way you descrive this as well , because you always like to point science as just current contemporary science.I feel like you weponise microdosed uses of the sliper slope on your main argument , so I can't actually understand it , without slipping all over the place. but as someone who makes very wierd magic systems , if you can think it , you can make it.unless you tell me how everything that I think is secretly physics and also WHY that even matters in the first place , I would call it magic even if their is no wonder.
>>98463494He’s just a super stubborn spastic who refuses to let go of the fact elf games don’t always conform to his hyper specific grasp of the world, anon, it’s not that deep. For all his talk of other people not being able to rotate the apple in his head, he’s shown himself as the type to argue that the sky was always green and not blue because numerous ancient cultures didn’t have a word for that particular pigment and you’d have to be a retard to think otherwise. And then call you a double retard for pointing out that they eventually did give that particular pigment a new name called “blue”.
sorry i didn't think to check the thread again>>98358150the gm is already fine with me being an authority over what my magic does. if he isn't... obviously no system works if one of the parties involved refuses to use it>>98358507i don't ask, i state.
>>98463494>I call ideas that are in some way shape of form trully imposible to explain "super fictional".Stealing this
>>98463879>i don't ask, i state.No, you don’t. That’s what the one exception in a freeform system when there is a game master present. They still have the power of veto over what happens. It’s part of rule zero. Even most games I’ve seen that allow the players to be as wild and broad as their special abilities allow will have a section clarifying that at the end of the day, the GM is still fully in their rights to curb or nerf certain powers or applications if it’s getting in the way of enjoyment of the game. Your GM is only as lenient and permissive as he is because he trusts that you’ll still listen at any point if he puts his foot down and says that you can’t do this one thing. Cause if you refuse to acknowledge his decision, well, like you said no system works if one of the parties involved refuses to use it.
>>98460914>psionics and miracles are totally not magic, to me, ME, a bloody anthropologist who knowsJack shit apparently because this is how it is in the vast majority of cultures who reference these topics. Gods in most mythologies can use magic, but don't explicitly use magic to enact their will, and Psionics and telekinesis in particular are a modern phenomenon based on mundane physics and pop pseudoscience.
>>98463985>Jack shit apparently because this is how it is in the vast majority of cultures who reference these topicsNope. Most cultures did not distinguish between magic, miracles and science (science as a word originally just meant any field of knowledge, and miracle as a word comes from a meaning for wonder, which is strongly associated with magic). The mind and spirit were long seen as intertwined (the occult community will usually call magick a form of will working, like Crowley or Levi did). In fact a lot of shamanic cultures assumed being able to converse with the spirits or animals was an inherited psychic ability from special bloodlines. This inspired writers like Dan Simmons into writing The Terror. So too, shamans were often called witches and sorcerers if they are malicious, or dealt with malicious spirits. See things like the Tupilaq. Religions around the world, like the Shinto priests in Japan, also frequently referred to their rites and rituals as spells or magic. Any religion that didn’t or had insisted otherwise (like the Church) was resorting to weaponized semantics to look and sound better, or they sincerely had a different understanding of the idea. This is pretty basic human psychology. Those in the Church also knew the irony. Those most frequently accused of magic were monks and bishops, arguing it was “good magic” since it used the authority of God, not demons. You also had spellbooks for the peasantry for the summoning and petitioning of angels, or Christian folk magic. Many Christians did not see a difference between magic and miracles, unless/until they did. They were two sides of the same thing. Black and white. High and low. Theurgia and Goeteia. Christian exorcism actually comes from a form of black magic, or necromancy, called nigromancy (‘nigro’ meaning black). It’s all a callback. Demonologists were usually of the Church. Using the authority of their own god the same way other priests and magicians did.
>>98463985Telekinesis is not a modern day phenomenon. Neither is levitation or flying. I don’t know why you would ever believe this. Do you really think the idea of something spontaneously moving with no interaction was an idea incomprehensible to the ancients?This is a very funny board/website!
>>98460769This anon is just a DND ghoul that has never played any other game. Every single one of his opinions can be discarded since all of his takes is based on magic functioning like DND.
>>98464585It’s the “games?” guy. He’s already screaming about how much he hates mystery and wonder. He only cares about beep boop beep.
>>98464585>>98464592Stop samefagging yourself, Wonderfag. You’re not fooling anyone. Even a storygamer would say you’re full of shit.
>>98464545No, he’s correct. Telekinesis as a term was invented by a Russian dude in the 1900’s as part of his studies on mediums. Which was part of the modern spiritualist movement of study. Just because you’re too stupid to read up on the past doesn’t mean anyone else is.
>>98464535>Most cultures did not distinguish between magic, miracles and scienceToo bad that in elf games they do. Which is what is being played on this board. Sorry.
>>98464632This is like arguing that white people invented racism. You are beyond stupid. That you think a labeled term IS the idea itself, implies you’re a disturbingly low iq individual.I wouldn’t mind splitting open your throat if I had to.
>>98464632There are accounts of levitation in Ancient Greece anon. If you don’t think that’s a form of momentous movement, then I think you’re probably only arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
>>98464601You’re so dumb lol
>>98464657>I wouldn’t mind splitting open your throat if I had to.Glad to see you’re such a well-adjusted and logical individual worth talking to, wonderfag. Seriously, get some therapy.>>98464666They didn’t attribute it to an aspect of the natural human mind that can be unlocked with practice, but a ritual. That’s a small difference, but one that reflects the time the idea was conceived in. I’m sorry that context doesn’t matter to your tiny mind.>>98464673>editing out the (You)Yes, you’re clearly superior.
>>98464683>They didn’t attribute it to an aspect of the natural human mind that can be unlocked with practiceUm. People for thousands of years have been pretending alleged abilities taught by mystical books or people, not limited to levitation powers. It was all over South Asia in fact. But you should already know that, Rajesh. People use their hands for everything. The idea that “hey, imagine if I could just move shit without doing anything?” is an EXTREMELY easy one to come to.
>>98464683>They didn’t attribute it to an aspect of the natural human mind that can be unlocked with practice, but a ritual.Hair splitting fucktard. Ritual in its origin just means proper working. A fucking therapy session can be described as a ritual.
Keep destroying him please
>>98464733>But you should already know that, Rajesh.lol, I’m not Indian. Maybe you should reflect on why you assumed I was, Mr. inventor of racism.
>>98464747He did this before. He thinks ritual means hocus pocus exclusively.
>>98464747>reduced to arguing semantics. Yet again Lol, I think we’re done here.
>>98464821>he doesn’t understand semantics Of course you don’t. >he thinks reducing it to semantics somehow makes it invalid Of course you do.
>>98464632>it didn't exist until someone studied people doing it lmao
>>98464821The whole thread is semantics.
>>98464943That doesn’t make it suddenly good, anon
Damn this wonder hating “games?” guy really is the same faggot making every thread worse on tg by insisting they only talk about rules and DnD
>>98465671I don’t see that guy anywhere, I just see a bunch of spazzes kicked out from the worldbuilding general whining nobody shares their boring opinions about magic. You be sure to flag his posts if you do though.
>>98465698Cute how you pretend so hard.
>>98465893Who’s pretending? I don’t play D&D. I prefer Dark Heresy. What do you play?
>>98339922I get hating BrandoSando, but it's retarded to blame rigid magic in fantasy when 90% of modern fantasy systems are still descended from D&D and MMORPGS. And his stuff is still far more flexible and lite than those.
>>98436683Plenty of tactical games either simply don't have mechanics for interacting with inanimate objects or don't make creature distinctions for targets. Not because the writers are retarded, but because those details are irrelevant to the intended playstyle.
>>98464747>A fucking therapy session can be described as a ritual.If you do, thoughever, you need therapy
>>98464747therapy is kind of a ritual if magic is a thing (and rituals) unto itself.its the study of the soul in some way , and its also something that people use to dilute it.yea most of the time is just normal efficient and chill , but the concepts are always their.therapy is a very state of the art meditation , that also can fundamentally change your soul.don't go full scientology about this
>OMG BROS, PLAYING OUR GAME IS TOTALLY LIKE CASTING AN ANCIENT RITUAL!!>WE'RE JUST LIKE THE WIZARDS IN OUR ELF GAMES!!!!
>>98463985>Psionics and telekinesis in particular are a modern phenomenon based on mundane physics and pop pseudoscience.I mean , their are some forms of psionics being studied in real life that are both scientific and kind of magical , parasycology is a shit show in real life.but still I will give wonderfag this point , the way some ufo fags descrive psi , is very much magical , but allegedly the aliens who like it a lot see it as scientific , or maybe the aliens see it as wonderfull and we are the ones that see it scientific .regardless I think this is a really good example for wonderfag. I think the main problem is how far does the logic go , can I have a magic system were magic is extrictly defined by being ways to punch pregnant women?
>>98464535>This is pretty basic human psychology.you keep saying that , and I do think its acurate . but this doesn't mean its a unbeatable truth that destroys the existance of real magic.maybe relative magic and objective magic can exist in unison.
>>98464683>I’m sorry that context doesn’t matter to your tiny mind.you didn't really argue well for semantics and psychic historically and today is a horrible soup of disconected concepts. I think anon is referring to the specific idea of pionics as basically being able to abuse the mind for some effect , that is neither entirely supernatural or natural , so its both compatible with mistism and science , a lot of scifi and in this context fantasy had that , as something different from magic.part of the reason is that psychicness is paranormal without a lot of the required symbolism (or wonder) of magic. their are even some retards today that think psychics are different from wizards , I know because I am one of them.
>>98466044true , this is a picture of me and my group>>98463494
>>98466359Like if we’re being fully frank. Anon, there’s a reason most sane people check their personal beliefs at the door when it comes to RPGs. Whatever I personally believe regarding parapsychology and religion doesn’t necessarily apply if I’m playing say a game of Unknown Armies, and it absolutely doesn’t when it comes to Dungeons and Dragons or Runequest since they don’t take place on Earth at all. Different expectations, different cosmology, different basic rules to how the underlying structure of the universe works considering concepts like “negative energy” exists as an actively malignant force diametrically opposed to life instead of as a physics term for example.Nobody says “stick to what the ruleset says” out of autistic stubbornness, they do it because sometimes, you have to accept certain conceits that the game runs on for the sake of balance or to avoid nerd arguments. And if you genuinely can’t let that shit go, then it’s a gentle reminder to either leave the table or start your own that conforms to your specific opinions so you can stop bugging others. Whether or not psychic abilities are at all the same as what a bunch of old guys who called themselves wizards did a long time ago…I don’t know. And without the proper context of knowing if we’re supposed to be talking about real life or in the context of a fictional world presented to us, threads like this are just rage bait of the lowest quality.
>>98466520>Like if we’re being fully frank. Anon, there’s a reason most sane people check their personal beliefs at the door when it comes to RPGs. Whatever I personally believe regarding parapsychology and religion doesn’t necessarily apply if I’m playing say a game of Unknown Armies, and it absolutely doesn’t when it comes to Dungeons and Dragons or Runequest since they don’t take place on Earth at all. Different expectations, different cosmology, different basic rules to how the underlying structure of the universe works considering concepts like “negative energy” exists as an actively malignant force diametrically opposed to life instead of as a physics term for example.that is what I find interesting , it makes sence to assume something like science and how we academically view the world is correct and people who disagree are retard.but this growing autism of not only beliving magic is for retards , but for non existing retards . that everything is secretly science , that other worldviews can't actually be comprehended.basically anything different from your owns is so fictional it can't even exist in fiction , that alternate viewpoints aren't wrong , they are non existant.its a wronging thing , wonderfag if you are reading this , their are actually a ton of people like you , who think like you.the problem is that you are autistic about it in a practical sence , not in an intellectual sence , but objectevly you are way more resonable than the averge , you just comunicate to much.but anyhow , this type of super fiction obesecion is actually quite common.and I am using wonderfag basically as both an experiment subject to understand the mindset , but I also see him very magically , because one of my favorite 4chan conversations was him talking too.This man would literally be peachy with his autism if he just actually talked about games better , this board allows to much bullshit it would be fine.
>>98466337>but this doesn't mean its a unbeatable truth that destroys the existance of real magic.It actually does. For magic to exist (this is a weird statement when magic can’t even exist in fiction from the hard realist’s perspective) it will have to rely on SOME form of logic. >maybe relative magic and objective magic can exist in unison.There is no such thing. Objective magic will never be immune to not being seen as magic. The closest you’ll get to magic that is objective is the chemistry in the brain - the mind’s eye - that beings that vital sensation of magic. Otherwise magic is just a trademark and nothing else. “Magic” has always been more magical than Magic™. There will always be something at the edges. Conversely, people today don’t call their cellphones (black boxes) magic despite it meeting all the criteria for it. They don’t know how they work (zoomers are dumb and can’t even use can openers). The masses of men take everything for granted. If everyone has access to magic scrolls and they still call it magic, then it’s like MacDonald’s.
>>98467064that births* that vital sensation of magic
>>98466982Just to affirm, the important thing is this>sometimes, you have to accept certain conceits that the game runs onThe main thing is less whether you personal believe in something, it’s whether you’re willing to at least entertain the conceit and it’s underlying logic or not, provided said logic is internally consistent. Like for example, there was a Phoenix Wright game where the lawyer had been transported to a medieval village and is forced to defend a village girl from charges of witchcraft via fireballing two thugs. Initially, he doesn’t get anywhere trying to convince the courtroom that the girl couldn’t have done it because magic doesn’t exist. He knows it doesn’t exist, but his attempts to prove so go nowhere in court because it’s taken as common fact by the court. Phoenix only starts getting somewhere by changing his thinking approach from “I can prove my client cannot be guilty of casting mating because magic does not exist” to “ASSUMING magic exists, I can prove my client was not guilty of casting this particular magical spell”.Understand? The problem isn’t that someone believes some that is “incorrect”, the issue is outright dismissing a hypothetical entirely out of hand because of their particular beliefs. That’s why atheists and Christian’s alike can play elf games in peace but spenrg lords like wonderfag will never play them. Forget turning the apple in your head, it’s pointless to have a discussion with someone who then goes “aha, you didn’t say what KiND of apple!” and then triumphantly proclaims that anyone would have to be a retard for thinking about granny smiths all the time when such a detail was never part of the question to begin with.
>>98466359>their are even some retards today that think psychics are different from wizards , I know because I am one of them.A psychic, a wizard, or a retard?
>>98467293psychic or retard depending on the day , but I fear that sometimes I am doing magic without trying to.making me both a wizard and a retard.
>>98467064>Conversely, people today don’t call their cellphones (black boxes) magic despite it meeting all the criteria for it.thats because its actually dark magic.>>but this doesn't mean its a unbeatable truth that destroys the existance of real magic.It actually does. For magic to exist (this is a weird statement when magic can’t even exist in fiction from the hard realist’s perspective) it will have to rely on SOME form of logic.but why can't magic own logic on its own , why is logic somekind of currupting force.
Ok
>>98467064Punctuation doesn't change the meaning of a word. Stop trolling. You will not receive a second warning.
Gay and retarded thread
>>98339573based
>>98339573Imagine haha
>>98339525Wrong.
>>98339525Correct.
>>98339525Incorrect.
>>98486121Correct.
Go fuck yourself.
>>98339525Which is better?yugioh's first episodes, full of random bullshitvs yugioh today, full of rules and card text
>>98491606Depends what you’re there for. Both are full of plot holes and bullshit, but one was a card game as plot device and the other is card game as product advertising.
Fuck me
>>98339525>he thinks you can’t keep a rules based system nebulous Skill issue
>>98497850Examples or no balls
>>98339525>dont ever scry on me and my chud son ever again
