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>>98356319
>Totally Not A Fomor Edition
Easy, bakeslave, easy.

>TQ:
All the time. At least it was when I was watching From.

about to run a mta game for the first time 1 on 1 with a friend, we are just starting from the m20 core book and quick start rules not sure if thats the best edition or a better way to get started quickly to learn the system.

>>98356355
The M20 book is incomprehensible for people who already know how the game works. It's useless for a new-comer. Use the revised book instead. Some people prefer the 2e book, but I can't tell you why exactly.

People keep saying its easy to scam demons and not loose your soul. Can anyone post actual mechanics for doing so?

>>98356355
Like Vampire, its better to use the Dark Ages book but play in modern times

>>98356369
We have been trying to reach you about your host's extended warranty...

>>98356319
>How often do you see things in media that could easily be ported into your games without much hassle?
Weirdly, a lot otlf early anime ports to olf WoD with minimal fuss.
Wraith let's you play Bleach as a japanese Far Shore pretty easily.

>>98356231
anyone?

>>98356371
aren't mage mechanics different in dark ages with pillars instead of spheres though

>>98356386
if it can achieve his ascension of being king of hell on earth and unleashing nightmares from beyond reality it should be capable of rending reality to non existence if he wanted to.

>>98356386
solo the setting in big but vague offscreen fights

>>98356369
What they don’t tell you is that it’s written in the demonic investments rules that demons can take back whatever they offered you whenever they please. You can’t “force” them into giving you power before immediately loosing it, or them just waiting for the opportunity to take it back when you needed it the most. You can’t “scam” a demon. They themselves respect the contract only because people are bound to make a deal with them again. Most of the time because fools feel like they can cheat them in the end. You can only play the tease until either you give in, you die, or get out of the game.

>>98356369
Infernal Pacts for high umbral demon like the ones found in Path of Screams offer investments for services other than selling your soul.
Yama King will allow you to buy things with other people's souls if you own them.
Earthbound Demons are summonable against their will.
Spectres are really easy to eat with the permanent being rating they gave you in the first place. Being also lets you eat the above 3 demon types if they get uppity.

The biggest thing you should aim for is access to the the vampire discipline Daimonion, specifically buying it to 6 dots. Doing so lets you gain an infinite free investment loop.

>>98356398
>What they don’t tell you is that it’s written in the demonic investments rules that demons can take back whatever they offered you whenever they please.
Which ones? Their 5 different types of investment and that isn't true for at least 4 of them.

>>98356386
The books for arch-mastery stop at sphere 9. The hints it gives basically say any sphere 10 lets you do anything from any other sphere with your one 10 dot sphere.

>>98356425
So kinda like how every 10th discipline in VtM is called Plot Device?

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>>98356398
They can't take back their power if you destroy them with the maw of oblivion anon.

>>98356369
not sure about scamming but you don't really need to
dark age vampire companion and path of screams have rules for umbrood demon pacts and unless you make a soul pact which is stupid and you should never do because it means the demon fully owns you and it removes your ability to make further pacts for a single 10 dot pact most of these are more like evil quests that are meant to make sure that you generally go to hell upon death. which is not really a problem if you get the 9 dot investment that marks you as already having a place reserved for you in hell middle managment and to be fair most player characters probably will go to hell anyway

devil's due also mentions that you can also just sell other people to demons as part of the pact if you have the know how which leaves you with no obligations to the demon after the sacrifice but is still probably not good if you somehow want to get past the pearly gates

>>98356432
>like how every 10th discipline in VtM is called Plot Device?
Weirdly, VTM actually listed what every 10th dot did back in 2nd edition. "Plot Device" comes from Time of Judgement, which is non-canon if you aren't ending the world.

>>98356231
You essentially become a God of entropic evil.

>>98356411
Nta I’m an online delver, and wiki surfer, but the very first sentence on the wiki says exactly that the investment belongs to the demon. Not the person it’s handed to. And if the contract is breached the demon can take back the power immediately and start pursuing the guy

>>98356402
https://saligia.fandom.com/wiki/Daimoinon
The sixth dot power doesn’t seem to show any kind of loop. Unless your ST agreed to make it up.

>>98356443
Yeah and the 10 dots were mostly underwhelming. They were just an upgrade if the previous 9th dot. No god-like powers, just useful tricks to temporarily subvert a vampire weakness or to fuck over a major city if you wanted. Nothing actually world-ending though.
The Antes used to primarily coast off hype and secrecy before revised decided that noddist blood gods was the new canon.

>>98356443
yeah 2e in general had a different idea of what the antes are then revised

well technically the antes are blood gods thing started with the giovanni chronicles in which cappadocious 10th dot power is described as a godlike power that let's him do whatever he wants as long as it's related to death including bringing back to unlife augustus giovanni if the party kills him

>>98356460
>but the very first sentence on the wiki
Let me stop you there. The wiki is Trash.

>>98356460
>Unless your ST agreed to make it up.
Anon, read Devil's Due. The wiki's are missing mechanics and often just wrong.

>>98356470
>yeah 2e in general had a different idea of what the antes are
What were they like back then?

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Ok who's the Black Sea Kraina Koldun that almost breached the Masquerade this time? Cut that shit out, dude.

>>98356460
>I’m an online delver, and wiki surfer
Anon, you just posted a "I'm a Tourist, please kick me!" sign.

>>98356460
Guy, all the books are in the opening post. You could at least take the citations the wiki provided you and check the mechanics in the books.

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>>98356368
>The M20 book is incomprehensible for people who already know how the game works. It's useless for a new-comer
NTA but for Wraith I've heard the same abou W20 and that 2e is the good one. I'm still pleasantly surprised I just learned today Handbook For the Recently Deceased exists.

>>98356390
Yes & its better

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>>98356487
>Read the Opening Post
*Hiss*

>>98356460
anon we have the pdfs in the op. never use the wiki especially for demon stuff

the wiki is often mixing up things that are unrelated but named the same to stay on the topic of infernalism for a example it combines the german hermetic turned nephanti chantry called the circle of red from the red sign book and the completely unrelated byzantine not nephanti but still infernal guild of mages and unawakened businessman and assassins also called the circle of red from the dark age books
>https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Circle_of_Red
and when you point out that it's wrong the mods will literaly say "but they are named the same how do you know it's not the same?"

>>98356481
just one generation up from 4th gens nothing else

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>>98356483
the headline is forgetting to mention that the guy tried to inject himself with gold to get magical powers and drowned because he ran away from the police because he didn't actually have the money for said gold

>Ok who's the Black Sea Kraina Koldun that almost breached the Masquerade this time? Cut that shit out, dude.
i am assuming the koldun is the source of the gold that guy scammed him out of

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>>98356483
>koldun
kek

>>98356483
>>98356506
so what i am reading is that there is a fledgeling craft of zoolander style mages who call themselves looksmaxxers instead of male models

>>98356468
>Nothing actually world-ending though.
Though you could absolutely delete Consensus overnight with Presence's power to just beam shit into the heads of literally everyone on the planet.

>>98356494
that heavily hinders the variety of magick a mage can do with just 4 pillars specific to their paradigm instead of 9 spheres

>>98356565
Could presence 10 be used to convince the Triat to see reason and act in balance with each other once again?

>>98356527
>One has gender dysmorphia
>The other one is schizophrenic and constantly looking for blades behind the shadows

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>>98356580
There is also a secret order within the Tremere that do nothing except get blackout drunk off absinthe

>>98356589
I'm still mad those motherfuckers didn't accept me.

>>98356573
Anon, read the book, not the wiki. Mages can learn any pillar from any paradigm. The pillars from their paradigm just don't require a teacher.

>>98356615
>The pillars from their paradigm just don't require a teacher
don't let the hermetics hear that

>>98356578
No

>>98356620
The Order of Hermes is what happens when the apprentice you taught wrong as a joke founds his own sect.

>>98356589
>>98356592
>The wizard clan
>Do everything in your power to ruin your brain and rational thinking abilities
It's like Darwinism on steroids

>>98356578
It's just talking to everybody, not controlling them. Trying that on the Wyrm would go something like:
>could you please be normal again?
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>98356638
well we know from the dark age werewolf book that presence goes into the umbra but only if the target is already perciving you in some way (obfuscate doesn't by the way)

and i think that is the deal breaker for interacting with the wyrm using it

>>98356637
Funny enough vampires re immune to the long term side effects of drugs since their body resents to the moment of embrace when they daysleep.
A dedicated toreador can out-slosh an ecstatic mage.

>>98356648
Vampires are always percieved by the wyrm and the weaver since both claim vampires as "theirs".
Anything carrying the taint of the triad is an extension of them.

>>98356573
If youre hindered by your magic then you arent being a good enough Mage. Spheres suck gay dick. Pillars actually make magic feel like magic over every spell that does x requires 2 of this sphere & 3 of that sphere. Lame ass formulaic bullshit. "B..b..but my mage does the spell by smoking weed! That makes it different. It makes it lame. Your magic should have weird connections & themes within itself. Your mage should have Pillars like, "Water" which covers using water elemental attacks, calming emotional magic, maybe some healing, & invisibility, theyd have to learn the Pillar of "Fire" to cast fireballs work with angry emotions & divine the future in the flames. Meanwhile another guy just has "Metaphysics" as a Pillar which let's him use gravity manipulation as well as fireballs & the like. If he wanted to use mind control spells he'd have to learn his "Psionics" Pillar, which also includes precog

>>98356637
>Do everything in your power to ruin your brain and rational thinking abilities
I dont think the tremere subscribe to the path of metamorphosis

>>98356635
the order of hermes is based on the cult of mercury whos members are also unable to even cast sorcery as anyting but "high rituals" and got it's magical lore from the cults of thoth and isis after the romans took over rome

and while we don't have much on the cult of thoth we know that sorcerers from the cult of isis and osiris don't have this limitation meaning they very likely did in fact taught the romans wrong on purpose... that or the romans been too stupid for their magic and decided to make it all of our problem, one of the two

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>unlike my kinfolk, my homid-mind lets me know how bad things really are

>>98356659
So basically the only reason why MtAs sticks with the spheres system is so the writers don’t have to come up with new pillars to fit all mage groups?

>>98356683
nta but dark age mage came out at the near the end of wod and the only mage books that came out after it are dead magic which does features some rotes in the norse chapter that are stated both with sphere and pillar magic and then later... m20 which is made by a actual wiccan schizo who doesn't like how much mage is already based on """real""" magicial practices because he believes those are actually real and dangerous which is why he wants to downplay it. so pillars a lot of which are based directly on folklore never had a chance of being in any of his books

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>>98356682
I know, brother, it's rough. Still, have faith and we shall have victory

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I don't play mage and this discussion confuses me. So is spheres or pillars the cool one?

>>98356715
Pillars.

>>98356700
i thought he was a wiccan schizo that liked that mage was chaos magick larping and said it could be an occult tool

>>98356723
so as a new ST and new player to mage what books should we use to do pillars in modern times and metaplot

>>98356715
Pillars are more flavourful and far less cumbersome ingame but spheres are more universal right out of the gate

i prefer pillars because i am just not a fan of the table discussion for hours what spheres would be needed for a spell only for one player to then pull up a rote from dead magic that says you need mind 4 for your shapeshifting spell to affect the targets mind which ruins another players plan so he stops the game to another hold trying to think of another spell and everything starts again, but i know this is like the thing for some mage players that got them into the game

>>98356578
Tremere going Gen 1 with Path of Blood, maxing out his Charisma/Manipulation, as well as his social skills using some stolen Path of Skulls or Mummy's Drink of the Moche, as well as Mummy Hekau Attribute to get crazy powerful abilities like making people fawn over you & do your bidding in ways Presence or Dominate wish they could. Then add Sorcerer Enchant/Alchemy to lower difficulties & such. Then using Summoning/Warding/Binding to get them in the same room... that might work...

>>98356730
he used to say that when he was working in og white wolf but these days (aka the last 10 years...) on his blog he talks about how real magic is too dangerous to put into a game and how the factions in mage remind him of real life occult organisations that tried to tell you how to live your life and how these are all evil and how the only good thing about the game is the quest for self enlightenment

>>98356638
>>98356654
Imagine the negotiation though
>Can you please stop raping and murdering everything
>NO
>What if you only rape and murder and decay things slightly
>hmm, this interests me. 50%
In between bouts of screaming and kvetching about spider whores.

>>98356683
Yes. Mage was written by people who should never have picked up a pen

>>98356319
>TQ
Surprisingly often, but it helps my table has a very customized and open WoD.

>>98356682
>>98356710
The Glass guys said we couldn't keep any wolf kin recently. They were never my thing, but the situation is getting dire. Anyway brothers, there is always violence.

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>>98356682
>unlike my kinfolk, my homid-mind lets me know how bad things really are
You don't. You really don't.

>>98356742
like some occultists version of trolls remorse where now he things magick is dangerous and you shouldnt do shadowplay and roleplay murderhobos.

>>98356800
yeah he even tries to claim that he didn't worked on mage's first edition when in the old white wolf magazin he talked about how honored he was to work on it and in the first story teller book for mage he claimed that he should get majority credit for it

makes me wonder if he meet a mentally ill person or something who's life was ruined by the game... or if it is just drug and goat overuse

>>98356814
tbf mage is the last game id ever recommend a schizophrenic play

>>98356814
The technocracy clearly brain wiped him.

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>>98356780
Child, the pit of suffering is deeper than you can fall in a single life. You have not even begun to comprehend it's vastness.

>>98356780
Oh hey, those look like the prototypes theyre making in the secret animal testing lab thats under the pet grooming facility off of Plymouth Drive... that one researcher in R&D could get into a lot of trouble if the woofs find out about that location...

>>98356732
You'd just look at something like the Technocracy make a "Science!" Foundation & then four or five Pillars that make sense, like "Dimensional Magic"

>>98356872
The technocratic revision of the spheres are actual great for this. Dimensional Science, Data, and Primal Utility are both broad and hyper-specific enough to function as pillars. You only really need an equibalent of Anima and Vires pillars from the order of hermes.

>>98356882
Exactly. Its all mostly translatable. You just gotta nudge it a little. Plus the different names naturally evoke a different way if viewing the spells youd cast & how

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>>98356867

>>98356780
What is that ugly thing? All tbose resources that could have been used to fund my pitbull modification program. No need to worry about mages (and other deviants) if they're mauled to death as a child.

What is the general cutoff point in terms of generation/age/whatever where 'werewolf kills vampire' flips around to 'vampire kills werewolf'?

>>98356615
>Mages can learn any pillar from any paradigm
not him but I just got a lot more willing to finish reading the book, the dread of being locked down burned me out before I finished faction introductions
though desu it still feels kinda sparse in relation to how many groups there are to choose from, but it can't really help that I guess

>>98356901
Getting to Celerity 5, I guess

>>98356901
Depends on how they've specced in both cases but I'd guess around the 300 mark as an average

>>98356898
A lot of highly specific breeding since certain demographics (either the rich or the poor masses) found certain dog traits attractive, and also because degenerate breeders have no actual higher order thoughts to aesthetics or health.

>>98356909
What i do is make more factions using the same general Foundation. Theres no reason EVERY person using the Hermetic Foundation needs to be part of the Hermetics. Throw in some Egyptian Thoth dudes, some more Alchemist types, etc. Think of different factions/subfactions that make sense & populate the world with them. It also helps alleviate the ethnic/cultural pidgeon holes that WoD does so much.

>>98356901
Minimum 8th gen(activate 3 disciplines at once) and old enough to get your in-clans + the 3 physical disciplines to 4-5.
Then you'll be able to reliably take on a lone ronin garou.

The complication of this is that no harou with actual Rank will ever be without their pack. Hunting entire garou pacts is the realm of methusela and maybe the most combat-twinked elder to ever unlive.

>>98356897
...theyre going to make me rewatch that 2 1/2 hour long training video about divulging company secrets again, arent they...