Is anyone else tired of every setting following DnD footsteps of being anachronical bullshit? I understand is fantasy. But really everyone needs to act like is upper class california? What anachronism in mentality you personally hate and how would you handle it instead? I start with an obvious one>Everyone hates slavery and thinks is just bad but the WORST thing ever, even if slavery was not widespread in the time period the setting is trying to emulate
>>98522970If I cared about "anachronisms", I wouldn't be playing fantasy.Execpt maybe from Ars Magica or something.
>>98522970I feel like the type of slaver would be important though OP.like maybe dept slavery is just seen as our normal dept slavery in our world.war slavery is harsh but it tends to disipate after a while , it happens.groups that are basically slaves in freedom might be a case by case.and maybe then other forms of slavery might be bad and fucked up.is not imposible , fortunatly way less likely , but a lot of common stuff irl is kind of like slavery or at least you could compare the two if you don't care about slavery.
>>98522970I'm not autistic so i don't care
>>98522970Even sorts of indentured apprenticeships were a thing. Millard Fillmore, one of the US presidents, was given to a clothier at a young age, and paid off his debt to then go into school. That was just viewed as normal in 1850s. In the Victorian era (1830s-1900s), the majority of women who worked were privately employed as some sort of maids. It's been an age since I Iooked, but there was like 17 different kinds of specific maids.
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>>98522970>AYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEE THERE'S POTATOES AND PLATEMAIL IN MY FANTASY GAME, SAVE ME NIGGERMAN!!!!!!
Damn right, everyone acting like upper class California IS bullshit. Now, everyone acting like they're straight out of the Jersey Shore, that's REAL DnD there.
>>98522970>>98522996>>98523037
>>98523031Victorian maids are very different from slavery though. Indentured apprenticeships and the American prison system on the other hand...
>>98522970Have you tried not playing DnD?Or maybe play DnD settings where things are grim and abuse is commonplace, like Dark Sun. But this is a bait post and you autistic retards would screech something about psionics or Thri-kreen ruining your immersion through genuine mudcore or something like that.
>>98522970Not really. I get why you'd be annoyed, but plenty of people can't fully separate themselves and their sense of ethics from the fiction they're engaging in. That and desu, slavery is one of those things I don't see an issue with for fantasy games if only because at the very least I can imagine former slaves and the type of people who would be enslaved would also be pretty anti-slavery. That and adventurers tend to have values that can be considered really out there to the normies of the time like the idea that people have "innate rights" or that people are "entitled" to living free and unmolested by nobility, so I could see would-be abolitionists existing.But that's just me. If you're tired of that shit for how disruptive people get over it, I think it's a pretty fair cop, especially if you're trying to immerse yourself in the setting.
>>98523073Honestly fantasy (especially in RPGs) is a genre that gives so little fucks about any kind of historical accuracy that you'd be kinda nuts to want just some accuracy regarding a specific ethical issue.
>>98522970>Is anyone else tired of every setting following DnD footsteps of being anachronical bullshit?I'm tired of settings not following OLDER DnD's footsteps ENOUGH, because it has a really clean way to handle anachronism in shoving the bulk of value-drift between its rough pastiche and modernity in the Law/Chaos axis and the remainder is more welding Old Testament-worthy shit to the High Middle Ages while people are going around with Renaissance armories (sans gonnes).
>>98523093>plenty of people can't fully separate themselves and their sense of ethics from the fiction they're engaging inI think the nature of RPGs works against it.If I watch a movie or read a book there's a level of detachment where I can be interested in someone doing something horrible. A Breaking Bad or The Shield where I can say "that's pretty messed up that you'd do that, but let's see where it leads."With an RPG, there is an inescapable layer where I'm protagonised. I'm DOING shit, and I don't want to do shit I think is dumb and I don't want to do shit I think is weird and gross or fucked up and evil. I'm not going to check out that weird noise on my own without a weapon or a phone, I'm not going to trust Weaselly Doobad the king's adviser, and I'm not going to whip my slave for failing to starch my linens.
>>98523243True, and it doesn't help that in most cases you ARE supposed to be heroes and the rest of the setting doesn't give you any distance from the settings' usual ethical stances and modern ones.
The thing I think which fucks with people's brain when it comes to slavery is that amerimutt culture and the entire victim complex of a certain demographic has completely fried people's understanding that, for most of human history, slavery usually involved people who looked like each others enslaving each others. Chattel slavery of a distinct ethnicity which looks and act different is entirely a weird thing of the spread and extension atlantic slavetrade. Not that slavery didn't suck, of course, but the 'modern' idea of it has a whole racial dimension which makes people unable to approach it as the more widespread (but socially complicated) practice it used to be.
>>98523243That's very true. I was mainly thinking of the kind of weirdos who claim some writer must be a nazi because their story includes one that isn't just a cartoonish parody of a real life one, but you make a very good point. Most people don't have dissociative disorder, and being told to imagine certain things means that they're inevitably going to react to it how they would. Pirate Bob Greenbeard may be a pirate that comes from a culture where people regularly rape and murder civilians, but Bob Nerdmeyer is still the one calling the shots when playing Greenbeard, and how evil Greenbeard acts or doesn't is up to what Nerdmeyer thinks is acceptable or not.
>>98522970>Everyone hates slavery and thinks is just bad but the WORST thing ever, even if slavery was not widespread in the time period the setting is trying to emulateYou sound like you should be shot.
>>98523037Well? What's the problem?
>>98523093>>98523256Pretty much. Even in an "evil" campaign, in any case, you're probably supposed to do something bigger than just indulge in what the bottom feeders are doing. It's still a game you're playing at the table with your friends, and if you spend a good chunk of it describing how hard you whip the slave while the others are waiting to go siege some citadel or something of that ilk. The fact that some stuff is boring is what makes most of these threads utterly worthless. We want to go historically accurate? Interesting things happened only to nobles and only in cities, where mindsets are supposed to be more open. Stuff is still going to be grim and abusive and horrible behind the scenes, and they're not going to act like Californians, but it'll be quite more different than the utterly horrified mud farmer dying of heartache after seeing one (1) person living in a mud farm twenty kilometers away from his own. And let's be honest, if someone says "Oh, but I want to play the mud farmer", they really just hate fun or are making a joke character.
>>98523073All those threads and you haven't been able to come up with a single argument LOL
>>98523280>t. sad LARPer who would support slavery when it was common because all his morals are just [current day] shit
>>98523037Counterpoint: If you people were really interested in keeping things consistent then a whole lot of other aspects of the typical fantasy world should bother more people but 99% of the time it's all selective verisimilitude where people excuse things they like and moan about things they don't regardless of each thing's validity or lack of.
>>98523275While americans are (more or less understably) edgier around slavery than other people, I don't think that it's the biggest or the only one issue of ethical difference that you could bring around from a "in the middle ages it's different!".Like... you could have women having lesser rights, the group being more important than the person, the unequality of different people over the law. Hell, you could have sorcerery being, you know, a crime, how's that mr wizard?But people seem to have a beef about slavery. If we take these kinda threads for real, there are cases of disagreement over slavery being "ok" in a setting, not really the other ones.>>98523301We did play some wokers during a siege to great success, actually. Wasn't dnd or anything fantasy, of course.
>>98522970
>>98523243>I'm DOING shitOP's proposition is talking about settings, not about individual actions or attitudes. Although the idea that your character = you in real life is already so utterly idiotic that makes one think if anyone here really enjoys fiction. More to the point many of the settings completely remove the agency of the players to act in a way that is period appropriate or just believable. Notorious examples include shit like Paizo completely and magically removing slavery from the setting and telling players they're very bad people. Leave the period settings outside, they're stupid enough to do this in fantasy settings too.
>>98523330Thinking of it in practical terms over feelings or ethics, I'd fully argue that anyone who acts wary of slavery being in a game where it has any emphasis beyond "this is evil shit the bad and-or rich people do" is just acting sane, if only because making slavery prominent in any fashion invites scenarios where assholesa) think that this means they can sell each other or npcs into slavery for quick cash, which can lead to a lot of pvp if the party isn't in full agreement with itorb) start thinking it's an open invitation to buy slaves themselves and then turn into evil douchebags via mistreating their slaves or conflate regular slavery with sex slavery and out themselves as total creepsBoth of which are never fun to deal with.
>>98523278It's also an issue of a lack of like, as well as an active dislike.Let's say I'm Bob N and I'm playing Cap'n Bob G as you set out. I might dislike taking prizes, raping women and murdering the helpless. I might not be bothered by it because it's just a game. It's very unlikely I'll ENJOY doing those things though. In a game - most of the time - they're boring. There's nothing to lure me TOWARDS wanton destruction. I want to play a game where I have challenge and adventure and discovery. The only thing to discover in some port-dweller's house is a set of silver cutlery and their imaginary titties. Big whoop.
>>98523329Sure mention what things bother you for being anachronistic from a cultural standpoint. That's what the thread is for and slavery is just one example of many.
>>98523363>PaizoThey'd worked up to a pretty good blow against the slave trade in a very specific region with the first AP they did for PF2e, Age of Ashes. But that alone should not have wiped it away. Slavery should still exist in the far northern regions, in the deep jungles and expansive deserts. The harsher the environment, the more likely there should still be slavery.Not to even consider the rest of their world. Any idea that their Japanchinkorea would be without persecution or slavery is retarded.
>>98523366>acting saneNo they're acting like faggots that shouldn't be trusted to cut their own food.
>>98523363D&D is already creaking and groaning over the fact that if you stop to think about all the violence for a second then the existential dread will set in. Pic related. Slavers are like the Nazis in Indiana Jones: an absolutely guilt-free violence target that you can burn, maim, and throw into plane propellers. I'm not giving that up because one player's IRL weewee gets all tingly at the idea of whipping a bound person.
>>98523387Nah. Putting slaves in any game usually leads to people acting like retards. You may frame it as people acting like moralfags. I frame it as certain weirdos going from normal murderhobo levels of lack of ethics to actively attempting act out their creepy fetishes at the table.
>>98523366Yeah. Might also be isekai influence to add some creepiness/magical realm in the mix.(mind you, I can enjoy some isekai. Hell, I fully admit I enjoy isekai slop and/or isekai ecchi bullshit. The slavery part is still too bullshit to me - if I am supposed to identify as the great overpowered ex-loser MC why the hell would I like the idea of buying love and pseudo-grooming? Shouldn't bitches be fighting over "me", if anything?)
>>98523384>shouldThat word is doing slave levels of heavy lifting in your post. The developers of the game already made their position clear and want to force the audience to play the way they want to. That's the core of the problem.
>>98523375Also true. Evil games are usually fun if you either are looking to ruin the lives of people with easy targets or just want impunity to wreck worse people's lives. Otherwise they tend to die out fast for what you said, the lack of challenge and point beyond destruction and violence for its own sake.
i'm British and tbqh i find the way Americans do the whole 'ren faire' thing, it's pretty charming. it's knowingly its own thing rather than aiming for any authenticity, so it doesn't bother me.within Britain and British-inspired fantasy, you run into all sorts of nonsense. i mean the obvious one is how little the Church plays a role, even in a world with fantasy churches you could just substitute in.but there's also a lot of tedious shit that gets axed in these games/settings/stories, such as different weights and measures, weird greetings and rituals when it comes to the process of buying a product. i can forgive that.also it's wholly an anachronism, but everyone speaking RP. i'm fine with the trend of deciding, say, dwarves are Scottish (i like the idea that elves are Welsh but fuck doing a Welsh accent). RP is a weird one though, because it's like suddenly an extra LAYER of modern invention. we all get that it means 'this person is posh', but they might as well start quoting Shakespeare in the land of Faerun.unrelated nitpick: there was a preview video of the new Fable game, and a Middle-Ages-Britain inspired character uses 'wet wipe' as an insult. lol wut. it's not just e.g. 'she's speaking English', it's she's calling someone 'a wet wipe', as in...wet wipes?some day we'll have these fantasy games/stories and characters will say>GTFO fag, you're too much of a noob for this sidequest.
>>98523406Funny thing, you can blame the slavery thing in isekai slop to the format of the books. Most of the ones that just drop their protagonists off into a world where they have no connections or friends don't start with the page space for them to form proper connections to other people to adventure with. So they just bypass that shit with someone who conceptually has zero capacity to refuse or say no to the hero's quest, aka a slave. Shield Hero is one of the few to ever highlight how beyond fucked up such a setup is for both the slave and the hero buying them even in situations where it's necessary like the hero being a complete pariah and needing to save the world at any cost, but it still dropped the ball hard really fucking fast in that regard.
>>98523414Yeah because some of their faggy freelancers didn't want to write adventures where you punch slavers in the face anymore, for some reason. The excuse was flimsy at best.
>>98523366If you're playing with people who do that the problem isn't the DM making the scenarios, it's the other players
>>98523381When people try to add racism to their games, they base it around modern conceptions of racism where different people belong to "races" despite geographic, cultural, and political distance when older racism is just hating whoever doesn't live in your immediate area/community.
>>98523500>hating whoever doesn't live in your immediate area/communityMore accurately, the realisation that (at that time) anyone you didn't know and who had no roots had very little to lose, and could fuck you over and then disappear.With no national police or even way to identify people once they'd done a runner, the only way to safeguard oneself was to be extremely standoffish.But that kind of attitude leads to shit gameplay so it's rightly left out of most games.
>>98523543Hardly think this is how it went. People did travel in the middle ages, even the earlier ones. They just weren't murderhoboing.
>>98523561No, of course, but if someone was a masterless man that was a problem. You'd have a more tenuous but still present means of redress against Lord Fuckwad's Man, or Jim of the Guild of Buttfuck, or Brother Shitwick of Cockington Abbey. How good those places' rep was with you would determine how you'd relate to those people, and if it was somewhere you'd never heard of then that person had zero social capital.
>>98522970>I understand is fantasyreally? it sounds like you don't
>>98523573Eh, I see your point, but you could pass for a pilgrim of something. No weapons, probably not too much to worry about from the peasant's point of view, for a small group at least.What you CERTAINLY couldn't do is stride into the village in a full plate and expect not only the farmers, but the Local Lord® as well to treat you as nothing of consequence.
>>98523037>All white, not even a tabard>Flimsy shielding>No golem assistant>No tetradirectional>Small wheels>No side blade>No ramming spikes>Excessive cabin space (height)>No frontal cannon>No back catapult or trebuchet>No tower>Small load capacityWaste of time.
>>98523652I don't think that (absent very specific circumstances) strangers were getting run out of the village with pitchforks. Indeed, that was my point in the beginning. People weren't hateful, they were WARY.
Even the ancient Greeks recognized that slavery was wrong. They just didn't know of a good alternative.
>>98523022I am autistic and I also don't care.
>>98523302the problem with the argument is that it doesnt actually have a reason to exclude a modern car but not a dragon thats logically consistentit relies solely on the pathos of a car looking silly therefore bad but doesnt have a logical justificaitionit doesnt actually address why you would allow dragons and elves but not a BMWif you reject a BMW on the grounds its unrealistic then you should logically also reject dragons
>>98523055This is just the average Sword and Sorcery setting
>>98523792I have now this image of Melniboné actually being New Jersey. It's glorious.
>>98523414>>98523384>>98523363I just think it's bullshit that they put so much effort into making it a plot-important reason for conflicts, only to later completely backtrack and try to remove it and pretend it doesn't exist anymore. Stop retconning things that don't need to be retconned.
>>98523825>>98523825They changed their mind, anon. Shit happens.
>>98523055Holy shit Lois, I think this guy is actually a genius.
>>98522970>Is anyone else tired of every setting following DnD footsteps of being anachronical bullshit?It's got nothing to do with that, but no and you answer your own question as to why.>I understand is fantasy. If you do, then you understand why people don't want to run or play games where everyone is dying of dysentery or the plague before age 12 where getting shot with an arrow means instant death or whatever.>But really everyone needs to act like is upper class california?Be honest, by this you mean "isn't constantly screaming slurs".>Everyone hates slavery and thinks is just bad but the WORST thing everIt is. It's a fate worse than death, you have your very humanity stripped away from you and are made an object. Death is preferable, and if you think otherwise you are either a retard or so rich that you've never known suffering once in your entire life.>even if slavery was not widespread in the time period the setting is trying to emulateBuddy, that's not even the most common anachronism. Fantasy in general has never been historically accurate. Fucking B/X had laser guns and cowboys and shit everywhere.
>>98523037This is just modern/contemporary fantasy desu.
I think a setting where magic is relatively accessible it would have major impacts on the economic incentives behind slavery, gender and race relations just as industrialization did in real life. How long such labor saving measures have been established is also a factor, of course. If we look at real life, it seems there's a very small window for relatively peaceful relations between different groups as old systems of oppression become uneconomical and more opportunities open up until differences in cognition and mindset that affect their ability to interact with the new systems make themselves known and/or dwindling resources necessitate people taking care of their own at the expense of all others.
>>98523999if Hephaestus created a self-powered automatic carriage with seats for 4 people and self-heating function, then you really cant complain since his god powers explain anythingand why wouldnt he give it an aerodynamic shell that also protects you from the weather?
>>98524030The real question becomes why would Hephaestus do such a thing, why would he know what the fuck aerodynamics are, and why the fuck would it look like a modern car?
>>98524053>The real question becomes why would Hephaestus do such a thing,because he wanted to>why would he know what the fuck aerodynamics arehis godly intuition and years of experiencing making automatic carriages>and why the fuck would it look like a modern car?it could like anything because the mind of a god is inscrutable
>>98522970I think to really judge this you need theories of why certain cultural mores and ideas arise and take hold. Why, in our midevil/early modern period(it can be hard to peg DnD's "year" exactly cause it just cherrypicks history generally), did people think the way they did, and does that necessarily carry over to another given fictional setting. Or to frame it another way, can you plausibly contrive a narrative where it makes sense for them to think differently.Maybe magic does authentically make a DnD style setting lower scarcity than real life, not just in the sense that more can be produced, but in the sense that lords and other established powers can't effectively extract it all-there will always be a certain level of low level folk magic to allow peasants to create and squirrel away things they wouldn't have had in our time, squirreled away such that it can't just be easily extracted-the reason peasants were quite so poor in the middle ages is because they were taxed and tithed down to the absolute knife edge of survival. If they made more, their lord basically just changed the rules and took all the new surplus and effectively left them where they started. If that dynamic can't quite be replicated, maybe it is a softer world and a softer time in which more charitable, more generous thinking can be fostered-the elites are naturally limited in their rapacity and the real threats are inhuman monsters roaming around.
>>98523381I always find it bizarre how people assume that everything needs to perfectly emulate the convention expectations of medieval fantasy and that includes every aspect of the aesthetic to the culture and how people are expected to react to various different things. There is rarely if ever any consideration they would have arrived at such conventions through alternate means, or that some might be flipped on their head. It basically amounts to the humans being a very obvious real life transplant without usually any care for how they would have been shaped differently by the circumstances of their fantasy world having things that real life does not.
>>98523083>>98523280>>98523597>>98523991Slavery in various forms has been the norm throughout most of Human history. Coercion is the fundamental force of premodern production, and without sufficient advancements in labor or economic structure there is no 'profitable' way to extract resources. You cannot pay any amount of wage for someone to work in a Roman lead mine, you can only compel them through threat of violence.If the setting includes the trappings of feudalism then it should include these unsettling social and economic realities.To a degree it's social responsibility to not white wash what these systems were like. I find it sick and grisly that people go out of their way to try to make feudalism look appealing for the sake of it being comfy. Even in more lighthearted works, there should be the bare minimum representation of hardship, or concepts like indentured service and/or serfdom (if it's applicable and players are interacting with these elements of society.)This opinion may be considered highbrow, but this rampant escapism is infantile. It is the lowest common denominator of engaging with literature or roleplay. If you do not have the mental maturity to be able to handle works of fiction where evils like slavery are fundamental building blocks of society, then you are a legit subhuman.
>>98524093It's just an excuse. No one in their right mind would find DND as anything having more than a very filmsy veneer of castles and 1400s armor.>b-b-but I am not playing DND!Even believing that people sperging about slaves weren't actively playing dnd with a (reletively) different setting and (not really) different systems, fantasy that has some grounding in the actual middle ages as anything more than a scenery inspiration are definitely quite rare now. One would really say what his game IS, and if it's "medieval".Hell, I'm not even sure if we would call Tolkien himself really late antiquity/high medieval fantasy, and he certainly did not only know this shit, he riffed on it (actual LOTR is one big mundus senescit theme).
>>98524132tolkien deliberately based the shire off of the 1800s, including having modern pubs, because it would feel familiar to his audience and cause his english readers to instantly feel like the shire was homeits a design based off of the out-of-universe symbolism rather than any in-universe reason that caused hobbits to be culturally hundreds of years more modern than gondor while still only having medieval technology
>>98524108Counterpoint, it's a game of pretend involving intentionally whitewashed fantasy crap. You're already choosing to pretend that ogres and elves and shit are 100% real and replace human children with changelings instead of just excuses peasants make up to explain why their kids came out as gingers, paladins are noble figures granted powers by their deities rather than bloodthirsty noble middle children sent off to the middle east to keep them from brutalizing all the farmers out of boredom, and witches are genuinely evil bitches capable of casting magic that consort with Satan instead of regular village people that get drowned in duck ponds by other pissed off village people. What makes slavery the straw that breaks the camel's back in a whitewashed fairy tale land meant to be fun instead of solely appeal to the boring mudcore fantasy fetishists?
>>98524108>If the setting includes the trappings of feudalismThis is the funny part: almost all settings don't.Yes, you nominally have barons and dukes, but when do you see obligations? Are farms manors? What's the church equivalent? What situation put in motions something like feudalism, which is quite some specific phenomen?(to be fair, THIS argument is really not-slavery relevant, but)>>98524142Wasn't think about the Shire (or, say, Rivendell). Even the most down to earth "medievalisms" aren't too clear to me. I mean, you certainly would depict the Rohan in his mind (we dont' see it too much) as realistic in this regard, with people living close to what.... I dunno, germanic tribes would've been. Still, the differences are there and aren't small.
The main thing that draws my ire is the assumption of there being some predefined flow chart of how things must go in regard to fantasy antiquity. Who says, that it must all progress at the same rate and general timeframe as reality, that nobody ever skipped steps, diverged, or stayed stranded at certain stages longer than expected? Often I see it as just meta/flexing of real world history and knowledge as though it must also hold similar mastery over a fantasy setting's own history. That there can only be one way for things to happen.
>>98524108>Coercion is the fundamental force of premodern productionThe real answer here being that many of the developers who always spergout against any form of gritty cultural inclusions are the same that benefit the most from modern slavery. Which make their crying about this subject even more disgusting.
>>98524142Tolkien's world had slavery and genocide. So that's a very poor example and explanation of why modern developers can only write trite shit.
>>98523787You reject the car because its mere existence undermines the logistical scale of the established setting and its tone, smart ass.
>>98524279>Tolkien's world had slavery and genocidethe evil people had slavery>So that's a very poor example and explanation of why modern developers can only write trite shit.it highlights that writers always have and always will include anachronisms and do so deliberatelybut for some reason slavery is some incredibly important historical detail that your characters just have to accept exists while also ignoring other anachronisms
>>98524108No. Stop trying to crowbar in your slavery fetish you fucking faggot.
>>98524287and dragons would also do both and yet get a free passdragons break the universe in the same ways cars do and yet are allowed to exist as is
>>98524290>the evil people had slaveryOk, and?>will include anachronismsCulturally speaking Tolkien's world is very coherent and has a mentality appropriate for the era that his books are loosely representing. Nobody was arguing that slavery is bad or good you fucking doofus, do you think there are slave traders on fucking 4chan? You're taking the "slave catfolk woman, what do?" too seriously.Stop doubling down thinking by saying "B-BUT SLAVERY BAD!" you're going to defend shitty, crappy writers. This is about them being unable to write something believable.
>>98524339>Ok, and?OPs argument is that slavery should be widespread and normalized and the players shouldnt be accepting of it because of thatwhich is just an asinine position to takeLOTR does have slavery but as an evil thing in the setting that the main characters all do not agree with this would be a perfectly fine thing to have in any setting, the evil people have slaves and the players dontbut thats what OP is saying shouldnt happen because OP insists that the players shouldnt be trying to free the slaves
>>98522970What is anachronistic for our world wouldn't necessarily be anachronistic for a fantasy world, given that what fits in a fantasy game's history is up to the person making the game.It's just like deciding what's natural, supernatural, and unnatural for a fantasy game's world, come to think of it.Anyway, with the understanding that I can just include whatever I want in my fantasy games, I include whatever I want in my fantasy games instead of wondering why other people with other interests and opposing viewpoints include things I don't like in their games and narrative systems that I don't have to use.
>>98524358What? OP's words were>>but the WORST thing ever, even if slavery was not widespread in the time period the setting is trying to emulateThe opposite argument was made. In an environment where slavery is relatively rare, seeing it as the biggest of woes is stupid because the characters and common people have more pressing matters to take care of.
>>98523280I find johnbrownaboos to be overly performative, but I would much rather have the average D&D player be someone who would go on a quest, no matter how futile or small in scope, to free slaves and kill slave owners in a fantasy setting, than someone who can't even hear the word slavery without spazzing out about consent in gaming. Many of the earliest D&D modules were about fighting slavers, and the AD&D monster manual uses "this monster enslaves people" as a way to justify evil-aligned creatures also having societal organization and also point out that they are evil and not just the other side of a fight.
>>98522970Nogames gets thrown out a lot around here, but seriously unironically hating on the basics of fantasy tropes is the epitome of "I don't play good games" mentality, and bad gaming is just as bad as no gaming.
>>98523787>>98524299A fire breathing flying lizard existing in a setting is unironically less of a logical leap than a modern car. A modern car is a convergence of countless innovations. Computing, binary logic, plastics, the combustion engine, physics, electricity, precision machining for parts, the invention of rubber, steelworking, refined fuel sources, the list goes on.You can say that the metaphysics of your setting allows the existence of beasts that normally wouldn't be physically possible (or if you're trying really hard, bullshit some plausible sounding biology), but a modern car requires modern day innovations and industrialization to exist. If both of those existed, people wouldn't be running around with swords and riding horses.There's more nuance to it than 'this breaks immersion' or 'this doesn't break immersion'. People suspend their disbelief up to a certain point.
>>98524722>A fire breathing flying lizard existing in a setting is unironically less of a logical leap than a modern car.it actually breaks more rules than a car, since we objectively know a car works on realistic principleswehreas a dragon could not exist regardless of any technological or evolutionary developments>You can say that the metaphysics of your setting allows the existence of beasts that normally wouldn't be physically possiblethe metaphysics required to create a dragon are far less realistic than an out-of-place artifact
>>98524729>it actually breaks more rules than a car, since we objectively know a car works on realistic principlesOkay, so could you build a car right now then?
>>98522970Yes, it's awful. Racism, slavery, etc. should exist, it only makes sense that they would. I would prefer they be generally seen as bad things, but far from worthy of death by default.
>>98524743>Okay, so could you build a car right now then?it would be easier for me to build a car from first principles than it would be for nature to create a dragonif we allow nature to do the impossible and create a creature than can ignore the laws of physics then we could allow the god of machinery to create a BMW jsut because he felt like it because we are no longer using reality as the basis for anything
>>98524108oh, so basically you're a screeching snowflake with a value system that allows you to be offended by any little thing. shut the fuck up you dumb nerd
>>98522970>upper classThe bourgeoisie aren't technically upper class, they're plebs with delusions of grandeur. Essentially Dunning-Kruger, but at a societal level.>californiaThe Californication of the world will continue until Hadrian returns to finish the job.
>You're tired of everyone acting like the most obnoxious, subhuman type of fucking Californian stereotype in your fantasy settings OP>Heh, I bet you don't complain when there's potatoes, checkmate atheistLiterally small potatoes in comparison.
>>98523037Setting's internal consistency is important, but it also has very little to do with anacronisms.
>>98522970>pedo artist
>>98522970Slavery has been seen as immoral throughout history, even during the time periods DnD is based on (middle ages). In 1102 the church in England decreed, "Let no one dare hereafter to engage in the infamous business, prevalent in England, of selling men like animals…" (though worth noting that this wasn't a legal ban, this was a religious ban). >https://petelowmanresources.com/latest-slavery-and-the-bibles-attitude/Slavery was also much less common than one might expect before the advent of Capitalism and the chattel slave trade of the 15th and 16th century onwards. Slaves still existed, of course, but there wasn't the same kind of industrial slavery that you see in the history of the new world. The average peasant probably wouldn't have much of an opinion on slavery, since there's a good chance they had only seen a few slaves in their lifetime. But their immediate kneejerk reaction would likely be a moral objection, in the case where they haven't internalised the idea of slaves as a lesser kind of person.
>>98525218>judeo-shitlibs have been kvetching about slavery and oppression since they invented christianity>therefore it was always immoralFound the californian.Your own quote disproves your post btw.
>>98524279I think the problem anon , is that you don't accept genocide into your heart.I could see a lot of characters seeing slavery as kino , but then it alchemically transforms in context to be something different.you don't want to understand slavery on a deeper level and why we used to think it was ok , sometimes.the anacronism , spiritually and philosophically speaking is bigger than you think it is.
>>98525264also fantasy has a double side , which is that it not only has a side to what midlevval europe is , but it also has a side to what it should be.you can play around with it of course and I think slavery has a place in both sides , but its for different reasons , I would feel like its for different reasons , you can indid play around slavery by your interpretation.but is not the only way.
>>98524287I mean , maybe the wizard summons the platonic idea of a 2021 BMW 5 Series 530i.you are still kind of correct , I am just being an ass.
>>98522970D&D isn't anachronistic. It's not even set in the past or even implied to be medieval. Most of the popular D&D settings are technically post-post-apocalyptic worlds where adventurers gallivant around in the ruins of greater forebears
>>98524299most people think about their dragons , also dragons can just happen basically whenever , they are fantastical creatures , and those don't have logistics. they don't , they lizard.
>>98524108>This opinion may be considered highbrow, but this rampant escapism is infantile. It is the lowest common denominator of engaging with literature or roleplay. If you do not have the mental maturity to be able to handle works of fiction where evils like slavery are fundamental building blocks of society, then you are a legit subhuman.something can be evil and a fundamental block of society , you would think you would know that living in CURRENT YEAR , that sometimes people are inpotently cucked by evil.that being said , what about slavery actually being GOOD for its time and place , about it being cozy , maybe even holly. but we outgrew that type of slavery for another , this doesn't get rid of the fantastical older work of slavery though.what about that , I want to think like an optimisitic wizard.
>>98522970Yeah. It makes roleplay impossible, you're supposed to have the same masks as among normies and pretend you're happy for their compliance as they do for you. Every bit of honesty and virtue are cringe inducing (for our masks, inside we weep). It's just operation mockingbird expanding like it was built to do.
>>98525280Ice age was our apocalypse, and the Neolithic y-chromosome bottleneck was the earliest nwo type evil winning and ruining everything. >it's not anachronistic if everyone must think the same way and react the same too... Everyone has always been this way
>>98525280>technically post-post-apocalyptic worlds where adventurers gallivant around in the ruins of greater forebearsBronze Age CollapseFall of Rome
>>98524053>why would he know what the fuck aerodynamics areI mean , does he need to know to bluid?does knowing aerodynamics mean now you are better at forging than the forge god?
>>98524339>slave traders on fucking 4chanme
>>98524299>toneare you thinking anon , do you have any thoughts.
>>98524729>>A fire breathing flying lizard existing in a setting is unironically less of a logical leap than a modern car.>it actually breaks more rules than a car, since we objectively know a car works on realistic principles>wehreas a dragon could not exist regardless of any technological or evolutionary developmentsmagic is real anon , dragons are real.magic is reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal!and magic rules and makes the rules , that say to make a dragon. (the basic premise of a creation myth destroys your idea that it breaks any rules , unless you want to include modern cars into your creation myth , that is called being based.)
>>98524749this is a very stupid mentality.
>>98524108Haven't you read my post, retard-kun? I have nothing against slavery in TTRPGs, I just find it incredibly annoying when people go "Whaaah? The Forgotten Realms, the one setting written by Ed Greenwood, hippie extraordinaire, has slavery as a borderline objectively wrong thing done exclusively by stereotypical Thousand And One Nights sheikhs and evil red robed wizards? The shocker!"The rest of the settings on average are technologically and socially closer to the Renaissance, even if people are autistic about firearms, which meant that, compared to the real world, serfdom was relatively uncommon unless you were in some shithole like Russia. You can play mudcore slavery simulator, but don't be surprised if the fucking game with 200 pages for magical spells is high fantasy and looks down on that kind of stuff.
>>98525348Laws and money are illusion spells
>>98525258>>98525218anon didn't argue it was moral , it was just arguing it was mostly a nothing burgor.and it a world like fantasy were super slavery exists , an even nothing burgoror.this is still tecnically agreeing with OP kind of , but still.
>>98522970I think that some of (you) literally go out of your way to find tables full of onions drinkers.I've been GM'n games since I was like 14 (I'm 40 y/o now) and all my settings have racism, slavery, rape, monsters that eat humans and all that shit and my none of my players has ever complained about it, in fact I've been told a couple of times to go harder with the body horror because I was being tame
>>98525356
>>98522970>I understand is fantasy.No you don't.
>>98523801Moorcock wrote Elric and his culture to be the opposite of Conan, though.
>>98524158>it's a game of pretend involving intentionally whitewashed fantasy crapNTA, but i think the "intentionally whitewashed fantasy crap" is the entire point OP is complaining about. of course you wont care about one of those elements if you if you like and intentionally include as many as you can, but OP is asking for a game and setting without them
>>98524729have you considered that a car exists, and therefore is defined by the largest and strictest possible set of rules possible? it is made of industrial quantities of steel machined beyond the limits of any hand tool. someone had to make the graphite for the semi-metallic alloy break pads. someone drilled the oil, cracked it to a petroleum, bottled it and ships a full tank to the car semi-regularly. someone must be paving the roads it drives on, so someone is taking the bitchumen from that cracking tower. someone built the cracking tower somewhere. Someone wove the seat covers. Someone cast and vulcanized the rubber tires. Someone made the electric detonator for the airbags. a car is an endless list of rules that are broken infinitely and recursively just by it existing out of place. A dragon is just a big reptile. It might exist, and here it does, so what's the issue?
>>98525516He probably should look for them then rather than complaining about it, since they do exist, and bitching about it from a game like D&D is a rather large waste of time. Or just make his own.
>>98525541Anon, I hate to tell you this but you're thinking in terms of second order consequences to someone who is too arrogant and retarded to even have second thoughts.
>>98525360Then anon would have to demonstrate that slavery has been seen as immoral throughout history, not solely by a specific few groups of people throughout recent shitlib history (ie. christianity -> modernity).
>>98525684I mean just enough that hating it is resonable I guess.part of the problem is that OP plays with homo californias for some reason , so I do admit its very difficult to compromise.
>>98525684It's weird times we're living in, with Christianity, and a medieval take on Christianity, apparently not being conservative enough.
I don't get itA guy who thinks slavery is bad in a country that regularly trades in slaves would just be brushed off as a liberal instead of "HUHWHAAAAAAAAAT? YOU DON'T LIKE OUR CULTURE OF SLAVES? GUARDS, SEIZE THIS CLEAR OUTSIDER WHO IS SKIN WALKING AS A HUMAN. HE DOESN'T KNOW THAT SLAVERY IS NORMAL IN SLAVETOPIA!"
>>98525700I don't follow. Does Homer lament the concept of slavery? Does Hesiod? Does the Edda? Do the Vedas? Does Gilgamesh?>>98525716Anon, christianity is explicitly a radically progressive pseudo-egalitarian (but crypto-jewish-supremacist) movement created by self-described jews to cope with the loss of their temple (ie. their own traditional hierarchy) and subvert the traditional hierarchy of their enemies (all the kings of the gentiles shall serve israel etc etc).So-called conservative christians are merely tankies worried about the counter-revolutionaries.
>>98525747What counts as conservative to you, anon? Surely nothing invented after the radically reformative move to agriculture?
>>98525547technically speaking, op complained about literally every game except D&D. you should read more closely
>>98522970If people today would actually hate slavery, they would refuse to take loans that have interest on them. Second graders know to avoid them- so it's not like people don't know. People want to be enslaved by the worst scum they can imagine.
>>98522970The Golden Rule, OP
>>98525820OP’s a retard though
>>98523093>I can imagine former slaves [...] would also be pretty anti-slaveryIt really depends on the system of slavery in question. Historically, there were a few systems under which one of the main draws of freedom was being able to buy slaves of your own.
>>98525829>they would refuse to take loans that have interest on themThen they'd refuse to take loans at all. Without interest, loaning money at scale is economically nonviable.>but what about those Muslim loan and mortage thingsLiterally just interest presented in a different way. Sometimes even more predatory due to the structural differences.
>>98525756You're the one who brought up that term, anon. I've made no claims about capital c ConservatismTM, whatever that's supposed to mean.
>>98523093>I can imagine former slaves and the type of people who would be enslaved would also be pretty anti-slavery.You'd be wrong.West-African blacks caught and sold West-African blacks as slaves to non-blacks.Freed repatriated blacks immediately enslaved the local blacks in Liberia.
>>98525906Not everything every single person does is for immediate economic gratification (although this may be strange to hear if you're American). Jews (and muslims, although you may disagree there) have interest-free loans for in-group members. Hitler offered interest-free loans to Germans. People loan their friends and family money all the time.
>>98525991Brainfart.*People lend money to their friends and family all the time.
>>98525906>is economically nonviable.That's the point.Loaning at an interest is parasitism and slavery. Hence why it's stupid to take them. Some people take heroin or even worse drugs- it's the same thing. So many people want to die.
>>98525977You do realize that’s in the context of an imagined world and not the real one, right?
>>98523037Bad faith argument using an absolutist hyperbole.
>>98526061>Loaning at an interest is parasitism and slavery.
>>98526064The post uses broad categories like "former slaves" and verbs like "would", rather than "a former slave" and "could". Given that no fantastical conditions are applied, I am assuming that we're still following the basic rules of reality.
>>98526093No, it's actually the response to such.
>>98526438OP also said "setting following DnD", implying he means other ttrpg game settings aka imaginary worlds.
>>98526474Imaginary worlds follow the basics of reality unless specified otherwise. DnD horses are assumed to behave like ours. DnD slaves are assumed to behave like ours. Stop being weird.
>>98522970what kind of weirdo wants to get 4 players together and larp slavery. either you are ambivalent about it because its common place and it's not a big deal at all or your characters are upset by it and become criminals opposing it and it becomes a major focus. its just one of those things where it's very hard to make it syncratic with your setting without it becoming a nothingburger or distracting from the actual focus. most fantasy settings are not about confronting miserable things like slavery, genocide or even basic shit like war most of the time. even in modern dnd the enemies are usually "evil" creatures, racists, gods (and their cultists) not just run of the mill evil people. its an extremely common trope of not wanting to slaughter bandits to a man. modern fantasy uses shit like necromancy and demons to approach concepts like slavery fairly close while still being distant enough it can be lighthearted and fun. if the point is you find slavery really fun to around thats kind of weird but its your table if you find a group of real humans who want something really gritty like that there are settings for that, or even just homebrew it into existing ones. hell, Conan is pretty heavy on the slavery play that.
^gr8b8m8
>>98526513> DnD horses are assumed to behave like ours. They kinda don’t, judging by the lack of rules regarding their care and upkeep. >DnD slaves are assumed to behave like oursNot really, considering we’re throwing non-human sapients into the mix. Unless you’re arguing that we should just say all non-humans think like humans that it doesn’t matter.> Stop being weird.Yeah, stop being weird anon.
>>98526093Welcome to arguing on 4chan.
>>98522970>But really everyone needs to act like is upper class california?Those are the types of people that have taken over the DnD creative space anon.
>>98523787I reject on the grounds that I am the GM, and I can replace a playoid within minutes.
>>98523275Racialized slavery existed in the arab world for centuries before the Atlantic slave trade got started. Its the reason black/African is synomous with slave in north africa and the middle east
>>98527169NTA but adding to this, the word 'slave' itself is argued to come from the endonym for Slavs because they were so commonly enslaved.
>>98523243>>98523256>>98523278>>98523363How would you feel if you hadn't had breakfast this morning?
>>98525873bad sign if you read something written by a retard and it went over your head so badly that you needed me to explain it to you
>>98523787>it relies solely on the pathos of a car looking sillySufficient justification, GG no re
They hated him because he wanted to ensure historical accuracy.
>>98524749>for nature to create a dragonNo one tell this nigga about dinosaurs.
>>98527845So dragons and BMWs are okay in Historical Accuracy Land?
>>98523083New dark sun is removing mass slavery, there's a thread about it above this one.
>>98527783I'm doing intermittent fasting. I didn't have breakfast this morning and I'm used to it.
>>98526543what if I am a slavormancer.
>>98527845tarot is just a form of cardomancy one could argue the specific metaphysics could be considered anarcronistic , but the point still stands that cardomancy is common.also who the fuck uses tarot in dnd.is their a better system that has like tarot game mechanics or important lore about it.
>>98527783>retarded corpocuck pretending he has imagination
>>98522970Well, uh, you see, the thing about slavery is my DM is a fat guy and not a freaky goth chick, so I'm not interested in helping him with his bdsm fantasies.
>>98522970It's pretty evident from your post that you play with fags.The niggas I play with understand real sacrifice, absolute good, absolute evil. Traditional solutions instead of always trying to be quirky chungus (unless there's no traditional solution in sight, then you get creative) You just play with Americans, so you get America. A shitty, identity politics filled, sad sad placet. Nederlander G E K O L O N I S E E R D
>>98527845People hate you because you're an insufferable cunt.
>>98523561People travelled but not that often and yes, travelling for no discerning reason was considered very suspicious. I remember reading one historical account set in Britain where a policeman intervened cause a man was making his way through an English town and I think it was around the turn of century, Travelling "for fun' or "for the sake of it" is mostly a modern invention and even before that was reserved for the rich. Most people living in the country only travelled to market towns on regular basis, pilgrimages happened maybe several times in your lifetime if you were lucky.
>>98523022I am autistic so I don't care. >>98523055Check out my latest module for Guidos & Gorgons, Wogs of Waterdeep, on drivethru rpg now.
>>98523787your first problem is that you don't know what the word logic means
>>98526849>judging by the lack of rules regarding their care and upkeep.Just treat them like a Large creature
>>98527845Most of those things are cultural and would be perfectly plausible in some hypothetical other world even if various aspects of said other world resemble some period from our distant past.Zips & snaps / press-studs (as we call them in Bongistan) I agree with, though.They require a level of technology that would transform the setting completely.
>>98522970I'm firmly convinced all pro slavery OPs are made by the same fag year after year, day after day. You aren't slick about your fetish.
Whats worse, your players wanting to ERP at the table or wanting to whip slaves at the table
>>9853307590% of the time it's the same thing. That other 10% is made of edgelords, thus minors, thus not allowed at my table.
>>98533726You lost this discussion, cuck. See: >>98527866All the crybabies here are now proven wrong.
>>98533741Lost what? Can't ever mention slavery again because Wizards of the Coast released Whitewashed Toothless Product With Strong Black Women #5132? If I ever wanted to play Dark Sun it certainly wouldn't be with 5e. Some of us have actual taste. And actually play games. Retard.
Am i missing something? Why is everybody shitting on OP or being passive agressive and snarky with their disagreeing? He has a very reasonable point. Why does everyone in modern fantasy have to talk in reddit prose and have contemporary white liberal american values? Why can't anyone be homophobic or racist at least here and there sometimes unless they are Evil McBadguy type villains? I'm not asking for a fantasy version of the Turner Diaries bro it just would be cool and diverse to have more fantasy where characters actually act like they are from the Medieval era nowadays
>>98534797Because this fag constantly makes threads specifically about exalting slavery, often saying how it shouldn't be possible to oppose it in games because it's too big, how actually you're the bad guy for disrupting a system that works, how actually its worse to free slaves than to let them be enslaved because now they need a job, etc. It's the same thing over and over and over 99% of the time also with an obvious cropped porn/slavery related anime image.
>>98534824Ah of course, it's another schizo fag. My bad
>>98534797Fantasy heroes are the product of their time. Even Conan was surprisingly ok with women fighting.Characters feeling "medieval" are... rare as fuck, really, and wouldn't even make sense in your usual fantasy setting.
>>98523302Oh we have, you just delete or abandon your thread or report bomb it and then post it again because you lost.
>>98524073>If they made more, their lord basically just changed the rules and took all the new surplus and effectively left them where they startedTaxes in the Middle Ages were set by law and contract, and could not be changed easily (it was actually a major reason for the declining power of the aristocracy in the early modern era as their traditional income sources were outpaced). Unilateral attempts to change tax rates or expropriate property were a major cause of revolts and civil wars because doing so would impact the entire social order under feudalism because it meant you could not be trusted to honor the terms of any arrangement.
>>98534797OP here. Read the thread carefully. The people in favor are losers who support things like this >>98527866.
>>98534824>nooooooooooooooo you can have a slavery in your fantasy setting because otherwise slavers are going to feel bad!Go back to twitter, retarded IDpoltard tourist.
>>98534797We've been infiltrated by reddit, basically. I actually feel stuff like, you know, homophobia, racism and slavery are important to the verisimilitude of a world. Sand off all the rough edges, and you have nothing.
>>98534824To be honest, how invested is ANYONE in stopping slavery, really. Your average dude who grew up in that kind of setting wouldn't give a shit, he would think it was completely natural.Fucking Game of Thrones shows what happens when you try to dismantle a system like that without knowing what you're doing, it just plunges headlong into terrible carnage.
>>98534984You're the retard shitsloper for supporting a thread made by a fag that just makes the same thing over and over again dragging down the entire board with their trash.
>>98535026You don't belong here, puritan. If you don't like people questioning your ideas because you're a good little piece of shit who enjoys being validated at any moment, and who hates fantasy and imagination, you should be on reddit. Where you will have all the validation through bot upvotes that you want.
>>98535025>Fucking Game of Thrones shows
>>98534797I still stand by my belief that it's not THAT weird, at least in the context of either PCs or the people playing them. And I'll be happy to reiterate that as far as I'm concerned, it's not that big a deal because adventurers are usually depicted as being outside the cultural zeitgeist to begin with, and most normies playing the game will inevitably have some level of bleed of their irl values into their characters. It's one thing if all the NPCs are acting in the exact same way that takes the people out of the game. But players? Nah. Not really. That and, if I'm allowed to be a bit hyperbolic on my end, the kind of people that obsess over "medieval realism" are kind of pretentious cherrypicking jackasses anyways. Like medieval life was rough for the peasantry, sure, but they basically treat peasants as braindead disease riddled fuckups outright crawling around in the mud ala Monty Python. Which is just as unrealistic as sparkledog tier tieflings running about in broad daylight if we're frank.
>>98535036It's his fucking fetish, you retard. Do you support furfag threads just because they are contrary too?
Hilarious how Redditors are more angry about this decision about removing slavery in Dark Sun than the faggot likbtrooners that have decided to infest their nasty troon miasma in this place. Arguing that "I'm NOT gonna have slavery in my Dark Sun campaign!" has always been an option in Dark Sun for the last several decades. There was no point in removing slavery now to appease some ratshit looney bin internet socialist trannies, and that "Just because WOTC says there isn't doesn't mean you can't" is not a valid point and just means that there is no reason to play any edition of DnD or buy any material if nothing matters or nothing is concrete and everything is rule zero 100 page homebrew document calvinball.That being said, LMAOOOOOOO. Libtroons bitchfaggots are such massive fucking pussies, confirmed.Absolute bitchmade. Are you kidding me? Fantasy slavery has you cretins this much of a tizzy? Fuck out of my face, pussy loser.
>>98535073>DUDE EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS THE SAME PERSONNo, but seriously, you need to go back. Clearly it upsets you when you read something that doesn't align with your own opinion.>furfag threadsAre you fucking retarded, you fucking redditor? If someone makes a furfag question on /tg/ the correct way is to respond with a massive wall of text of plausible reasons why a furfag setting is possible. If you thought this was the place where you come to cry like a bitch because you got groomed by your discord boyfriend you're mistaken.
>>98534824Certain groups of people get really, really angry whenever you point out they're dedicated to stripping slavery out of every setting regardless of cost, consequence, consistency or common sense.It's the usual rigmarole of "Shut up chud, it's not happening but if it was it'd be a good thing and I'm going to laugh because thing you like it no longer for you because of me but it was also never for you because-" ect, ect, so on, so forth.
>>98535109Read above. Is a puritan cretin thinking the entire world is his safe space that must reflects whatever petty dictator delusions. I genuinely think that at this point the only solution is either execution these people or driven them out from every community. There's no solution to someone this deranged and pathetic.
>>98535100That's cause everyone knows they aren't removing it to appease their potential audience of 5.5e players since those fuckers already mangled 5e into the horrific abomination it is today to suit their needs for a ttrpg that's barely a ttrpg. It's completely performative jackassery like it's always been since bored soccer moms tried to ban the old AD&D books for satanism shit.
>>98535025>Your average dude who grew up in that kind of setting wouldn't give a shit, he would think it was completely natural.Then how did slavery become seen as a bad thing in real life?
>>98535103No, I have a problem with obvious spammed threads by the exact same guy who clearly has no interest in real discussion or even an answer at all if the thread topic is posed as one because no matter the substance or number of answers they always make a new thread asking the same question.Go and take your fanfic strawman and shove it, faggot.
>>98535163Because the good guys lost.
>>98535163What do you mean? The Middle East never stopped practicing slavery.
>>98535327>slavery is cool>pedophilia is cool>Middle East practices slavery and pedophilia>Middle East badExplain this, theists
>>98535275>obvious spammed threadsSpam is when many threads of the same, exact thing are on the catalog at the same time. Not that one time you saw a thread you didn't like and now you're going to cry everytime you see the same topic discussed because you're a colossal cocksucker.Stop crying. Just go back to whatever discord you came from. You clearly don't understand how imageboard works and are in dire need of a cock up your sissy, bitch ass.
>>98535565>nooo...stop noticing my low effort shitty threads that have been ongoing for years>pattern recognition? what's that? me being an obvious newfag whose never seen this spam, I must accuse him of being the one who doesn't belong!
>>98535666>2020>Literally 6, SIX FUCKING YEARS AGO!>Half A FUCKING DECADEYou're fucking mentally ill. You need a mental ward, a beating or getting raped. Maybe all 3.
>>98535678
>>98535678>You're fucking mentally ill>proceeds to mouth off like a psycho repeatedly at anything against this thread
>>98535692>More images from years agoI really hope more and more slavery threads appear in this board. Maybe you're going to deal with your problem getting raped by dogs so we can get rid of you.
>>98535718Is that what you're into? That's kinda gay bro
>>98535718>constantly talks about rape among other savage speakDo I even need to guess where you are from?
>>98534797No, he doesn't. If OP was just bemoaning the state of modern fantasy and asking for recommendations about things where people don't "talk in reddit prose and have contemporary white liberal american values", then this might be a worthwhile thread. OP's trying to make people feel guilty for having established groups and enjoyable games going on and focusing on those groups and games instead of worrying about other tables, though, and he's rejecting any sugestions about how he might improve his own situation because he's not looking for solutions.
>>98536280Fuck, I actually outright had a different thread that this one when I responded. In my defense, it's early morning here and I haven't had my coffee yet. Disregard my post. This thread's OP doesn't have a valid point either, really, but I'm not going to embarrass myself further my trying to make a post about it before I'm properly awake.
>>98536280why are you having a meltdown and inventing a story in your head because nobody wants to play your californian shitlib power fantasy bro?
>>98536306Read >>98536292. Your question was answered before you asked it.
>>98534797>Why is everybody shitting on OPHe began from an utterly asinine premise and is rightfully eating shit for it.
>>98534797>unless they are Evil McBadguy type villainsthey can't be those things even if they are evil, chud
>>98522970This is so strange. White people go out of their way to downplay the role slavery has in American history but remove it in fantasy and those same people are up in arms.
>>98522970Let's be real now. You have activist who don't care about the game, the lore, hell they don't care about history unless they can twist it into some gay, non-white, or make it "herstory." It's just to push some cause to prove they're a "good person." Though this is what happens when you let anyone speak and aren't allow to mock the shit out of them for saying the most retarded shit. We get fags in skirts trying to act like their cute little girls even though they have a fucking beard.I mean look at Dark Sun. They're "remaking it" but it doesn't look like Dark Sun it looks like every other fucking woke D&D art with maybe more blood allowed. (No slavery, no genocide, etc.) Still waiting for a "Dragon of Trump" or something.
>>98522970Nothing is anachronistic because it's my setting, I make the timeline, and I decide what goes where. If you want historical accuracy, go play a historical.
>>98534797>contemporary white liberal american valuesj*ws aren't white
>>98535043kek ikr
>>98536366>White people go out of their way to downplay the role slavery hasAre you retarded or just trolling? White people fought long-running wars to end the universally practiced custom of slavery, then allowed their children to be taught that they alone were uniquely evil for engaging in a practice that everyone engaged in.
>>98535692>>98535666based archive fag bringing the receipts
>>98536569American slavery was uniquely evil, its rarely gotten that bad anywhere in the world, and even then only on a smaller scale. maybe haiti was as savage, but british/dutch/american slavery was the pinnacle of industrialing human misery and creating narratives that presented it as a moral good. Spains hacienda system at least allowed for some form of existence of subjugated peoples even though the death tole was similar. That said learning about how based the Christian abolitionists and abolition terrorism and armed movements were in the early 1800s helped alleviate any white guilt I had. the problem, as always, was rich people. epsteins ancestors.
>>98535678I've noticed this massive faggot like 8 fucking times on the board, always whining about how nooooo muh players make characters who dun liek slavery!!!! That's not real roleplaying! Shut the fuck up.
>>98522970"anachronistic"Why do so many autistic faggots bitch about this irt fantasy? Your standard High Fantasy is (mostly) downstream from Victorian fairy tales and proto-fantasy, Tolkein and Weird Tales (And everything that followed). They were never "historically accurate" nor really trying to be. Victorian works in this vein were Romantic in character, very much so applying the values and virtues of their day to an idealized version of the Medieval, non-industrialized past. Tolkein does the same thing, the Shire is a early 20th century English village, the rest of Middle Earth is a mishmash of shit from Germanic tribes to peak Byzantium to other shit. And Weird Tales is far worse in this regard, Conan in specific has places which are basically Reconquista Spain and Ancient Judea and Rome and Viking Scandinavia and Seljuk Turkey and a lot of other shit all at the same time. Which obviously makes no sense, just about every system of these nations would look different if they were in one another's time period. People love to bemoan how there is "nothing medieval about modern fantasy" but there has not been anything truly medieval in a majority of fantasy for most of its existence. Modern fantasy is just doing the same thing Romantic proto-Fantasy or Tolkein did, just with the values and social structures of the modern Liberal Western world. And there ARE a million different ways to justify a superficially Medieval world not having slavery (some better than others). And I say all this as someone with an interest in history who rolls my eyes when settings remove slavery or whatever. There are ways to make this argument, but you are a retard who just wants to jack off to lolis being whipped. You should be shot. Nice mossacannibalis art tho
>>98523093My favorite character was a slaver.
>>98536661Fucking kikes man its all their fault. Anytime you see cartoonishly unbelievable levels of cruelty and misery they are right around the corner every single time
>>98536661>its rarely gotten that bad anywhere in the world11/10, got real mad for a moment.Yeah sure just ignore the aztecs, the eastern slave trade, literally everything relating to the Epstein files etc
>>98536682You're a terminally online tourist trying to push an agenda
>>98536714Wrong, I've been here since 2005. You are a huge, huge faggot.
>98536715You need to go back
>>98536661You could have just answered "retarded" and saved yourself the trouble.
>>98536661....... This is the most "tell us you know nothing of history past what your activist teacher told you without telling me you know nothing of history past what your activist teacher told you" I have ever seen
>>98536713>Yeah sure just ignore the aztecsnot the same anon , but aren't the aztecs closer to our current american industrial thing were some people make wars just to sacrifice lives to their dark gods.rather than something like slavery.
>>98536713>>98536821or I guess what mexico is still doing as well.
>>98522970Fantasy cannot be anachronistic because it's fantasy. I can understand what pisses you off to a degree, but I just want to point out that there's a counterargument to what you're saying: Fantasy is inherently not earth, and your problems with so-called "anachronisms" can be chalked up just as much to your own autistic sacred cows as actual flaws with the setting.No, not every fantasy setting needs to fit your retarded notions of what medieval Europe is supposed to be like. I don't like every fantasy setting being cosmopolitcan California either, but the reason I don't like it is because it's uncreative, rote bullshit. That doesn't mean I'm going to like your uncreative, rote bullshit either. I'm tired of not!medieval crapsack lands too.
>>98523037This image never made sense to me, since its never invoked for things that actually are confusing and wildly out of tone, like the old D&D adventure where your medieval adventurers find a crashed flying saucer.
>>98536713>>98536761>>98536810please give historical proof of a system of slavery that includes both>children of slaves are considered property of the owner of the parents (not capturing children for slavery like turkic Russian slavery)>animal husbandry is performed on humans with the intention to breed stupider and physically stronger humans>slave population over 2 million people
>>98523664Fantasy cars really are based. Ran a campaign with magic cars as a background element, players ended up with a Toyota Camry that had mythril tires that could drive on any surface (even 90 degree inclines) and a Trunk of Holding. Shit was cash, they did a drive-by on a giant shadow demon.
>>98523431A "wet wipe" could just be referencing a literal wet cloth rag you wipe your ass with, so it's only jarring if you actively choose to associate those two words with a brand name.
>>98523652>stride into the village in a full plate and expect not only the farmers, but the Local Lord® as well to treat you as nothing of consequence.Oh look another richfag doing that "holiday" madness cus he doesnt have enough troubles in his life
>>98536831>Fantasy is inherently not earthWho came up with this retarded anti-truism? Fantasy just means imagination. Beowulf kills fantastical opponents in the historical context of the Dark Ages. If he had pulled out a Glock or spoken Sumerian, it would have been anachronistic. The latter case would be less offensive than the former, since one could easier contrive a character having learned from the past rather than the future.
>>98523787Reminder that Dragons as fantasy depicts them are only unrelistic because of how absurdly resource-intensive a 6-limbed flying predator with a deadly chemical projectile is. Such a thing could evolve on a far more nutrient and habitat rich planet as a mega-fauna macropredator, essentially the same role we humans filled in the ice age, but Earth barely scratched the requirements for dragon evolution 65 million years ago and has only gone downhill since.
>>98536868>totally arbitrary requirementsThe Peugeot 206 is a totally unique vehicle different from all other cars! Please give historical proof of any other vehicle that includes:>being built in the 1990s>in a Peugeot factory>in a quantity over 8 million
>>98523991>you have your very humanity stripped away from you and are made an objectLole, lmao. Put the packages in the Amazon box wagie, I need my triple-ply toilet paper and hemmorhoid cream.
>>98524053>why the fuck would it look like a modern car?It wouldnt, it'd look like this
>>98536868>>children of slaves are considered property of the owner of the parents (not capturing children for slavery like turkic Russian slavery)>>animal husbandry is performed on humans with the intention to breed stupider and physically stronger humansIsn't this why Koreans are all fucked up psychos with flat cow teeth? 1500 years of slavery or someshit?
>>98537188Moving the goalposts.You and I both know that isn't what OP is talking about, he's talking about fantasy settings in general. Trying to weasel in historical fantasy as if that's what's being discussed just proves you don't have a leg to stand on.
>>98537228>1. We haven't heard complaints about anachronism, will check into it;>2. The complaints were indeed made, but only by nogame chuds;>3. Ok, the anachronisms do happen and the complainers do appear to play games, but their historical fantasy isn't fantasy;you are here>4. Ok, historical fantasy is fantasy, but our anachronisms are less unrealistic than dragons. Dragons can't even exist!>5. Ok, it isn't about realism, but look at other anachronisms that are worse than the ones I want to enforce!>6. Why do you even care about a wizard game for children? Are you some sort of pro-slavery fetishist?
>>98536698You're right on every count anon, too bad the unfortunately un-aborted OP is really not making an argument in good faith. I miss when people in this board actually could discuss this topic without making it into a shitfest, but unfortunately 2016 happened and all the people that joined afterwards weren't mauled by dogs during their childhood.
>>98525747>christianity is [50 buzzwords made up in the 1900s]i guess bro
>>98537307Meds, now.
>>98534984>being mad at slavery is idpoliticsi guess bro
>>98535026>You're the retard shitsloper for supporting a thread made by a fag that just makes the same thing over and over again dragging down the entire board with their trashNTA but puckee is pretty based ngl
>>98522970https://old.reddit.com/r/DarkSun/comments/1vrnoxp/new_dark_sun_interview/Man not even reddit likes it. Why are leftoids blamed for shit they dont' even do half the time. It is literally just gen xers trying to appeal to them that fuck things up
>>98537358Yeah imagine discussing christianity in anything but κοινή or אֲרָמִית.
https://i.4cdn.org/tg/1787228809328030s.jpgAnother manga/anime image op slavery thread, who could have guessed.
>>98527848Dinosaurs do not breathe fire. Dragons are not pterosaurs (which also happened to not be dinosaurs).
But we all agree enslaving goblins is not only ok, but completely moral, right?
>>98537307You forgot to add>Ok the whole thing is bullshit and I only added it for political reasons. And that's a good thing!
>>98537200report: goalpost successfully transferred, sir.
>>98537307Muh anachronism is always bullshit and you know it. People love to try pointing it out, to seem like a learned authority. It's verisimilitude of ignorance. Always going to bat only for a very specific interest of theirs while ignoring other things because it doesn't break the verisimilitude for them because they don't know enough about it.
>>98522970>redditatroonibalis
>>98522970>4chanasexoiballs
>>98537307>Are you some sort of pro-slavery fetishist?Well, are you?
>>98523405My fetishes aren't creepy, they're aristocratic and enlightened.
>>98538463>But we all agree enslaving goblins is not only ok, but completely moral, right?no you shoud always use alchemy to transform goblims into non goblins to always destroy the amount of goblins in the future. you can slave them for that porpuse , but not for more.
Those hating anachronisms would love Strinrath.
>>98522970I think your problem OP is that you want to justify slavery been seen as good because all the characters are retarded , even potencial Gods that should know more than us.instaid of saying that slavery can be based(as in based) in that context.
>>98540646I think it would be fun for that food anacronism if all the foods are their but they are magical in nature.you need spirits to get potatos that glow and slowly make you into a spirit.
>>98540650Slavery is good in any context.
>>98540674does that mean we shoud all be slaves?no exeptionsis this what cristianity was about
>>98536868my claim was that American slavery was unique in its cruelty, economic reality, and scale. This makes it uniquely evil. Saying American slavery is like other forms of less evil slavery is a false equivalence. It is factually correct to say American slavery is historically unique.Other forms of slavery have been as cruel, but not as large. Other forms of slavery have been as large, but not killed or displaced so many people. These are historical facts, even if they hurt your feelings. Slavery as a practice is indeed common throughout history, as is genocide and total war and other evil acts. Claiming all war is the same would also be lacking in major historical nuance, and I would expect fa/tg/uys to have a higher standard for understanding or else I will just call you a niggerfaggot retard. When it comes to OPs take on slavery, the slavery he is imagining in his head is probably Conan style slavery where barbarians capture defeated people's and have them push a big fantasy wheel, or the Athenian style of slavery where some slaves are killed arbitrarily by cruel masters and they have no political rights but at least half of them are living seminormal lives.
>>98537088I did a campaign with a magical wagon that was bigger on the inside than the outside. Such things are really convenient as a DM because any players that miss a session can be 'guarding the wagon'.
>>98540692obviously everyone should be slaves except me.
>>98540732No, even you or you're a hypocrite.
>>98540732I mean , you are a slave to your love of slavery so I think that is fine.
>>98523022>>98523779>>98532162I'm especially autistic and I do care
>>98540718>Claiming all war is the same would also be lacking in major historical nuanceThe Uyghurs alone fit all of your criteria. On top of that, China is using them for animal hybrid experiments and a living resource for forced organ harvesting.This is to say nothing of the Arab muslim slave trade (still ongoing), Indian hotel chains using slave labor in the US (still ongoing), or the massive international sex trafficking rings (of which Epstein was a middle-man) that still exist to this day.Your understanding of American history was informed by racial collectivists who 'we wuzzed' their way into creating a civil rights movement that specifically catered to their racial in-group, and specifically excluded things like the history of Irish slaves in America so that they could portray themselves as oppressed mary sues.
>>98540738And what's wrong with being a hypocrite? I'm White, so I'm allowed to.
>>98540784I agree with this. Some people just know better than others and deserve to be able to be hypocritical.
>>98540784>>98540885Hypocrisy just reveals a self serving dishonest nature. You cannot be moral if you are thus because your values are proven arbitrary and malleable.
>>98540885And by that you mean me, because I'm the only real person. The rest of you are just slaves.
>>98540891And? Morality is a spook, race science is the only TRVTH.
>>98540903Without morality you cannot be a human person but something pretending to be one.
>>98522970Male and female equality is a tough one to swallow
>>98523031Indentured servitude was big in America because a lot of poor people made the journey without paying the fare, and the ship master would sell his debt to some plantation owner once they arrived
>>98540949we can have physics ignoring creatures, we can have magic, we can have centuries long glowie conspiracies that date back to the founding of the citywe can have egalitarianism
>>98540949>>98540957It's pretty easy to suspend disbelief in a fantasy world where being slapped by a dragon miraculously doesn't kill or cripple a human instantly regardless of their armor or "level".
>>98523083>Have you tried not playing DnD?Historical inaccuracy's hardly unique to D&D, anon.There's games that include slavery (inevitably they also present slavery itself inaccurately) but immediately present the only correct and moral position as abolitionism.
>>98540957No
>>98540972Being slapped by a dragon's tail will break a Knight's bones. Dnd HP bloat isn't anachronistic, it's just retarded
>>98541012yes
>>98541024we accept that characters in games can withstand far more punishment than they can in real life because people like it when their characters are durableeither because it promotes the gameplay they like or because it shows progression from fragile to durable over timerocket tag systems exist, but opting into them is a matter of personal taste rather than some overwhelming need to simulate human durability, they just like one-shot kills
>>98540781Uyghurs are not slaves at all lmao, what. Is there a cultural genocide? Is there social stratification? Yes, obviously but not slavery. They aren't owned by the state or people and have freedom of movement.
>>98540781le false equivalence nigga has arrived
>>98540930insanely based
>>98541032True and real. A perfect simulation of real life via tabletop systems would be complete ass. The fun is in the abstraction. In real life 5 people would die to anything that people want to do in fantasy RPGs, and killing a dragon would be an affair that would require the resources of an entire kingdom or city state and probably professional monster hunting armies. If a dragon can smash an entire house you need a ballista or other siege weapon to kill it.
>>98541055people will just be extremely selective about what should and shouldnt be realistica dragon existing at all is inherently unrealistic, a giant reptile that can fly and breathe fire is just not going to happen without morphing the dragons physiology to such extremes that it wont even look like a dragonif you have dragons, you already made several concessions to non-realityit would be arbitrary at best to argue that certain other things must conform to our reality to the T while also allowing dragons to not be skinny match sticks that are 90% wing
>>98540930I'm not a Jew.
>>98541133And yet your beliefs and lack of morality position you as closer to one than your supposed race you claim to be.
>>98541152My bloodline are masters of the world. We deserve to have all of you to play with as we see fit and more. The only reason I'm not allowed to rape and kill you for sport is because the forces of righteousness were sadly defeated and the savior of mankind was forced to ascend to Paradise early.
>>98540781should that not mean that china are just doing evil anon , I think anon 2 just has specific standars.for example , maybe he thinks forcing a race to become pigmen is more evil than anything than the americans did.
>>98541168Entitlement, narcissism, hubris. Your words are those of one who deserves nothing for he has earned nothing by his own hand and merely claims participation trophies. At best a pale imitation of his betters whose name he taints and sullies with his mere existence.
>>98541168>>98541528larp larp larp sahur
Just for the record I'm completely happy with throwing the "master race" guy at the moralfagggot
>>98541535Use human words, faggot.
yeah, might as well just filter slavery. these threads are just lame, and wouldn't you see it there is already another one up in preparation for this one hitting bump limit.
>>98541574that's what the woke mob wants
>>98541565no
>>98541168Hitler was against evil and abuses. He was a sensitive artist who wanted the best for everyone. He even went vegetarian and made environmental protection laws. You can hunt Palestinians legally.
>>98540903Morality is not a spook. It's the deepest truth you hold. Just because psychopaths don't have it doesn't change anything- they're just without access to one aspect of reality, like blind, deaf or retarded people. Even Nietzsche could not withstand animal cruelty, and the best emperors of Rome were the moral ones - Augustine, Aurelius, Julius Caesar, Hadrian..
>>98540781>China is using them for animal hybrid experimentsIt's my personal theory that pigs are the result of earlier civilizations doing exactly this to their opponents.
>>98540949If magic equalizes women's combat prowess, men's necessary upliftment (to be balanced with women) would come in the form of sexualization. Big dicks, heavy androgyny, some sporting shemale bods. If women are given a combat boost then men are just ugly women.
>>98523500You might want to check how middle age arabs talked about blacks. It might be a good step to undo that NPC programming.
>>98541734or 1st century CE Hellenized Syrians>You wash the Ethiopian in vain; why not give up the task?>You will never manage to turn black night into day.or 6th century BCE Greeks>A man who bought an Ethiopian presumed that his black colour was due to the neglect of his former owner. Taking him home, he set to work scrubbing him down with soap. He tried every method of washing which he knew, to try and whiten him. But he could not alter his colour, and instead made himself ill with his exertions.The notion that everyone was a raceblind christian liberal before le ebil huwytes purchased a negro from another negro in the modern era is wild.
>>98540957>we can have physics ignoring creatures>we can have egalitarianismPleonasm.
>>98541766Those are just funny. Arabs compared blacks to something a human and animal.
>>98541769I know, I've read a few of them too. But clearly the 6th century BCE Aesop's fable might as well be referencing a black dog or black donkey. It's just being more humourous and poetic about it as you'd expect of a Greek, rather than the crudeness of Semitic writings.
>>98541769Nooooo, only we whites should win the oppression Olympics; we were the ones who called the blacks monkeys! I self-hate so I can wallow in our superiority while virtue-signalling!
>>98541769I believe the standard Arabic word for "Black Person" - "Abeed" literally just means "Slave".Though if they are not a Muslim then they are just a Kaffer, which is of course, always worse.Because in the Muslim world, there is nothing worse than not being Muslim.
>>98541768???
>>98540903One count false, one count true.Morality is just a social contract.And social contracts are real, because they are agreed upon, then enforced.A person who cannot live within the social contract of their society, can be put to death out of hand.
>>98541872I didn't get it either until I googled one word.You are on the internet y'know, shit-for-brains.
>>98541877>I didn't get it either until I googled one word.but its unrelated to the replya neoplasm just means a redundant sayingbut the reply was using a list of examples of ideas that are more outlandish than egalitarianism and yet are usually accepted without question to underline how arbitrary some exclusions areso there is no pleonasm involved
>>98541890Pleonasm.Neoplasm is some biology shit.And if I must dissect the joke;He was implying that egalitarianism defies physics.
>>98541897>He was implying that egalitarianism defies physics.wouldnt that be sociology, since nothing about egalitarianism would be related to energy?not that there is a sociological rule that prohibits that anyways
>>98541872>>98541890>>98541903>I'm dyslexic and retarded please helppost tits or gtfo
>>98541914meant for>>98541768
>>98541903>SociologySociology is a field fit only for the Jason Arday's of the world.It is just Applied Marxism; the qualification, it is not an investigative field, but a vehicle for profoundly mediocre people to frame ideological statements as inviolable social truths.When you get down to brass tacks, everything is physics.Including psychology, because your brain is a wad of electrons."No man is equal to any other, nor even himself on a better day" is the true observation that "egalitarians" cannot stand.
>>98541922we are veering into "chemistry is just applied physics" levels of schizo
>>98541926Wew lad.Let me explain that thing you just tried to dismiss out of hand.Biology is very fucking complicated chemistry, chemistry is very fucking complicated physics, and physics is very complicated maths.Fundamentally, everything can be boiled down to figures.But physics is the study of these figures quantified into forces and types of matter, then chemistry is the study of how these forces interact with each other, and biology is the study of how these chemical cocktails sometimes form into organic life.There, I have gone down, then up again.I don't care if you understand or not, it merely suffices that I have explained it.Good bye.
>>98541920>talk to the handI retract my comment, please don't post your tits as you are clearly deeply underage.
>>98541922>>98541947Based.
>>98527845The no wage laber is a 1800s myth that overstates how the feudal peasants lived.
>>98540891There are particular tiers of things in this world, anon.
>>98540784No you aren't.Calling yourself "White" is brown coded, because race is a THICK concept, that is far deeper than colour.A Frenchman and a Croat are the same colour, but they are different races."White" is an exonym for the most part, only self-applied by those who have already been thoroughly deracinated.Go be a fake chud somewhere else, you fag.
>>98545806>A Frenchman and a Croat are the same colour, but they are different races.they're both 100% white
>>98541922>"No man is equal to any other, nor even himself on a better day" is the true observation that "egalitarians" cannot stand.because you're not using equal the same way they are, they mean equal before the law, not equal in innate capability
>>98545867That conversation is about men and women having the same stats in a TTRPG, so that has nothing to do with the law.Equality under the law is also a lie though.
>>98523363I need a Woman like that
>>98522970>Muh anachronisms.Because DnD isn't historical medieval. Trying to pretend it is is retarded.It's in many ways alt-modern, just using magic in place of technology. Hence how every major city (depending on the specific setting ig) has; a guy who can bring back dead people, a mad wizard inventor, magic items of common nature to vastly improve QoL, and the chance to fast travel via teleport circles.Insisting on 'historic medieval authenticity' is fucking stupid. Also>ESL OP.
>>98546587That's a man.
>>98546635He didn't. Anachronism means "wrong time", not "failing to achieve historical medieval authenticity".
>>98545867The first respondent was correct, but also the notion that we are all "morally" equal, is a Christian derived idea based on us all being "made in the image of God".There isn't actually any secular argument for the same though.Some people have worse moral character, some people cannot be trusted to have the same interests or agendas, because they are outsiders, and some people place themselves outside of consideration by their selfish actions."Equality" in all it's forms, is just an ideal at best, and a vacuous lie at worst.
>>98547371racial equality is usually what people mean. its scientific fact different "races" of people are far more diverse in their own groups than humans are across all groups. There has never been any evidence of any race being stronger or smarter than another.
>>98547644Chap, could you tell me what exactly that means?Because I've heard that phrase repeated verbatim by people who claim to be citing "The Science", but they never actually have any argument for what that should mean.People A is people A, and people B is people B, you share most of your DNA with a fucking housefly also.Are you in the business of making excuses for the failings of other groups?Or analysing WHY they fail so consistently?That's a question you should ask yourself.
>>98547644This literally doesn't mean anything.
>>98547813Well yeah, but he has to realize that himself.
>>98547371rquality means everyone gets an equal chance, obviously you're not equal to a murderer if you've never murdered someone, but if you do murder someone you are now equal to a murderer, there is no original sin, everyone is equal in absence of their own choices
